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Tesla, Inc. logo
Tesla, Inc.
TSLA · US · NASDAQ
197.49
USD
-2.51
(1.27%)
Executives
Name Title Pay
Mr. Elon R. Musk Co-Founder, Technoking of Tesla, Chief Executive Officer & Director --
Mr. Turner Caldwell Engineering Manager --
Mr. Vaibhav Taneja Chief Financial Officer 278K
Mr. Peter Bannon Chip Architect --
Mr. Xiaotong Zhu Senior Vice President of Automotive 927K
Brian Scelfo Senior Director of Corporate Development --
Mr. Martin Viecha Vice President of Investor Relations --
Mr. Franz von Holzhausen Chief Designer --
Mr. John Walker Vice President of Sales - North America 122K
Mr. Rodney D. Westmoreland Jr. Director of Construction Management --
Insider Transactions
Date Name Title Acquisition Or Disposition Stock / Options # of Shares Price
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10612 23.17
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 22861 23.17
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 17616 216.721
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 2500 218.336
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 6763 219.334
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 5389 220.334
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 58795 23.17
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 19112 221.267
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 14726 222.517
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 258 223.472
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 44096 23.17
2024-07-25 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10612 23.17
2024-06-05 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2633 0
2024-06-06 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - S-Sale Common Stock 649.5 174.212
2024-06-05 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2633 0
2024-06-03 MURDOCH JAMES R director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 250020 21.31
2024-06-03 MURDOCH JAMES R director D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 250020 21.31
2024-05-06 DENHOLM ROBYN M director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 21878 23.17
2024-05-06 DENHOLM ROBYN M director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 47129 23.17
2024-05-06 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 53780 184.004
2024-05-06 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 24698 23.17
2024-05-06 DENHOLM ROBYN M director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 24698 23.17
2024-05-06 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 16839 185.046
2024-05-06 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 11281 186.362
2024-05-06 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 47129 23.17
2024-05-06 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 11805 187.057
2024-05-06 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 21878 23.17
2024-04-01 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 17.22
2024-04-01 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 17.22
2024-04-01 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 176.2
2024-03-12 DENHOLM ROBYN M director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 66206 23.17
2024-03-12 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 18068 173.055
2024-03-12 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 16206 173.956
2024-03-12 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 66206 23.17
2024-03-12 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 27499 23.17
2024-03-12 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 24653 175.164
2024-03-12 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 2859 175.841
2024-03-12 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 1619 176.808
2024-03-12 DENHOLM ROBYN M director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 27499 23.17
2024-03-12 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 30300 177.771
2024-03-05 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2633 0
2024-03-06 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - S-Sale Common Stock 687.25 177.106
2024-03-05 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2633 0
2024-02-29 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 17.22
2024-02-29 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 17.22
2024-02-29 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 204.17
2024-02-21 DENHOLM ROBYN M director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 93706 23.17
2024-02-21 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 93706 23.17
2024-02-21 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 56100 193.427
2024-02-21 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 10262 194.922
2024-02-21 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 5404 195.749
2024-02-21 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 7000 196.958
2024-02-21 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 11168 197.811
2024-02-21 DENHOLM ROBYN M director D - S-Sale Common Stock 3772 198.777
2024-01-31 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - G-Gift Common Stock 38160 0
2023-12-14 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 4000 18.22
2023-12-14 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 4000 18.22
2023-12-14 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 4000 250
2023-12-05 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2633 0
2023-12-06 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - S-Sale Common Stock 1049.25 244.343
2023-12-05 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2633 0
2023-12-05 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2586 0
2023-12-06 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 1298.5 244.343
2023-12-05 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2586 0
2023-12-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 388 0
2023-12-06 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 173.25 244.343
2023-12-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 388 0
2023-11-29 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 4000 18.22
2023-11-29 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 4000 18.22
2023-11-29 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 4000 250
2023-10-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 17.22
2023-10-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 17.22
2023-10-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 210.67
2023-10-06 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 4000 18.22
2023-10-06 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 4000 18.22
2023-10-06 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 4000 253.98
2023-09-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 17.22
2023-09-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 17.22
2023-09-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 244.32
2023-09-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 4000 18.22
2023-09-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 4000 18.22
2023-09-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 388 0
2023-09-06 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 176.75 249.622
2023-09-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 4000 250.018
2023-09-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 388 0
2023-09-05 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2633 0
2023-09-06 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - S-Sale Common Stock 1064.75 249.616
2023-09-05 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2633 0
2023-09-05 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2586 0
2023-09-06 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 1317.75 249.614
2023-09-05 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2586 0
2023-09-01 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - S-Sale Common Stock 2500 257.23
2023-08-28 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 17.22
2023-08-28 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 17.22
2023-08-28 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 242.53
2023-08-04 Taneja Vaibhav CFO and CAO D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 4000 18.22
2023-08-04 Taneja Vaibhav CFO and CAO A - M-Exempt Common Stock 4000 18.22
2023-08-04 Taneja Vaibhav CFO and CAO D - S-Sale Common Stock 4000 261
2023-08-04 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3750 261
2023-08-01 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - S-Sale Common Stock 2500 266.34
2023-07-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 17.22
2023-07-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 17.22
2023-07-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 268.23
2023-07-07 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 4000 18.22
2023-07-07 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 4000 18.22
2023-07-07 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 4000 278.36
2023-07-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3750 278.7
2023-07-03 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - S-Sale Common Stock 2500 276.35
2023-06-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 3810 17.22
2023-06-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 3810 17.22
2023-06-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 6690 20.91
2023-06-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 243.13
2023-06-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 6690 20.91
2023-06-14 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - S-Sale Common Stock 2500 260
2023-06-09 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 12000 18.22
2023-06-09 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 12000 18.22
2023-06-09 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 12000 250.037
2023-06-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 13500 0
2023-06-06 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 7403.25 215.508
2023-06-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2723 0
2023-06-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 648 0
2023-06-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3750 217.69
2023-06-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2723 0
2023-06-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 648 0
2023-06-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 13500 0
2023-06-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 6750 0
2023-06-06 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3181.25 215.508
2023-06-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 388 0
2023-06-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 388 0
2023-06-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 6750 0
2023-06-05 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2586 0
2023-06-06 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 1298.5 215.508
2023-06-05 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2586 0
2023-06-05 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2633 0
2023-06-06 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - S-Sale Common Stock 793.5 215.508
2023-06-05 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2633 0
2023-05-30 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 20.91
2023-05-30 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 200
2023-05-30 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 20.91
2023-05-16 Straubel Jeffrey B - 0 0
2023-05-19 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive A - A-Award Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 336285 180.14
2023-05-19 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive A - A-Award Incentive Stock Option (right to buy) 2775 180.14
2023-05-04 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3750.75 162.7
2023-04-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 20.91
2023-04-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 152.44
2023-04-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 20.91
2023-04-01 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - Common Stock 0 0
2023-04-01 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 486045 18.22
2023-04-01 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 155100 18.44
2023-04-01 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 295650 20.57
2023-04-01 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 616377 143.61
2023-04-01 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 373760 17.22
2023-04-01 Zhu Xiaotong SVP, Automotive D - Restricted Stock Unit 15798 0
2023-04-04 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3750 197.31
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director A - M-Exempt Common Stock 100000 24.73
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 8046 192.78
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 15186 193.921
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 37909 194.737
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 7410 195.639
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 9982 196.831
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 9588 197.912
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 600 198.733
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 5800 200.111
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 3379 200.991
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 2000 201.929
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - S-Sale Common Stock 100 202.64
2023-04-03 Musk Kimbal director D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 100000 24.73
2023-03-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 20.91
2023-03-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 194.36
2023-03-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 20.91
2023-03-08 Musk Elon CEO A - M-Exempt Common Stock 5250 6.67
2023-03-08 Musk Elon CEO A - M-Exempt Common Stock 5250 2.79
2023-03-08 Musk Elon CEO D - M-Exempt Non-Qualifed Stock Option (right to buy) 5250 2.79
2023-03-08 Musk Elon CEO D - M-Exempt Non-Qualifed Stock Option (right to buy) 5250 6.67
2022-12-31 Musk Elon CEO - 0 0
2023-03-05 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2586 0
2023-03-06 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 1298.5 195.789
2023-03-05 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2586 0
2023-03-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 13500 0
2023-03-06 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 6706 195.789
2023-03-06 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3749.25 198.39
2023-03-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2722 0
2023-03-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 645 0
2023-03-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 13500 0
2023-03-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2722 0
2023-03-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 645 0
2023-03-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 388 0
2023-03-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 6750 0
2023-03-06 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 2465.5 195.789
2023-03-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 6750 0
2023-03-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 388 0
2023-02-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 20.91
2023-02-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 202
2023-02-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 20.91
2022-12-31 Musk Elon CEO - 0 0
2023-02-06 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3750 193
2023-01-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 20.91
2023-01-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 162.5
2023-01-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 20.91
2023-01-04 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3752.25 109.31
2022-12-28 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 13350 18.44
2022-12-28 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Incentive Stock Option (right to buy) 13350 18.44
2022-12-28 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 13500 18.44
2022-12-28 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Incentive Stock Option (right to buy) 13500 18.44
2022-12-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 20.91
2022-12-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 10500 117.5
2022-12-27 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 20.91
2022-12-12 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 1820804 168.055
2022-12-12 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 1020447 168.929
2022-12-12 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 363749 169.976
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 235418 157.55
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 626066 158.51
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 702969 159.52
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 2294072 160.754
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 1868138 161.444
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 2208110 162.425
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 466672 163.546
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 234591 164.246
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 89471 165.728
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 380964 166.515
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 473518 167.587
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 240269 168.529
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 129795 169.449
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 148750 170.527
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 540935 171.682
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 378017 172.615
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 720996 173.586
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 135704 174.654
2022-12-13 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 45545 176.702
2022-12-14 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 615047 156.141
2022-12-14 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 1782089 156.952
2022-12-14 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 1157065 157.979
2022-12-14 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 1391103 158.93
2022-12-14 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 1309003 159.879
2022-12-14 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 568261 160.933
2022-12-14 Musk Elon CEO D - S-Sale Common Stock 47432 161.517
2022-12-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 6750 0
2022-12-06 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3767.75 178.073
2022-12-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 1091 0
2022-12-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 388 0
2022-12-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 6750 0
2022-12-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 388 0
2022-12-05 Taneja Vaibhav Chief Accounting Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 1091 0
2022-12-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 13500 0
2022-12-06 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 7583.75 178.074
2022-12-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2723 0
2022-12-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer A - M-Exempt Common Stock 648 0
2022-12-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - S-Sale Common Stock 3750 189.5
2022-12-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 13500 0
2022-12-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2723 0
2022-12-05 Kirkhorn Zachary Chief Financial Officer D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 648 0
2022-12-05 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 2583 0
2022-12-06 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - S-Sale Common Stock 1312.25 178.073
2022-12-05 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Restricted Stock Unit 2583 0
2022-11-28 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. A - M-Exempt Common Stock 10500 20.91
2022-11-28 Baglino Andrew D SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng. D - M-Exempt Non-Qualified Stock Option (right to buy) 10500 20.91
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Transcripts
Travis Axelrod:
Good afternoon, everyone and welcome to Tesla's Second Quarter 2024 Q&A Webcast. My name is Travis Axelrod, Head of Investor Relations and I’m joined today by Elon Musk, Vaibhav Taneja, and a number of other executives. Our Q2 results were announced at about 3.00 p.m. Central Time and the Update Deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please use the raise hand button to join the question queue. Before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you. So to recap, we saw large adoption exploration in EVs, and then a bit of a hangover as others struggle to make compelling EVs. So there are quite a few competing electric vehicles that have entered the market. And mostly they’ve not done well, but they’ve discounted their EVs very substantially, which has made it a bit more difficult for Tesla. We don’t see this as long-term issue, but really -- fairly short-term. And we still obviously firmly believe that EVs are best for customers and that the world is headed for a fully electrified transport, not just the cars, but also aircrafts and boats. Despite many challenges the Tesla team did a great job executing and we did achieve record quarterly revenues. Energy storage deployments reached an all-time high in Q2, leading to record profits for the energy business. And we are investing in many future projects, including AI training and inference and great deal of infrastructure to support future products. We won't get too much into the product roadmap here, because that is reserved for product announcement events. But we are on track to deliver a more affordable model in the first half of next year. The big -- really by far the biggest differentiator for Tesla is autonomy. In addition to that, we've scale economies and we're the most efficient electric vehicle producer in the world. So, this, anyway -- while others are pursuing different parts of the AI robotic stack, we are pursuing all of them. This allows for better cost control, more scale, quicker time to market, and a superior product, applying not to -- not just to autonomous vehicles, but to autonomous humanoid robots like Optimus. Regarding Full Self-Driving and Robotaxi, we've made a lot of progress with Full Self-Driving in Q2 and with version 12.5 beginning rollout, we think customers will experience a step change improvement in how well supervised full self-driving works. Version 12.5 has 5x the parameters of 12.4 and will finally merge the highway and city stacks. So the highway stack is still at this point is pretty old. So often the issues people encounter are on highway, but with 12.5, we are finally merged the two stacks. I still find that most people actually don't know how good the system is, and I would encourage anyone to understand the system better, to simply try it out and let the car drive you around. One of the things we're going to be doing just to make sure people actually understand the capabilities of the car is when delivering a new car and when picking up a car for service to just show people how to use it and just drive them around the block. Once people use it at all they tend to continue using it. So it's very compelling. And then this I think will be a massive demand driver, even unsupervised full self-driving will be a massive demand driver. And as we increase the miles between intervention, it will transition from supervised full self-driving to unsupervised full self-driving, and we can unlock massive potential in [V3] (ph). We postponed the sort of Robotaxi the sort of product unveil by a couple of months where it were -- it shifted to 10/10 to the 10th October -end because I wanted to make some important changes that I think would improve the vehicle -- sort of Robotaxi, the thing that we are -- the main thing that we are going to show and we are also going to show off a couple of other things. So moving it back a few months allowed us to improve the Robotaxi as well as add in a couple other things for the product unveil. We're also nearing completion of the South expansion of Giga Texas, which will house our largest training cluster to date. So it will be an incremental for 50,000 H100s plus 20,000 of our hardware 4 AI5 Tesla AI computer. With Optimus, Optimus is already performing tasks in our factory. And we expect to have Optimus production Version 1 in limited production starting early next year. This will be for Tesla consumption. It's just better for us to iron out the issues ourselves. But we expect to have several thousand Optimus robots produced and doing useful things by the end of next year in the Tesla factories. And then in 2026, ramping up production quite a bit, and at that point we'll be providing Optimus robots to outside customers. That will be Production Version 2 of Optimus. For the energy business, this is growing faster than anything else. This is -- we are really demand constrained rather than production constrained. So we are ramping up production in our U.S. factory as well as building the Megapack factory in China that should roughly double our output, maybe more than double -- maybe triple potentially. So in conclusion, we are super excited about the progress across the board. We are changing the energy system, how people move around, how people approach the economy. The undertaking is massive, but I think the future is incredibly bright. I really just can't emphasize just the importance of autonomy for the vehicle side and for Optimus. Although the numbers sound crazy, I think Tesla producing at volume with unsupervised FSD essentially enabling the fleet to operate like a giant autonomous fleet. And it takes the valuation, I think, to some pretty crazy number. ARK Invest thinks, on the order of $5 trillion, I think they are probably not wrong. And long-term Optimus, I think, it achieves a valuation several times that number. I want to thank the Tesla team for a strong execution and looking forward to exciting years ahead.
Travis Axelrod:
Great. Thank you very much, Elon, and Vaibhav has opening remarks as well.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Thanks. As Elon mentioned, the Tesla team rose to the occasion yet again and delivered on all fronts with some notable records. In addition to those records, we saw our automotive deliveries go sequentially. I would like to thank the entire Tesla team for their efforts in delivering a great quarter. On the auto business front, affordability remains a top of mind for customers, and in response in Q2, we offered attractive financing options to offset sustained high interest rates. These programs had an impact on revenue per unit in the quarter. These impacts will persist into Q3 as we have already launched similar programs. We are now offering extremely competitive financing rates in most parts of the world. This is the best time to buy a Tesla, I mean, if you are waiting on the sidelines, come out and get your car. We had a record quarter on regulatory credits, revenues, and as well. On net, our auto margins remained flat sequentially. It is important to note that the demand for regulatory credits is dependent on other OEMs plans for the kind of vehicles they are manufacturing and selling as well as changes in regulations. We pride ourselves to be the company with the most American-made cars and are continuing our journey to further localize our supply chain, not just in the U.S., but in Europe and China as well for the respective factories. As always, our focus is on providing the most compelling products at a reasonable price. We have stepped up our efforts to provide more trims that have estimated range of more than 300 miles on a single charge. We believe this, along with the expansion of our supercharging network, is the right strategy to combat range anxiety. Since the revision of FSD pricing in North America, we've seen production rates increase meaningfully and expect this to be a driver of vehicle sales as the feature set improves further. Cost per vehicle declined sequentially when we removed the impact of Cybertruck. While we are experiencing material costs trending down, note that there is latency on the cost side and such reductions would show up in the P&L when the vehicles built with these materials get delivered. Additionally, as we get into the second half of the year, it is important to note that we are still ramping Cybertruck and Model 3 and are also getting impacted by varying amounts of tariffs on both raw materials and finished goods. While our teams are working feverishly to offset these, unfortunately it may have an impact on the cost in the near-term. We previously talked about the potential of the energy business and now feel excited that the foundation that was laid over time is bearing the expected results. Energy storage deployments more than doubled with contribution not just from Megapack, but also Powerwall, resulting in record revenues and profit for the energy business. Energy storage backlog is strong. As discussed before, deployments will fluctuate from period to period with some quarters seeing large increases and others seeing a decline. Recognition of storage gigawatt hours is dependent on a variety of factors, including logistics timing as we send units from a single factory to markets across the world, customer readiness and in case of EPC projects on construction activities. Moving on to the other parts of the business, service and other gross profits also improved sequentially from the improvement in service utilization and growth in our collision repair business. The impact of our recent reorg is reflected in restructuring other - on the income statement. Just to level set, this was about $622 million of charge, which got recorded in the period. And I want people to remember that we've called it out separately on the financials. Sequentially, our operating expenses excluding surcharges reduced despite an increase in spend for AI-related activities and higher legal and other costs. On the CapEx front, while we saw a sequential decline in Q2, we still expect the year to be over $10 billion in CapEx as we increase our spend to bring a 50k GPU cluster online. This new cluster will immensely increase our capabilities to scale FSD and other AI initiatives. We reverted to positive free cash flow of $1.3 billion in Q2. This was despite restructuring payments being made in the quarter and we ended the quarter with over $30 billion of cash and investments. Once again, we've begun the journey towards the next phase for the company with the building blocks being placed. It will take some time, but will be a rewarding experience for everyone involved. Once again, I would like to thank the entire Tesla team for their efforts.
A - Travis Axelrod:
Great. Thank you very much, Vaibhav. Now let's go to investor questions. The first question is, what is the status on the Roadster?
Elon Musk:
With respect to Roadster, we've completed most of the engineering. And I think there's still some upgrades we want to make to it, but we expect to be in production with Roadster next year. It will be something special, like the whole thing [Indiscernible].
Travis Axelrod:
Fantastic. The next question is about timing of Robotaxi event, which we've already covered. So we'll go to the next question, when do you expect the first Robotaxi ride?
Elon Musk:
I guess that, that's really just a question of when can we expect the first -- or when can we do unsupervised full self-driving. It's difficult, obviously, my predictions on this have been overly optimistic in the past. So I mean, based on the current trend, it seems as though we should get miles between interventions to be high enough that -- to be far enough in excess of humans that you could do unsupervised possibly by the end of this year. I would be shocked if we cannot do it next year. So next year seems highly probable to me based on [quite simply] (ph) plus the points of the curve of miles between intervention. That trend exceeds humans for sure next year, so yes.
Travis Axelrod:
Thank you very much. Our third question is, the Cybertruck is an iconic product that wows everyone who sees it. Do you have plans to expand the cyber vehicle lineup to a cyber SUV or cyber van?
Elon Musk:
I think we want to limit product announcements to when we have a special -- specific product announcement event, rather than earnings calls.
Travis Axelrod:
Great, thank you. Our next question is, what is the current status of 4680 battery cell production and how is the ramp up progressing?
Lars Moravy:
Yes, 4680 production ramped strongly in Q2, delivering 51% more cells than Q1 while reducing COGS significantly. We currently produce more than 1,400 Cybertrucks of 4680 cells per week, and we'll continue to ramp output as we drive cost down further towards the cost parity target we set for the end of the year. We've built our first validation Cybertruck with dry cathode process made on our mass production equipment, which is a huge technical milestone and we're super proud of that. We're on track for production launch with dry cathode in Q4, and this will enable cell cost to be significantly below available alternatives, which was the original goal of the 4680 program.
Travis Axelrod:
Great. Thank you very much. The next question is any update on Dojo?
Elon Musk:
Yes, so Dojo, I should preface this by saying I'm incredibly impressed by NVIDIA's execution and the capability of their hardware. And what we are seeing is that the demand for NVIDIA hardware is so high that it's often difficult to get the GPUs. And there just seems this, I guess I'm quite concerned about actually being able to get state-of-the-art NVIDIA GPUs when we want them. And I think this therefore requires that we put a lot more effort on Dojo in order to have -- in order to ensure that we've got the training capability that we need. So we are going to double down on Dojo, and we do see a path to being competitive with NVIDIA with Dojo. And I think we kind of have no choice because the demand for NVIDIA is so high and the -- it's obviously their obligation essentially to raise the price of GPUs to whatever the market will bear, which is very high. So, I think we've really got to make Dojo work and we will.
Travis Axelrod:
Right. The next question is what type of accessories will be offered with Optimus?
Elon Musk:
There's -- Optimus is intended to be a generalized humanoid robot with a lot of intelligence. So it's like saying what kind of accessories will be offered with a human. It's just really intended to be able to be backward compatible with human tasks. So it would use any accessories that a human would use. Yes.
Travis Axelrod:
Thank you. The next question is, do you feel you're cheating people out of the joys of owning a Tesla by not advertising?
Elon Musk:
We are doing some advertising, so, want to say something?
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes, I would say something. Our fundamental belief is that we need to be providing the best products at a reasonable price to the consumers. Just to give you a fact, in U.S. alone in Q2, over two-thirds of our sales were to -- deliveries were to people who had never owned a Tesla before and which is encouraging. We've spent money on advertising and other awareness programs and we have adjusted our strategy. We're not saying no to advertising, but this is a dynamic play and we know that we have not exhausted all our options and therefore plan to keep adjusting, but in the latter half of this year as well.
Travis Axelrod:
Great. Thank you very much. The next question is on energy growth, which we already covered in opening remarks, so we'll move on to the next one. What is the updated timeline for Giga Mexico and what will be the primary vehicles produced initially?
Elon Musk:
Well, we currently are paused on Giga Mexico. I think we need to see just where things stand after the election. Trump has said that he will put heavy tariffs on vehicles produced in Mexico. So it doesn't make sense to invest a lot in Mexico if that is going to be the case. So we kind of need to see where the things play out politically. However, we are increasing capacity at our existing factories quite significantly. And I should say that the Cybertaxi or Robotaxi will be produced here at our headquarters at Giga Texas.
Travis Axelrod:
All right. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
And as well Optimus towards the end of next year for Optimus production Version 2, the high volume version of Optimus will also be produced here in Texas.
Travis Axelrod:
Great. Thank you. Just a couple more. Is Tesla still in talks with an OEM to license FSD?
Elon Musk:
There are a few major OEMs that have expressed interest in licensing Tesla full self-driving. And I suspect there will be more over time. But we can't comment on the details of those discussions.
Travis Axelrod:
All right. Thank you. And the last one, any updates on investing in xAI and integrating Grok into Tesla software?
Elon Musk:
I should say Tesla is learning quite a bit from xAI. It's been actually helpful in advancing full self-driving and in building up the new Tesla data center. With -- regarding investing in xAI, I think, we need to have a shareholder approval of any such investment. But I'm certainly supportive of that if shareholders are, the group -- probably, I think we need a vote on that. And I think there are opportunities to integrate Grok into Tesla's software, yes.
Travis Axelrod:
All right. Thanks very much. And now we will move on to analyst questions. The first question comes from Will Stein from Truist. Will, please go ahead and unmute yourself.
Will Stein:
Great. Thanks so much for taking my question. And this relates a little bit to the last one that was asked. Elon, I share your strong enthusiasm about AI and I recognize Tesla's opportunity to do some great things with the technology. But there are some concerns I have about Tesla's commercialization and that's what I'd like to ask about specifically. There were some news stories through the quarter that indicated that you redirected some AI compute systems that were destined for Tesla instead to xAI or perhaps it was to X, I'm not sure. And similarly, a few quarters ago, if you recall, I asked about your ability to hire engineers in this area, and you noted that there was a great desire for some of these engineers to work on projects that you were involved with, but some of them weren't at Tesla, they were instead at xAI or perhaps even X again. So the question is, when it comes to your capital investments, your AI R&D, your AI engineers, how do you make allocation decisions among these various ventures and how do you make Tesla owners comfortable that you're doing it in a way that really benefits them? Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Yes, I mean, I think you're referring to a very -- like an old article, regarding GPUs. I think that's like 6 or 7 months old. At Tesla, we had no place to try them on, so it would've been a waste of Tesla capital because we would just have to order H100 and have no place to try them on. So it was just -- there was -- this wasn't a, let's pick xAI of Tesla. There's -- there was no -- the Tesla data centers were full. There was no place to actually put them. The -- we've been working 24/7 to complete the South extension on the Tesla Giga factory in Texas. That South extension is what will house 50,000 H100s and we're beginning to move the H100 server racks into place there. But we really needed -- we needed that to complete physically. You can't just order compute -- order GPUs and turn them on, you need a data center, it's not possible. So I want to be clear, that was in Tesla's interest, not contrary to Tesla's interest. Does Tesla no good to have GPUs that it can't turn on. That South extension is able to take GPUs, which is really just this week. We are moving the GPUs in there and we'll bring them online. With regard to xAI, there are a few that only want to work on AGI. So what I was finding was that when trying to recruit people to Tesla, they were only interested in working on AGI and not on Tesla's specific problems and they want to start -- do a start-up. So it was a case of either they go to a start-up or -- and I am involved or they do a start-up and I am not involved. Those are the two choices. This wasn't they would come to Tesla. They were not going to come to Tesla under any circumstances. So, yes.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes, I mean, I would even add that AI is a broad spectrum and there are a lot of things which we are focused on full time driving as Tesla and also Optimus, but there's the other spectrum of AI which we're not working on, and that's the kind of work which other companies are trying to do in this case, xAI. So you have to keep that in mind that it's a broad spectrum. It's not just one specific thing.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And once again, I want to just repeat myself here. I tried to recruit them to Tesla, including to say like, you can work on AGI, I if you want and they refused. Only then was xAI created.
Will Stein:
I really appreciate that clarification. If I can ask one follow-up, it relates to the new vehicles that you're planning to introduce next year. I understand this is not the venue for product announcements, but when we think about the focus, I've heard on the one hand that the focus is on cost reduction. On the other hand, you also said that the Roadster would come out. Should we expect other maybe more limited variants like, similar to the cars that you make today, but with some changes or improvements or different, some other variability in the form factors. It should -- we expect that to be a significant part of the strategy in the next year or two?
Elon Musk:
I don't want to get into details of product announcements. And we have to be careful of the Osborne effect here. So, if you start announcing some great thing, it affects our near-term sales. We're going to make great products in future just like we have in the past, end of story.
Travis Axelrod:
Right. The next question comes from Ben Kallo from Baird. Ben, please go ahead and unmute yourself.
Ben Kallo:
Hi. Thanks for taking my question. When we think about revenue contribution and with energy growing so quickly and Optimus on the come, how do we think about the overall segments longer term? And then do you think that auto revenue will fall below 50% of your overall revenue? And then my follow-up is just on the last call you talked about, distributed compute on your new hardware. Could you just update us and talk a little bit more about that, the timeline for it and how you would reward customers for letting you use their compute power and their cars? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Yes, I mean, as I've said a few times, I think the long-term value of Optimus will exceed that of everything else that Tesla combined. So, it's simply -- just simply consider the usefulness utility of a humanoid robot that can do pretty much anything you ask of it. I think everyone on earth is going to want one. There's 8 billion people on earth, so it's 8 billion right there. Then you've got, all of the industrial uses, which is probably at least as much, if not way more. So I suspect that the long-term demand for general purpose humanoid robots is in excess of 20 billion units. And Tesla is -- that has the most advanced humanoid robot in the world, and is also very good at manufacturing, which these other companies are not. And we've got a lot of experience -- with the most experienced with the world leaders in real world AI. So we have all of the ingredients. I think we are unique in having all of the ingredients necessary for large scale, high utility, generalized humanoid robots. That's why my rough estimate long-term is in accordance with the ARK [ph] Invest analysis of market cap on the order of $5 trillion for -- maybe more for autonomous transport, and it's several times that number for general purpose humanoid robots. I mean, at that point, I'm not sure what money even means, but in the benign AI scenario, we are headed for an age of abundance where there is no shortage of goods and services. Anyone can have pretty much anything they want. It's a wild -- very wild future we're heading for.
Ben Kallo:
On the distributed compute?
Elon Musk:
Yes, distributed compute, that seems like a pretty obvious thing to do. I think the -- where this distributed compute becomes interesting is with our next generation Tesla AI truck, which is hardware viable or what we're calling AI5, which is -- from the standpoint of inference capability comparable toB200 -- and a bit of B200. And we are aiming to have that in production at the end of next year and scale production in '26. So it just seemed like if you've got -- even if you've got autonomous vehicles that are operating for 50 or 60 hours a week, there's a 168 hours in a week. So you have somewhere above I think a 100 [indiscernible] net computing. I think we need a better word than GPU because GPU means graph express in unit. So there's a 100 hours plus per week of AI compute, AI advanced compute from the fleet, from the vehicles and probably some percentage from the humanoid robots that it would make sense to do distributed inference. And if you're -- if there's a fleet of at some point a 100 million vehicles with AI5 and beyond, because you have AI 6 and 7 and whatnot, and there may be billions of humanoid robots that is just a staggering amount of inference compute or that could be used for general purposes at computing. It doesn't have to be used for, the humanoid robot or for the car. So I think, that's just -- that -- that's a pretty obvious thing to say, like, well, it's more useful than having to do nothing.
Travis Axelrod:
All right. Thank you. The next question comes from Alex Potter from Piper Alex. Alex, please go ahead and unmute yourself.
Alex Potter:
Perfect. Thanks. I wanted to ask a question on FSD licensing. You mentioned that in passing previously, was just wondering if you can elaborate maybe on the mechanics of how that would work. I guess presumably this would not be some sort of simple plug and play proposition that presumably an OEM would need, I don't know, several years to develop its own vehicle platform that's based on FSD. I imagine they would need to adopt Tesla's electrical architecture, compute, sensor stack. So I, correct me if I'm sort of misunderstanding this, but if you had a cooperative agreement of some kind with another OEM, then presumably it would take you several years before you'd be able to recognize licensing revenue from that agreement. Is that the right way to think about that?
Elon Musk:
Yes. The OEMs not real fast. There's not really a sensor suite, it's just cameras. But they would have to integrate our AI computer and have cameras with a 360 degree view. And at least the gateway, like the what talks to the internet, and communicates with the Tesla system, what that you need kind of a gateway computer too. So it's really gateway computer with the cellular and Wi-Fi connectivity, the Tesla AI computer, and seven cameras, or not cameras, again, a 360 degree view. But this will -- given the speed at which, the auto industry moves, it would be several years before you would see this in volume.
Alex Potter:
Okay, good. That's more or less what I expected. So then the follow-up here is, if you did sign an FSD licensing agreement with another automaker, when do you think you would disclose that? Would you do it right when you signed the agreement or only after that multiple years has passed and the vehicle is ready to be rolled out? think it depends on the OEM. I guess we'd be happy either way. Yes, it depends on, what kind of arrangement we enter into. A lot of those things are, we are not resolved yet, so we'll make that determination as and when we get to that point.
Elon Musk:
And the kind of deals that are obviously relevant are only if, some OEM is willing to do this in a million cars a year or something significant. It's not -- if it's like 10,000 or a 100,000 cars a year. We can just make that ourselves.
Travis Axelrod:
All right, thank you. The next question comes from Dan Levy from Barclays. Dan, please go ahead and unmute yourself.
Dan Levy:
Hi, good evening. Thanks for taking the questions. First, wanted to start with a question on Shanghai. You've leveraged Shanghai as an export center really due its low cost, and that makes sense. But maybe you can just give us a sense of, of how the strategy changes, if at all, given, the implementation of tariffs in Europe. Also to what extent, your import of batteries from China into the U.S., how that might change given the tariffs. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think I covered some part of it in my opening remarks, but just to give you a little bit more, just on the tariff side, the European authorities did sample certain other OEMs in the first round to establish the tariffs for cars being imported from China into Europe. While we were not picked up in our individual examination in the first round, they did pick us up in the second round. They visited our factory. They -- we worked with them, provided them all the information. As a result, we were adjusting our import strategy out of China into Europe. But -- and one other thing to note is in Q2 itself, we started building right hand from model wise out of Berlin and we also delivered it in U.K. And we're adjusting as needed, but we will keep adjust. We're still importing Model 3s into Europe, out of Shanghai. And we are still evaluating what is the best alternate manage all this just on the examination by the European authorities. Like I said, we cooperated with them. Well, we are confident that they, we should get a better rate than what they have imposed for now. But this is literally evolving and we are adjusting as fast as we can with this. It is -- I would also add that, because of this, you've seen the impact that Berlin is doing more imports into places like Taiwan as well as, U.K I just mentioned. So it will keep changing and we will keep adapting as we go about it.
Dan Levy:
Great. Thanks. Yes, thank you. As a follow-up, wanted to ask about the Robotaxi strategy and specifically the shareholder deck here notes that the release is going to be -- one of the gating factors is regulatory approval. So maybe you could help us understand which regulations specifically are the ones that we should be looking for? Is it FMVSS, that's standard? And then to what extent does the strategy shift? You've done with FSD more of a nationwide, no boundary approach. Is the Robotaxi approach one that's more geofenced, so to speak, and is more driven by a state by state approach?
Elon Musk:
I mean, our solution is a generalized solution like what everybody else has. They, if you see like Waymo has one of it, they have a very localized solution that requires high density mapping. It's not -- it's quite fragile. So, their ability to expand rapidly is limited. Our solution is a general solution that works anywhere. It would even work on a different earth. So if you're rendered a new Earth, it would work on a new earth. So it's -- there's this capability I think in our experience, once we demonstrate that something is safe enough or significantly safer than human. We are fine that regulators are supportive of deploying deployment of that capability. It's difficult to argue with if you -- if you've got a large number of -- yes, if you've got billions of miles that show that in the future unsupervised FSD is safer than human. What regulator could really stand in the way of that? They would -- they're morally obligated to approve. So I don't think regulatory approval will be a limiting factor. I should also say that the self-driving capabilities of this are deployed outside of North America are far behind that in, in North America. So with the -- with Version 12.5, and maybe a 12.6, but pretty soon we will ask for regular regulatory approval of the Tesla supervised FSD in Europe, China, and other countries. And I, I think we're likely to receive that before the end of the year, which will be a helpful demand driver in those regions obviously.
Travis Axelrod:
Thank you. Just to …
Elon Musk:
Go ahead, Travis.
Travis Axelrod:
In terms of like, as Elon said, in terms of regulatory approval, the vehicles are governed by FMVSS in U.S., which is the same across all 50 states. The road rules are the same across all 50 states. So creating a generalized solution gives us the best opportunity to deploy in all 50 states, reasonably. Of course there are state and even local and municipal level regulations that may apply to, being a transportation company or deploying taxes. But as far as getting the vehicle on the road, that's all federal and that's very much in line with what you was just suggesting about the data and the vehicle itself.
Vaibhav Taneja:
And to add to the technology point, the end-to-end network basically makes no assumption about the location. Like you could add data from different countries and it just like perform equally well there, just like almost like close to zero US specific, um, code in there. It's all just the data that comes from the U.S
Elon Musk:
Yes. To, to that end of the show, it's like, we can go as humans to other countries and drive with some reasonable amount of assessment in those countries. And that's how you design the FSC software. Yes, exactly.
Travis Axelrod:
Great. Thanks guys. The next question comes from George from Canaccord. George, please go ahead and unmute yourself.
George Gianarikas:
Hi, everyone. Thank you for taking my questions. Maybe just to expand on the regulatory question for a second. And I could be comparing apples and oranges, but GM canceled their pedal less, wheel less vehicle. And according to the company this morning, their decision was driven by uncertainty about the regulatory environment. And from what we understand, and again, maybe I'm wrong here, but the Robotaxi that has been shown at least in images of the public is also pedal less and wheel less. Is there a different regulatory concern just if you deploy a vehicle like that that doesn't have pedal -- pedals or a wheel, and that may not be different from just regular FSD on a traditional Tesla vehicle. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Well, obviously the real reason that they cancel it is because GM can't make it work, not because the regulators, they're blaming regulators. That's misleading of them to do so, because Waymo is doing just fine in those markets. So it's just that their technology is not far.
George Gianarikas:
Right. And maybe just as a follow-up, I think you mentioned, that FSD take rates were up materially after you reduced the price. Is there any way you can help us quantify what that means Exactly? Thank you.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes, we shared the [indiscernible] that there we've seen a meaningful increase. I don't want to get into specific because we started from a low base and -- but we are seeing encouraging results. And the key thing here is, like Elon said, you need to experience it because words can't describe it till the time we actually use it. And that's why we are trying to make sure that every time a car is getting delivered, people are being showed how this thing is working because when you see it working, you realize how great it is. I mean, just to give you one example, so again, there's a bias example, but I have a more than 20 mile commute into the factory almost every day. I have zero interventions on the latest stack, and the card just literally drives me over. And especially with the latest version wherein, we are also tracking your eye movement, the steering wheel lag is almost not there as long as you're not wearing sunglasses.
Elon Musk:
Well, we are fixing the sunglasses thing. It's coming soon. So you will be able to drive -- you'll be able to have sunglasses on and have the car drive.
George Gianarikas:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
So -- but there's number of times I've talked with smart people who like live in New York or maybe downtown Boston and don't ever drive and then ask me about FSD, I'm like, you can just get a car and try it. And if you're not doing that, you have no idea what's going on.
Travis Axelrod:
Thank you. The next question comes from Pierre from New Street. Pierre, please unmute yourself.
Ferragu Pierre:
Hey, guys. Thank you for taking my question. So it's on Robotaxi again, and I completely get it that with a universal solution, we will get like regulatory approval, we'll get there eventually clicking up miles and compute, et cetera. And my question is more, how you think about deployments, because I'm still like, I'm thinking once you have a car that can drive everywhere, that can replace me, it can replace a taxi, but then to do the right hailing service, you need a certain scale. And that means a lot of cars on the road and so you need an infrastructure to just maintain the cars, take care of them, et cetera. And so my question is, are you already working on that? Do you have already an idea of what, like your plan to deploy looks like? And is that like a test Tesla only plan or are you looking at partners, local partners, global partners to do that? And I'll have a quick follow-up.
Elon Musk:
Yes. This would just be the Tesla network. You just literally open the Tesla app and summon a car and resend a car to pick you up and take you somewhere. And you can -- our -- we'll have a fleet that's I don't know, on order of 7 million dedicated global autonomy soon. In the years come it'll be over 10 million, then over 20 million. This is immense scale. And the car is able to operate 24/7, unlike the human driver. So, the capability to -- like, if there's this basically instant scale with a software update. And now this is for a customer on fleet. So you can think of that as being a bit like Airbnb, like you can choose to allow your car to be used by the fleet, or cancel that and bring it back. It can be used by the fleet all the time. It can be used by the fleet some of the time, and then Tesla would take -- would share on the revenue with the customer. But you can think of the giant fleet of Tesla vehicles as like a giant sort of Airbnb equivalent fleet, Airbnb on wheels. The -- I mean, then in addition we would make some number of cars for Tesla that would just be owned by Tesla and be added to the fleet. I guess that would be a bit more like Uber. But this would all be a Tesla network. And there's an important clause we've put in, in every Tesla purchase, which is that the Tesla vehicles can only be used in the Tesla fleet. They cannot be used by a third-party for autonomy.
Ferragu Pierre:
Okay. And do you think that scale is like progressively so you can start in a city with just a handful of cars and you grow the number of cars over time? Or do you think there is like a critical mass you need to get to, to be able to offer like a service that is of competitive quality compared to what like the -- like Uber would be typically delivering already?
Elon Musk:
I guess I'm not -- maybe I'm not conveying this correctly. The entire Tesla fleet basically becomes active. This is obviously maybe there's some number of people who don't want their car to own money, but I think most people will. It's instant scale.
Travis Axelrod:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Colin from Oppenheimer. Colin, please unmute yourself.
Colin Rusch:
Sorry about that guys. I've got two questions around energy storage. With the tight supply and the stationary storage, can you talk about your pricing strategy and how you're thinking about saturation and given geographies given that some of these larger systems are starting to shift wholesale power markets in a pretty meaningful way quickly?
Vaibhav Taneja:
So, I mean, we are working with a large set of players in the market and our pipeline is actually pretty long. And there's actually very -- there's actually long end in terms of where you enter into a contract where delivery started -- starts happening. And so far we have good pricing leverage. And now Mike, chime in on this too.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes, I mean there's a lot of competition from Chinese OEMs just like there is in the vehicle space. So we're in close contact with our customers and making sure that we're remaining competitive in where they're needing to be competitive to, to secure contracts to sell power and energy in the markets. We had a really strong contracting quarter and continue to build our backlog for 2025 and 2026. So we feel pretty good about where we are in the market. We realize that competition is strong, but we have a pretty strong value proposition with offering a fully integrated product with our own power electronics and site level controls. So …
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes, and again, the aspect which people miss do not fully understand is that there's also a whole software stack, which comes with from Megapack, right? And that is a unique proposition which we -- which is only available to us, and we are using it with other stuff too, but that gives us a much more of an edge as compared to the competition.
Elon Musk:
Yes, we find customers that they can sort of put together a hodgepodge solution. And so, and then sometimes they'll pick that solution, and then that doesn't work. And then they come back to us.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes, and we're not really seeing saturation for like, on a global scale. There's little pockets of saturation in different markets, but we're more seeing that there's markets opening up given demand on the grid just continues to increase more than anyone expects. So that just opens up markets, really across the world in different pockets.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes, I mean just even on the AI computer side, right? These GPUs are really powerful already and the amount of new pipeline, which we're getting for people for data center backup and things like that is increasing at a pretty large scale.
Colin Rusch:
Yes. Thanks. And then the follow-up here is 4680 process technology and the role to role process. There's some news around your equipment suppliers. Can you talk about how far along you are in, in potentially qualifying an incremental supplier around some of that, those critical process technology steps?
Lars Moravy:
Yes, I can talk about that. As you're probably referring to the lawsuit that we have with one of our suppliers, look, I don't think this is going to affect our ability to roll out 4680. We have very strong IP position in the technology and the majority of the equipment that we use is in-house designed and some of it's in-house build. And so we can take our IP stack and have someone else build it if we need to. So it's, that's not really a concern right now.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I, I think people don't understand just how much demand there will be for grid storage. They really just like the [indiscernible] I think are underestimating this demand by probably orders magnitude. So that the actual energy, total energy output of, say the U.S grid is if the power plants can operate a steady state is at least two to three times, the amount of energy it currently produces, because there are a huge gap. There's a huge difference in the -- from peak to trough in terms of energy of power generation. So in order for a grid to not have blackouts, it must be able to support the load at the worst minute of the worst day of the year, the coldest or hottest day, which means that for the rest of the time, the rest of the year, it's got massive excess power generation capability, but it has no way to store that energy. Once you add battery packs, you can now run the power plants at steady state. Steady state means that basically any given grid anywhere in the world can produce in terms of cumulative energy in the course of the year, at least twice what it is currently producing in some cases, maybe three times.
Travis Axelrod:
All right. Thank you, Elon. The next question comes from Colin Langan from Wells Fargo. Colin, please unmute yourself.
Colin Langan:
Oh, great. Thanks for taking my questions. Do you hear me?
Travis Axelrod:
Yes.
Colin Langan:
Yes. Sorry. I guess when we are going to ask, if Trump wins, there's a higher chance that IRA could get cut. I think Elon, you had commented online that Tesla doesn't survive on EV subsidies. But when Tesla lose a lot of support if IRA goes away? I think model Y3 and Y get IRA help for customers, and I think your batteries get production tax credits. So, just one, can you clarify if the end, if IRA ends, would it be a negative for your profitability in the near-term? Why might it not be a negative? And then, any framing of the current support you get, IRA-related?
Elon Musk:
I guess that there would be like some impact, but I think it would be devastating for our competitors. But -- and it would hurt Tesla slightly. But long-term probably actually helps Tesla would be my guess. Yes -- but I've said this before on earnings calls, it -- the value of Tesla overwhelmingly is autonomy. These other things are in the noise relative to autonomy. So I recommend anyone who doesn't believe that Tesla will solve vehicle autonomy should not hold Tesla stock. They should sell their Tesla stock. You should believe Tesla will solve autonomy, you should buy Tesla stock. And all these other questions are in the noise.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes, I mean, I'll add this just to clarify a few things that -- at the end of the day, when we are looking at our business, we've always been looking at it whether or not IRA is there and we want our business to grow healthy without having any subsidies coming in, whichever way you look at it. And that's the way we have always modeled everything. And that is the way internally also even when we are looking at battery costs, yes, I --, there are manufacturing credits which we get, but we always drive ourselves to say, okay, what if there is no higher benefit and how do we operate in that kind of an environment? And like Elon said, we definitely have a big advantage as compared to a competition on that front. We've delivered it and you can see it in the numbers over the years. Like, so there is you cannot ignore the fundamental size of the business. And then on top of it, once you add autonomy to it, like even said, it becomes meaningless to you think about the short-term.
Travis Axelrod:
Okay. I think that's unfortunately all the time we have for today. We appreciate all of your questions. We look forward to talking to you next quarter. Thank you very much and goodbye.
Elon Musk:
That's excellent.
Martin Viecha:
Tesla's First Quarter 2024 Q&A Webcast. My name is Martin Viecha, VP of Investor Relations, and I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Vaibhav Taneja, and a number of other executives. Our Q1 results were announced at about 3.00 p.m. Central Time in the Update Deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events and results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please use the raise hand button to join the question queue. But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thanks, Martin. So to recap in Q1 we navigated several unforeseen challenges as well as the ramp of the updated Model 3 in Fremont. There was, as we all have seen, the EV adoption rate globally is under pressure and a lot of other auto manufacturers are pulling back on EVs and pursuing plug-in hybrids instead. We believe this is not the right strategy and electric vehicles will ultimately dominate the market. Despite these challenges, the Tesla team did a great job executing in a tough environment and energy storage deployments, the Megapack in particular, reached an all time high in Q1, leading to record profitability for the energy business, and that looks likely to continue to increase in the quarters and years ahead. It will increase. We actually know that it will, so significantly faster than the car business as we expected. We also continue to expand our AI training capacity in Q1, more than doubling our training compute sequentially. In terms of the new product roadmap, there has been a lot of talk about our upcoming vehicle line in the next – in the past several weeks. We've updated our future vehicle lineup to accelerate the launch of new models ahead, previously mentioned startup production in the second half of 2025, so we expect it to be more like the early 2025, if not late this year. These new vehicles, including more affordable models, will use aspects of the next generation platform as well as aspects of our current platforms, and will be able to produce on the same manufacturing lines as our current vehicle lineup. So it's not contingent on any new factory or massive new production line. It'll be made on our current production lines much more efficiently. And we think this should allow us to get to over 3 million vehicles of capacity when realized to the full extent. Regarding FSD Version 12, which is the pure AI-based self-driving, if you haven't experienced this, I strongly urge you to try it out. It's profound and the rate of improvement is rapid so – and we've now turned that on for all cars with the cameras and inference computer and everything from Hardware 3 on in North America. And so it's been pushed out to, I think, around 1.8 million vehicles and we're seeing about half of people use it so far and that percentage is increasing with each passing week. So we now have over 300 billion miles that have been driven with FSD V12. Since the launch of full self-driving, supervised full self-driving, it's become very clear that the vision-based approach with end to end neural networks is the right solution for scalable autonomy. It's really how humans drive. Our entire road network is designed for biological neural nets and eyes. So naturally cameras and digital neural nets are the solution to our current road system. To make it more accessible, we've reduced the subscription price to $99 a month, so it's easy to try out. And as we've announced, we'll be showcasing our purpose-built robotaxi, or Cybercab, in August. Yes. Regarding AI compute, over the past few months, we've been actively working on expanding Tesla's core AI infrastructure. For a while there, we were training constrained in our progress. We are, at this point, no longer training constrained and so we're making rapid progress. We've installed and commissioned, meaning they're actually working 35,000 H100 computers or GPUs, GPU is wrong word, they need a new word. I always feel like a wince when I say GPU because it's not – GPU stands – G stands for graphics, and it doesn't do graphics. But anyway roughly 35,000 H100s are active, and we expect that to be probably 85,000 or thereabouts by the end of this year and training, just for training. We are making sure that we're being as efficient as possible in our training. It's not just about the number of H100s, but how efficiently they're used. So in conclusion, we're super excited about our autonomy road map. I think it should be obvious to anyone who's driving Version 12 and it tells that that it is only a matter of time before we exceed the reliability of humans and not much time with that. And we're really headed for an electric vehicle, an autonomous future. And I'll go back to something I said several years ago that in the future, gasoline cars that are not autonomous will be like riding a horse and using a flip phone. And that will become very obvious in hindsight. We continue to make the necessary investments that will drive growth and profits for Tesla in the future, and I wanted to thank the Tesla team for incredible execution during this period and look forward to everything that we have planned ahead. Thanks.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much, and Vaibhav has some comments as well.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Thanks. It's important to acknowledge what Elon said, from our auto business perspective. We did see a seasonal decline in revenues quarter-over-quarter and those were primarily because of seasonality, uncertain macroeconomic environment and the other reasons, which Elon had mentioned earlier. Auto margins declined from 18.9% to 18.5%. Excluding the impact of Cybertruck, the impact of pricing actions was largely offset by reductions in per unit costs and the recognition of revenue from Autopark feature for certain vehicles in the U.S. that previously did not have that functionality. Additionally, while we did experience higher cost due to the ramp of Model 3 in Fremont and disruptions in Berlin, these costs were largely offset by cost reduction initiatives. In fact, if we exclude Cybertruck and Fremont Model 3 ramp costs, the revenue from Autopark, auto margins improved slightly. Currently normalized Model Y cost per vehicle in Austin and Berlin are already very close to that of Fremont. Our ability to reduce costs without sacrificing on quality was due to the amazing efforts of the team, in executing Tesla's relentless pursuit of efficiency across the business. We've also witnessed that as other OEMs are pulling back on their investments in EV, there is increasing appetite for credits, and that means a steady stream of revenue for us. Obviously, seeing others pull back from EV is not the future we want. We would prefer it the whole industry went all in. On the demand front, we've undertaken a variety of initiatives, including lowering the price of both the purchase and subscription options for FSD launching extremely attractive leasing specials for the Model 3 in the U.S. for $299 a month and offering attractive financing options in certain markets. We believe that our awareness activities, paired with attractive financing, will go a long way in expanding our reach and driving demand for our products. Our Energy business continues to make meaningful progress with margins reaching a record of 24.6%. We expect the energy storage deployments for 2024 to grow at least 75% higher from 2023. And accordingly, this business will begin contributing significantly to our overall profitability. Note that there is a bit of lumpiness in our storage deployments due to a variety of factors that are outside of our control, so deployments may fluctuate quarter-over-quarter. On the operating expense front, we saw a sequential increase from our AI initiatives, continued investment in future projects, marketing and other activities. We had negative free cash flow of $2.5 billion in the first quarter. The primary driver of this was an increase in inventory from a mismatch between builds and deliveries as discussed before, and our elevated spend on CapEx across various initiatives, including AI compute. We expect the inventory build to reverse in the second quarter and free cash flow to return to positive again. As we prepare the company for the next phase of growth, we had to make the hard but necessary decision to reduce our head count by over 10%. The savings generated are expected to be well in excess of $1 billion on an annual run rate basis. We are also getting hyper focused on CapEx efficiency and utilizing our installed capacity in a more efficient manner. The savings from these initiatives, including our cost reductions will help improve our overall profitability and ultimately enable us to increase the scale of our investments in AI. In conclusion, the future is extremely bright and the journey to get there while challenging will be extremely rewarding. Once again, I would like to thank the whole Tesla team for delivering great results. And we can open it up to Q&A.
A - Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let's start with investor Q&A. The first question is, what is the status of 4680. What is the current output? Lars?
Lars Moravy :
Sure. 4680 production increased about 18% to 20% from Q4 reaching greater than 1K a week for Cybertruck, which is about 7 gigawatt hours per year as we posted on X. We expect to stay ahead of the Cybertruck ramp with the cell production throughout Q2 as we ramp the third of four lines in Phase 1, while maintaining multiple weeks of cell inventory to make sure we're ahead of the ramp. Because we're ramping, COGS continues to drop rapidly week-over-week driven by yield improvements throughout the lines and production volume increases. So our goal, and we expect to do this is to beat supplier cost of nickel-based cells by the end of the year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The second question is on Optimus. So what is the current status of Optimus? Are they currently performing any factory tasks? When do you expect to start mass production?
Elon Musk:
We are able to do simple factory tasks or at least, I should say, factory tasks in the lab. In terms of – we do think we will have Optimus in limited production in the natural factory itself, doing useful tasks before the end of this year. And then I think we may be able to sell it externally by the end of next year. These are just guesses. As I've said before, I think Optimus will be more valuable than everything else combined. Because if you've got a sentient humanoid robots that is able to navigate reality and do tasks at request, there is no meaningful limit to the size of the economy. So that's what is going to happen. And I think Tesla is best positioned of any humanoid robot maker to be able to reach volume production with efficient inference on the robot itself. I mean this perhaps is a point that is worth emphasizing Tesla's AI inference efficiency is vastly better than any other company. There is no company even close to the inference efficiency of Tesla. We've had to do that because we were constrained by the inference hardware in the car, we didn't have a choice. But that will pay dividends in many ways.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The third question is, what is the current assessment of the pathway towards regulatory approval for unsupervised FSD in the U.S. And how should we think about the appropriate safety threshold compared to human drivers?
Elon Musk:
Sure.
Lars Moravy:
I can start. There are a handful of states that already have adopted autonomous vehicle laws. These states are paving the way for operations, while the data for such operations guides a broader adoption of driver-less vehicles. I think Ashok can talk a little bit about our safety methodology, but we expect that these states and the work ongoing as well as the data that we're providing will pave a way for a broad-based regulatory approval in the U.S. at least and then in other countries as well?
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes. It's actually been pretty helpful that other autonomous car companies have been cutting a path through the regulatory jungle, which is absurd. That's actually quite helpful. And they have obviously been operating in San Francisco for a while. I think they got approval for City of LA. So these approvals are happening rapidly. I think if you've got at scale, a statistically significant amount of data that shows conclusively that the autonomous car has, let's say, half the accident rate of a human-driven car, I think, that's difficult to ignore because at that point, stopping autonomy means killing people. So I actually do not think that there will be significant regulatory barriers provided there was conclusive data that the autonomous car is safer than a human-driven car. And in my view, this will be much like elevators. Elevators used to be operated by a guy with relay switch. But sometimes that guy would get tired or drunk or just make a mistake, and shatter somebody in half between floors. So we just get an elevator and press button, we don't think about it. In fact, it's kind of weird if somebody is standing there with a relay switch. And that will be how cars work. You just summon the car using your phone, you get in, it takes you to a destination, you get out.
Vaibhav Taneja:
You don't even think about it?
Elon Musk:
You don't even think about it. Just like an elevator, it takes you to your floor. That's it. Don't think about how the elevator is working or anything like that. And something I should clarify is that Tesla will be operating the fleet. So you can think of like how Tesla, think of it’s like some combination of Airbnb and Uber, meaning that there will be some number of cars that Tesla owns itself and operates in the fleet. There will be some number of cars and then there'll be a bunch of cars where they're owned by the end user. That end user can add or subtract their car to the fleet whenever they want, and they can decide if they want to only let the car be used by friends and family or only by 5-star users or by anyone at any time they could have the car come back to them and be exclusively theirs, like an Airbnb. You could rent out your guest room or not, any time you want. So as our fleet grows, we have 7 million cars going to – 9 million cars going to, eventually tens of millions of cars worldwide. With a constant feedback loop, every time something goes wrong, that gets added to the training data and you get this training flywheel happening in the same way that Google Search has the sort of flywheel, it's very difficult to compete with Google because people are constantly doing searches and clicking and Google is getting that feedback loop. It’s the same with Tesla. But at a scale that is maybe difficult to comprehend, but ultimately, it will be tens of millions. I think there's also some potential here for an AWS element down the road where if we've got very powerful inference because we've got a Hardware 3 in the cars, but now all cars are being made with Hardware 4. Hardware 5 is pretty much designed and should be in cars, hopefully towards the end of next year. And there's a potential to run – when the car is not moving to actually run distributed inference. So kind of like AWS, but distributed inference. Like it takes a lot of computers to train an AI model, but many orders of magnitude less compute to run it. So if you can imagine future, perhaps where there's a fleet of 100 million Teslas, and on average, they've got like maybe a kilowatt of inference compute. That's 100 gigawatts of inference compute distributed all around the world. It's pretty hard to put together 100 gigawatts of AI compute. And even in an autonomous future where the car is, perhaps, used instead of being used 10 hours a week, it is used 50 hours a week. That still leaves over 100 hours a week where the car inference computer could be doing something else. And it seems like it will be a waste not to use it.
Martin Viecha:
Ashok, do you want to chime in on the air process and safety?
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes, we have multiple tiers of validating the safety in any given week, we train hundreds of neural networks that can produce different trajectories for how to drive the car, we replay them through the millions of clips that we have already collected from our users and our own QA. Those are like critical events, like someone jumping out in front or like other critical events that we have gathered database over many, many years, and we replay through all of them to make sure that we are net improving safety. And on top of it, we have simulation systems that also try to recreate this and test this in closed loop fashion. And some of this is validated, we give it to our own QA drivers. We have hundreds of them in different cities, in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Austin, New York, a lot of different locations. They are also driving this and collecting real-world miles, and we have an estimate of what are the critical events, are they a net improvement compared to the previous week’s builds. And once we have confidence that the build is a net improvement, then we start shipping to early users, like 2,000 employees initially that they would like it to build, they will give feedback on like if it's an improvement there or they're noting some new issues that we did not capture in our own QA process. And only after all of this is validated, then we go to external customers. And even when we go external, we have like live dashboards of monitoring every critical event that's happening in the fleet sorted by the criticality of it. So we are having a constant pulse on the build quality and the safety improvement along the way. And then any failures like Elon alluded to, we get the data back, add it to the training and that improves the model in the next cycle. So we have this like constant feedback loop of issues, fixes, evaluations and then rinse and repeat. And especially with the new V12 architecture, all of this is automatically improving without requiring much engineering interventions in the sense that engineers don't have to be creative in like how they code the algorithms. It's mostly learning on its own based on data. So you see that, okay, every failure or like this is how a person shows, this is how you drive this intersection or something like that, they get the data back. We add it to the neural network, and it learns from that trained data automatically instead of some engineers saying that, oh, here, you must rotate the steering wheel by this much or something like that. There's no hard inference conditions, it's everything is neural network, it's very soft, it's probabilistic. So it will adapt its probability distribution based on the new data that it's getting.
Elon Musk:
Yes. We do have some insight into how good the things will be in like, let's say, three or four months because we have advanced models that are far more capable than what is in the car, but have some issues with them that we need to fix. So they are like there'll be a step change improvement in the capabilities of the car, but it will have some quirks that are – that need to be addressed in order to release it. As Ashok was saying, we have to be very careful in what we release the fleet or to customers in general. So like – if we look at say 12.4 and 12.5, which are really could arguably even be Version 13, Version 14 because it's pretty close to a total retrain of the neural nets in each case are substantially different. So we have good insight into where the model is, how well the car will perform, in, say, three or four months.
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes. In terms of scaling laws, people in the AI community generally talk about model scaling laws where they increase the model size a lot and then their corresponding gains in performance, but we have also figured out scaling laws and other access in addition to the model side scaling, making also data scaling. You can increase the amount of data you use to train the neural network and that also gives similar gains and you can also scale up by training compute, you can train it for much longer or make more GPUs or more Dojo nodes and that also gives better performance, and you can also have architecture scaling where you count with better architectures that for the same amount of compute for produce better results. So a combination of model size scaling, data scaling, training compute scaling and the architecture scaling, we can basically extract like, okay, with the continue scaling based on this – at this ratio, we can sort of predict future performance. Obviously, it takes time to do the experiments because it takes a few weeks to train, it takes a few weeks to collect tens of millions of video clips and process all of them, but you can estimate what’s going to be the future progress based on the trends that we have seen in the past, and they’re generally held true based on past data.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. I’ll go to the next question, which is, can we get an official announcement of the time line for the $25,000 vehicle?
Lars Moravy:
I think we – Elon mentioned it in the opening remarks. But as you mentioned, we’re updating our future vehicle lineup to accelerate the launch of our low-cost vehicles in a more CapEx efficient way. That’s our mission to get the most affordable cars to customers as fast as possible. These new vehicles we built on our existing lines and open capacity, and that’s a major shift to utilize all our capacity with marginal CapEx before we go spend high CapEx to do anything.
Elon Musk:
Yes. We’ll talk about this more on August 8. But really, the way to think of Tesla is almost entirely in terms of solving autonomy and being able to turn on that autonomy for a gigantic fleet. And I think it might be the biggest asset value appreciation history when that day happens when you can do unsupervised full self-driving.
Lars Moravy:
5 million cars?
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Lars Moravy:
A little less?
Elon Musk:
Yes. It will be 7 million cars in a year or so and then 10 million and then eventually, we’re talking about tens of millions of cars. Not eventually, it’s like, yes, for the end of the decade, its several tens of millions of cars I think.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, what is the progress of Cybertruck ramp?
Lars Moravy:
I can take that one too. Cybertruck had 1K a week just a couple of weeks ago. This happened in the first four to five months since we SOP [ph] late last year. Of course, volume production is what matters. That’s what drives costs and so our costs are dropping, but the ramp still faces like a lot of challenges with so many new technologies, some supplier limitations, et cetera, and continue to ramp this year, just focusing on cost efficiency and quality.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you. The next question, have any of the legacy automakers contacted Tesla about possibly licensing FSD in the future?
Elon Musk:
We’re in conversations with one major automaker regarding licensing FSD.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is about the robotaxi unveil. Elon already talked about that. So we’ll have to wait till August. The following question is about the next-generation vehicle. We already talked about that. So let’s go to the semi. What is the time line for scaling semi?
Elon Musk:
I think…
Lars Moravy:
So we’re finalizing the engineering of the semi to enable like a super cost-effective high-volume production with our learnings from our fleet and our pilot fleet and Pepsi’s fleet, which we are expanding this year marginally. In parallel, as we showed in the shareholders’ deck, we have started construction on the factory in Reno. Our first vehicles are planned for late 2025 with external customers starting in 2026.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. A couple more questions. So our favorite, can we make FSD transfer permanent until FSD is fully delivered with Level 5 autonomy?
Lars Moravy:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Next question, what is the getting the production ramp at Lathrop, where do you see the Megapack run rate at the end of the year. Mike?
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes. Yes, Lathrop is ramping as planned. We have our second GA line allowing us to increase our exit rate from 20 gigawatt hours per year to – at the start of this year to 40 gigawatt hours per year by the end of the year, that lines commissioned. There’s really nothing limiting the ramp. Its given the longer sales cycles for these large projects, we typically have order visibility 12 months to 24 months prior to ship dates. So we’re able to plan – the build plan several quarters in advance. So this allows us to ramp the factory to align with the business and order growth. Lastly, we’d like to thank our customers globally for their trust in Tesla as a partner for these incredible projects.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. Let’s go to analyst questions. The first question comes from Tony Sacconaghi from Bernstein. Tony, please go ahead and unmute.
Tony Sacconaghi:
Thank you for taking the question. I was just wondering if you can elaborate a little bit more on kind of the new vehicles that you talked about today. Are these like tweaks on existing models, given that they’re going to be running on the same lines? Are these like new models? And how should we think about them in the context of like the Model 3 Highland update, what will these models be like relative to that? And given the quick time frame, Model 3 Highland has required a lot of work and a lot of retooling. Maybe you can help put that all in context. Thank you, and I have a follow-up, please.
Elon Musk:
I think we've said, we were on that front. So what’s your follow-up?
Tony Sacconaghi:
It’s a more personal one for you, Elon, which is that you’re leading many important companies right now. Maybe you can just talk about where your heart is at in terms of your interests and do you expect to lessen your involvement with Tesla at any point over the next three years?
Elon Musk:
Tesla constitutes a majority of my work time and I work pretty much every day of the week. It’s rare for me to take a Sunday afternoon. So I’m going to make sure Tesla is quite prosperous. And it is – like it is prosperous and it will be very much so in the future.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you. Let’s go to Adam Jonas from Morgan Stanley. Adam, please go ahead and unmute.
Adam Jonas:
Okay. Great. Hey, Elon. So you and your team on volume expect a 2024 growth rate, notably lower than that achieved in 2023. But what's your team's degree of confidence on growth above 0%? Or in other words, does that statement leave room for potentially lower sales year-on-year?
Elon Musk:
No, I think we'll have higher sales this year than last year.
Adam Jonas:
Okay. My follow-up, Elon, on future product. If you had nailed execution, assuming that you nail execution on your next-gen cheaper vehicles, more aggressive giga castings, I don't want to say one piece, but getting closer to one piece, structural pack, unboxed, 300-mile range, $25,000 price point, putting aside robotaxi, those features unique to you. How long would it take your best Chinese competitors to copy a cheaper and better vehicle that you could offer a couple of years from now? How long would it take your best Chinese competitors to copy that? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
I mean, I don't know what our competitors could do, except we've done relatively better than they have. If you look at the drop in our competitors in China sales versus our drop in sales, our drop was less than theirs. So we're doing well. But I think Cathy Wood said it best, like really, we should be thought of as an AI or robotics company. If you value Tesla as just like an auto company, you just have to – fundamentally, it's just the wrong framework and it will come to be. If you ask the wrong question, then the right answer is impossible. So I mean, if somebody doesn't believe Tesla is going to solve autonomy, I think they should not be an investor in the company. Like, that is – but we will and we are. And then you have a car that goes from 10 hours of use a week, like 1.5 hours a day to probably 50%, but it costs the same.
Vaibhav Taneja:
I think that's the key thing to remember, right, especially if you look at FSD Supervised, if you didn't believe in autonomy, this should give you a review that this is coming. It's actually getting better day by day.
Elon Musk:
Yes. If you've not tried the FSD 12.3, and like I said, 12.4 is going to be significantly better and 12.5 even better than that. And we have visibility into those things. Then you really don't understand what's going on. It's not possible.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes. And that's why we can't just look at just as a car company because a car company would just have a car. But here, we have more than a car company because the cars can be autonomous. And like I said, it's happening.
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes. This is all in addition to Tesla – the overall AI community is just like increasing – like, improving rapidly.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean we're putting the actual auto in automobile. So sort of – we go like, well, sort of like tell us about future horse carriages you're making. I'm like, well, actually, it doesn't need a horse that's the whole point. That's really the whole point.
Martin Viecha:
Okay, thank you. The next question comes from Alex Potter from Piper Sandler. Alex, please go ahead and unmute.
Alex Potter:
Great, thanks. Yes, so I couldn't agree more. The thesis hinges completely on AI, the future of AI, full self-driving neural net training, all of these things. In that context, Elon, you've spoken about your desire to obtain 25% voting control of the company. And I understand completely why that would be. So I'm not necessarily asking about that. I'm asking if you've come up with any mechanism by which you can ensure that you'll obtain that level of voting control. Because if not, then the core part of the thesis could potentially be at risk. So any additional commentary you might have on that topic.
Elon Musk:
Well, I think no matter what Tesla, even if I got kidnapped by aliens tomorrow, Tesla will solve autonomy, maybe a little slower, but it would solve autonomy for vehicles at least. I don't know if it would winon with respect to Optimus or with respect to future products, but it would that there's enough momentum for Tesla to solve autonomy even if I disappeared for vehicles. Yes, there's a whole range of things we can do in the future beyond that. I'll be more reticent with respect to Optimus, if we have a super-sentient humanoid robot that can follow you indoors and that you can escape, we're talking terminator-level risk. And yes, I'd be uncomfortable with. If there's not some meaningful level of influence over how that is deployed. And if there's shareholders have an opportunity to ratify or reratify the sort of competition because I can't say that. That is a fact. They have an opportunity. And yes, we'll see. If the company generates a lot of positive cash flow, we could obviously buy back shares.
Alex Potter:
All right. That's actually all very helpful context. Thank you. Maybe one final question and I'll pass it on. OpEx reductions, thank you for quantifying the impact there. I'd be interested also in potentially more qualitative discussion of what the implications are for these headcount reductions. What are the types of activities that you're presumably sacrificing as a result of parting ways with these folks? Thanks very much.
Vaibhav Taneja:
So like we said, we've done these headcount reductions across the board. And as companies grow over time, there are certain redundancies. There's some duplication of efforts, which happens in certain areas. So you need to go back and look at where all these pockets are, get rid of it. So we're basically going through that exercise wherein we're like, hey, how do we set this company right for the next phase of growth. And the way to think about it is any tree which grows, it needs pruning. This is the pruning exercise which we went through. And at the end of it, we'll be much stronger and much more resilient to deal with the future because the future is really bright. Like I said in my opening remarks, we just have to get through this period and get there.
Elon Musk:
Yes, we're not giving up anything that is significant that I'm aware of. So we've had a long period of prosperity from 2019 to now. And so if a company sort of organizationally is 5% wrong per year, that accumulates to 25%, 30% of inefficiency. We've made some corrections along the way. But it is time to reorganize the company for the next phase of growth and you really need to reorganize it, just like a human when we start off with one cell and kind of zygote, blastocyst and you start growing arms and legs and briefly, you have a tail. And so…
Alex Potter:
But you shed the tail.
Elon Musk:
You shed the tail, hopefully. And then you're baby, you basically, you have to be the organism – a company is kind of like creature growing. And if you don't reorganize it for different phases of growth, it will fail. You can't have the same organizational structure if you're 10 cells versus 100 cells versus 1 million cells versus 1 billion cells versus 1 trillion cells. Humans are around 35 trillion cells, doesn't feel like it feels like, like one person. But you're basically a walking cell colony of roughly 35 trillion depending on your body mass and about three times that number in bacteria. So anyway, you've got to reorganize the company for a new phase of growth or will fail to achieve that growth.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to Mark Delaney from Goldman Sachs. Mark please go ahead and unmute.
Mark Delaney:
Yes. Good afternoon. Thanks very much for taking the question. The company previously characterized potential FSD licensing discussions in the early phase and some OEMs had not really been believing in it. Can you elaborate on how much the licensing business opportunity you mentioned today has progressed? And is there anything Tesla needs to achieve with the technology in terms of product milestones in order to be successful at reaching a licensing agreement in your view?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think we just need to – it just needs to be obvious that our approach is the right approach. And I think it is. I think we've now with 12.3, if you just have the car drive you around; it is obvious that our solution with a relatively low-cost inference computer and standard cameras can achieve self-driving. No LiDARs, no radars, no ultrasonic nothing.
Vaibhav Taneja:
No heavy integration work for vehicle manufacturers.
Elon Musk:
Yes. So it really just be a case of having them use the same cameras and inference computer and licensing our software. But once it becomes obvious that if you don't have this in a car, nobody wants your car. It's a smart car. I still remember in, back when Nokia was king of the hill, Yes, crushing. And they certainly come out with a smartphone that was basically a break with limited functionality. And then the iPhone and Android, people still do not understand that all the phones are going to be that way. There's not going to be any flip [ph] phones. If there will be a niche product.
Lars Moravy:
Or home phones.
Elon Musk:
Yes, no even exactly. When is the last time you saw a home phone.
Lars Moravy:
No idea in a hotel, sometimes in hotels.
Elon Musk:
Yes, the hotels have them. Yes. So the people don't understand all cars will need to be smart cars, or you will not sell or the car will not – nobody would buy it. Once that becomes obvious, I think licensing becomes not optional.
Mark Delaney:
It becomes a method of survival?
Elon Musk:
Yes, absolutely, it is. License it or nobody will buy your car.
Vaibhav Taneja:
I mean one other thing which I'll add is in the conversations, which we've had with some of these OEMs, I just want to also point out that they take a lot of time in their product life cycle.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Vaibhav Taneja:
They're talking about years before they will put it in their product. We might have a licensing deal earlier than that, but it takes a while. So this is where the big difference between us and them is, right?
Elon Musk:
Yes, I mean, really a deal signed now would result in it being in a car probably three years.
Vaibhav Taneja:
That would be early.
Elon Musk:
Yes. That's like lightening basically.
Lars Moravy:
That's in eager [ph] OEM.
Elon Musk:
Yes. So I wouldn't be surprise if we do sign a deal. I think we have a good chance we do sign a deal this year, maybe more than one. But yes, it would be probably three years before it's integrated with a car. Even though all you need is cameras and our inference computer. So just talking about a massive design change.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes. And again, just to clarify, it's not the work which we have to do. It's the work which they have to do, which will take the time.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Mark, is it helpful?
Mark Delaney:
Yes, very helpful. Thank you. My follow-up was to better understand Tesla's approach to pricing going forward. Previously, the company had said that the price reductions were driving incremental demand with how affordable the cars have become, especially for vehicles that have access to IRA credits and some of the leasing offers that Tesla has in place. Do you still see meaningful incremental price reductions as making sense from here for the existing products? And can the company meaningfully lower prices from here and also stay free cash flow positive on an annual basis with the current product set? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think we can be free cash flow positive meaningfully.
Lars Moravy:
I think Vaibhav said it in his opening remarks, like our cost down efforts, we basically were offsetting the price cut like we’re trying to give it back to the customers.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean the end of the day, like for any given company, if you sell a great product at a great price – if you have a great product at a great price, the sales will be excellent. That’s true of any area. So over time, we do need to keep making sure that we’re – that it’s a great product at a great price. And moreover, that price is accessible to people. So it’s not – you have to solve both the value for money and the fundamental affordability question. The fundamental affordability question is sometimes overlooked. If somebody is earning several hundred thousand dollars a year, they don’t think of a car from a fundamental affordability standpoint. But from vast majority of people are living paycheck to paycheck. So it actually makes a difference if the cost per month for lease refinancing is $10 one way or the other. So it is important to keep improving the affordability and to keep making the price.
Lars Moravy:
More accessible.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. Make the price more accessible, the value for money better, and to keep improving that over time.
Lars Moravy:
But also make kick as cost that people want to buy.
Elon Musk:
Yes, it’s going to be a great product and at a great price. And the standards for what constitutes great product at a great price keep increasing. So there’s like – you can’t just be static. You have to keep making the car better, improving the price, but improving the cost of production, and that’s what we’re doing.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes. And in fact, like I said in my opening remarks also, like the revised – the updated Model 3 is a fantastic car. I don’t think people fully even understand that lot of engineering effort which has gone and Lars and team have actually put out videos explaining how much the car is different. I mean it looks and feels different. Not only it looks and feels different. We’ve added so much value to it, but you can lease it for like as low as $299 a month.
Lars Moravy:
Without gas.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
All right. The next question comes from George from Canaccord. George, please go ahead and unmute.
Unidentified Analyst:
Hi, thank you for taking my question. First, could you please help us understand some of the timing of launching FSD in additional geographies, including maybe clarifying your recent comment about China? Thank you.
Elon Musk:
I mean like new markets, yes, we are – there are a bunch of markets where we don’t currently sell cars that we should be selling cars in. We’ll see some acceleration of that.
Unidentified Analyst:
And FSD new markets?
Elon Musk:
Yes. So think about the end-to-end neural net-based autonomy is that just like a human, it actually works pretty well without modification in almost any market. So we plan on – with the approval of the regulators, releasing it as a supervised autonomy system in any market that – where we can get regulatory approval for that, which we think includes China. So yes, it’s – just like a human, you can go rent a car in a foreign country and you can drive pretty well. Obviously, if you live in that country, you’ll drive better. And so we’ll make the car drive better in these other countries with country-specific training. But it can drive quite well almost everywhere.
Vaibhav Taneja:
The basics of driving are basically same everywhere like car is a car, the traffic lights, road is the road. Yes.
Elon Musk:
It understands that it shouldn’t hit things, no matter what the road rules are.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Exactly. There are some road rules that you need to follow. And in China, you shouldn’t cross over a solid line to do a lane change. In U.S. it’s a recommendation I think. In China, you get fined heavily if you do that. We have to do some more actions, but it’s mostly smaller reduction. It’s not like the entire change or type or something.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Hey, George, do you have a follow-up?
Unidentified Analyst:
Yes. So my follow-up has to do with the first quarter deliveries and I’m curious as to whether or not you feel that supply constraints that you mentioned throughout the release impacted the results and maybe can you help us quantify that? And is that why you have some confidence in unit growth in 2024?
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes. I think we did cover this a little bit in the opening remarks to you. Q1 had a lot of different things which are happening. Seasonality was a big one, continued pressure from the macroeconomic environment. We had attacks at our factory. We had Red Sea attacks, we are ramping Model 3, we’re ramping Cybertruck. All these things are happening. I mean, it almost feels like a culmination of all those activities in a constrained period. And that gives us that confidence that, hey, we don’t expect these things to recur.
Elon Musk:
Yes. We think Q2 will be a lot better.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes.
Lars Moravy:
It’s just one thing after another. Our Cybertrucks are crazy. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. It’s just – if you’ve got cars that are sitting on ships, they obviously cannot delivered to people. And if you’ve got the excess demand for Model 3 and Model Y in one market, but you don’t have it there. It’s quite a – it’s extremely complex logistics situation. So I’d say also the – we did overcomplicate the sales process, which we’ve just in the past week or so have greatly simplified. So it became far too complex to buy a Tesla, whereas it should just be you can buy the car in under a minute. So we’re getting back to that you can buy a Tesla in under an minute interface from what was quite complex.
Martin Viecha:
Okay, thank you. Let’s go to Colin Rusch from Oppenheimer. Colin, go ahead and unmute, please.
Colin Rusch:
Thanks so much, guys. Given the pursuit of Tesla really as a leader in AI for the physical world, in your comments around distributed inference, can you talk about what that approach is unlocking beyond what’s happening in the vehicle right now?
Elon Musk:
Do you want to say something?
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes. Like Elon mentioned like the car even when it's a full robotaxi it's probably going to be used 150 hours a week.
Elon Musk:
That's my guess like a third of the hours of the week.
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes. It could be more or less, but then there's certainly going to be some hours left for charging and cleaning and maintenance in that world, you can do a lot of other workloads, even right now we are seeing, for example, these LLM companies have these like batch workloads where they send a bunch of documents and those run through pretty large neural networks and take a lot of compute to chunk through those workloads. And now that we have already paid for this compute in these cars, it might be wise to use them and not let them be idle, be like buying a lot of expensive machinery and leaving to them idle. Like we don't want that, we want to use the computer as much as possible and close to like basically 100% of the time to make it a use of it.
Elon Musk:
That’s right. I think it's analogous to Amazon Web Services, where people didn't expect that AWS would be the most valuable part of Amazon when it started out as a bookstore. So that was on nobody's radar. But they found that they had excess compute because the compute needs would spike to extreme levels for brief periods of the year and then they had idle compute for the rest of the year. So then what should they do to pull that excess compute for the rest of the year? That's kind of...
Ashok Elluswamy:
Monetize it
Elon Musk:
Yes, monetize it. So, it seems like kind of a no-brainer to say, okay, if we've got millions and then tens of millions of vehicles out there where the computers are idle most of the time that we might well have them do something useful.
Ashok Elluswamy:
Exactly.
Elon Musk:
And then, I mean, if you get like to the 100 million vehicle level, which I think we will, at some point, get to, then – and you've got a kilowatt of useable compute and maybe your own hardware 6 or 7 by that time. Then you really – I think you could have on the order of 100 gigawatts of useful compute, which might be more than anyone more than any company, probably more than a company.
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes, probably because it takes a lot of intelligence to drive the car anyway. And when it's not driving the car, you just put this intelligence to other uses, solving scientific problems or answer in terms of someone else.
Elon Musk:
It's like a human, ideally. We've already learned about deploying workloads to these nodes
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes. And unlike laptops and our cell phones, it is totally under Tesla's control. So it's easier to distribute the workload across different nodes as opposed to asking users for permission on their own cell phones to be very tedious.
Elon Musk:
Well, you're just draining the battery on the phone.
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes, exactly. The battery is also...
Elon Musk:
So like technically, I suppose like Apple would have the most amount of distributed compute, but you can't use it because you can't get the – you can't just run the phone at full power and drain the battery.
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
So, whereas for the car, even if you're a kilowatt level inference computer, which is crazy power compared to a phone. If you've got 50 or 60 kilowatt hour pack, it's still not a big deal to run if you are plugged it – whether you plugged it or not – you could be plugged in or not like you could run for 10 hours and use 10-kilowatt hours of your kilowatt of compute power.
Lars Moravy:
Yes. We got built in like liquid cold thermal management.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly.
Lars Moravy:
Exactly for data centers, it's already there in the car.
Elon Musk:
Exactly. Yes. Its distributed power generation – distributed access to power and distributed cooling, that was already paid for.
Ashok Elluswamy:
Yes. I mean that distributed power and cooling, people underestimate that costs a lot of money.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes. And the CapEx is shared by the entire world sort of everyone wants a small chunk, and they get a small profit out of it, maybe.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Colin Rusch:
Thanks so much guys. And just my follow-up is a little bit more mundane. Looking at the 4680 ramp, can you talk about how close you were to target yields and when you might start to accelerate incremental capacity expansions on that technology?
Elon Musk:
We're making good progress on that. But I don't think it's super important for at least in the near term. As Lars said, we think it will be exceed the competitiveness of suppliers by the end of this year and then we'll continue to improve.
Lars Moravy:
Yes. I mean, I think it's important to note also that like the ramp right now is relevant to the Cybertruck ramp.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Lars Moravy:
And so like we're not going to just randomly build 4680s unless we have a place to put them and so we're going to make sure we're prudent about that. But we also have a lot of investments with all our cell suppliers and vendors. They're great partners, and they've done great development work with us and a lot of the advancements in technologies and chemistry we found 4680, they're also putting into their cells.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean a big part of the 4680, Tesla doing internal cells was a hedge against what would happen with our suppliers because for a while they are it was very difficult because every big carmaker put in massive battery orders, and so the price per kilowatt hour of lithium-ion batteries went to crazy numbers, crazy levels.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Bonkers.
Elon Musk:
Yes, just bonkers. So like, okay, we've got to have some hedge here to deal with cost per kilowatt hours of numbers that were double what we anticipated. If we have an internal cell production, then we have that hedge against demand shocks, we have too much demand. That's really the way to think about it. It's not like we want to take on a whole bunch of problems just for the hell of it. We did the cell program in order to address the crazy increase in cost per kilowatt hour from our suppliers due to gigantic orders placed by every carmaker on earth.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you. And the last question comes from Ben Kallo from Baird. Ben, go ahead and unmute. Ben, you're still muted.
Elon Musk:
Well, I want to say again, we'd just like to strongly recommend that anyone who is, I guess, thinking about the Tesla stock should really drive FSD 12.3. It really – you can't – it's impossible to understand the company if you do not do this.
Martin Viecha:
All right. So since Ben is not unmuting. Let's try Shreyas Patil from Wolfe Research. Final question.
Shreyas Patil:
Thanks so much. Just Elon, during the Investor Day last year, you mentioned that auto COGS per unit for the next-gen vehicle would decline by 50% versus the current three and Y. I think that was implying something around $20,000 of COGS. About one-third of that was coming from the on-box manufacturing process. But I'm curious if you see an opportunity that the – some of the other drivers around powertrain cost reduction or material cost savings, would those be largely transferable to some of the new products that you're now talking about introducing?
Lars Moravy:
Yes, sure. I mean, in short, yes, I mean, like the on-box manufacturing method is certainly great and revolutionary, but with it comes some risks because new production lines and not, but all the subsystems we developed, whether it was powertrains, drive units, battery improvements in manufacturing and automation, thermal systems, seating, integration of interior components and reduction of LV controllers, all that's transferable, and that's what we're doing, trying to get it in their products as fast as possible. And so yes, that engineering work, we're not trying to just throw it away and put a cars and we're going to take it and utilize it and utilize it to the best advantage of the cars we make and the future cars make.
Shreyas Patil:
Okay. Great. And then just on that topic of 4680 cells, I know you mentioned it, you really thought of it more as like a hedge against rising battery costs from other OEMs. But it seems even today, it seems like you would have a cost advantage against some of those other automakers. And I'm wondering, given the rationalizing of your vehicle manufacturing plans that you're talking about now, if there's an opportunity to maybe convert the 4680 cells and maybe sell those to other automakers and really generate an additional revenue stream. I'm just curious if you have any thoughts about that.
Elon Musk:
Great. What seems to be happening is that the I'm missing something, the orders for batteries from other automakers have declined dramatically. So we're seeing much more competitive prices for sales from our suppliers, dramatically more competitive than in the past. It is clear that a lot of our suppliers have excess capacity.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes. In addition to what Elon, this is kind of in addition to what Elon said, about 4680, what 4680 did for us from a supply chain perspective was help us understand the supply chain that's upstream of our cell suppliers. So a lot of the deals that we had struck for 4680, we can also supply those materials to our partners, help reducing the overall cost back to Tesla. So we're basically inserting ourselves in the upstream supply chain by doing that. So that's also been beneficial in reducing the overall pricing in addition to the excess capacity that these suppliers have.
Elon Musk:
Yes. No, I mean this is going to wax and wane, obviously. So there's going to be a boom and bust in battery cell production where production exceeds supply and then supply exceeds production and back and forth kind of like, I don't know, DRAM or something. But Yes. So it's like what is true today will not be true in the future, there's going to be somewhat of a boom and bust cycle here. And then there are additional complications with government incentives like the Inflation Reduction Act, the IRA, Joe [ph] has found like a funny name.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Comical name.
Elon Musk:
Yes, it is like Irish Republican Army, The Internet Research Agency from Russia.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Independent retirement account.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. Roth IRA. It's like Spider-Man situation, which IRA wins. So but it is complicate the incentive structure. So that is there's the stronger demand for cells that are produced in the U.S. than outside the U.S. But then how long is that the IRA last, I don't know.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Which is why it's important that we have both internet [ph] cells and vendor cells that hedge against all of this.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. That's all the time we have today. But at the same time, I would like to make a short announcement. And I wanted to let the investment community know that about a month ago, I met up with Elon and Vaibhav and announced that I'll be moving on from the world of Investor Relations. I'll be hanging around for another couple of months or so. So feel free to reach out at any time. But after the seven year sprint, I'm going to be taking a break and spending some good quality time with my family. And I wanted to say that these seven years have been the greatest privilege of my professional life. I'll never forget the memories from I started literally at the beginning of production hell and just watching the company from the inside to see what it's become today. And especially super thankful to the people in this room and dozens of people outside of this room that I've worked for over the years. I think the team's strength and teamwork at Tesla is unlike anything else I've seen in my career. Elon, thank you very much for this opportunity that I got back in 2017. Thank you for seeking investor feedback and regularly and debating it with me.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Well, I mean the reason I reached out to you was because I thought your analysis of Tesla was the best that I had seen.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you.
Elon Musk:
So, thank you for helping Tesla to get to where it is today over seven years. It's been a pleasure working with you.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you so much. And yes, thank you for all the thousands of shareholders that we've met over the years and walked around factories and loved all the interactions, even the tough ones. And yes, looking forward to the call in the next three months, but I'll be on the other side, listening in. Thank you very much.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Thanks.
Martin Viecha:
Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Tesla's Fourth Quarter 2023 Q&A Webcast. My name is Martin Viecha, VP of Investor Relations, and I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Vaibhav Taneja, and a number of other executives. Our Q4 results were announced at about 3.00 pm Central Time in the Update Deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please use the raise hand button to join the question queue. But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you. So the Tesla team did an incredible job in 2023. We achieved record production and deliveries of over 1.8 million vehicles in line with our official guidance. And in Q4, we were producing vehicles at an annualized run rate of almost 2 million cars a year. This is really a phenomenal achievement. Looking at just the Fremont factory alone, we made 560,000 cars. This is a record. In fact, it's the highest output of automotive plants in North America. And people are often surprised that the highest output factory, car factory in North America is in the San Francisco Bay area. It's a little counterintuitive, perhaps. And it's really had an incredibly positive impact on that entire area. What would have been a rundown strip mall is the highest productivity car plant in the Americas. Think about that. It was derelict when we got it, and now it's the most productive plant in this entire part of the world. And it's enriched the community in so many different ways. It's really a gem. So I'm super proud of the people that work there. Model Y became the best-selling vehicle globally, as predicted. The best-selling vehicle of any kind, not just electric vehicles with over 1.2 million units delivered. The energy storage business delivered nearly 15 gigawatt hours of batteries in 2023, compared to 6.5 gigawatt hours the year before. So tremendous year-over-year growth, triple-digits. And yeah, I think we'll continue to see very strong growth in storage, as predicted. I said for many years that the storage business would grow much faster than the car business, and it is doing that. Free cash flow remains strong at $4.4 billion in 2023, in spite of record spending on future projects. So we had record CapEx expenses as well as record R&D. This brings us to 2024. There's a lot to look forward to in 2024. Tesla is currently between two major growth waves. We're focused on making sure that our next growth wave, driven by next-gen vehicle, energy storage, full self-driving, other projects, is executed as well as possible. For full self-driving, we've released Version 12, which is a complete architectural rewrite compared to prior versions. This is end-to-end artificial intelligence. So another bit nets basically photons in and controls out, and it really is quite a profound difference. This is currently just with employees and a few customers, but we will be rolling out to all customers in the U.S. who request full self-driving in the weeks to come. That's over 400,000 vehicles in North America. So this is the first-time AI is being used, not just for object perception, but for path planning and vehicle controls. We replaced 330,000 lines of C++ code with neural nets. It's really quite remarkable. Yeah, sort of, as a side note, I think Tesla is probably the most efficient company in the world for AI inference. Out of necessity, we've actually had to be extremely good at getting the most out of hardware, because Hardware 3 at this point is several years old. So I think we're quite far ahead of any other company in the world in terms of AI and inference efficiency, which is going to be a very important metric in the future in many arenas. So, the new Model 3 is now available globally. So we did an updated Model 3. While the car looks similar, a lot of work has gone into the vehicle to make it better in every way. It is significantly quieter, more refined, better equipped, has longer range and many other improvements, and I recommend taking it for a test drive. If you have not driven a Model 3 in a long time, you should really try the new one. So, steady improvements. And we're very far along on our next-generation low-cost vehicle. This is an earnings call, not a product announcement. So there'll no doubt be many questions that try to ask us about new product, new products coming. But we reserve product announcements for product announcements not earning calls. So -- but we're very excited about this, and this is really going to be profound, not just in its design of the vehicle itself, but in the design of the manufacturing system. This is a revolutionary manufacturing system significantly, far more advanced than any other automotive manufacturing system in the world, by a significant margin. Several years ago, I said, perhaps the most important competitive characteristic of Tesla in the future will be manufacturing technology and you will really see that come to bear with our next-gen vehicle. The first manufacturing location for this will be at our Gigafactory and headquarters in Austin, Texas, and then we'll follow that up with other locations around the world. Probably the factory we'll build in Mexico will be second, and then we'll be looking to identify a third location, perhaps by the end of this year or early next outside of North America. In conclusion, we had a great year with record production, record deliveries, and a strong free cash flow in spite of a very high interest rate environment. And we are focused on exciting new projects that will -- I think, ultimately if we execute on all these things, and it is very hard to do all these things, it's not a sure thing. But I do see a path where Tesla could one day be the most valuable company in the world. I do emphasize that is not an easy path and a very difficult one, but it is now in the set of possible outcomes and previously I would not have thought it is in the set of possible outcomes. And thank you, again to all of our investors, our employees, and our suppliers for a strong year, and looking forward to a great 2024 and years to come. Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And our CFO, Vaibhav has some opening remarks as well.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Thanks, Martin. Good afternoon, everyone. As Elon mentioned, we had a record year in terms of both production and deliveries for our auto business as well as record deployments in our energy business. This was achieved despite 2023 being a challenging year in terms of higher interest rates and higher inflation. Big thanks to our customer for being with us through this challenging period. I would also like to thank the whole Tesla team for their resolve and dedication throughout. In terms of 2023 financials, we ended the year with over $96 billion of revenue and generated $4.4 billion of free cash flow to end the year with over $29 billion of cash and investments on hand. Our 2023 GAAP net income was impacted by the recognition of one-time non-cash benefit of $5.9 billion from the release of valuation allowance on certain deferred tax assets. This was due to our recent history of sustained profitability and is similar to several other companies who have recently gone through a similar change in their account. Accordingly, starting with Q1, our book tax rate will now be more in line with other companies in the S&P 500. In our vehicle business, we continue to see improvements in our per unit cost despite us being in the early phase of Cybertruck ramp. As a result, our auto gross margin improved sequentially. That said, predicting auto gross margins is extremely challenging since there are many moving parts to this equation, some of which are out of our control like the change in tariffs or local incentives to name a few. While the teams are focused on cost reductions, we are approaching the limits within our current platforms. On the demand front, as promised, we made investments in digital campaigns in 2023. We fully appreciate the importance of customer education as we are still in a customer acquisition phase. Our data suggests that around 90% of our vehicle buyers in 2023 never owned a Tesla before. We are being creative in figuring out ways to bring in new customers and educate them about the benefits of owning a Tesla versus gas-powered vehicles. The key among them being total cost of ownership. This concept is mostly overlooked for just the upfront cost. We will be rigorous in evaluating our campaigns, curating the content, and optimizing spend accordingly to support the overall demand. There are two additional things I would like to mention as it relates to the US market. First, for customers who qualify for the IRA buyer credit, we now offer that as a point-of-sale benefit for Model Y, which means an immediate reduction of $7,500 at the time of purchase to the end customer. Secondly, we continue to offer very attractive lease rates for Model 3 and Y using our Partner Leasing Program. Note that the sales under this program are recognized as upfront revenue and reported within automotive sales. Our energy storage business had another record year with deployments more than doubling and revenues increasing by more than 50%. This business is poised to again surpass our auto business in terms of growth rate in 2024. This has been in the works for quite some time with us laying the foundation a few years back by building our Megafactory in Lathrop. I would like to thank the whole Tesla Energy team for their efforts to make this a reality. Our services and others business also started contributing meaningfully to our results and our fleets -- as our fleet grows. As we expected the fleet-based revenues from supercharging, used cars, and services continue to increase. For 2024, our focus is to continue growing our output, continuing our cost reduction efforts, and increasing investments in our future growth initiatives. Accordingly, we are currently expecting our capital expenditure for 2024 to be in excess of $10 billion. We believe this would be critical in helping us lay the foundation for the next phase of growth. Once again, I would like to thank everybody at Tesla, our investors, and our suppliers for being with us in this journey. We can open it up to questions, Martin.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go through investor questions. Question number one is from Michael. Given that you moved the start of the next-generation compact vehicle production to Austin, has the timeline improved so that we might see next-generation platform vehicles in 2025?
Elon Musk:
I mean, I would certainly say things with they should be taken with a grain of salt, since I am often optimistic. I don't want to blow your minds, but I'm often optimistic regarding time. But our current schedule shows that we will start production towards the end of 2025. So sometime in the second half. That's just what our current schedule says. But there's a lot of new technology like a tremendous amount of new revolutionary manufacturing technology here. The reason I wanted to put this new revolutionary manufacturing line at Giga Texas was because we really need the engineers to be living on the line. This is not sort of off the shelf, just works type of thing. And it's just a lot easier for Tesla engineering to live online if it's in Austin versus elsewhere. So -- but we are currently expecting to start production second half next year. That will be a challenging production ramp. Like, as I can emphasize we'll be sleeping on the line practically. In fact, not practically. We will be. But I am confident that once it is going, it will be head and shoulders above any other manufacturing technology that exists anywhere in the world. It's next level. So it's always difficult to predict what that S-curve of manufacturing looks like. So it always starts off real slow, and then it grows exponentially. So -- and predicting that intermediate S-curve is difficult, so I don't know. It's hard to say what the unit volume would be next year. We're not going to make any predictions on that front, but it does seem quite likely that we will start production next year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is from Michael again. What has been the barrier to ramping 4680 cells into the multi-million cells per week rate and when do you expect to get there?
Elon Musk:
Karn?
Karn Budhiraj:
Yeah. First, I just want to allay any concerns regarding 4680 limiting the Cybertruck ramp, because I've seen some people commenting about that. To date, 4680 production is ahead of the ramp with actually weeks of finished cell inventory. And the goal is to keep it that way, not only for Cyber, but for our future vehicle programs. And as Elon said, it is an S-curve here too. It's hard to predict these things, but I'm just describing our goals.
Elon Musk:
It's a hard problem.
Karn Budhiraj:
Yeah.
Elon Musk:
There are entire companies where all they do is make battery cells. That's, like, all they do.
Karn Budhiraj:
Indeed, indeed.
Elon Musk:
We do a lot of other things, and we got a lot of breakthrough technologies that take time to figure out with 46. It's not just that it's a 46 millimeter diameter by 80 millimeter [Indiscernible] cell. That's just the dimensions. There's tremendous amount of new technology in the cell itself.
Karn Budhiraj:
And manufacturing technology.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly.
Karn Budhiraj:
And just regarding what the team was able to do in Q4, Texas successfully swapped line one from the Model Y design of the cell to the Cybertruck design of the cell, which was the 10% cell energy increase I've mentioned before. And as with any major new product introduction, the factory and engineering teams collaborated to ensure quality of the new design and the process changes as their first priority. And now our focus returns to cost and production ramp in Q1. And in terms of what we're doing, we're currently running one production line, one assembly line, using two assembly lines in addition for yield and rate improvement trials, and we have a fourth in commissioning, and four more will be installed starting in Q3 this year. So definitely this is a big year for ramping 4680.
Elon Musk:
But we also do want to emphasize that we also expect to ramp orders from our suppliers.
Karn Budhiraj:
Yeah.
Elon Musk:
So this is not about replacing our suppliers, it's about supplementing our suppliers.
Karn Budhiraj:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
So we are very appreciative of our suppliers. Panasonic, obviously, is our longest supplier. They're an amazing company. We've got CATL, we've got LG and BYD.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is from Adam. Should retail shareholders be concerned that Elon has stated that he is uncomfortable expanding AI and robotics at Tesla if he doesn't have 25% of voting?
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I guess. Let me explain what my concern is here, which is that I see a path to creating an artificial intelligence and robotics juggernaut of truly immense capability and power. And my concern would be, I don't want to control it. But if I have so little influence over the company at that stage that I could sort of be voted out by some sort of random shareholder advisory firm. We've had a lot of challenges with institutional shareholder services, ISS, I call them ISIS, and Glass Lewis, which -- and there's a lot of activists that basically infiltrate those organizations and have strange ideas about what should be done. So I want to have enough to be influential. Like, if we could do a dual-class stock, that would be ideal. I'm not looking for additional economics. I just want to be an effective steward of very powerful technology. And the reason I just sort of roughly picked approximately 25% was that's not so much that I can control the company, even if I go bonkers and if I'm, like, mad, they can throw me out. But it's enough that I have a strong influence. That's what I'm aiming for, is a strong influence, but not control. If there's some way to achieve that that would be great.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, what is your expectation for automotive gross margin ex-regulatory credits for the full year?
Vaibhav Taneja:
Like, I said in my opening remarks, we're focused on reducing the cost of our vehicles. This is very extensive and involved exercise whereby we look at not just the component cost, but down to the packaging used to get the materials to the production flow. Each element of the cost is scrutinized to optimize further. A few pennies saved at the subcomponent level, whether through engineering redesign or from many other things which I mentioned leads to cost reduction. This is a constant exercise and we just have to chase down every penny possible. We have a strong team which is hyper-focused on this. However, this is a very difficult thing to predict precisely because there are lots of...
Elon Musk:
We don't know. We don't have a crystal ball, so it's difficult for us to predict this with precision. If the interest rates come down quickly, I think margins will be good. And if they don't come down quickly, they won't be that good. Yeah. It's always important to remember that the vast majority of people buying a car is about the monthly payment. It's not that people don't want. We have tons of -- we have lots of people who want to buy our car but simply cannot afford it. And as interest rates drop and that monthly payment drops, then they're able to afford it and they buy the car. It's pretty straightforward and there are no tricks around to get around this.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you. The next question is, does the company anticipate a 50% volume CAGR to be realized in either of 2024 or 2025? If not, why not?
Vaibhav Taneja:
As we have said in our prior guidance, there will be periods where we won't be growing at the same rate as before. We are between two major growth waves. The first one began with the global expansion of Model 3 and Y, and we believe the next one will be initiated with the next generation platform. In 2024, our volume growth will be lower, as we have said, because we are trying to focus the team on the launch of the next generation vehicle.
Martin Viecha:
All right. Thank you very much. The next question is from Michael. When will Tesla start construction on the Giga Nevada expansion and Giga Mexico, and when can we expect each of these to produce their first products such as 4680 cell, Semi, and next-gen vehicles?
Karn Budhiraj:
We have recently broken ground for the next phase of Giga Nevada expansion to incorporate Semi and other projects. But as said earlier, as regarding Mexico, we want to first demonstrate success with the next-generation platform in Austin before we start construction. Therefore, we have started the long lead work to get the basics ready and plan to follow our recipe from the 3/Y ramp with Shanghai, where we started with learnings from Fremont and ramp really quickly.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, exactly. It's important to emphasize that I mean, Model 3 production was three years of hell, I've said it before, some of the really worst years of my life, frankly. I still have mental scar tissue from those three years, as do many. And then Model Y was somewhat of a variant on Model 3. So a much easier situation. And then we were able to actually do an improved -- slightly improved versions of, in some cases, significantly improved versions of the Model Y production line in Shanghai and Berlin. And that's the right, I think the sensible way to go about things is kind of figure out the core technology of the manufacturing line and then replicate it with improvements throughout the world.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question from Michael is, has there been any progress made with an FSD licensing agreement with another company?
Elon Musk:
I really think lots of car companies should be asking for FSD licenses. And we've had some tentative conversations, but I think they don't believe it's real quite yet. I think that will become obvious probably this year. And I do want to emphasize that if I were CEO of another car company, I would definitely be calling Tesla and asking to license Tesla full self-driving technology. It's definitely the smart move.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question from Siddharth. What is the timeline for Optimus first production off volume production line and what are the barriers to getting there?
Elon Musk:
Optimus, obviously, is a very new product, an extremely revolutionary product, and something that I think has the potential to potential to far exceed the value of everything else that Tesla combined. When you think of an economy, economy is productivity per capita times capita. But what if there's no limit to capita? There's no limit to the economy. And the technologies that we've -- AI technologies that we've developed for the car translate quite well to a humanoid robot because the car is just a robot on four wheels. Tesla is arguably already the biggest robot maker in the world. It's just a four-wheeled robot. So Optimus is a humanoid robot with arms and legs. It's by far the most sophisticated humanoid robot that's being developed anywhere in the world. I think we've got a good chance of shipping some number of Optimus units next year. But like I said, this is a brand new product. A lot of uncertainty -- when you have -- when there's a lot of uncertainty in your uncharted territory, it's obviously impossible to make a precise prediction. But we will be updating the public with progress on Optimus every few months, and you can see that it's advancing very quickly. I was just in the Optimus lab, actually, until late last night, like red night or something, finally left the Optimus lab. The team's doing amazing work. That's obviously a case where we want to make sure that Optimus is safe, especially at scale, and that there's no -- it should be impossible for any centralized control to upload malware to a humanoid robot. So we're going to want to pull then localized shut off that cannot be updated from a central server. That's the case where we really have to give extreme thought to safety. But like I said, I do think it has the potential to be the most valuable product of any kind ever, by far.
Karn Budhiraj:
Just to comment on the barrier, I think the barrier, and we've talked about this, is like getting it to actually do something useful. Like, we can get it to walk around, we can get it do things, but it's like that utility part.
Elon Musk:
We can already do some useful things.
Karn Budhiraj:
But like, to making millions of these things, it's like utility. Got to get the utility of it.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. A smart robot that can do -- that's capable of doing generalized tasks is what it will be in terms of doing moderately specialized tasks. Well, it can already do that. It'll just get better through the course of the year. As we improve the technology in the car, we improve the technology in Optimus at the same time. It runs the same AI inference computer that's on the car. Same training technology. I mean, we're really building the future. I mean, the Optimus lab looks like the set of Westworld. Admittedly, that was not a super utopian situation.
Karn Budhiraj:
Yeah. Not the best reference.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. The creators of Westworld, Jonathan Nolan, Lisa Joy Nolan, friends, old friends of mine, actually. And I invited them to come see the lab. I think they'll come see it, hopefully soon. It's pretty wild, especially the sort of subsystem test stands where you've just got like one leg on a test stand, just doing repetitive exercises and one arm on a test stand. Pretty wild. Yeah.
Karn Budhiraj:
We're not entering Westworld anytime soon.
Elon Musk:
Right. You take safety very, very seriously.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question from Nermin is, how many Cybertruck orders are in the queue and when do you anticipate you will be able to fulfill existing orders?
Karn Budhiraj:
First of all, I want to thank all the Cybertruck reservation holders for their patience. The reservation to order conversion rates so far has been very, very encouraging. If the trend continues as it very likely to be, we will soon sold out all the builds in 2024. And also, we have new orders come in after the launch. The auto numbers keep growing. So we're now all hands on deck, focused on ramping so we can fulfill all the demands in a reduced wait time.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. It's important to emphasize that this is very much a production-constrained situation, not a demand-constrained situation. And obviously, we could dramatically raise the price, but that doesn't feel right to us to sort of gouge people for early delivery. So -- but really, the demand is off the hook. As long as the price is affordable, I mean, I see us ultimately delivering on the order of 0.25 million, something like 0.25 million Cybertrucks a year in North America, maybe more. But give or take roughly on that time frame, and it sure is a head-turner.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Definitely is. Anywhere you go, people look at you, they give you thumbs up.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. It's like finally, the future. Looks like the future. It's just -- for the other trucks on the road there, which -- there's some very good trucks on the road, but if you were to switch out the brand name, you wouldn't hardly know which company made them, but you definitely would know the Cybertruck. That's our best product ever.
Martin Viecha:
All right. Thank you. The next question is, can we get Tesla Energy volumes reported in the production and delivery release?
Karn Budhiraj:
Yeah. We will strive to do so starting from this quarter. And just a brief update from the business perspective. Megapack continues to see strong demand signals globally, driving consistent growth trajectory through '24 and '25. We want to thank all of our partners who've put their trust in the Megapack team to execute on critical infrastructure around the world. And I would like to personally thank the Megapack engineering and production teams for their strong 2023 execution. Lathrop continues to ramp through 2024 with the operation of a second final assembly line to double capacity from 20 gigawatt to 40 gigawatt hours by the end of the year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the last investor question is from Siddharth, what are the preliminary results and return on investment of your ads and education campaign? Given that many people still lack awareness that Tesla average price is less than the average non-luxury car price of $45,000, will you expand educational ads?
Unidentified Company Representative:
As Elon mentioned, the ultimate solution to increase EV adoption is really address the affordability issue. But at the same time, we do aware there's awareness issue as well. So in Q4, we ran a series of digital campaigns, very targeted digital campaigns across different geos and different channel. The target of these tests is really just to drive awareness and ultimately measure the return of investment on those digital channels. The messaging we're driving has really focused on our product and also try to address some of the misconception of the EV, such as safety, affordability. And one particular awareness campaign we run in Texas will reach the audience, about 10 million unique viewers, and generated close to 0.5 million visits to our website. A large number of these viewers are first-time visitors to our website. The traffic through these digital channels actually behaved very similar to those organic traffic come to our website. So going forward, we're just going to keep exploring different channels and doing our trials to get a better understanding of this effectiveness of these digital campaigns.
Vaibhav Taneja:
But I would also like to caution that we'll be very careful that we don't want to overspend on this side. We want to make sure people are aware. But that's where we'll keep tweaking our methodology about how and where we spend the money. Because we understand the importance of increasing awareness, but at the same token, we don't want to spend a lot of money on just creating awareness.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. I mean, there are some geographies where our market share is remarkably low. Like Japan, for example. Now, we also need to make sure that we have superchargers in the right locations and the service centers are there, and the product works well in Japan. But Japan is the third largest car market in the world of any country, and we should at least have a market share proportionate to, say, other non-Japanese car makers like Mercedes or BMW, which we do not currently have. So I think that's a case -- when I talk to friends of mine in Japan, they're like -- there is quite a lack of awareness of Tesla. So that's a case where we definitely need to increase awareness in countries and regions where there is, yeah, not that much awareness.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to analyst questions. The first question comes from Pierre Ferragu from New Street Research. Pierre, go ahead, please. Feel free to unmute. Pierre, can you hear us?
Pierre Ferragu:
Okay. Wow. It's really tough to find the unmute button on Team's guide. I'm sorry for being late. So, yes, my question would on the cost reduction, you've talked about it already a lot. And if I look at it, over the last like, five, six quarters, on average, the COGS per car has been coming down, like, more than 2% sequentially, on average. So that means you are, like, on a trajectory of COGS per car going down 10% a year. So that's probably, like, unheard of in the auto industry. I don't think any car manufacturer ever achieved that. But that's very mundane, and it's a good performance, but it's a very normal performance in a lot of other manufacturing industry, like microelectronics or consumer electronics. And so I'd love to hear your thoughts about whether you consider yourself closer to the latter to, like, a microeconomics business where you have this ability to actually always improve costs. You have more control on how things are pulled together into your cars, and you see yourself sustainably taking costs down with that kind of pace or do you think your ability to take down cost is actually going to become more like in line with the rest in the industry over time?
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yeah. I think I covered this in a pretty lengthy detail, even in my opening remarks and in a previous question. But to just further clarify, we are constantly looking for what we can do to reduce cost. Like I said, it's a game of pennies. We've talked about it before as well. And the team is constantly going and checking, where can we reduce the cost further. And do I believe that we will have the same pace which you've seen over the past few years? Probably not, because remember, we were coming out with a period wherein commodity prices were rising, so then we did see benefits coming from that. So those are more or less taken care of. But there is more which we're still chasing. And I would say a big kudos goes to the team out here at Tesla, both the engineering team as well as the supply chain team, because every time we give them a challenge, they go gangbusters to try and figure out whatever they can to take out further cost. But yes, I would -- like I said, I would want to caution that do not project the previous cost reduction at the same pace completely in the future, because with our current platform, we are getting to a place wherein there are limitations.
Karn Budhiraj:
Yeah. The increased scale also sort of helps us there. As we introduce new products, we have the opportunity to go renegotiate existing suppliers for better pricing. We're looking at every penny, like Vaibhav and Elon mentioned. Just to give you an example, our inbound logistics cost has come down by 22% year-over-year. And this is because of optimization on using returnable packaging as opposed to cardboard, which is even better for the environment, optimizing trucking routes, negotiating better pricing with shipping companies, with trucking companies, going with full truckloads and just doing that, sort of. The bigger we become, the more we put thought into these things and the more efficient we become as a result of it. So those work streams are going to continue.
Unidentified Company Representative:
And we are also getting into the tiers of supply chain to see if there are opportunities, getting into the tier 2, tier 3, tier 4 levels, and then negotiate those pricing as well to get more efficiency out of the system.
Karn Budhiraj:
And then on the design side, we're not static, right, like, especially in areas where the technology is still improving rapidly. Power electronics is a great example. We continue to bring improvements there that are like fundamentals, sort of driven from the device up, that result in cost reductions, generation over generation. And they don't only go into the new vehicles, they come to the old vehicles as well. So that's closer to what you were talking about with the microelectronic space. Some of that exists in the vehicle.
Lars Moravy:
Yeah. Certainly our car is more computer than car in many ways and has a lot of new tech over the last 100 years of automotive production that everyone's trying to scrape pennies from.
Elon Musk:
We have a crazy amount of compute in our cars compared to anyone else. It's like orders of magnitude.
Karn Budhiraj:
And we get to ride that down, right?
Elon Musk:
1,000 times more. Some nutty number.
Karn Budhiraj:
I mean, if I just look at the main microcontroller that makes the motor truck go, for example, when I think about what it costs when we stuck it in a roadster in 2006, it costs now. There's no comparison. So we've definitely been riding that electronics cost wave.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Lars Moravy:
And then even on the like non -- what you call traditional vehicle side, we do things that no other automakers do to bring cost down through breaking down the way structures are built and the way we put our cars together. And I think that mindset that we have is very much closer to the microprocessor or power electronics industry than the automotive industry.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Pierre, do you have a follow-up?
Pierre Ferragu:
Great. Yes, a quick one. You mentioned this phase in which you are between two big growth periods. I'd love to hear you about what you consider the size of your addressable market. With the portfolio you have today, like the three, the Y, the X, and the S, what's your estimate of your addressable market? You're shipping like, probably about like a 2 million unit run rate today and given the price points of these cars, what kind of market share of what you address with these cars do you think you've already achieved today?
Elon Musk:
I don't know, if anybody -- I actually don't think we have a firm idea of this. That's hard to say exactly.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yeah. This -- I won't say there's -- I mean, one way to think about it is look at the automotive industry as well. EVs still contribute a very small market share. So, yes, our goal is to try and take as much market share out of that pie. But do I have a specific number to give you? I don't think we can say that with certainty.
Andrew Baglino:
And it's a growing pie as well.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Exactly
Andrew Baglino:
It's like its 9% today, but it could be 20% in a couple of years or in the future.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Andrew Baglino:
Certainly, like the way we've looked at it, and we've always said this, it's not about how many EVs we sell. It's how many great cars you can sell, how many vehicles you can sell. And that market is 100 million a year, and we're barely 2% of that. I still think there's 98% more to get.
Elon Musk:
I mean, it's worth noting that if you look at, say, the average selling price of the other top-selling vehicles in the world, they are much lower priced than a Model Y.
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah.
Elon Musk:
So like Toyota RAV4.
Andrew Baglino:
Corolla.
Elon Musk:
Corolla, Honda Civic, that kind of thing. They're much lower priced than ours. So people are really stretching their wallets to be able to afford a Tesla. It's quite a difficult thing for them to do, and remarkable that it's the best-selling car in unit volume, despite being much more expensive than other high-volume cars.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next analyst. The next question comes from Adam Jonas from Morgan Stanley.
Adam Jonas:
Hey, everybody. So I can't wait to see the Optimus lab. I'm sure everybody on this call feels the same way. Your last AI Day, Elon, was September 2022. Can we expect a Tesla AI Day this year? It seems like a lot has changed in that realm. And is this year the time?
Elon Musk:
Yeah, it's a good question. We have found that when we do these AI Days, some of our competitors literally look at what we do on a frame-by-frame basis.
Adam Jonas:
They do.
Elon Musk:
And then we find these things being copied.
Karn Budhiraj:
Same thing with Battery Day.
Elon Musk:
Same thing with Battery Day. So we have to be a little cautious about revealing the exact recipe of the secret sauce. But I think some kind of update would be good to do. I'll talk it over with the team, and yeah, I think we might do something later this year. Our main goal with these AI Day things is recruiting and to sort of change the perception of Tesla as people thinking of Tesla as a car company when they should be thinking of Tesla as an AI robotics company.
Adam Jonas:
Maybe as a follow-up. Elon, I'd love your thoughts on the topic of China-based OEMs expanding into Western markets. As the China market kind of gets saturated and there's a tremendous growth in the supply, how much success should Tesla investors allow for this competition to achieve in Western markets? And can you envision a scenario where Tesla could partner with a Chinese OEM to help accelerate sustainable transport in markets like Europe and the United States? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Well, our observation is generally that the Chinese car companies are the most competitive car companies in the world. So I think they will have significant success outside of China depending on what kind of tariffs or trade barriers are established. Frankly, I think if there are not trade barriers established, they will pretty much demolish most other car companies in the world. So they're extremely good. We don't see an obvious opportunity to partner. Certainly, we're happy to, except on the supercharger front. We're obviously happy to give any electric car company access to our supercharger network. We're also happy to license full self-driving, perhaps license other technologies, and anything that could be helpful in advancing the sustainable energy revolution.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the next question comes from Dan Levy from Barclays.
Dan Levy:
Hi. Good evening. Thank you for taking the questions. First, I'm wondering if you can just walk through some of the gating factors required to unlock your next-gen platform. You talked about a number of cost initiatives back at the Investor Day a year ago, things in manufacturing and powertrain. Maybe you can just give us a sense of where these initiatives stand. And do you believe -- we know that there's a number of new features and technologies in Cybertruck, things like 48 volts architecture, really employing your 4680 batteries. To what extent do you think Cybertruck is really a proving ground for the next-gen platform and is really going to be a gating factor to unlocking the cost reductions needed for the next-gen platform?
Lars Moravy:
Yeah, I don't think that anything on Cybertruck should be considered gating for the next-gen platform. We're obviously doing a lot of manufacturing innovation, as Elon said, for a next-generation vehicle. When you do something at that scale, you have to prove it out. You don't just throw it on the line and just build it. So we're going through those validation phases for all those new manufacturing technologies now. Sure, 48 volts was definitely something we wanted to carry forward, and it's something we hope the industry adopts as well. We're also open to partnering.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. 48 volts.
Lars Moravy:
On that if everyone wants to do that.
Elon Musk:
Certainly. Man, the people that really know that this is like the inside baseball thing. But man, 48, it's so high time that the water industry moved from the 12 -- the random number of 12 volts to 48 volts.
Lars Moravy:
Random number of 48 volts.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Well, it's much less random.
Lars Moravy:
Slightly less random based on human injury, but...
Elon Musk:
I mean dramatically reduces the amount of copper you need in the vehicle and also moving to sort of higher bandwidth communications, sort of ethernet level communications versus CAN Bus, which is pretty...
Lars Moravy:
Pretty slow.
Elon Musk:
Pretty slow. So it's really just bringing cars to...
Lars Moravy:
The 21st century.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, pretty much.
Lars Moravy:
So, certainly like...
Elon Musk:
It's not exact -- it's like normal for a laptop. Yeah.
Lars Moravy:
Certainly bringing that like is an evolution in our architectures of vehicles, but it's not gating by any means. The gating work is just to finish the design and manufacturing of the car, test them out and get them going.
Karn Budhiraj:
Yeah, programs and execution mode, right?
Lars Moravy:
Yeah.
Karn Budhiraj:
So it's talking about like, tooling lead time, manufacturing equipment lead time, factory lead time, and executing those programs.
Elon Musk:
There's a lot of specialized machines that make the machine for a next-gen vehicle. So these are not machines you can just order from anyone. You have to design a machine that has never existed to build a car in a way that has never existed.
Karn Budhiraj:
Yeah. So you don't just have like a design validation phase, but you have an equipment design validation phase as well.
Elon Musk:
It does make it very hard to copy us because you have to copy the machine that makes the machine that makes the machine.
Lars Moravy:
Talk about tiers.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, exactly. Manufacturing exception. So I do think it's quite a powerful sustainable advantage because there just is no place to go to order the machines that make our next-gen car that don't exist.
Dan Levy:
Great. Thank you. As a follow-up, your release does not mention Dojo. So if you could just provide us an update on where Dojo stands and at what point you expect Dojo to be a resource in improving FSD or do you think that you now have sufficient supply of Nvidia GPUs needed for the training of the system?
Elon Musk:
I mean, the AI hardware question is, that is a deep one. So we're obviously hedging our bets here with significant orders of Nvidia GPUs. Or GPU is the wrong word. There really needs to be -- there's no -- it doesn't -- you can't produce graphics, so that's what. It's not a graphics processing unit. Neural net processing unit or something like that. Yeah. GPU is a funny word, like Vestigial. A lot of our progress in self-driving is training limited, something that's important with training, it's much like a human. The more effort you put into training, the less effort you need in inference. So just like a person, if you train in a subject, sort of classic 10,000 hours, the less mental effort it takes to do something. If you remember when you first started to drive, how much of your mental capacity it took to drive. It was -- you had to be focused completely on driving. Then after you've been driving for many years, it only takes a little bit of your mind to drive and you can think about other things and still drive safely. So the more training you do, the more efficient it is at the inference level. So we do need a lot of training. And we're pursuing the dual path of Nvidia and Dojo. But I would think of Dojo as a long shot. It's a long shot worth taking because the payoff is potentially very high. But it's not something that is a high probability. It's not like a sure thing at all. It's a high-risk, high-payoff program. Dojo is working, and it is doing training jobs, and we are scaling it up, and we have plans for Dojo 1.5, Dojo 2, Dojo 3, and whatnot. So I think it's got potential, but I can't emphasize enough. High risk, high payoff. So I think it still makes sense given the -- even if it's a low probability of success -- I'm laboring the subject. It's a very interesting program. It has the potential for something special. There's also our inference hardware in the car. So we're now on what's called Hardware 4, but it's actually Version 2 of the Tesla-designed AI inference chip. And we're about to complete design of -- the terminology is a bit confusing. We're about to complete design of Hardware 5, which is actually Version 3 of the Tesla-designed chip. Because the Version 1 was Mobileye, Version 2 was Nvidia, and then Version 3 was Tesla. And we're making gigantic improvements from Hardware 3 to Hardware 4 to Hardware 5. I mean, there's a potentially interesting play where when cars are not in use in the future that the in-car computer can do generalized AI tasks, can run a sort of GPT-4 or GPT-3 or something like that. If you've got tens of millions of vehicles out there, even in a robotaxi scenario where they're in heavy use, maybe they're used 50 out of 168 hours, that still leaves well over 100 hours of time available -- of compute hours. It's possible with the right architectural decisions that Tesla may in the future have more compute than everyone else combined.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question comes from Colin Langan from Wells Fargo.
Colin Langan:
Great. Thanks for taking my questions. As we're thinking about going into 2024, the press release talks about hitting 36,000 or slightly above in Q4. And the comments in the release talk about approaching the natural limits. And it sounds like you're continuing to try to whittle that away, but that sort of implies there's not much left. In addition, you have the hourly wage increase. I guess we'll add to that into next year. And I thought you said raw material costs are kind or -- that benefit is sort of almost played out. So is there an opportunity to continue to go below the 36,000, or should we kind of be modeling that it kind of stays at this level into '24?
Vaibhav Taneja:
We are definitely aware of the cost increases which are coming through because of the wage increases. But like I said, we keep looking at other cost opportunities and try and figure out where else can we cut down. So there is definitely more opportunity to bring down costs further. I won't specifically guide to a number which we will try and get to, but there's definitely more opportunity there.
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah. We're chasing lots of cost opportunities on the design side still for 2024, north of eight figures is what we're just in my organization, and Lars has got a bunch. And then from a commodities perspective, it's such a long cycle time through the whole material supply chain that even with what we've already seen to this point...
Vaibhav Taneja:
There's more to come.
Andrew Baglino:
There's more to come on commodities reductions.
Lars Moravy:
And there's still some tailwind left on the commodities.
Andrew Baglino:
That's what I mean.
Lars Moravy:
Aluminum and steel.
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah and battery material.
Elon Musk:
It boggles my mind to think that if we make a 1% improvement in costs, that's $1 billion. So it's like, on average, if we reduce the cost by one penny, $1 billion.
Andrew Baglino:
What?
Elon Musk:
And we started off that long ago that we were only making like 10 cars a week. And yeah, so where does it lead ultimately? With good execution, like I said, it's not a slam dunk, but if we execute very well, I think Tesla could be the most valuable company in the world.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Colin. Do you have a follow-up question?
Colin Langan:
Yeah. Just a quick follow-up. In the commentary, you mentioned the taxes would go to the S&P 500 level. I think you've been trending slightly below 10%. S&P, I think, is typically 25%-ish. Is that going to -- should we expect that to jump right up next year when we're modeling next year or would it be like a gradual change over the next few years and any cash impact from that tax change as well that we should be considering?
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yeah. So there's no impact on cash taxes from the release of the valuation amounts, which I spoke about. What it does is, it's how you account for taxes on your books? So it's basically an accounting change wherein there are certain jurisdictions because we had enough NOLs, etc., wherein we didn't have to accrue book taxes. Now that the valuation allowance has been released and we have recognized deferred tax assets on the books, that means your tax rate immediately goes up.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. I think that's all the time we have for today. Thank you so much for all of your questions, and we'll speak to you again in three months. Thank you. Bye-bye.
Elon Musk:
Thank you.
Elon Musk:
[Call Starts Abruptly]…of new factories and we believe there’s still meaningful room for improvement there. Regarding Autopilot and AI, our vehicles are now driven over 0.5 billion miles with FSD beta, full self-driving beta, and that number is growing rapidly. We recently completed a 10,000 GPU cluster of H100s. We think probably bring it into operation faster than anyone’s ever brought that much compute per unit time into production, since training is the fundamental limiting factor on progress with full self-driving and vehicle autonomy. We’re also seeing significant promise with FSD version 12. This is the end-to-end AI where it’s photon count in, controls out. Really you can think of it as there’s just a large bitstream coming in and a tiny bitstream going out, compressing reality into a very small set of outputs, which is actually kind of how humans work. The vast majority of human data input is optics from our eyes. And so, we are like the car, photons in, controls out with neural nets, just neural nets in the middle. So, interesting to think about that. We’ll continue to invest significantly in AI development, as this is really the mass game changer. And I mean success in this regard in the long-term I think has the potential to make Tesla the most valuable company in the world by far. If you have fully autonomous cars at scale and fully autonomous humanoid robots that are truly useful, it’s not clear what the limit is. Regarding energy storage, we deployed 4 gigawatt hours of energy of storage products in Q3. And as this business grows, the energy division is becoming our highest margin business. Energy and service now contribute over $0.5 billion to quarterly profit. The Cybertruck, I know a lot of people are excited about the Cybertruck. I am too. I’ve driven the car. It’s an amazing product. I do want to emphasize that there will be enormous challenges in reaching volume production with the Cybertruck, and then in making a Cybertruck cash flow positive. This is simply normal for when you’ve got a product with a lot of new technology or any new vehicle, brand new vehicle program, but especially one that is as different and advanced as the Cybertruck, you will have problems proportionate to how many new things you’re trying to solve at scale. So, I just want to emphasize that while I think this is potentially our best product ever and I think it is our best product ever, it is going to be -- require immense work to reach volume production and be cash flow positive at a price that people can afford. Often people do not understand what is truly hard. That’s why I say prototypes are easy, production is hard. People think it’s the idea, or you make a prototype, you design a car. And as soon as they’re designing a car, it’s just anyone can do it, it does require taste, it does require effort to design a prototype. But it’s difficult to going from a prototype to volume production, it’s like 10,000% harder to get to volume production than to make a prototype in the first place, and then it is even harder than that to reach positive cash flow. That is why there have not been new car startups that have been successful for a 100 years apart from Tesla. So, I just want to temper expectations for Cybertruck. It’s a great product, but financially it will take, I don’t know, a year to 18 months before it is a significant positive cash flow contributor. I wish there was some way for that to be different, but that’s my best guess. The demand is off the charts. We have over 1 million people who’ve reserved the car. So it’s not a demand issue, but we have to make it and we need to make it at a price that people can afford, insanely difficult things. In conclusion, we continue to focus on ramping production while maintaining positive cash flow and we continue to target -- expect to have around 1.8 million vehicle deliveries, as stated earlier this year. The Tesla AI team is I think one of the world’s best, and I think it is actually by far the world’s best when it comes to real world AI. I’ll say that again, Tesla has the best real world AI team on earth, period, and it’s getting better. And lastly, I wanted to thank all of our employees who are making a lot of extra effort during uncertain times. Thank you very much for your hard work and the impact that you’re making.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much, Elon. And our CFO, Vaibhav, has some opening remarks as well.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Thanks, Martin. Vehicle deliveries in Q3 outpaced production, and we had yet another record quarter of profitability in our energy business. Congratulations to the Tesla team for the continued focus on operational excellence as we navigate through a period of economic uncertainty, higher interest rates, and shifting consumer sentiment. As Elon mentioned, our Q3 operational and financial performance was impacted by planned downtimes for our factory upgrades. This was necessary to allow for further factory improvements and production rate increases. Despite such factory shutdowns, our cost per vehicle decreased to approximately $37,500. We saw sequential decreases in material cost and freight. Reducing the cost of our vehicles is our top priority. On the operating expenses front, R&D expenses continued to rise due to Cybertruck prototype builds and pilot production testing combined with spend on AI technologies like full self-driving, Optimus and Dojo. We have and will continue to make investments in these areas, and hence our capital expenditure and R&D will continue to grow in the near term. However, our focus is to continue making investments through positive cash flow from operations. This year itself, we have generated operating cash flows of approximately [$8.9 billion] (ph) and free cash flows of approximately $2.3 billion. Our other businesses are becoming more prominent on a standalone basis with energy business leading the charge, primarily from the growth in Megapack deployments. Our services and other businesses on a year-on-year basis also continue to show positive momentum as we benefit from our growing fleet. As regards our pricing strategy, in addition to what we have shared before, I want to elaborate that most car buying happens with one or other form of financing, and hence we also view pricing in terms of monthly costs for the customer. And therefore, as interest costs in the U.S. have risen substantially, it has required us to adjust the price of our vehicles to keep the monthly cost in parity. We’ve tried to offset such adjustments via focus on reducing costs. However, there is an inherent lag in cost reductions, which in turn impacts margins. To that extent, we recently announced a partner vehicle leasing program in the U.S. whereby you can get a standard Model Y for as low as $399 a month. In conclusion, as we navigate through a challenging economic environment, we’re focused on reducing costs, maximizing delivery volumes, and continuing making investments in the future, in particular, AI and other next generation platform. We believe this strategy positions us well for the long term. Once again, I would like to thank the Tesla team for their efforts in the last quarter.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And now let’s go to investor questions. The first investor question comes from Craig. How many Cybertruck deliveries do you anticipate for 2024?
Elon Musk:
It’s difficult to make an accurate guess at this point. Going back to what I said earlier that the ramp is going to be extremely difficult. And like I said, there’s no way around that. If you try to make -- if we just try to do some copycat vehicle design, of which there are literally 200 models that are slight variations on a theme in the combustion engine world, distinctions without a difference, then it’s really not that hard. But if you want to do something radical and innovative and something really special, like the Cybertruck, it is extremely difficult because there’s nothing to copy. You have to invent not just the car, but the way to make the car. So, the more uncharted the territory, the less predictable the outcome. Now, I can say that -- if you say, well, where will things end up? I think we’ll end up with roughly a 0.25 million Cybertrucks a year, I don’t think we’re going to reach that output rate next year. I think we’ll probably reach it sometime in 2025. That’s my best guess.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The second question is, can you provide a progress update on the 4680 cell, particularly progress towards performance improvements and cost savings outlined on Battery Day? Thank you.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Sure thing, Martin. 4680 cell production in Texas increased 40% quarter-over-quarter. Congrats to the Texas team for producing their 20 million cell off of line one. Texas is now our primary 4680 facility. We’re heavily focused on quality. Scrap is down 40% quarter-over-quarter. With the increased volume and yield improvements, cell costs consistently improved month-over-month within the quarter, although we have a lot more work to do to achieve our steady state goals. And that is our priority. The Cybertruck cell with 10% higher energy than our Model Y cell started production on line two in Texas. This quarter we convert to building a 100% Cybertruck cells to simplify and focus the factory as we ramp all four lines in Phase 1 over the next three quarters. Phase 2 of the Texas 4680 facility is currently under construction. The additional four lines incorporate further capital efficiencies over Phase 1, and our target is for them to start producing in late 2024. Lastly, in Kato, we’re retooling to enable large scale pallet runs of our next generation cell designs. Kato’s long-term goal is to be the launch pad for new cells, one generation ahead of our mass production facilities, enabling faster iteration and smoother ramp ups of new designs.
A – Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question from institutional investors. Could you please provide an update on capacity expansion plans for company’s factories in Berlin and Austin, and the opening schedule of Gigafactory Mexico?
A – Unidentified Company Representative:
Berlin and Austin factories, the current priority is actually maximize the output from our existing lines, by laser focus on efficiency improvement. As always, maintaining a high quality and the reducing per unit cost will be as critical as growing the production volume. For Mexico, we’re working on infrastructure and factory design in parallel with the engineering and development of the new production that we’ll be manufacturing there. That’s what I can share for now.
Elon Musk:
In Mexico we’re laying the groundwork to begin construction and doing all the long lead items. But I think we want to just get a sense for what the global economy is like before we go full tilt on the Mexico factory. I’m worried about the high interest rate environment that we’re in. I just can’t emphasize this enough that the vast majority of people buying a car is about the monthly payment. And as interest rates rise, the proportion of that monthly payment that is interest increases naturally. So, if interest rates remain high or if they go even higher, it’s that much harder for people to buy the car, they simply cannot afford it. And we are tracking, I believe at this point for Model Y to be the best selling car on earth, but not just in revenue, but in unit volume. If you compare that to the other vehicles that are number two and number three and whatnot, they cost much less than our car. So, we’re just hitting law of large numbers situations here. I know people want to us advertising, we are advertising. I think there’s something to be gained on the advertising front. I don’t think it’s nothing. But informing people of a car that is great, but they cannot afford doesn’t really help. So that is really the thing that must be solved is to make the car affordable or the average person cannot buy it for any amount of money or they can’t afford it. So, this is big deal.
Martin Viecha:
The next question is, when do you expect Model 3 Highland to be available in the U.S.? I just wanted to address that unfortunately we don’t answer product related questions and timings on earnings calls. So let’s go to the next one. Current sell side consensus assumes that Tesla will deliver 2.3 million vehicles in 2024, representing 28% growth versus 2023 guidance. Is this growth rate achievable without any mass market launches in 2024? And when does Tesla expect to return to its 50% long-term CAGR?
Vaibhav Taneja:
When we look at 2024, there are a lot of moving pieces. I just talked about what is happening in the macroeconomic environment. So, we’re focused on growing our volumes in a very cost efficient manner and are carefully reviewing all our options, and we’ll be able to provide a much more meaningful update at our next earnings call.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, at the risk of stating the obvious, it is not possible to have a compound growth rate of 50% forever, or you will exceed the mass of the known universe. I think we will grow very rapidly, much faster than any other car company on earth by far.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Next question is do you have an approximate timeline in mind for the robotaxi driven or non-driven? What excites you most about how this project is progressing?
Elon Musk:
Well, robotaxi is like necessarily non-driven. I guess, I’m very excited about our progress with autonomy, the end-to-end, nothing but nets self-driving software is amazing. It drives me all around Austin with no interventions. So, it’s clearly the right move. So, it’s really pretty amazing. And obviously, that same software and approach will enable Optimus to do useful things and enable Optimus to learn how to do things simply by looking. So extremely exciting in the long term. As I mentioned before, given that economic output is a number of people times productivity, if you no longer have a constraint on people, effectively, you’ve got a humanoid robot that can do as much as you’d like, your economy is wisely infinite or infinite for all intents and purposes. So, I don’t think anyone is going to do it better than Tesla, not by a long shot. Boston Dynamics is impressive, but their robot lacks a brain or like the Wizard of Oz, whatever. Yes, lacks a brain. And then you also need to be able to design the humanoid robot in such a way that it can be mass manufactured. And then at some point, the robots will manufacture the robots. Now obviously, we need to make sure that it’s a good place for humans in that future. We do not create some variance of the terminator outcome. So, we’re going to put a lot of effort into localized control of the humanoid robot. So basically, anyone will be able to shut it off locally, and you can’t change that, even if you put -- like a software update, you can’t change that. It has to be hard-coded.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, why was the price dropped on FSD if it is getting better and robotaxi is expected so soon?
Elon Musk:
Well, we just wanted to make it more affordable as more people try it. Yes, I think, over time, the price of FSD will increase proportionate to its value. So we regard the current price as a kind of a temporary low.
Martin Viecha:
The next question is again on FSD. Mercedes is accepting legal liability for when its Level 3 autonomous driving system drive pilot is active. Is Tesla planning to accept legal liability for FSD? And if so, when?
Elon Musk:
Well, there’s a lot of people that assume we have legal liability judging by the lawsuits. We’re certainly not being let that off the hook on that front, whether we’d like to or wouldn’t like to do.
Unidentified Company Representative:
I mean I think it’s important to remember for everyone that Mercedes’ system is limited to roads in Nevada and some certain cities in California, doesn’t work in the snow or the fog. It must have a lead car in plains, only 40 miles per hour. Our system is meant to be holistic and drive in any conditions, so we obviously have a much more capable approach. But with those kind of limitations, it’s really not very useful.
Elon Musk:
No, I think some people understand the profundity of the Tesla AI system. It’s very, very few. It’s basically Baby AGI. It has to understand reality in order to drive, Baby AGI.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question on Optimus. Will Optimus be working on Gigafactory lines next year? If so, how many would you guess will be deployed?
Elon Musk:
I think at this point, we are not ready to discuss details of the Optimus program, but we will make -- provide periodic updates online. So, as you can see, we’re -- Optimus a year ago could barely walk and now it can do yoga. So, a few years from now, it can probably do ballet.
Martin Viecha:
Sounds good. And the last question from investors is Neural net path planning represents a significant advance in capability and safety for FSD. What steps is Tesla taking to make this technology available outside the U.S.?
Elon Musk:
Yes. Our approach has been to try to get it -- like the more places we’re trying to make it work, the harder the problem is. So, the reason we don’t do it in all countries simultaneously is that it would take much longer to make it work anywhere at all. So, that’s why it’s currently just North America. And also for most parts of the world, you have to get approval before deploying things, whereas in the U.S., you can deploy things at risk or at least you take liability for what you’re deploying. So, it’s -- most countries require some sort of extensive approval program. So, we only want to go through that extensive approval program when we think it’s kind of ready for prime time in that country. I apologize it’s not in those countries, but we keep plenty of ways to make it better. And it really needs to drive such that it exceeds the -- even unsupervised, significantly exceeds the probability of entry of a human or significantly better, a lower probability of entry than a human by far. I think we’re tracking to that point very quickly. Obviously, in the past, I’ve been overly optimistic about this. The reason I’ve been overly optimistic is that the progress tends to sort of look like a log curve, which is that you have kind of rapid initial improvements that if you were to extrapolate that rapid fairly linear rate of improvement, you get to self-driving quite quickly, but then the rate of improvement curves over logarithmically as such to asymptote. That’s not happened several times. I would characterize our progress in real world AI as a series of stacked log curve. I think that’s also true in other parts of AI, like LLMs and whatnot, a series of stacked log curves. Each log curve is higher than the last one. So if you keep stacking them, keep stacking logs, eventually get to FSD.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let’s now go to analyst questions. The first question comes from Will Stein from Truist.
Will Stein:
We learned earlier on the call, it sounds like you don’t think the truck will ramp to significant volume until its third year of production. Should we have a similar anticipation for the ramp of the next-gen platform, or is there any reason that we should be maybe more optimistic or pessimistic about the ramp profile there?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, to be clear, it’s not really the third year of production. It’s kind of like the 18th month of production is roughly my guess. So, it’s just that they happen -- it will happen -- is that the -- it starts this year, spans next year and gets to 2025. So technically, there are three calendar years in there, but there’s actually only 18 months, not three years. I would be very disappointed if it took us -- and that would be shocking if it took us three years. But 18 months from initial deliveries to have -- to reach volume and reach prosperity with an immense -- I can’t tell you how much the blood, sweat and tears level required to achieve that is just staggering. I have been through it many times. Then, here we go again.
Will Stein:
Similar path for the next-gen platform?
Unidentified Company Representative:
I mean, there’s like unique complexity to Cybertruck.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean Cybertruck is -- yes. I mean, we dug our own grave with Cybertruck. Nobody -- generally, everybody digs a grave better than themselves. And so it is -- Cybertruck’s one of those special products that comes along only once in a long while. And special products that come along once in a long while are just incredibly difficult to bring to market, to reach volume, to be prosperous. It’s fundamental to the nature of the newness. So now the sort of high-volume, low-cost smaller vehicle is actually much more conventional.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes. In terms of like the technologies we’re putting into it, we didn’t have to invent full hard stainless steel or have mega 9,000-ton castings or the largest hot stamping in the world or new [Technical Difficulty] are quite in the same way as the Cybertruck. I think it will be quite a fast ramp. As I was just saying, we’re doing everything possible to simplify that vehicle in order to achieve a units per minute level that is unheard of in the auto industry.
Unidentified Company Representative:
I mean, the single location makes it easier to automate. It also makes it lower cost. Yes, that’s intrinsically lower cost.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Let’s be clear, it will be cool, but it’s utilitarian. It’s not meant to be -- fill you with magic. It can get you from A to B. It will be still beautiful. But it’s utility.
Unidentified Company Representative:
That’s not 14 inches of [indiscernible] suspension.
Elon Musk:
Yes. So I mean, the Cybertruck has a lot of bells and whistles.
Martin Viecha:
All right. Thank you very much. Let’s go to Pierre Ferragu from New Street Research.
Pierre Ferragu:
I have first like a follow-up question on FSD and pricing and adoption. So, I agree with you that as FSD improves, we should see its value increasing. But I guess, like the ultimate values of FSD, which is to be able to handle like a robotaxi is not going to necessarily interest everybody, and you have a bit of a degraded version that would be like a chauffeur service where the car drives by itself, but you still have to be in the car and around. And then there is like the hands-on -- eyes-on version of the service. And I guess, there should be like much lower cost, lower feature kind of variance of the service that could have a very large penetration on your installed base and more expensive one that would remain at a lower penetration level. So, I’m just wondering if you’re taking that -- and last but not least, like the simplest version of FSD available and are going to work from a technical perspective, probably before like the ultimate robotaxi version can work if ever. And so I’m wondering how you take that into account and how you’re thinking like the financial contribution of FSD over time and whether you could evolve your pricing along that kind of tiers to increase adoption.
Elon Musk:
Yes. A fully autonomous vehicle, I think, Pierre, your -- sort of the economics of autonomous vehicle are truly astounding in a positive way. When you look at passenger vehicles today, they only get about 10 to 12 hours of usage per week. That’s -- if you drive 1.5-hour a day on average, that’s roughly 10 hours a week out of 168 hours. And then there’s also you’re going to have parking and insurance. You got to take care of the car. It’s like there’s a lot of overhead. So I mean, yes, it’s like the economics of the system are just insanely positive given that the car -- like all of the cars we’re making and have made for a while, we believe, are capable of full autonomy. So then if you’re able to say increase the utility of that car by a factor of 5, which only means that you’re -- it’s being used for maybe 50 hours a week out of 168, so you still notice -- you’re still assuming -- that still assumes less than 1/3 of the hours of the week is doing something useful. You’ve increased the value of that by 5, but it still costs the same, like you have something -- then we’re a hardware company with software margins.
Martin Viecha:
Pierre, do you have a follow-up?
Pierre Ferragu:
Yes, I have actually a follow-up on different topic for you that I have if that’s okay. It’s about like your gross margin in the quarter. Could you give us a sense of like in how the gross margin evolved sequentially, how much was the impact of idle cost? How much was like the sequential benefit, I imagine, of production ramping at Berlin and Austin? And then I saw like this massive jump in energy storage, very strong positive surprise. So, if you can give us the background on that and tell us how we should think about that gross margin going forward.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Thanks for the question. So, in terms of -- you have few different aspects of your question. So if I just look at from Q3 perspective, obviously, factory idle time had an impact. It did impact by -- and I won’t give you the exact percentage, but it had a decent impact for the quarter. And when you look at the other pieces, which we are trying to do, we did see certain of our other factories ramping up pretty well, right? And they actually contributed pretty well to the margin for this quarter. In fact, one of the factories came pretty close to in terms of per unit cost to where we are for our other established factory, which is Fremont. So that was a positive in the quarter. When it comes to energy margins, Megapack deployment was the key driver there. And that product has done well. I mean, on the cost curve also, we’ve been able to do a lot there. But I do want to caution that Megapack deployments are a bit lumpy. So yes, we had a great quarter this period. But depending upon where we are trying to deploy that product in different markets, you would see periods where there would be downward pressure on deployment because of us trying to get the product to that base way…
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes, product in transit. Yes.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. Let’s go to Rod Lache from Wolfe Research.
Rod Lache:
Really nice to see the rate of vehicle cost improvement despite the downtime that you took. You’ve taken now about $2,000 out of the average vehicle costs over the past year. Can you give us maybe a sense of the rate of improvement that you see from the changes that you alluded to, the factory changes you alluded to? Is there a way maybe to convey the speed of improvement on your existing product from here? And then related to that, can you share the timing of your next-gen -- the lower-priced product that you talked about earlier this year?
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes. So just in terms of product margins, there are lots of puts and takes when you look at this. There are certain things which we control, and there are certain things which we don’t control. We get -- we expect that we’ll get some benefits from our cost reduction efforts, which are all underway. So on the other hand, we just finished our factory upgrades late in Q3. Some of these factories are still in the early ramp phase in Q4. We’re still not up to where we want those factories to be. So, they will impact in the near term. Plus, like Elon mentioned, we’re going to be ramping Cybertruck, which is going to be another headwind, which we will be dealing with. On top of all that, there’s overall uncertainty in the macroeconomic environment, which even makes it harder to predict precisely as to where we land. But yes, this is something which -- it’s an evolving thing which we’re observing every day and reacting to it on a daily basis.
Unidentified Company Representative:
I would just say that on the cost reduction efforts, like we are not -- we are unflagging in our pursuit of additional cost downs for 2024. We do have a good pipeline of them and work on both the engineering side and the factory operations side. And our intention is to like maintain or exceed the trend that you saw, trying as hard as we possibly can.
Rod Lache:
The timing of the next-gen product, can you share that?
Elon Musk:
Not at this time.
Rod Lache:
Okay. And just as a follow-up, obviously, price is also a driver of demand, but that’s obviously not happening in a vacuum. And you mentioned that -- I think you mentioned that at some point during this call that you’re also maybe hitting the law of large numbers on some of your products. Can you just share how you’re thinking about price elasticity just at this point in this macro environment? And any thoughts along those lines?
Elon Musk:
I think that there’s very significant price elasticity. I mean, to be totally frank, if our car costs the same as a RAV4, nobody would buy a RAV4 or at least they’re very unlikely to. It’s worth noting that a lot of these incentives, like the tax credit and whatnot, they’re actually very difficult for the average person to access because they -- most people do not have $10,000 or even $7,500, burning a hole in their bank account. A lot of -- a large number of people are living paycheck to paycheck, and with a lot of debt. They’ve got credit card debt, mortgage debt. So, that’s reality for most people. It’s sometimes difficult for people who are high income and I’d say high to be like someone who’s earning over $200,000 a year to understand what life is like for someone who is earning $50,000 or $60,000 or $70,000 a year, which is most people. So like for a lot of people, like this tax credit just -- they can’t front $7,500 for 18 months or even 6 months to get -- for the tax credit, and they actually don’t, in some case, even have that $7,500 in taxes. So, it’s really just the best regard to people is how much money do they have to pay immediately and how much per month. That’s it. I think you stop right there. And our car is still much more expensive than a RAV4 when you look at it that way.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Now one other thing which I’ll add, when you look at car buying in general, we’re trying to get to the next set of EV adapters.
Elon Musk:
Not an EV adapter. Just who wants a great car.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Exactly.
Elon Musk:
It’s not -- so now you get things like -- honestly, I would say it’s like -- somewhat correlates with why doesn’t everyone work from home crowd. I’m like -- I mean this is like some real Marie Antoinette vibes from people who say why is there no work from home. Like what about all the people that have to come to the factory and fill the cars or that all people that have to go to the restaurant and make your food and deliver your food. It’s like what are you talking about, you -- I mean, how detached from reality does the work from home crowd have to be? While they take advantage of all those who do -- who cannot work from home. So, I mean, you have to say like why did I sleep in the factory so many times, because it mattered. So I just can’t emphasize again how important cost is. It’s not an optional thing for most people, it is a necessary thing. We have to make our cars more affordable that people can buy it. And I keep harping on this interest thing, but I mean it just raises the cost of the car. I mean, we’re looking an internal analysis, which we think is more or less on track that when you look at the cost -- or the price reductions we’ve made in, say, the Model Y and you compare that to how much people’s monthly payment has risen due to interest rates, the price of the Model Y is almost unchanged.
Vaibhav Taneja:
If you factor in the...
Elon Musk:
Yes, which is what I’m trying to say. The thing that matters is the monthly -- it’s how much money do they have to put down and do they literally have that in their bank account or their check balance and then what is the monthly payment. And it doesn’t matter how -- if that monthly payment is principal interest or whatever, it’s just a number, and that number has to not cause their bank account to go negative. That’s it. So going from near zero interest rates to kind of the current very high interest rates, the actual monthly payment is basically the same. It’s just a bunch more of it is going to interest. And there are some incremental challenges beyond that, which is the difficulty of getting credit at all has increased. And so, the number of people who simply cannot get credit, period, even if they’ve got a job and everything is solid, the banks are a little gun-shy on handing out credit given that a bunch of them kicked the bucket earlier this year.
Unidentified Company Representative:
There’s also just fewer options, even if they planned out credit, there’s fewer banks to go there.
Elon Musk:
Digital banks still exist. Well, if your bank does not exist, you have to establish a relationship with a new bank. And so a lot of regional banks are died, and I mean even Credit Suisse, I mean, geez, that was a shocker. A 160-year-old-ish Swiss institution, it doesn’t exist anymore. That’s mind blowing. And I think there’s still quite a few shoes to drop on the bad credit situation. I mean, commercial real estate obviously is in terrible shape. Credit card debt has been rising significantly. The credit card interest rates are usurious. It’s over 20% interest rates, meaning like -- which over time is just it becomes obviously extremely punishing because if somebody’s paying 20% interest on their credit cards, means they cannot pay them off. If you can’t pay them off and you’re still accruing interest of 20%, you’re at best headed to a bad place.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let’s go to next question from George from Canaccord.
George Gianarikas:
Just to focus on the cost per vehicle coming down in future quarters as you discussed in your written remarks. I’m curious as to what the levers of that could be. Is it more scale, more factory utilization? Is it material cost reductions? Are there things like gigacasting? I mean, can you just kind of give us some data points to give us confidence if that’s going to come down over time. And if I can sneak one in, please, there are press reports -- and I know how perilous it is to believe some of these. But, they say that you’ve included radar as an option in some Model Ys in China. And I’m just here to ask if that’s true. And if so, why?
Elon Musk:
We’ve not included radar. We have radar as -- a Tesla designed radar is an experiment in Model S and X. That’s it. We’ll see whether that experiment is worth it, but there are no plans to integrate radar into 3 and Y. Just as humans drive well, and in fact, an excellent human driver can drive with amazing safety simply with their eyes, the car will far exceed the average human safety just with vision, far, far, far because, I mean, the car is looking at all directions all at once. We don’t have eyes at the back of our head. And the computer never gets tired and never gets distracted, get drunk, hopefully. And so, radar is -- what really matters is how much does it affect the probability of an accident. And in order for the radar to be effective, you have to be able to do radar-only braking -- you have to do actions that are radar-only. Otherwise, you get this disambiguation problem between vision and radar. That’s why we actually turned off the radar in cars historically that we had shipped, all 3 and Y used to have radar, but we turned it off because the radar actually generated more noise than signal. Now the Tesla designed radar is a high-resolution radar that has some potential to be useful, but the jury is still very much out on whether that is in fact the case.
Unidentified Company Representative:
On the cost question, I guess, from the vehicle side, like as Drew mentioned earlier, we are always trying to engineer our products to be cheaper to make and more efficient to make. That comes obviously on the engineering side as we come up with new innovations but as well on the supply chain side. With our partners, we work with them to automate some of their lines and move their bottlenecks and their high cost as well. On the logistics side, getting parts to the factory, it’s not like a one thing that -- you have to check cost everywhere and we do it ruthlessly at all times.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Operations efficiency. All of the above.
Vaibhav Taneja:
Yes. I would say there’s a whole laundry list of things, which we are chasing. We internally call it the cost attack, where we’re literally going line by line and saying how can we make it better. And it’s a grind.
Elon Musk:
It’s a grind. It’s like Game of Thrones but pennies. I mean first approximation, if you’ve got a $40,000 car, and roughly 10,000 items in that car, that means each thing, on average, costs $4. So in order to get the cost down, say, by 10%, you have to get $0.40 out of each part on average. It is a game of pennies.
Unidentified Company Representative:
We play it.
Elon Musk:
Willingly, yes. We’ve done it many, many times. And even something as simple as like a sticker, like there’s too many stickers internally in the car that nobody ever sees. There’s something as simple as a QR code. You may think, well, putting a QR code on a part. Why don’t just put them on there, it’s like, well, are we actually going to use that QR code?
Unidentified Company Representative:
That’s a penny.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. And then inevitably, sometimes the QR code doesn’t go on properly or you can’t read it properly, and it stops the line.
Unidentified Company Representative:
More than a penny.
Elon Musk:
Yes, absolutely. So chipping away, with -- I mean it is trying to -- it does feel like digging a tunnel with a spoon at times.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Very much escaping prison.
Vaibhav Taneja:
On top of it, like we said, we did some factory upgrades, so we expect volume to go up. That would also bring some savings from higher production. But then on the flip side, we’re going to be ramping a new product like Cybertruck, which we talked about. So, yes, so those are the real puts and takes what we are working for.
Elon Musk:
Yes. But there’s not like some accidently some brick of gold that we go left in the car, unfortunately. And it’s -- we’re trying to be very rigorous about improving the quality and capability of the car because it’s like any fool can reduce the cost of a car by making it worse and just deleting functionality and capability and that’s how I call this sort of any fool -- like if you want to like lose weight and you’d say, well, I need to lose over 15 pounds right away, well, you could chop your arm off, but then you’re sitting with one arm. You’re still fat. So sort of like yes, you actually have to eat less food and work out. That’s the actual way. It’s not super fun because food is delicious. And personally, I’m not -- I don’t love working out. I wish I did, but I don’t. Unless moving the mouse consists of working out, in which case, I love moving the mouse.
Martin Viecha:
All right. Let’s go to Colin Langan from Wells Fargo.
Colin Langan:
You said in the commentary that you’re not going full tilt on the plant in Mexico until there are signs that the economy is strong. Can you continue at a 50% CAGR without that plant? And where would that come from? And any color on what you mean sort of not going full tilt? Could that plant get delayed indefinitely, or what are you are kind of talking about?
Elon Musk:
No, we’re definitely making the factory in Mexico. We feel very good about that. We put a lot of effort into looking at different locations, and we feel very good about that location, and we are going to build a factory there, and it’s going to be great. The question is really just one of timing. And there’s going to be a broken record on the interest front. It’s just the interest rates have to come down. Like, if interest rates keep rising, you just fundamentally reduce affordability. It is just the same as increasing the price of the car. So I just don’t have visibility into it. If you can tell me what the interest rates are, I can tell you when we should build the factory. We’re going to build it. And I mean think we’ll start the initial phases of construction next year. But I am still somewhat scarred by 2009 when General Motors and Chrysler went bankrupt. While that’s now 14 years ago, it’s -- that is seared into my mind with a branding iron because Tesla was just hanging on by a thread during that entire time and with -- I mean, we closed a financing round in 2008 at 6 p.m. December 24th, Christmas Eve. And if we had not closed that financing round, we would have bounced payroll two days after Christmas. So we actually closed that around the last hour, the last day that it was possible, stressful to say the least, and then barely made it through 2009. So, I’m like -- I want to just -- I don’t want to be going at top speed into uncertainty. A lot of wars going on in the world obviously as well, so -- and we have room here.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Like in Giga Texas. You said we still have room in this building. It’s not full with Cybertruck and the line. There’s plenty of growth opportunities still to have inside the building where our team already is.
Elon Musk:
We also have 2,000 acres here.
Unidentified Company Representative:
There’s also…
Elon Musk:
We’re actually only occupying a tiny corner of the land that we have. We could technically do all the scaling, research just here. So, personnel is our biggest challenge and the greater Austin area only has -- generously the greater Austin area only has 2 million people. So people are moving here and they’re willing to move here, but there is somewhat of a housing crisis. They got to live somewhere. So I don’t know. I mean, I’m just curious. Like I just -- I’m not saying things will be bad. I’m just saying they might be. And I think like Tesla is an incredibly capable ship, but we need to make sure like as -- if the macroeconomic conditions are stormy, even if the best ship is still going to have tough times, the weaker ships will sink. We’re not going to sink. But even a great ship in a storm has challenges. Now that storm will apply to everyone, not just to us and not just to auto industry. It will apply to everyone, I think. So apart from necessary sort of staples, like food and stuff. So I just -- I don’t know. If interest rates start coming down, we will accelerate.
Martin Viecha:
All right.
Elon Musk:
If anybody’s got any guesses on this, I’d love to be less wrong. And I apologize if I’m perhaps more paranoid than I should be because that might also be the case because I am -- I have PTSD from 2009, big time. And in 2017 through 2019 were not a picnic either. That was very tough going. So the auto industry is also somewhat cyclic because people hesitate to buy a new car if there’s uncertainty in the economy. So it’s car companies do very well in good economic times, and they don’t do as well in tough economic times. So, it’s just -- whereas if somebody is selling bread, then I think that people still eat bread. Yes, we need bread. We need food all time. But new car, you don’t have to have...
Vaibhav Taneja:
Especially if there are wars going on and then that impacts your sentiment.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean people are reading about wars all over the world. Buying a new car tends to not be front of mind.
Martin Viecha:
All right. Unfortunately, that’s all the time we have today. Thank you very much for all of your good questions, and we’ll see you again in three months. Thank you very much.
Martin Viecha:
Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Tesla’s Second Quarter 2023 Q&A Webcast. My name is Martin Viecha, VP of Investor Relations. And I’m joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn, and a number of other executives. Our Q2 results were announced at about 3:00 pm Central Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today’s call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please use the raise hand button to join the question queue. But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you, Martin. So, just a Q2 recap. In Q2 we achieved record vehicle production and deliveries, and record revenue of about $25 billion in a single quarter. And Model Y became the bestselling vehicle of any kind globally in Q1, surpassing the likes of Corolla and Golf. So, it was the number one vehicle of any kind, including vehicles that are sold at a far lower price. This is, I think, an incredible achievement by the Tesla team, and just a huge thank you to our customers for their support. And this came in spite of high interest rates and a lot of macro uncertainty. And nonetheless, we managed to achieve operating margin of about 10%. We continue to target 1.8 million vehicle deliveries this year. Although, we expect that Q3 production will be a little bit down because we’ve got summer shutdowns to -- for a lot of factory upgrades. So, just probably a slight decrease in production in Q3 for sort of global factory upgrades. In the long-term, autonomy we think is going to just drive volume through the ceiling next level. And our sort of future robotaxi products -- dedicated robotaxi products we think have like quasi-infinite demand. The way we’re going to manufacture robotaxi is, is also itself a revolution. So, it’s revolutionary design made in a revolutionary way. It’ll be by far the highest units per hour of any vehicle production ever. So, very excited about that. With respect to Autopilot and Dojo, in order to build autonomy, we also need to train our neural net with data from millions of vehicles. The more -- I mean, this has been proven over and over again. The more training data you have, the better the results. And, I mean, there are times where we see basically -- in a neural net, basically it’s sort of at 1 million training examples, it barely works; at 2 million, it slightly works; at 3 million, it’s like wow, okay, we’re seeing something, but then you get like 10 million training examples, it’s like -- it becomes incredible. So, there’s just no substitute for a massive amount of data. And obviously, Tesla has more vehicles on the road that are collecting this data than all of the companies combined by, I think, maybe even an order of magnitude. So, I think we might have 90% of all -- or a very big number. So, the success in AI endeavors is a function of talent, sort of unique data and computing resources. And we have outstanding capabilities in all three arenas. And I really just don’t know how anyone could do what we’re doing, even if they had our software and had our computer, if they did not have the training data. So, speaking of which, our Dojo training computer is designed to significantly reduce the cost of neural net training. It is designed to -- it’s somewhat optimized for the kind of training that we need, which is a video training. So, we just see that the need for neural net training -- again, talking -- speaking of quasi-infinite things, is just enormous. So, I think having -- we expect to use both, NVIDIA and Dojo, to be clear. But there’s -- we just see demand for really vast training resources. And we think we may reach in-house neural net training capability of a 100 exaflops by the end of next year. So, to date, over 300 million miles have been driven using FSD beta. That 300 million mile number is going to seem small very quickly. It’ll soon be billions of miles, then tens of billions of miles. And FSD will go from being as good as a human to then being vastly better than a human. We see a clear path to full self-driving being 10 times safer than the average human driver, so. And between Autopilot, Dojo computer, our inference hardware in the car, which we call sort of Hardware 3, 4, but it’s really dedicated. It’s a high efficiency inference computer that’s in the car and our Optimus robot, Tesla’s clearly at the cutting edge of AI development. With regard to our Cybertruck, we continue to build our release candidates of the Cybertruck on our final production line in Austin. I’m actually here in Austin at the Gigafactory. This is the first truck that we’re aware of that will have four doors over a six foot bed and will fit into a 20-foot garage. So, it’s sort of biggest on the outside, but it’s even bigger on the inside. So it’s -- I think that’s a -- one of the elements of good design is it should feel bigger on the inside than it looks on the outside. And this is no small car, but we really cared about the exterior dimensions of the Cybertruck down to the last millimeter. So just -- we try to get right in the middle of the Goldilocks zone, not too big, not too small and then really maximize the utility of the volume. And we can’t wait to start delivering it later this year. Some other highlights. Our global Supercharging network now stands at over 50,000 -- roughly 50,000 connectors and over 5,000 locations. As I think a lot of people are aware, the Tesla Charging Standard, which we made open source and it’s now called the North American Charging Standard. We’re deeply honored that Ford, GM, Mercedes and many other OEMs have signed up to use our connector and gain access to our charging network. We strongly believe in helping other car companies to accelerate the EV revolution and just trying to do the right thing in general. So, that’s the goal there. Then something I think, I want emphasize, like very strongly, this is a very important point is that Tesla -- just as with the North American Charging Standard, although we’re not license -- in that case not licensing, we’re just making it available, but we are very open to licensing our full self-driving software and hardware to other car companies. And we are already in discussions with -- early discussions with major OEM about using Tesla FSD. So, we’re not trying to keep this to ourselves. We’re more than happy to license it to others. And lastly, our new lithium refinery and cathode facility are progressing well. In conclusion, we continue to focus on making as many cars as we can, while maintaining healthy financials. Our artificial intelligence development is obviously entering a new era and we’re incredibly excited about what’s to come. Our other businesses such as Megapack, Supercharging service and whatnot, all started to become a meaningful contributor to overall profitability this quarter. And then lastly, I’d just like to profusely thank all of our employees who are making a lot of extra effort during uncertain times. Thank you very much for your hard work and the impact you’re making.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much, Elon. And I think Zach has some opening remarks as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks Martin. As Elon mentioned, Q2 was another record quarter of production and deliveries, as well as records in profit for our energy and services and other businesses. Congratulations again to the Tesla team on the continued progress. As we navigate through a period of economic uncertainty, rising interest rates, volatility in consumer confidence and regulatory change, I want to comment on our financial approach. First, the single most important priority is to ensure we are continuing to invest heavily in the core technologies that will drive the long-term value of the business. This includes increasing spending on AI related technologies such as full self-driving, Optimus and Dojo, as well as new products such as Cybertruck, our next generation platform and the Semi, as evidenced by the continued growth in our R&D spend. This also includes continuing our investments in capacity expansion, not only in our vehicle factories, but also our Supercharging network, service, internal applications, and battery processes, as we continue with meaningful capital expenditures to lay this foundation for the future. Second, we continue to work towards our goals of maximizing volumes on both, our vehicle and energy business, but most importantly, doing so in a way that generates the capital to continue our pace of R&D and capital investments. This requires a strong focus on per unit COGS reductions in each of our key businesses, as well as working capital improvements on raw materials, work in process inventory and customer AR, all of which progressed appropriately in Q2. If we look specifically at our automotive business, our gross margin showed a modest reduction and remained healthy, despite action taken to further improve vehicle affordability early in the quarter. We recognized – we realized per unit cost improvements in nearly every category, including material cost and commodities, manufacturing costs and logistics, while also continuing to rapidly increase the build rate in our Austin and Berlin factories. For our energy business, we improved margins and gross profit driven by cost reductions and deal economics, particularly with Megapack. As a reminder, storage volumes are typically volatile sequentially based on the types of projects and their specific revenue recognition milestones. As we look forward to the rest of the year, I want to reiterate Elon’s comments on Q3 volumes driven by planned downtimes for factory upgrades. These upgrades will also carry some amount of factory idle cost. However, we are working to minimize as much as possible. It’s also important to keep in mind the uncertainty in the macro environment, which can impact our execution positively or negatively in the near term. Regardless, we continue to remain dynamic with a focus on fundamental efficiency and a long-term outlook. Congratulations again to everybody on a great quarter.
A - Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much, Zach. And let’s go to investor questions. The first question on licensing FSD we’ve already answered. So, let’s go to the second one. The second question is, what is the status of 4680 cells? How far are you from the specs you laid out on Battery Day? When do you expect to achieve what you laid out on Battery Day?
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes. First, I’ll just start with a little bit of a production update. So, in Texas, 4680 cell production increased 80% Q2 over Q1, and the team surpassed 10 million production cells produced here in Texas. So, congrats to the team for that. Their focus on yield reduced our scrap bill by 40% quarter-over-quarter, and that resulted in a 25% reduction in cell COGS. Here in Texas, we’re preparing to launch our Cybertruck cell, which is 10% higher energy density than current production. That was accomplished through process and mechanical design optimization. As we scale Cyber cell production through the end of the year and early next, we should be in a comfortable place on cost per cell. Against our battery energy density targets, the Cyber cell is at our expectations on a like-for-like electrochemistry basis. We’re yet to integrate silicon or in-house cathode production, both reviewed on Battery Day, which do bring significant further energy density and cost improvements, but that is a topic for another day. Lastly, it is important to remember that most of what we focused on a Battery Day was the Tesla-engineered 4680 production system and the improvements we strove to achieve on equipment, factory density, capital cost and utility cost reduction, all of which we are realizing in our Texas scale up to date.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. The next question is, can you talk more to the upcoming Tesla Energy products and how your thinking has evolved on the revenue model? Given Tesla’s AI capabilities, how do you see the long-term mix between hardware margin and recurring software margin from Autobidder as this segment accelerates?
Unidentified Company Representative:
We can’t comment on future product road map, but I can provide a quick energy Q2 update. Megapack continues to show strong demand globally with Lathrop ramping successfully to meet our contracted projects in 2023. As stated last quarter, Megapack margins are in a reasonable place, in line with our target – vehicle target margins. The second final assembly line at Lathrop is progressing on schedule, eventually doubling Lathrop capacity ahead of our full factory ramp in 2024. We have several exciting large projects in construction or nearing completion, including the KES project in Hawaii, the Riverina project in Australia, several products in California and one here at Gigafactory, Texas that we’ll tour today, actually. We want to thank our customers, utilities and grid operators for trusting us with these projects. On the Autobidder question, we continue to grow Autobidder contracts in wholesale markets like Australia, Texas, UK and California with over 6 gigawatt hours under Tesla’s dispatch next year. In the UK, our projects performed best in the industry in Q2. Autobidder does have software margins and is an enabler for hardware sales, but it’s a relatively small contributor to revenues, given how much deployment growth on the Megapack hardware side is occurring. It’s important to remember that these large projects – these large capital projects have lifetimes of 20 years of recurring revenues on an annualized basis relative to upfront CapEx are small. On the residential side, we have some fun things happening. We recently surpassed 0.5 million Powerwalls installed. Just this week, we are launching Charge on Solar, which allows Tesla Powerwall and vehicle customers to charge their vehicles using their excess solar and drive only on the sunshine that hits their roof. Yesterday, we began paying customers in Texas for participating in our virtual power plant to provide grid support to ERCOT. We expect these credits to lower our median customer’s annual bill by a third and to increase these credits over time as ERCOT expands market access. And today, we are expanding Tesla electric enrollment to new Model 3 owners in Texas, followed by all Texas vehicle customers over the rest of the quarter. Unfortunately and somewhat similar to Tesla Insurance, bringing Tesla electric and BPP capabilities to our customers requires working through a fractured regulatory environment on a jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction basis. In the long run, the value of residential energy software and hardware will be driven by the level of market access that utilities, market operators and regulators permit. For Powerwall that’s eligible to provide the full stack of energy services, like peaker capacity and system buffering, such as in Australia, we can more than double the value of ownership relative to a typical system today.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. The next question is, could you quantify the benefits to COGS per unit from the IRA battery manufacturing incentives; and secondly, battery raw material declines year-to-date?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
All right. I can take that. On the first part of the question for IRA manufacturing incentives, we provided previous guidance that we expect these to be for the course of this year in the range of $150 million to $250 million per quarter. We are staying within that boundary as we guided previously, so that was the case in Q2 as well. I will note, and I think we’ve mentioned this before, that this includes a 50-50 sharing of credits for qualified cells from our long-term battery partner, Panasonic. On the commodity side, we are continuing to see improvements there, as we’ve discussed previously. Lithium is the most notable improvement so far. I think I commented on this on the last call, because typically, we see this coming about a quarter before it actually is realized in our financials. And also just as a reminder, we’re not fully exposed to the price of lithium. Our supply chain team has done a terrific job in partnership with another – a bunch of other companies to put in place some long-term agreements here, but we do have some exposure that moves up and down. We’re also seeing benefits in aluminum and steel, which I think is great. Not as large as the lithium impacts, but they contribute nonetheless. So, if we add up the total impact of this in Q2 relative to prior quarter, it’s about the same size and magnitude as the IRA benefits that we also received. Just to put this in context, as you look at COGS per unit sequentially from Q1 to Q2, I think there’s two things to keep in mind there. The first is that our SX mix for deliveries increased quite a bit from Q1 to Q2. So, as you think about fundamental cost reductions, it’s important to adjust for that. And then secondly, as we continue to work on reducing our Austin and Berlin cost, which we did quite a bit of that from Q1 to Q2, these factories are still slightly above Model Y production costs elsewhere. And in the quarter, our mix of Austin and Berlin related builds increased. And so, that’s something to consider as you model out the impact on – from Q1 to Q2 in terms of COGS per unit. I do want to ask Karn if there’s anything else on the commodity side or just more generally, you want to add here?
Karn Budhiraj:
Yes. As you mentioned, Zach, we’ve naturally been a little bit hedged from the lithium position because of the long-term contracts we have in place. But we have seen reduction in pricing across the board for all commodities that specifically go into batteries such as nickel, cobalt and graphite. And the reductions in pricing translate into thousands of dollars when you look at it from a per-vehicle impact. We’re taking advantage of the historically low commodity pricing and certainly [Indiscernible] to kind of extend some of those fixed price contracts through the end of the decade. So it’s a playbook that we’ll continue to kind of go back to as we look to the future.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question on FSD. Have you considered allowing FSD transferability as a lever to allow existing customers to upgrade to a new Tesla instead of being locked into an existing car due to the price of FSD?
Elon Musk:
Yes. This is a question we get asked a lot. So, we’re excited to announce that for Q3, we will be allowing transfer of FSD. This is a onetime amnesty. So, it needs to be -- you need to take advantage of it in Q3, but -- or at least place the order in Q3 within reasonable delivery time frames. So yes, I hope this makes people happy. This is a onetime thing.
Martin Viecha:
Right. The next question, when will we give more information about the Cybertruck orders, estimated delivery schedules, pricing and specifications?
Elon Musk:
Demand is so far off the hook, you can’t even see the hook. So, that’s really not an issue. I do want to emphasize that the Cybertruck has a lot of new technology in it, like a lot. It doesn’t look like -- it doesn’t look like any other vehicle because it is not like any other vehicle. So -- and the production ramp will move as fast as the slowest and least likely elements of the entire supply chain and internal production. So, I wouldn’t expect -- I hope it’s smooth. We’re certainly better at production ramps that -- we’ve got a lot of experience with the production ramps. But first order approximation, there’s like 10,000 unique parts and processes in the Cybertruck. And if any one of -- it will go as fast as the least lucky, least well-executed element of the 10,000. So, it’s always difficult to predict the ramp initially, but I think we’ll be making them in high volume next year, and we will be delivering the car this year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is critics of Gigacasting contended that process makes vehicles harder and more costly to repair, essentially pushing costs on to the customer. Can you share some details about the initial repair experience with Gigacast vehicles?
Elon Musk:
That must be why everyone’s copying us.
Lars Moravy:
Thanks, Elon. This is Lars. I mean, that’s like simply not true. There’s a misconception that traditional bodies are easy to repair, but they are made up of multiple materials and multiple joining methods. Spot welds and rivets have to be drilled out. Panels and structural adhesives have to be chiseled out. Dried adhesive has to be removed, stains, cut, blah, blah, blah.
Elon Musk:
It’s a crazy patch of a quilt.
Lars Moravy:
Yes. And so putting that back together means time and money. Using an example of replacing a rear cast rail in the Model Y, to do that versus like what we replaced it with from Model 3, it’s 10 times cheaper and 3 times faster to do it with the cast rail. Design team works with our collision repair team since we’re a closed loop on this with insurance, and we design specific parts that make it easier and faster to repair. And we have an incentive to do that because we have our own insurance and our own body shops. We expect that we’ll continue to do this, and collision repair will continue to become cheaper and faster over time. And we already make this available to all body shops or our Tesla-approved body shop training.
Elon Musk:
Yes, closing loop on collision repair and factoring that into design is a big deal.
Lars Moravy:
Crucial. I don’t think anyone else can do it with that ecosystem that we have, so.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And we are actually able to change the details of the casting with inserts, and we actually do that all the time, so -- because the inserts actually wear out and need to be replaced anyway. So we can actually make design changes to the inserts and tweak the castings. But the cast --basically cast rear body or front body is lighter, cheaper, better noise vibration, harshness, much easier to manufacture. It’s better in every way. And that’s why so many other car companies are copying us.
Lars Moravy:
Probably.
Elon Musk:
Well, they certainly put out a lot of press releases about it. I think it’s basically going to be how all cars are made in the future.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Next question, how many Optimus bots have been made? And when will they be able to start performing useful tasks?
Elon Musk:
10 million. Yes. I think we’re around 5 or 6 bots. I think -- there’s -- we were -- look, 10, I guess. Depends on what -- how many are working and what phase. But it’s sort of -- yes, there’s more every month. There’s a lot of interesting things about the Optimus bot. We found that there are actually no suppliers that can produce the actuators. There are no off-the-shelf actuators that work well for humanoid robot at any price.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Certainly not compelling.
Elon Musk:
Yes. There’s not a humanoid robot that can do something -- the things that human could do. So, we’ve actually had to design our own actuators that integrate the motor or the power electronics, the controller, the sensors. And really, every one of them is custom designed. And then, of course, we’ll be using the same inference hardware as the car. But we are, in designing these actuators, designing them for volume production. So, they’re not just lighter, tighter and more capable than any other actuators wherever that exists in the world, but it’s also actually manufacturable. So, we should be able to make them in volume. The first Optimus that is -- that will have all of the Tesla designed actuators, sort of production candidate actuators integrated and walking should be around November-ish. And then, we’ll start ramping up after that. In terms of when we’ll be able to do some useful things, like we’ll first be trying this out in our own factories and just proving out its utility, but I think we’ll be able to have it do something useful in our factories sometime next year. I would be -- yes, I’m pretty confident of that. So yes, it’s going well. I should say another cool thing about Optimus is that there’s -- just in the U.S. alone, there are 2 million amputees. And I was just talking to the Neuralink team. And by combining a Neuralink implant and a robotic arm or leg for someone that has had their arm or leg or arms and legs amputated, we believe we can give basically a cyber body that is incredibly capable, $6 million man in real life, before don’t want to cost $6 million. $60,000 man. This sounds impressive, but it will actually -- so that actually could be a really -- I think, would be incredible to potentially help people around the world and give them a robot arm or like that is as good, maybe long term better than a biological one.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, how has the order intake trended relatively to production levels during Q2? And how has it trended in the quarter-to-date period? Conceptually, how does Tesla decide when is it appropriate to reduce prices or at other sales incentives to increase demand?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I guess, demand has roughly tracked production. So -- which is what we aim for is -- we look at -- it’s something that we have that really -- I think no other carmaker has -- is that we have real-time demand and real-time production, like so seven days a week. I get an e-mail -- order generated e-mail, chose output from all factories and orders globally. So it’s like a real-time finger on the pulse of earth basically. And we adjust course according to what the mood of the public is. Buying a new car is a big decision for vast majority of people. So, any time there’s economic uncertainty, people generally pause on new car buying at least to see what happens. And then obviously, another challenge is the interest rate environment. As interest rates rise, the affordability of anything bought with debt decreases, so effectively increasing the price of the car. So when interest rates rise dramatically, we actually have to reduce the price of the car because the interest payments increase the price of the car. And this is -- at least up until recently, it was, I believe, the sharpest interest rate rise in history. So, we had to do something about that. If somebody’s got a crystal ball for the global economy, I really appreciate it, if I could borrow that crystal ball.
Unidentified Company Representative:
DM us.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly, DM me. It should be not on Twitter. So, I mean, one day, it seems like the world economy is falling apart and the next day, everything is fine. I don’t know what’s going on. It’d be totally fine. I wish I did. So, I mean that’s why I say like I was on Twitter, I posted like just really advising because I care a lot about the sort of small shareholders, especially ones that have stuck with us through thick and thin. I love you, guys. And so, we can’t control these macro shocks or the thematic depressive nature of the stock market. So, that’s why I recommend against margin loans in times that are turbulent. If times are not that turbulent, actually margin loan can be a smart move within reason. But we’re in, I would call it, turbulent times. Like I have very high confidence in the long-term value of Tesla. Like I see it -- I really see a path to a 10x -- call it a 5x increase in the value of the company, maybe a 10x. And -- but where things go along the way, the trials and tribulations and the mood of the markets, one cannot predict. And so, the old adage of buy and hold is right. For an investment advice, I’d say like identifying a company as products you love. See if they -- does it seem like they’ll continue to make good products or great products? Buy that stock and hold it. That’s it. You’ll win. The reason companies exist is to make goods and services, ideally great goods and services. They don’t exist for any other reason. They shouldn’t. So, that’s why you should buy stock of a company that makes good products and has a great future pipeline. It’s common sense, actually. And then generally, if you see -- if you provide your confidence about what that company’s products or services are, when the market panics, buy; and when the market is overly exuberant, you can sell. I’m not recommending you to Tesla, but yes, buy low, sell high. Warren Buffett actually, I think has a saying -- I’m paraphrasing him, but a publicly traded company is like imagine living in your house and some crazy manic-depressive guy comes and stands outside your house and yells property prices at you, and it’s a different price every day. But the house is still the same house. So, this is a stock market. Credit that to Warren Buffett.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let’s go to the next question. With the emphasis of price cuts to drive volume growth eating into automotive gross margin, can investors expect to see automotive gross margin stabilize or even rise due to efficiencies outpacing the cuts? And if so, when?
Elon Musk:
Where’s that crystal ball, again? If I may, look, the short-term variances in gross margin and profitability really are minor relative to the long-term picture. Autonomy will make all of these numbers look silly. I’d recommend looking at ARK Invest. I think their analysis is very good. It’s the best. And generally, Fintwit or the finance, Smart Finance people on Twitter, follow their accounts. They’re great. So that’s in my opinion where you’ll get the best info. So, I strongly believe Tesla is a big long-term investment. And don’t sweat when things go up and down. In fact, if the market panics, buy; if the market is a little too exuberant, sell at the time. But just generally, like -- I feel -- I’m confident we’ll deliver over long term, but can’t control short term. So -- and the autonomy is really where it’s at. I mean, Zachary?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I fully agree with you. I mean, I think the only thing in the short term that matters is what I said in my opening remarks, which is are we generating enough money to continue to invest. And the portfolio of products and technologies that the technical teams are investing in right now, this is intense. It’s intense in terms of investment; it’s intense in terms of potential.
Elon Musk:
Frankly, I think it’s ridiculous that we have positive free cash flow in a capital-intensive business, while investing massive amounts of money in new technology. That is super hard.
Unidentified Company Representative:
And vertical integration. It’s not even just like new products, but also...
Elon Musk:
Yes. We actually make our share...
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And so, at least from my perspective, what matters is continuing to generate the cash to invest. That means continuing to be hyper focused on near-term cost reduction. Is everything we do in near-term cost reduction provides capital to reinvest? Hyper-focused on working capital management, which we’ve made quite a bit of progress there on the raw materials and with -- a set of that we’ve been very focused on accounts receivables as well to ensure that we can continue to reinvest the cash. This is what we’re focused on. And so, there’s a set of this that we control. We have a pipeline of cost reductions. We are getting tailwinds in the commodity space right now, as Karn mentioned, that’s helpful. Variability around average selling prices goes back to Elon’s point. We don’t control interest rates. We don’t control macro consumer sentiment. But we have an obligation to be responsive to that to ensure that we’re matching supply and demand and keeping things balanced. And so, this is how we’re managing the next handful of quarters. Soon enough, these quarters will be behind us. They won’t be part of the present value of future cash flows of the business. And so, we want to make sure we keep that view and make sure that the long term business is exactly the way that we want it to be.
Martin Viecha:
All right. Thank you very much. Now let’s go to analyst questions. The first question comes from Dan Levy from Barclays.
Dan Levy:
I wanted to start first with a question about your efforts in AI and Dojo. It’s pretty clear it sounds like you’re accelerating your focus. Can you maybe provide us with a sense of what the process is of refining a product? Is it more machines? And maybe you could give us a sense of when the payout starts to -- when you start to see the payout and what the resource outlay is, what should we expect on the OpEx front as a result of this?
Elon Musk:
Sorry. Are you saying how much are we going to spend on Dojo or…?
Dan Levy:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
R&D on Dojo?
Dan Levy:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
Well, we’re not going to be open loop on our Dojo expenditures. So -- but I mean, I think we will be spending something north of $1 billion over the next year on -- through the next year, it’s well over $1 billion in Dojo. And yes, so I mean we’ve got a truly staggering amount of video data to do training on. And this is another thing -- in order to copy us, you also need to spend billions of dollars on training compute. I mean, it’s like -- and it’s also hard to -- you need the data and you need the training computer. It’s like -- think, well, things needed to actually achieve this at scale toward generalized solution for autonomy, it’s -- this is one of the highest problems ever. You see a lot of AI companies doing LLMs and whatnot. I would say if they’re so great, why can’t they make a self-driving car? Because it’s harder. That’s why. So -- but I do think -- I think there’s some great AI companies out there. But just fundamentally, the staggering amount of data we’ve got to process, it’s got to be processed somehow. And custom silicon is the best way to do that. So that’s what Dojo is designed to do is optimize for video training. It’s not optimized for LLMs. It’s optimized for video training. With video training, you have a much higher ratio of compute-to-memory bandwidth, so -- whereas LLMs tends to be memory bandwidth choked. So that’s it. I mean -- but like I said, we’re also -- we have some -- we’re using a lot of NVIDIA hardware. We’ll continue to -- we’ll actually take NVIDIA hardware as fast as NVIDIA will deliver it to us. Tremendous respect for Jensen and NVIDIA. They’ve done an incredible job. And frankly, I don’t know if they could deliver us enough GPUs, we might not need Dojo, but they can’t. So they’ve got so many customers. They’ve been kind enough to nonetheless, prioritize some of our GPU orders. But yes, the sheer magnitude of video training -- because like I said, we’re not trying to just get as good as human. We want to get to 10 times better than human, maybe 100 times better than human. Right now, I believe there’s something on the order of 1 million automotive deaths per year. And then if you say permanent serious injuries, I think it’s probably closer to 10 million per year. And -- so it matters if you’re twice as good as human, 10 times -- like 10 times better than human would still mean 100,000 deaths and 1 million severe permanent injuries. So, it’s like, okay, we would rather be 100 times better. So there’s really -- it’s a march of 9s, and we want to achieve as perfect safety as possible. And that’s truly mind-boggling amounts of video and computer needed for that. And then, I do think there’s other applications for Dojo, but we just desperately need it for video training.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Just to add to what Elon mentioned. So, the numbers that he mentioned are between R&D spend and capital spend. And this is moving quickly. And so, we provide a three-year outlook on our capital expense. We are considering these expenses in that outlook. And as that moves up and down, we’ll continue to update our guidance in the Q.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I want to say, the fundamental rate limiter on the progress of full self-driving is training. That’s -- if we had more training compute, we would get it done faster. So that’s it.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And it’s just difficult to predict how quickly we can execute on it.
Dan Levy:
Great. Thank you. Just as a follow-up, I recognize there’s incredible macro uncertainty right now, but you’re sticking with your near term, your volume target of 50% CAGR. As we just think about sort of in the year ahead, Cybertruck is going to be some contribution. There’s going to be some help from further EV penetration growth. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice on pricing to keep that 50% volume CAGR intact, or are you thinking differently about margins versus your prior commentary of willing to sacrifice on margins to get more share?
Elon Musk:
It’s not about getting more share. It’s just that you can think of every car that we sell or produce that has full autonomy capability as actually something that in the future may be worth as much as 5 times what it is today. Because average -- vehicle is doing like maybe 10 hours of driving a week. If sort of -- if this says 1.5 hours a day on average, that’s 10 hours a week-ish. If you’ve got on autonomous -- if the vehicle is able to operate autonomously and use either dedicated autonomous or partially autonomous like Airbnb, like maybe sometimes you allow your car to be used by others. Sometimes you want to use it exclusively just like Airbnb -- doing Airbnb with a room in your house. The value is just tremendous. So, I think it’s sort of, it would be -- I think it -- it does make sense to sacrifice margins in favor of making more vehicles because we think in the not too distant future, they will have a dramatic valuation increase. I think the Tesla fleet value increase at the point which we can upload full self-driving and is approved by regulators will be the single biggest step change in asset value maybe in history.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let’s go to the next analyst. The question comes from Emmanuel Rosner from Deutsche Bank.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Two questions from me as well. First, following up on the autonomy. So before you start launching these dedicated robotaxi vehicles, on existing vehicles, you’re improving FSD incrementally. What is your latest targeted timing to essentially release a non-beta version or an eyes-off version that would trigger much higher take rates? And would Tesla benefit from lowering the price of FSD?
Elon Musk:
Well, obviously, as people have sort of made fun of me and perhaps quite fairly have made fun of me, my predictions about achieving full self-driving have been optimistic in the past. The reason I’ve been optimistic is -- it tends to look like is the -- we’ll make rapid progress with a new version of FSD, but then it will curve over logarithmically. So first, logarithmic curve looks like just sort of fairly straight upward line, diagonally up. And so, if you extrapolate that, then you have a great thing. But then because it’s actually logarithmic, it curves over, and then there have been a series of stacked logarithmic curves. Now, I’m the boy who cried FSD, but I think we’ll be better than human by the end of this year. That’s not to say we’re approved by regulators. And I’m saying that would be in the U.S. because we’ve got to focus on one market first. But I think we’ll be better than human by the end of this year. I’ve been wrong in the past, I may be wrong this time. And the price of FSD -- so the great thing is the price of FSD is actually very low, it’s not high. When you go back to what I said earlier, the value of the car increases dramatically if it is actually autonomous. $15,000 is actually a low price, not a high price. And we will offer -- and we -- I think we do sort of offer FSD as a sort of monthly subscription, although most people don’t know that. So, I’d recommend like maybe trying it out as a monthly subscription so you don’t have to go with the $15,000 thing. But I think yes, yes -- obviously, if the car is worth several times its original price, $15,000 is actually a low price for FSD.
Martin Viecha:
And the next question comes from William Stein from Truist.
William Stein:
I’d like to ask about -- to stick on this AI topic. We’ve read with great interest the developments in Dojo today, and you’ve spoken about FSD, but you’ve also -- Elon, you started this x.ai company. And for investors that think that there might be quite a bit of value in the AI features and products of Tesla, it might be concerning to see you pursuing another endeavor where AI is the focus. So can you talk about how x.ai might overlap, might perhaps compete with Tesla or in other ways, perhaps it enhances the value of what Tesla does?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think it’ll actually enhance the value of Tesla. There were just some of the world’s best AI engineers and scientists that were willing to join a startup, but they were not willing to join a large sort of relatively established company like Tesla. So, it was like -- that’s actually how it got started. I was interviewing a few people and they’re like, no, we want to do a startup. I was like, and that’s well -- I couldn’t convince them to join Tesla. So -- so it’s like, okay, well, better to start up that I run than go work somewhere else. That’s kind of the genesis of xAI. And xAI is focused on sort of AGI. Yes. So it’s -- like I said, I think there will be some value that xAI brings to Tesla. Also some of the best -- for the very best people in the world, they really just want to work on interesting problem. So if you take, say, a material science group, really what convinced Charlie Colman to leave Apple, where he was very happy and well compensated, and both at -- in both -- where we think is the best material science group in the world, was that he got to work at both Tesla and SpaceX. He wasn’t willing to leave Apple if it was just Tesla, but he’s willing to do it if it is Tesla and SpaceX. So sometimes you get the best talent in the world if that’s the kind of thing you need to do. And that actually has been very beneficial to Tesla.
William Stein:
If I could squeeze one more mundane question in. I wonder if you think you can hit the 1.8 million unit number with current pricing, or do you anticipate needing to continue to lower prices because it seems like they’ve stabilized. The trends have stabilized in the last maybe 1.5 months. Should we expect sort of continued decreases or more stabilization for the rest of the year?
Elon Musk:
Sure. We have sort of -- we started the referral program, which I think will be quite effective. As Zach was saying earlier, we don’t control the macroeconomic conditions. So, if interest rates continue to rise, that reduces the affordability of cars. And for a lot of people, they’re really -- they’re just really breaking even every month. In fact, if you look at the rise in credit card debt, they are, in fact, not breaking even every month. Credit card debt is looking scary. So, we just don’t control the market conditions. If market condition is stable, I think prices will be stable. If they’re not stable, then we would have lower prices. Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let’s go to Colin Rusch from Oppenheimer.
Colin Rusch:
As you’re building out Dojo and implementing what truly is going to be a highly complex set of software, can you speak to the maturity of the operating system and how much outsourced software you’re expecting to use in that system?
Elon Musk:
This is a custom software stack, so. But it is designed such that you can run at a high level, PyTorch and JAX. But then we have to customize it to actually run on a custom silicon. So, the software stack is a combination of open source software and then Tesla software all the way to the bare silicon, which is the case for the inference computer in the car.
Colin Rusch:
Okay. Thanks so much. That’s super helpful. And then can you speak to how you’re managing some of the geopolitical risks relative to your capacity expansion? Obviously, as you guys continue to grow at this rate, you’re going to be putting some folks out of business. And there’s going to be some impacts around regional economy. So, I just want to understand how you’re thinking about that in terms of some of your CapEx plans and how you’re managing some of those relationships with different countries and regions.
Elon Musk:
Well, this is a period of unusual geopolitical risk. So, I think we’re -- the best we can do is have factories in many parts of the world such that if things get difficult in one part of the world, we can still keep things going in the rest of the world.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question comes from Mark Delaney from Goldman Sachs.
Mark Delaney:
Tesla has been making progress reducing costs and did so again last quarter. Can you give an update on when you think automotive COGS per vehicle could be under the historical $36,000 per vehicle level? And what are the key puts and takes to get there?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
This is -- I think I was asked this in the past. This is very difficult to forecast. There’s a series of costs that we manage, the series of costs which we don’t control. And so particularly on the commodity side, where labor costs go, et cetera, it’s just hard to say.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And we saw very inflationary -- like strong inflationary pressures for a while last year. And now -- which obviously makes it very difficult to reduce COGS. And now we’re seeing what seems to be deflationary pressures, certainly deflationary -- deflation isn’t pressure. But we’re seeing commodity prices dropping as was mentioned, as Karn mentioned a moment ago. I mean, I don’t know, what do you think? I mean, basically, the trends seem to be deflationary at the commodity level.
Karn Budhiraj:
Definitely. There’s that. And then there’s also the unit economics improve as volumes grow. That’s the other thing we’re seeing. As we’re becoming a bigger and better part of a lot of suppliers, the economies of scale come into play. There’s equipment depreciation that comes into play, equipment that was commissioned 5 to 7 years ago. That used to be a part of the piece price. That’s completely amortized. So, we’ll see situation where piece price comes down because that equipment contribution has gone away. And then just we continue to have this mentality of continuous improvement in terms of labor, reducing labor, improving automation, and just continue to get better at what we do. So we have seen -- I think every quarter, we have seen an improvement. Of course, the commodities spiked up and down. Just in general, the trend is towards being more efficient.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, I’m totally agreeing.
Elon Musk:
Yes, lithium prices were absolutely insane there for a while.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. And they’re recovering now.
Karn Budhiraj:
Cobalt -- the way it used to be.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. And we’re still early in the ramp -- well, not early in the ramp, but early in the cost down curve of Austin and Berlin. And so, it takes time to work the cost out it. First, it’s a focus on ramp -- ramp, it brings cost down...
Elon Musk:
And quality costs…
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. And then once that stabilizes, we can divert bandwidth to cost reduction. And so Austin and Berlin saw quite a decent amount of cost reduction on a fundamental basis from Q1 to Q2. We’ll continue to do that work that will be helpful. And so we’re just going to keep chipping away at it.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Packaging is a big element to that.
Elon Musk:
Yes, logistics…
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Logistics is normalizing, which is great.
Unidentified Company Representative:
[Indiscernible] utilization, something that the team has been very focused on. So, every bit of it.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, and it’s hard...
Elon Musk:
Logistics is underappreciated. Yes, so sold saying goes like valves and with tactics as one with logistics.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes. And we’ve made tremendous improvements in cost in all fronts on expired costs. We have done pre-pandemic expired cost levels now, and our goal is to go further down.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. So when we look at our progress from Q1 to Q2 on cost, the way that we look at internally, normalized for the impacts of mix shift with Austin and Berlin being a higher percentage of our mix, normalized for S and X being a higher percentage of our mix in Q2 versus Q1, the sequential cost reduction, it might be the largest we’ve had in a while. So, I think it’s great work on behalf of the Tesla team, and we just got to keep it up.
Elon Musk:
Yes, it’s a game of pennies. It’s a Game of Thrones with pennies.
Martin Viecha:
Mark, do you have a follow-up question? I think you’re muted.
Mark Delaney:
Yes. Thank you very much for all the details on that. Maybe you could put a finer point on the downtime impact that you spoke about in your prepared comments in terms of production impact and then also to what extent there’s a margin impact from those factory upgrades that you’re planning this quarter?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. The downtime -- we don’t know exactly the number of cars impacted because kind of the way that we go into downtime windows for upgrades is we set aside a period of time, but then the team is challenged to go as quickly as possible so that we can get the factories up and running again and minimize that. It’s not profound reduction. Hopefully, it’s small.
Elon Musk:
I think we’re getting too much into the weeds here. I mean, like we’re asking for a level of precision that is not possible to answer. So, let’s move on.
Martin Viecha:
Yes. I think this is unfortunately all the time we have for today. So, we’ll speak to you all in the next three months. Thank you very much.
Elon Musk:
Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Tesla's First Quarter 2023 Q&A Webcast. My name is Martin Viecha, VP of Investor Relations and I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn, and a number of other executives. Our Q1 results were announced at about 3:00 P.M. Central Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today’s call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please use the raise hand button to join the question queue. But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you, Martin. So just a Q1 recap. Model Y became the best-selling vehicle of any kind in Europe and the best-selling non-pickup vehicle in the United States. And this is in spite of a lot of challenges in production and delivery. So it's a huge credit to the Tesla team for achieving these great results. The -- it is worth pointing out that the current macro environment remains uncertain. I don't think I'm telling anyone anything, I think people already know, especially with large purchases such as cars. And while we reduced prices considerably in early Q1, it's worth noting that our operating margin remains among the best in the industry. We've taken a view that pushing for higher volumes and a larger fleet is the right choice here versus a lower volume and higher margin. However, we expect our vehicles, over time, will be able to generate significant profit through autonomy. So we do believe we're like laying the groundwork here, and then it's better to ship a large number of cars at a lower margin, and subsequently, harvest that margin in the future as we perfect autonomy. This is an extremely important point. Let's see. Regarding the Cybertruck, we continue to build Alpha versions of the Cybertruck on our pilot line for testing purposes. It's a great product, and we're completing the installation of the volume production line at Giga Texas, and we're anticipating having delivery event, a great delivery event probably in Q3. As with all new products, it will follow an S curve, so production starts out slow and then accelerates. So the Cybertruck is no different. So it's -- there's [Indiscernible] amount of demand for the product, obviously. And it is my view, a fantastic product, a hall of famer. But as with all new products, it takes time to get the manufacturing line going. And this is really a very radical product. It's not made in the way that other cars are made. So with regard to Megapack, we're making great progress. Our energy storage deployment reached nearly 4 gigawatt hours in Q1. This is, by far, the strongest quarter ever. And this growth was achieved thanks to the ongoing ramp at our Mega factory in Lathrop, California. There's still some way to go to reach the [Indiscernible] rate of 40 gigawatt hours per year. And then we additionally announced the start of a new Mega factory in Shanghai. So we're -- as we've expected, the stationary storage growth actually will significantly exceed the vehicle growth. Regarding Autopilot and Full Self-Driving, we've now crossed over 150 million miles driven by Full Self-Driving beta, and this number is growing exponentially. We're -- I mean, this is a data advantage that really no one else has. Those who understand AI will understand the importance of data -- of training data and how fundamental that is to achieving an incredible outcome. So, yes, so we're also very focused on improving our neural net training capabilities as is one of the main limiting factors of achieving full autonomy. So, we're continuing to simultaneously make significant purchases of NVIDIA GPUs and also putting a lot of effort into Dojo, which we believe has the potential for an order of magnitude improvement in the cost of training. And it also -- Dojo also has the potential to become a sellable service that we would offer to other companies in the same way that Amazon Web Services offers web services, even though it started out as a bookstore. So, I really think that, yes, the Dojo potential is very significant. In conclusion, we're taking a view that we want to keep making and selling as many cars as we can. Despite this being an uncertain macro environment, this is a good time to increase our lead further, and we'll continue to invest in growth as fast as possible. Once again, I'd like to give a huge thanks to all Tesla employees worldwide who are doing an incredible job again. And yes, super appreciated.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And Zach has some remarks as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Thanks Martin. I want to start by congratulating the Tesla team for record vehicle production and deliveries. And I also want to congratulate our energy storage team for record volumes as well. There's three main points I want to make. First, automotive gross margin and operating margin reduced sequentially. But as Elon mentioned, these remain at healthy levels. In particular, automotive gross margin was impacted by a few factors since our discussion on the last earnings call, which include additional action taken in the second half of the quarter to improve vehicle pricing and one-time items, most notably warranty adjustments on older S and X vehicles as well as increased deferred revenue for certain Autopilot features as we transition technologies. Progress on vehicle cost reduction continued in Q1 with meaningful improvements on logistics and the beginnings of some commodity cost reductions starting to be realized. Per unit cost for Austin and Berlin improved as well, driven by record volumes. However, these factories still provide a margin headwind and will likely continue to do so until after we reach and stabilize at our intended volumes. Note that Q1 was our third quarter in our multi-quarter plan to move to a more regionally balanced mix of build and deliveries. As I've mentioned previously, this results in lower deliveries and production within a quarter due to a higher volume of cars in transit at the end of the quarter and has an associated impact on quarter-ending free cash flows. This was particularly prevalent in Q1 for S and X as we begin exporting cars for international deliveries. Second, our storage business is starting to take shape, and this is exciting to see after many years of investment and focus. This business is growing as a percentage of the businesses of the company's revenue and reached its highest level yet in Q1, driven by an increasing rate of deliveries for our Megapack products. We are also making progress on storage profitability, generating our highest gross profit yet in the quarter. Third, I want to reiterate the philosophy by which we're operating the business this year. Our approach is to grow volumes as quickly as possible in both our vehicle and energy businesses. We plan to continue to invest heavily into our future plans, which include the Cybertruck next-generation platform, in-house cell production, energy storage business and our autonomy and AI-enabled products. And we plan to do this while keeping the business financially healthy and industry leading. To accomplish this, we need to remain focused on cost efficiency and working capital and in particular, unwinding the strategic inventory buildup left over from the pandemic. I want to conclude by thanking the Tesla team again, as well as thanking our suppliers and our customers.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And let's go to investor questions on say.com. The first one is what is the process to make auto pricing adjustments? What variables do you consider? How frequently do you review pricing?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Do you want to take that, Elon, or do you want me to take that?
Elon Musk:
My apologies. Sorry, I was on mute. Yeah, I think this is not something that we can really talk about. It's just -- we do our best to evaluate the production output, macroeconomic conditions, and we make a decision. But it's -- and unless there's something you'd like to add, Zach.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I think that's right. I mean, as a team, we review where we stand globally on a weekly basis and certainly, I can't get into the details of the reasons why certain decisions are made. But it is something that's very actively managed by a subset of the leadership team.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The second question is, do you still believe Tesla Energy will be bigger than auto? And when will you provide more formal guidance on Megapack and overall Tesla Energy?
Elon Musk:
Yes, I should just clarify like bigger than auto from the standpoint of like total gigawatt hours deployed. So its possible automotive revenue may be higher, but gigawatt hours I think will be probably higher with stationary storage. If you just look at the -- what's needed to transition the world to a sustainable energy economy, there is more stationary energy storage needed than there is mobile energy storage. So -- and we are seeing growth of our stationary storage well in excess of automotive. So that is in line with expectations.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah. And on the guidance part of the question, and maybe, Martin, we can combine this with the next question, which is on guidance for margins, just have a single comment there. I think we are -- we will get to the point where we, as a company, provide guidance on the storage business. I say storage is a combination of both the Megapack business and the Powerwall business. Relative to total revenues of the company, it's still fairly small. And the business has a lot of volatility currently, both in terms of volumes as well as financials just given the small volumes and diversification of the customer pool there. But as this business grows and smooths out, I don't think we're that far away from it. I think including these volumes on our day two production and deliveries release is something that we'll start doing and then we can talk more formally as a business about our expectations over the coming year. I think it will be a few more quarters before we get there.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question, as you said, was already answered, so let's go to the battery question.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Sorry. Just one other thing I wanted to mention on margin. While we're not providing specific guidance there, I mean, just to set expectations of where we think this business will go in terms of margins, probably generally in the ballpark of what we've seen historically on the vehicle business. We generally look to mid-20% gross margins for any program that we launch. And so we're not there yet on this business, but that's what we're working towards.
Elon Musk:
We're hopeful to get there later this year, but that's not a promise. That's an aspiration.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, how well are 4680 cells meeting the expectations described on the Battery Day? How long will it be until the cells meet those goals? Drew?
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah. So on Battery Day, we established a cost-down road map through 2026 across five areas of effort. There was the cell design we discussed, anode and cathode materials, the structural pack concept, and the cell factory itself, and we've been making progress across all of these aspects since then. For the cell factory, the Texas 4680 factory are partway through building and commissioning and selling and operating will be 70% lower CapEx per gigawatt hour than typical cell factories when fully ramped, in line with what we described on Battery Day. And we're continuing to further pursue densification and investment reduction opportunities in future factory build-outs like in Nevada. On the cell design, we're in production with not only the first generation tablet cell we unveiled on Battery Day, but a second more manufactural version in Texas today. On the cathode materials side, we have a number of activities underway per the Battery Day road map. For lithium, our Corpus Christi Lithium refinery breaks ground this May. Our goal is to start commissioning portions of the facility before the end of the year. The refinery uses the sulfate-free spodumene refining process with reduced process costs, no acid or caustic reagents, lower embodied energy. It actually produces a beneficial byproduct that can be repurposed in construction materials. We discussed all of these concepts on Battery Day. Same with cathode precursor, we've successfully demonstrated lower process cost, zero waste water precursor process that we described on Battery Day at both lab and pilot scale and are in the detailed design phase for incorporating this technology into the front end of our Austin cathode facility. On cathode production, we are 50% equipment and 75% utilities installed at our new cathode building in Austin, with our goal to begin dry and wet commissioning this quarter and next quarter with a target to produce first material before the end of the year. Structural pack, we saw big improvements with pack manufacturing with the 4680 cell and the structural pack concept, 50% lower CapEx and 66% smaller factory for the same output in gigawatt hours per year. We do believe structural as a concept is a good one. It's simpler. We'll continue to structurally load the cells and use the pack as the floor of the vehicle while iterating the design to closer to B-level execution of this A-level architecture in future programs. And zooming out for the 4680 team, Q1 was all about cost and quality. We made significant improvements in both areas. Texas production increased 50% quarter-over-quarter through yields increased 12% and [Indiscernible] peak rate increased by 20% and through yields improved by 20%. Altogether, the team accomplished a 25% reduction in COGS over the quarter, and we are on track to achieve steady-state cost targets over the next 12 months. And going forward for the rest of the year, the priority, one, is yielding cost for the 4680 program as we steadily ramp production ahead of Cybertruck next year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. The next question is, what do you anticipate 2023 automotive gross margins ex credits will be at the company's current pricing levels?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, I can start off on this one. This is a difficult environment to make a projection like this. There's a lot of macro uncertainty. There's also headwinds and tailwinds. And this is basically a question I think that's asking about viewpoint on where costs will go. And within costs, there's a set of costs in which we do control and a set of costs in which we're kind of subject to what's going on in the macro world. Within the bucket of things we control, most of the cost down that we're working on is around ramping our Austin factory, stabilizing that and then doing the cost optimization work once we get to our intended volumes there. And a part of the cost journey in the Austin factory is, as Drew mentioned, the 4680 cell, which is an input into our Austin COGS. And so, as the 4680 program improves over the course of the year on cost, as Drew mentioned, and then the non-cell portion of the factory improves and we see a pretty good trajectory in the Austin facility. A similar story exists in the Berlin factory. It does not have 4680 as an input, but for that factory, the journey to complete localization is still ongoing. And so, over the course of this year, as volume increases, more localization occurs, we do see a good path to cost reduction in the Berlin factory as well. In existing factories, we talk about this on every call, so I don't need to rehash it, but the expectation is that every existing factory improves all of their key metrics and we continue to see the progress there. There's also a handful of other costs in which we have influence, but the philosophy here is that, we're aggressively going across every cost bucket that we can. Within the world that we don't control, the two major costs there being logistics, which fortunately is moving in our favor, and I think our supply chain team has done a great job, both on logistics optimization and taking advantage of reduced spot rates where they can. So thank you to our supply chain team. And then there's the commodities world, which has been a huge pain point in our cost structure over the last, say, two years or so, and we're still kind of at the maximum of pain for commodities in our cost structure. It kind of maximize -- max down in the second half of last year. We did start to see, in Q1, a little bit of improvement. We think there'll be a little bit more improvement in Q2, but...
Elon Musk:
Lithium has dropped a lot. It's worth mentioning that the price of lithium has dropped significantly.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. And that's the piece that we expect to see more impact on in Q2. And, generally, as a company, we do expect commodity prices to come down and have a more meaningful impact in the second half of the year.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
So this is our approach. How that nets out, I mean, just a lot of risk, and we'll have to see how the year progresses.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, how has global order intake tracked since the most recent round of price cuts?
Elon Musk:
I think the overall thing we can say is that orders are in excess of production.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And maybe the last question from investors, can you give updated specs and pricing for Cybertruck and any new features that will make it to production?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think we'll save that for the Cybertruck handover, which will hopefully be around the end of Q3 this year. And one thing I am confident of saying is that, it's an incredible product, it's a hall of famer, I think. And a product like this only comes once in a long while. So it will not be disappointed at all. It's amazing.
Martin Viecha :
Great. Thank you very much. And let's go to analyst questions. We'll start with Alex Potter from Piper Sandler. Alex, go ahead and unmute.
Alex Potter:
Can you hear me?
Martin Viecha :
Yes.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Alex Potter:
Okay. Perfect. So, first question was on Lathrop. Obviously, that's -- it's great to see the growth there. Just wondering when you think that facility might be closer to full utilization? Are you just sort of deliberately working your way up the S curve there? Demand, obviously, isn't the limitation. So what are what are the steps, I guess, to unlocking full utilization there?
Andrew Baglino:
Sure. There are some classic factory ramp aspects of what's going on in Lathrop. We actually had two phases of the CapEx there. We phased some of the general assembly parts of the facility. But in addition, we also have ramps with our suppliers that we are following, so both on the sell side and on the power electronics side. And we will see that unlock in the latter half of this year with both those inputs. So the overall facility was phased with the second phase of CapEx coming online towards the end of this year.
Alex Potter:
Okay. Great. And then I guess my second question is on your ability to serve other markets out of Shanghai. Obviously, the facility in Berlin should be opening up your ability to, I guess, allocate more vehicles to Southeast Asia, Australia, other areas. I'm just wondering what other regions do you think you're maybe not yet serving effectively? What are your timelines for addressing some of those gaps in your regional exposure? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Yes. That's a good question because there are still many parts of the world that we do not yet serve with respect to vehicles especially. So we do expect to open up new markets around the world. And while those markets are not necessarily individually gigantic, they do add up to add a whole bunch of markets. They do collectively sum up to something significant. So it's high time that Tesla operates its cars to the rest of the world, and that is something that we intend to do.
Martin Viecha :
Okay. Thank you very much. Let's go to the next analyst, George from Canaccord. Go ahead and unmute.
George Gianarikas:
Hi. Thanks for taking my question. I was wondering, first, if you could discuss your FSD take rates and whether you've seen any significant positive or negative change there? And also, given that you've reduced the prices for your vehicles, do you think you need to do that for FSD as well? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Well, I can kind of answer the details on the FSD take rate, but the -- it's a tricky pricing question, because the value of a car that is autonomous is enormous. So in a way, the price right now is an option value on an autonomous vehicle. And that value is -- that will ultimately be very significant. And it's really -- yes. I mean, for those that are using the FSD beta, I think you can see the improvements are really quite dramatic. There'll be a little bit of two steps forward, one step back between releases for those trying the beta. But the trend is very clearly towards full self-driving, towards full autonomy. And I hesitate to say this, but I think we'll do it this year. So that's what it looks like. Yes.
George Gianarikas:
Thank you. Maybe on the dramatic change we've seen in EV-related commodity prices. Do you think it's a reflection of any recent overcapacity in mining and refining, or is that sort of a coincident indicator on global EV demand? And how do you expect those prices to kind of track over the next several quarters? Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Man, I wish I had a crystal ball to answer your question. I don't know if we can provide a question that would -- with -- that would have any value really. I think we're in uncertain times. And if somebody got a crystal ball they can lend me, I'd really like to borrow it. But these are uncertain times. My guess is this it's economic to me whether for about a year or so. And then if we hold roughly 12 months and then -- but this is my guess. It's just pure speculation. Stormy weather for about 12 months and then provided there are no major geopolitical wildcards that show up, that things start getting sunny around spring next year.
Andrew Baglino:
The only thing I would say on the -- like EV materials markets. They're not all super liquid and some of them, for example, like less than -- like single-digit percentage of the market has actually traded on the spot market. And not only are they not super liquid, there's not -- like storage isn't particularly fast for all of materials. So like small mismatches in supply and demand drive, like large price wins, not really real price wins, but just like temporarily large price swings. So it's hard to read into those price wings. I don't know, Karn if you want to add anything.
Karn Budhiraj:
Yes. Well, this is Karn, by the way. We are seeing, as Elon mentioned, quite a bit of softening in the lithium carbonate market. This was -- six months ago, we were trading at like $85,000 a ton, and today's spot price is about 26%. So there's been a dramatic decrease in that. Of course, we were able to take advantage of low lithium pricing earlier on with fixed price contracts. And we find that this is going to be another opportunity -- opportune moment to basically extend that into the later half of the decade. But we -- at the quantities we're procuring, we're not as impacted by the spot market because we have those contracts in place, and we're just going to be going and doing more of that. The other thing that's happening is because of the price spike, a lot of the companies that are in this business are becoming more ambitious about finding more upstream resources and exploring locations in Africa as well as South America. So that's also helping the macro situation with pricing.
Elon Musk:
Yes. But just on the lithium front, to emphasize, the choke point is more -- much more on refining capacity than it is on mining. The theme is actually -- is very common throughout the world, including in the US and really never -- it's just a very common element on earth, is lithium. So, it's much more a question of where is the refining capacity and can the refining capacity keep up? That's really what matters more than where is the lithium ore. It's everywhere basically. I think that same question also extends to refining of the cathode and to some degree, refining of the anode. And this is why we, at Tesla, we're building our lithium refinery capability at Corpus Christi and our cathode refinery outside Austin. It's worth noting, I hope other companies do the same thing. We will have, by far, the most lithium refining capability and the most cathode refining capability in North America, I think, probably more than everyone else combined by a lot. So, can other people please do those work? That would be great. We're begging you. We don't want to do it. Can someone please? Like instead of making a picture-sharing app, please, we're trying, lithium, mining and refining, heavy industry, come on.
Karn Budhiraj:
It's fun. It's actually fun.
Elon Musk:
Yes, yes. Exactly. For real.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
That's we're here, ready to buy.
Elon Musk:
It's -- Tesla is not famous because we want to do it. We have a lot of fish to fry, obviously, but we're doing it because others aren't doing it, and we wish others would do it.
Martin Viecha:
Awesome. Thank you very much. Let's go to Emmanuel Rosner from Deutsche Bank.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Can you hear me?
Martin Viecha:
Yes, we can. Yes.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Perfect. Thank you so much for taking my questions. Maybe a first question for Elon, on your pricing strategy. So, if I understand your message, you're saying Tesla feels it's worth maximizing the volume, increasing the size of the fleet as fast as you can because you'll be able to monetize this over the life cycle of the vehicle. Could you be a little bit more specific around ways you would be able to monetize sort of like this existing fleet in the future. Obviously, I think autonomous seems to be a big piece of it, but my understanding was that robotaxi would probably be for the next-generation vehicle, not the existing ones. So, I guess in which ways would you monetize it?
Elon Musk:
Sorry, the robotaxi terminology can be a bit confusing because that's sort of like a generic term for our next-generation vehicle. And we obviously are working on next-generation vehicle. That's going to be very compelling. This is just not the time to talk about it in details product. So, we internally call it robotaxi. But really, all of the vehicles that have Hardware 3, which is the vast majority of our fleet, we believe will achieve full autonomy. So, there will be a like a Model 3 or Model Y would be a robotaxi, a robotic taxi. So, yes, that's -- to the best of my knowledge that we believe the current hardware can achieve full autonomy.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Understood. And then maybe a question for Zach. Back on the automotive gross margins. So, I think, I guess, a few months ago, even after major price cuts, you felt pretty strongly that 20% automotive gross margin was still probably a reasonable floor. Obviously, the macro has gone worse and additional price cuts have happened. Is there anything else that has changed in terms of the outlook? Is it just the macro deteriorating? Is it the competitive landscape? Anything else that's sort of like makes you think differently around the full year? And is there a way, therefore, to frame a floor?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah. About half of the miss against that previous conversation last quarter is attributed to adjustments we made in pricing in the second half of the quarter. I mean, I guess you could argue that that lowers the floor in a sense. We've also made pricing adjustments so far this quarter. So that brings it down further. About the other half of the miss in Q1 was attributed to things that are nonrecurring. So I mentioned these in my opening remarks. It's a warranty adjustment for cars that were previously produced but not part of the pedigree of cars we're building now and some autopilot-related deferrals as we make some technology changes here that this deferral should get recognized once some of the software catches up. So those two things are not repeating. So hopefully, that helps answer your question.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. I mean there's really two macro factors that are tricky. The biggest being the interest rate. So if there's a very high Fed rate or interest rates are very high, that is -- every time the Fed raise the interest rates that's equivalent to increasing the price of a car. It makes the cars less affordable because people are able to buy cars as a function of what they can afford on a monthly basis. So that's -- so it's just almost directly equivalent to a price increase, is there any kind of interest rate increase. Then the other factor is whenever there is uncertainty in the economy, people will generally postpone new -- big, new capital purchases like a new car. This is a natural human reaction. So if people are reading about layoffs and whatnot in the press, they're like, well, they might be worried about -- they might be laid off. So then there'll be naturally a little more hesitant than they would otherwise be to buy a new car. Now this is just the nature of the auto industry. But there is -- there will be a trans amount of pent-up demand for new cars. So it goes through cycles.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to Ben Kallo from Baird. Ben go ahead and unmute.
Ben Kallo:
Hey guys. When you talk about manifest supply, you talked about Dojo being a product that you can sell outside of Tesla. How do we rank all the things you have going on and then in the economic environment? I mean, like heat pumps and everything else you have going on versus investing in the vehicle business, or is that not the right way to look at it?
Elon Musk:
I'm not sure I fully understand your question, but I'd look at Dojo as like kind of a long-shot bet, but if it's a long-shot bet that pays off, it will pay off in a very, very big way. But potentially, yeah, potentially in a very, very big way, Like in the multi-hundred billion dollar level. But I think it's like still put it in the long shot category, but long shot with a multi-hundred billion dollar potential outcome. And – so it's a bet worth making, but not one you can sort of say like or take it to the bank type of thing. Although, these days take it to the bank, it's maybe not as secure as it used to be. So obviously, big believes in heat pumps. And that is on all this that over time is to do a really good heat pump for homes and commercial offices and stuff. And we have the technology that's really good. But it's still – it's a back burner item. Our focus is very much on vehicles, autonomy, stationary storage, basically solving sustainable energy and solving autonomy, which would be like – solving autonomy, if we're able to have a fleet of several million vehicles that with a software update can be potentially worth several times their original value, that's – that will be – if that happens, that will be the – and I think it will happen, that will be the biggest asset value increase in history, I think.
Ben Kallo:
Thank you. Moving to sort of pricing, but a lot of pundits talk about the pie and losing share or gaining share. But how do you guys look at pricing versus the EVs or price vehicles, or does that not come into the equation? Sorry to ask about pricing again. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
No, it's really just like – every day, we get a daily real-time update of how many cars were ordered yesterday, how many cars were produced yesterday. We must have – if there's a company that's got more real-time data than Tesla – I'm not sure, there's any company on earth that has better real-time data than Tesla, except maybe SpaceX Starlink. So – because like we don't have to -- for the other car companies, they will make the cars, send them to the dealers then the dealers will sell the cars. And then it takes quite a long time for them to get the data back to actually figure out how many cars were sold. Whereas we know how many cars were ordered yesterday throughout the world. So our fingers on the pulse is real-time and does not have latency, whereas the other car companies have a lot of latency in their data. As does the government, the government has a lot of latency in their data. So we're just looking at and saying, okay, what does it take to achieve a clearing price for our vehicle production? And then we'll make a pricing change, and we see what happens immediately and adjust course. So we're adjusting course – and we're thinking about it literally every day, seven days a week. Every seven days, we collect that e-mail and so is the rest of the team. And we try to make the lease down decision that we can. And on balance, I think our decisions are pretty good. Sometimes they'll be down, but on average, they're, I think, better than the rest of the industry.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Just to add on the question about EV market share or ICE. This comes up a lot. I think a lot of the public debate is around this concept of EV market share. We don't look at it that way. I mean, we look at it as -- it's a car market and not the EV market. And actually, the mission of the company requires internal combustion engine cars to be switched over to electric vehicles. So that's what we pay attention to.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I've said that last time, too. We got -- you guys got to stop looking at it as EV -- the EV market. Its how many cars are we selling, just start looking at it that way. All cars will be EVs. It's going to -- I've said this for a long time. We'll look back, I don't know, assuming civilization is still around in 20 years, we'll look back on internal combustion engine vehicles the same way we look back on external combustion engine vehicles, which is like the steam engine. A steam engine is an external combustion engine vehicle. And there's still a few around. They're kind of quirky and kind of cool collectors' items. That's how gasoline cars will be in the future.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to Colin Rusch from Oppenheimer. Colin, go ahead. Unmute please.
Colin Rusch:
Thanks so much, guys. Can you talk a little bit about how much of the actual cost structure is variable on these vehicles? And if you could give us a range on pulse or minus the lithium cost within those contracted volumes that you're seeing?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think -- again, we'd really love to have a crystal ball here, but we don't have it. Depending on what time scale you're looking at, most of the car is variable. So most cost is variable. So -- and probably, if I were to guess, I think we will see improved costs from suppliers, yes, I think we will -- that is our expectation.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And we're already starting to see that, Elon, I think you had mentioned before that we anticipated a crash in the lithium prices and some of that has flowed through by way of lithium carbonate reductions into battery cost. And the same thing will happen with lithium hydroxide. The length of the supply chain matters also because what we're talking about is very far upstream. So by the time it makes sense that battery that ends up in car. It will be several months. But beyond just the commodity pricing, as Zach mentioned earlier, we're also very focused on other metrics that make production very efficient. So, for example, detention and demurrage air expedites. I think our air expedites are down 90%. Detention and demurrage is down 93% from the peaks. That can be hundreds of thousands of dollars per vehicle. So we're sort of attacking all vectors and becoming very efficient.
Colin Rusch:
Okay. And then, my follow-up is really around stationary storage demand on the utility scale. I mean, obviously, there's a gigantic queue for interconnection in the US. And can you talk about the volume of quotation you're seeing at this point around stationary storage for the renewables queue on a global basis? And how much of that is converting into actual sales?
Elon Musk:
Drew, do you want to take that?
Andrew Baglino:
I mean -- yes, I don't -- that's also not exactly how we look at it, really. We're not like -- yes, we're not engaged in the interconnection queue. Like we're focused on ramping Megapack as quickly and efficiently as we can, and we have visibility into the pipelines of a variety of different renewable energy and just pure stationary storage developers and we also develop our own projects. And we're mostly just -- we're being selective in trying to pick the products, the projects that best fit our mission and our objectives.
Elon Musk :
Yes. This -- again, this is not a product call, but we'll have something, I mean, this -- we're making improvements on many fronts, including Megapacks. So I think some of those improvements will improve the speed at which you can connect the Megapacks to the grid.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you. The next question is from Mark Delaney from Goldman Sachs.
Mark Delaney :
Yes. Good afternoon. Thank you for taking the question. Do you still see 2 million units as an upside case for volume this year? And is the gating factor for reaching 1.8 million or 2 million units in 2023 still supply chain, as was mentioned on your last conference call, or is it more about demand at this point?
Elon Musk :
Well, if you have a crystal ball you can lend me back to the crystal ball situation. These are volatile times. From a production standpoint, if things go well, we've got a shot at 2 million vehicles this year. But that's an upside case. And we feel comfortable with 1.8 million. And we'll have to see how this year unfolds.
Mark Delaney :
That's helpful. Thanks. And then the company had spoken at the Investor Day and then for the past conference calls about opening up its vehicle charging network. Can you speak to some of the feedback you've been getting from both Tesla owners and non-Tesla owners? And how the ramp of the charging network may progress from here? Thanks.
Elon Musk :
Drew, do you want to take that?
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. So as you may have seen, we opened our first V4 post in Europe and our Magic Dock post in North America in Q1. I mean, that is indicative of the direction we're heading with universal compatibility for all vehicles no matter where the charge port is, et cetera, in all major markets, and we're going to continue to roll out those sort of improved offerings as we build new stations. We're always balancing like our ability to serve our own customers with our ability to serve new customers when doing that. I think we've been able to balance it rather well. For example, in Europe, 50% of all of our supercharging stations are open to all EVs, and we've been able to do that without any increase in wait times at all for anybody. So we're going to continue to take a similar approach as we do this in North America and China over the coming quarters.
Martin Viecha :
Okay. Thank you very much. Let's go to Rod Lache from Wolfe Research.
Rod Lache :
Hi, everybody. I just wanted to first just follow-up on your comments in your letter about leveraging your cost position as others struggle with unit economics and also taking into account the lifetime revenue, actually in a way that most other automakers will never see just given your service network and supercharging and other attributes. Can you just maybe give us a sense of how far you'd be willing to take this? Are there brackets around the range of initial margin that you'd be comfortable with? And again, any color that you might provide on the updated range of margins that you'd expect in the auto business?
Elon Musk :
I think we may have answered this question or tried to ask this question a few times. But it's difficult to say what the margin will be. It depends on what the macroeconomic environment is like. So for example, if the Fed were to lower the rates, that would be super helpful for demand. If they raise them, that just raises the interest costs that buyers have to pay for to buy a car. So it reduces affordability and therefore, reduces demand. So it's -- but if -- like if we look past, say, this year or like go sometime next year, middle of next year, so I think things are looking really -- I think, like I said, albeit if there's some major geopolitical wildcard that turns up. But in the absence of that, I think I would be very optimistic about middle of next year, end of next year.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Just to add to Elon's comments, just two other points. What's really important for us this year in addition to just managing the day-to-day of the business but is also investing in, as Elon mentioned, what 2024 and 2025 will look like. And so using the cash generated from the sale of products today and reinvesting that, this is very important for us. And I think that what happens to margins over the next couple of quarters that only matters in the context of what that means for our ability to reinvest into 2024 and 2025. And we have a lot of space before that becomes something that we have to revisit our investment plans. And so we're planning to keep the business healthy. But I just want to caution folks about reading too much into what happens over the near-term here because we're very focused as a company on making sure that when we exit this macroeconomic situation, this company is positioned in the best possible way.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly.
Rod Lache:
Just to elaborate on that point though, the revenue, the long-term lifetime revenue that you're targeting from each vehicle is massive. So if you took that to the extreme, it would seem that you'd be comfortable with a relatively low initial margin. Am I misinterpreting that, or is that exactly right?
Elon Musk:
Correct. That's exactly right.
Rod Lache:
Okay. And the -- normally, in a recession, when consumers feel less financially secure, actually price elasticity deteriorates. Just based on your pulse taking of the consumer, do you have a view on elasticity of demand?
Elon Musk:
Well, I can't emphasize enough the whole -- just fundamental question of affordability. For most people, their ability to buy a car is a function of can they make monthly payment or not. And so like I said, if interest rates are really high, like they are right now, then in some cases, people can't get a loan at all. So it's -- I think probably banks are pretty -- not leaning forward in providing loans, I expect, these days. So that's -- like there is -- there is quite a powerful story here when you -- going back to something as alluded to a moment ago -- I mentioned a moment ago that Tesla is in a uniquely strong strategic position. Because we're the only ones making cars that technically, we could sell for zero profit for now and then yield actually tremendous economics in the future through autonomy, no one else can do that. I'm not sure how many people will appreciate the profundity of what I've just said, but it is extremely significant.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to Adam Jonas from Morgan Stanley.
Adam Jonas:
Hi everybody. So, first, Elon, good luck with tomorrow's launch of Boca Chica. Break a leg.
Elon Musk:
Thanks. You can't have too much luck in the rocket business, that's for sure.
Adam Jonas:
Incredible. So, now that you've gotten another Twitter architecture kind of intimately well over the past six months, what can you tell Tesla stakeholders about how an X.com or Super App could be potentially accelerative to Tesla's business model?
Elon Musk:
Well, I don't know. I guess it could make it potentially make it easier to buy cars. So, -- We've string somewhat off topic here because I think there's some benefit. I think probably there's some benefit, yes.
Adam Jonas:
I get it, Elon,. So just as a follow-up on manufacturing, you're a student of history. And you'll note that back in 1913, Henry Ford introduced the moving assembly line in Highland Park, Michigan. And the price of a Model T, which had already been undercutting cars around the time, fell another 70% or 80%, and hundreds of rival car companies went bust. I'm wondering if history is repeating itself here, Elon, and that the recent pattern of cuts with you is way ahead of the cost curve compared to competition? Is this -- it seems like it's a calculated strategy, not just in reaction to competition or changing supply demand in the market, but your -- could we catalyze some Darwinian forces in the EV market?
Elon Musk:
Well, I mean, we're not trying to say, take pricing actions in order to be deliberately -- to deliberately undermine competitors or anything like that. We really don't think about competitors that much. We just look at, do people like our cars, how can we make the product better, can they afford our cars? And the sort of the things like improving service and whatnot. But actually, we do have this unique strategic advantage that we have -- we're making a car that if autonomy pans out and we think it will, where that asset is actually will be worth a hell a lot more in the future than it is now. So, it is taking to be possible to sell it at zero profit, but still have the net present value of future cash flows associated with that asset very significant.
Andrew Baglino:
And service and charging and insurance and all of these other ongoing revenue streams that other companies don't have.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Karn Budhiraj:
Certainly, we want all EVs to succeed, too. We just want to say that we're not like some malicious attacks to try to destroy everybody.
Elon Musk:
Definitely not. We're like opening up superchargers. We've made our patents available for free. So, it's like -- we're trying to be helpful here. So we're not out to destroy competitors or anything like that. We're trying to help competitors, frankly, in any way we can.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to Dan Levy from Barclays.
Dan Levy:
Hi. Good evening. Thank you. First question, you're ramping supply at Austin and Berlin. So I wanted to understand just how critical it is to further increase volume at those plants just to get the vertical integration benefits in the face of the market with some demand questions. And just broadly, should we -- I mean, historically, you've been operating at the pace at which your supply allows you to produce as opposed to gauging to demand. Should we generally expect that you're going to continue to produce at your -- whatever the max capacity that you're allowed within your supply constraints, regardless of what the broader economic environment is just to continue to get that volume out there?
Elon Musk:
So that is -- yes, I mean, there could be like obviously a macro shock that is so severe that people just stop buying cars for some reason. But in the absence of that, we will continue to grow output at a rapid clip.
Dan Levy:
Great. Thank you. And then just on the margins associated with Austin and Berlin. You mentioned Austin want to have the margin drag until you reach intended volumes. I don't know if you can disclose what those volumes are. And then maybe you could just remind us of what the margin profile of Austin and Berlin will look like versus Shanghai once you get the vertical integration benefits in place?
Elon Musk:
Well, probably one have be quite as good as Shanghai. Shanhai is hard to -- has a very efficient cost structures, obviously, our lowest cost structure in the world. But we do expect to be -- make significant improvements in Austin and Berlin and continue to make improvements in Fremont as well. So...
Roshan Thomas:
For making improvements in North America & Berlin cost structures, we've increased -- this is Roshan by the way. We increased our localization efforts strategically. So that will then drive down our days on-hand requirements reducing tied up working capital. We've made 10% quarter-over-quarter improvement in days on-hand. So we'll continue that improve cost structure as supplier localization improves.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. And our final question comes from Philippe Houchois from Jefferies.
Philippe Houchois:
Yes, good evening, and thanks for taking the question. It's slightly longer term. I completely agree with your comments that we should look at Tesla in terms of auto market share and not EV market share. But I'm just wondering, as you build up the market share globally, is there a limit to the direct selling business model as you practice it? And should we think about -- going forward, you need to look into the agency or using importers to basically develop market share more smoothly, I guess, globally? And so in other words, is there kind of fell by date for the direct business model as you practice it today?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Seems to be working well so far because we hear different feedback from customers who miss the human interaction or unhappy with the service, and I'm just wondering if you're seeing some growth pains in there that would lead you to change. You're not seeing that?
Elon Musk:
Well, I mean, there are -- since we're always going to have some growing pains where at times -- and it depends on which geography we're talking about where sometimes service is behind sales, sometimes it's ahead of sales. This is -- I mean, Telsa's growing, I believe, faster than any company in history that makes a large complex manufactured object. So these are – as you try to max – it's always difficult to match exponentials. So – but I think it is helpful to have the feedback loop with a service because that means we feel the pain of service, and then we can address the design to make the car need less service. And I think that gives us the right incentive structure, like because the best service is no service. The car doesn't break. And whereas if you have say a dealer network that is reliant upon services revenue, then you arguably have a misalignment of incentives where they're making money on service. But actually, we want to – the best thing for the consumer is the car doesn't need servicing so.
Philippe Houchois:
Yeah. And then last one, if I can follow up. Have you worked out, I mean, for many of your traditional competitors, a fair amount of profits for them comes from selling spare parts and servicing, and you don't have that in your profit structure. And have you looked at the deficit you have compared to your peers?
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Actually, this one -- assuming I could wax on about for a while because really, people didn't understand that the best short-selling argument against Tesla for the longest time was the fact that Tesla does not have an existing fleet and that the auto industry, the reason incumbents succeed and newcomers fail, the biggest reason is that the incumbents have a large fleet, and they're able to sell new cars at close to zero margin and then sell spare parts at a very high margin, sort of razors and blades type thing. And so the only way to actually succeed for a newcomer to succeed is to have a product that is so compelling that people are willing to pay a premium over the incumbent product. And in the absence of electrification and autonomy, I don't think a newcomer can succeed.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much, everyone. Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for this quarter. We'll see you again in three months from now. Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Good afternoon everyone and welcome to Tesla's Fourth Quarter 2022 Q&A Webcast. My name is Martin Viecha, VP of Investor Relations and I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q4 results were announced at about 3:00 P.M. Central Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the Q&A session portion of today’s call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please use the raise hand button to join the question queue. But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you, Martin. So 2022 -- just going through the 2022 recap. It was a fantastic year for Tesla. It was our best year ever on every level. Team did an amazing job. It's an honor, of course, to work with such an incredibly talented group of people. So, in 2022, we delivered over 1.3 million cars and achieved a 17% operating margin, the highest among any volume carmaker, I think maybe among any carmaker. While doing so, we generated $12.5 billion in net income and $7.5 billion in free cash flow. Importantly, the Tesla team achieved these records, despite the fact that 2022 was an incredibly challenging year due to forced shutdowns, very high interest rates, and many delivery challenges. So, it's worth noting that all these records were in the phase of massive difficulties. [Indiscernible] credit to the team for achieving that. The most common question we've been getting from investors is about demand. Thus far -- so I want to put that concern to rest. Thus far in January, we've seen the strongest orders year-to-date than ever in our history. We currently are seeing orders at almost twice the rate of production. So it’s hard to say that will continue twice the rate of production, but the orders are high. And we've actually raised the Model Y price a little bit in response to that. So, we don’t -- we think demand will be good despite probably a contraction in the automotive market as a whole. So, basically, price really matters. I think there's just a vast number of people that wanted to buy a Tesla car, but can't afford it. And so these price changes really make a difference for the average consumer. It’s sometimes for those -- for people who are well -- who have a lot of money, they sort of forget about how important affordability is. And it's always been our goal at Tesla to make cars that are affordable to as many people as possible, so I'm glad that we're able to do so. And yes, so I think it's a good thing, all things considered. We're also making very good progress on cost control and we're seeing the cost production in Berlin and Austin drop commensurate with the growth in production, as you'd expect, so yeah. With respect to Autopilot, as of now, we deployed full-self driving beta for city streets to roughly 400,000 customers in North America. This is a huge milestone for autonomy as FSD Beta is the only way any consumer can actually test the latest AI-powered autonomy. And we're currently at about 100 million miles of FSD outside of highways. And our published data shows that improvement in safety system -- stuttering here, safety statistics, it's very clear. So we would not have released the FSD Beta if the safety statistics were not excellent. Regarding batteries, production rate of 4680 cells reached 1,000 cars a week at the end of last year, and we're increasing capacity for 4680 cells by another 100 gigawatt-hours as announced at Giga Nevada yesterday. Our long-term goal is to get to well in excess of 1,000 gigawatt-hours of cells produced internally and continue to use the self cell providers. So to be clear, we will continue to use other cell providers. Just that the demand for lithium ion batteries is quasi-infinite and will be for quite some time. So we feel we can scale a lot faster using both suppliers and internally produced cells. And we've got an amazing plan for making the 4680 cell low-cost and high energy density. So, energy storage also saw record growth and that is continuing to accelerate. That's always worth remembering that the three pillars of a sustainable energy future are obviously electric vehicles, solar and wind, and then the third key item is stationary storage to store the energy from solar and wind because obviously, the sun doesn't shine all the time and the wind doesn't blow all the time. So you have those three things, you can convert all of it to a fully sustainable situation many times over, actually. So, I would like to just make it clear that there is a path to a fully sustainable future for humanity, and our goal at Tesla is to accelerate progress on that path as much as humanly possible. So yeah, so we were obviously ramping up Megapack production. And we expect it to grow at a rate quite a bit faster than our - the goal output. So in conclusion, we are taking a view that we want to keep making and selling as many cars as we can. We believe we can keep pushing for strong volume growth while retaining the industry's best operating margins. As we mentioned many times before, we want to be the best manufacturer. But really, manufacturing technology will be our most important long-term strength. And we'll talk more about our upcoming plans at the March 1st Investor Day. And lastly, I want to once again thank all of our employees for delivering another record-breaking year. Congratulations, guys.
Martin Viecha:
Thanks, Elon. And I think Zach has some opening remarks as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks, Martin. So as Elon mentioned, 2022 was a terrific year for Tesla. I also want to congratulate the Tesla team and also say thank you to our suppliers for your support during quite a volatile year. On a full year basis
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much, Zach. Let's now go to investor questions. The first question is, some analysts are claiming that Tesla orders, net of cancellations, came in at a rate less than half of production in the fourth quarter. This has raised demand concerns. Can you elaborate on order trends so far this year and how they compare to current production rates? I think…
Elon Musk :
We already answered that question.
Martin Viecha:
Yes, exactly.
Elon Musk :
Demand far exceeds production, and we actually are making some small price increases as a result.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The second question is in a similar vein. What has the initial reaction been to global price reductions in early 1Q 2023, specifically in terms of order intake levels? We've answered that one as well. So let's go to the next one. The next investor question is, will Tesla be able to take full advantage of advanced manufacturing production credits for battery cells packs? So $3,700 per long-range Model 3 and Model Y, it's $45 a kilowatt-hour for autos and energy products and how much does Tesla expect to earn in the coming year from these credits?
Elon Musk:
I'll say a little bit about it, then I think Zach will add some. Long term, we expect these -- the value of these credits to be very significant. You can do the math if we were to get anyone your 1,000 gigawatt-hours a year of production or even a few hundred gigawatt-hours, it's very significant. So -- but the credits do rely upon domestic manufacturing. And in the case of Panasonic domestic manufacturing, we're splitting the value of the credits. So it -- the value of credits this year will not be gigantic, but I think it could be gigantic -- we think it probably will be very significant in the future.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, just to add and input some boundaries on what we're expecting in terms of impact to Tesla for this year. So different products, we think, will get different amounts of credit. The regulations here are still influx and there continues to be updates so this is just our best understanding at the moment. But we think on the order of $150 million to $250 million per quarter this year and growing over the course of the year as our volumes grow. And part of the work we're doing here, which is part of what this incentive package is trying to incentivize is, as Elon mentioned, to move more manufacturing onshore in the United States, which is Tesla's plans anyways. And so I think we're pretty well positioned over the coming years to take advantage of this. But then also part of what the goal of this incentive package is, is to improve adoption from our customers. And so we also want to use these incentives to improve affordability as we think about what the price points are in our products going forward. And so as we're thinking about our pricing changes in the US, a couple of weeks ago that we announced, we were looking at what the credit benefit to Tesla would be to make sure that customers are able to receive the benefit not only from this that were received to some extent but also on the consumer-facing side, which is currently $7,500 per car of tax credit, assuming that -- subject to the MSRP caps and the income caps. So we want to use this to accelerate sustainable energy, which is our mission and also the goal of this bill.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. The next question from investors is, after recent price cuts, analyst released expectations that Tesla automotive gross margin, excluding leasing and credits, will drop below 20% and average selling price around $47,000 across all models. Where do you see average selling price and gross margins after the price cuts?
Elon Musk:
Yes, go ahead, Zach.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, I'll jump in on this. So there is certainly a lot of uncertainty about how the year will unfold, but I'll share what's in our current forecast for a moment. So based upon these metrics here, we believe that we'll be above both of the metrics that are stated in the question, so 20% automotive gross margin, excluding leases and rent credits and then $47,000 ASP across all models. And so two other comments I want to make on this. Just tactically on sequential ASP changes from Q4 to Q1. And just as a reminder, the ASP reduction is not as large as the reduction in configurator prices. As in Q4, we had backlog customers that we're delivering cars to at a lower price book, given that backlogs had been so long for so much of 2022. But then also, there are various programs in place that we used in Q4 that lowered ASPs. The second comment I wanted to make here is that as a management team here, we're most focused on what our operating margin is. And so as other areas of the business become more important, particularly the energy business, which is growing faster than the vehicle business and as we're heavily focused on operating leverage here, improving efficiency of our overheads, we think the right metric for us to be focused on is operating margin. And so I wanted to make sure that I shared that with the investor community as well, because that is what we're primarily managing to now.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Something that I think some of these smart retail investors understand, but I think a lot of others maybe don't is that the -- every time we sell a car, it has the ability, just from uploading software to have full self-driving enabled and full self-driving is obviously getting better very rapidly. So that's actually a tremendous upside potential because all of those cars, with a few exceptions -- I mean, only a small percentage of cars don't have Hardware 3. So that means that there's millions of cars were full self-driving can be sold at essentially 100% gross margin. And the value of it grows as the autonomous capability grows. And then when it becomes fully autonomous, that is a value increase in the fleet. That might be the biggest asset value increase of anything in history. Yeah.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next investor question. Since Elon started political influencing, polls from Morning Consult and YouGov show…
Elon Musk:
YouGov, crush that with your left.
Martin Viecha:
…show Tesla brand favorability declining in 2022 and division among partisan lines. Such brand damage can impact demand. Does Tesla track favorability? And how will any brand image be mitigated?
Elon Musk:
Well, let me check my Twitter account. Okay, so I've got 127 million followers. It continues to grow very rapidly. That suggests that I'm reasonably popular. It might not be popular the way with some people, but for the vast majority of people, my follow count speaks for itself. I'm the most interactive account, social media account, I think, maybe in the world, certainly on Twitter, and that's actually predated the Twitter acquisition. So I think Twitter is actually an incredibly powerful tool for driving demand for Tesla. And I would really encourage companies out there of all kinds, automotive or otherwise, to make more use of Twitter and to use their Twitter accounts in ways that are interesting and informative, entertaining, and it will help them drive sales just as it has with Tesla. So the net value of Twitter, apart from a few people are complaining, is gigantic, obviously.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question. Please provide a detailed explanation of where you are on the 4680 ramp. What are the current roadblocks? And when do you expect to scale to 10,000 vehicles a year -- a week?
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah. Thanks, Martin. First, I just want to say congrats and thanks to the Tesla 4680 team for achieving 1,000 a week in Q4. It was no small feat. Definitely a result of more than a couple of years of hard work. As far as where we stand in Texas, one of four lines are in production, with the remaining three in stages of commissioning and install. Really, our 2023 goal as a 4680 team is to deliver a cost-effective ramp of 4680s well ahead of Cybertruck. Focus areas are dialing in and improving the quality of the high-volume supply mechanical parts and driving factory process yields up as much as possible. Between two of those things, if we had achieved those key goals, we'll be well set up to -- for a major 4680 year in 2024.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Next investor question is Elon said previously that FSD Hardware 4 will most likely come first in Cybertruck. Is that still the current plan? Do you expect there to be an upgrade path for Hardware 3 cars to Hardware 4?
Elon Musk:
Yes, Cybertruck will have Hardware 4. And to be clear, for 2023, Cybertruck will not be a significant contributor to the bottom line but it will be into next year. So it's an incredible product. I can't wait to drive it personally. It will be the car that I drive every day. I actually just I'm wearing the T-shirt with this matched glass. And it's just one of those products that only comes along once in a while, and it's really special. So yeah, so with respect to upgrading cars on Hardware 3, I don't think that will be needed. Hardware 3 will not be as good as Hardware 4, but I'm confident that Hardware 3 will so far exceed the average -- the safety of the average human. So what we're aiming for is like how do we get ultimately to, let's say, for argument's sake if Hardware 3 can be, say, 200% or 300% safer than human, Hardware 4 might be 500% or 600%. It will be Hardware 5 beyond that. But what really matters is are we improving the average safety on the road. But it is the cost and difficulty of retrofitting Hardware 3 with Hardware 4 is quite significant. So it would not be, I think, economically feasible to do so.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is for Zach. Zach, when do you think Tesla Insurance will become big enough revenue source to warrant providing more details in the financials of the business so investors can compare it to other insurance companies?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I think it's probably going to take some time before this business is large enough for specific financial disclosures. But I'm happy to provide an update on where we stand in the business. So, we're currently at a $300 million annual premium run rate as of the end of last year. We're growing 20% a quarter, so it's growing faster than the growth in our vehicle business. And in the states in which we're operating, on average, 17% of the customers in the states are using a Tesla Insurance product. And that number continues to tick up as we spend more time in markets. And we see most of the adoption occurring when folks take delivery of a new car, as they're setting up insurance for the first time as opposed to going back and switching when they already have insurance set up. So there's an inherent stickiness in the Insurance business.
Elon Musk:
No, go ahead.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
No, I was just going to say, just as a broader reminder on kind of the motivation for starting this business, it was to improve and still is to improve the total cost of ownership of our cars, given that we're seeing high premiums of insurance from third-party companies. And that remains our priority here. We'll obviously run this as a healthy business, but we want to make sure we keep our costs low and insurance stays affordable to our customers.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And so there are two really important side benefit to our Tesla Insurance that are worth mentioning, one of which Zach alluded to, which is that, just by Tesla operating insurance for our cars at a competitive rate, that makes the other car insurance companies offer better rates for Teslas. So it has a bigger effect than you think because it improves total cost of insurance costs even when they don't use Tesla Insurance, because now the guy [ph] goes up to the world have to compete with Tesla and cannot charge outrageous insurance for Teslas. So it's great. So it has an amplified effect, very important. Then, it is also giving us a good feedback loop into minimizing the cost of repair of Teslas, for all Teslas worldwide, because we obviously want to minimize the cost of repairing at Tesla if it's in a collision and for Tesla Insurance. And previously, we didn't actually have good insight into that, because the other insurance companies would cover the cost. And actually, the cost in some cases, were unreasonably high. So we've actually adjusted the design of the car and made changes in the software of the car to minimize the cost of repair, obviously minimize -- first, the best repair is no repair, avoid the accident entirely, which since every Tesla comes with the most advanced active safety in the world, whether or not you buy full self-driving, you still get the intelligence of full self-driving or active safety, active collision prevention. So it's giving us this really good feedback before, again, reducing cost -- total cost of ownership and also just figuring out how to get -- if somebody's cars in an accident, most accidents are actually small. They're like a broken fender or scratched side of the car or something like, the vast majority of accidents. But we're actually solving how to get somebody's car repaired very quickly and efficiently and back in their hands. And like I said, those improvements actually apply then to old cars. And we're making just to emphasize another key point, because some of these points might be like, so I apologize for being repetitive. But it's remarkable how small changes in design of the bumper and improving -- obviously improving the logistics of spare part or providing spare parts needed for collision repair, have an enormous effect on the repair cost. So, if you're waiting for a part to get repaired and that part takes a month, now you've got a month of having to rent another car. It's extremely expensive. And of course, you're missing the car that you love and the one you actually want to drive. So, this has actually a very significant effect on total cost of ownership and customer happiness.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question from investors is, is Cybertruck production still on track for mid-year?
Elon Musk:
We do expect production to start, I don't know, maybe sometime this summer. But, I always like credit downplay at the start of production, because the start of production is always very slow. It increases exponentially, but it's always very slow at first. So I wouldn't put too much stock in start of production. It's kind of when does volume production actually happen, and that's next year.
Andrew Baglino:
Thank you. That's great Elon. Like just to emphasize on that, we've started installation of production equipment here in Giga Texas, castings, GA, general assembly, body shops. We built all our beta vehicles, some more coming still in the next month, but as you said the ramp will really come 2024.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the last investor question is, with near-infinite global demand for energy storage.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Where will Tesla build the next Megapack factories? How many are needed on each continent?
Elon Musk:
It's a good question. It's not something we -- I think we'll provide an update about that in the future, but it is something we're thinking about very carefully. I really kind of like what is the fastest path to 1,000-gigawatt-hours a year of production. And you'll see announcements come out later this year and next, that answer that question.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Okay. And now let's go to analyst questions. The first analyst question comes from Rod Lache from Wolfe Research. And Rod, feel free to unmute your mic.
Rod Lache:
I think I’m unmuted. Can you hear me?
Martin Viecha:
Yes. We can.
Rod Lache:
Okay. Thank you. Just firstly, it sounds like your 1.8 million unit volume indication for this year is somewhat more supply constrained than demand constrained. Then I have a follow-up on cost. Is that an accurate statement?
Elon Musk:
Well, okay. I mean, our internal production potential is actually closer to two million vehicles, but we were saying 1.8 million, because -- I don't know, it just always seems to be some force majeure thing that happened somewhere on earth. And we don't control if there's like earthquakes, tsunamis, wars, pandemics, et cetera. So, if it's a smooth year, actually, without some big supply chain interruption or massive problem, we actually have the potential to do 2 million cars this year. We're not committing to that, but I'm just saying that's the potential. So – and I think there would be demand for that, too.
Rod Lache:
Yeah. Thanks for clarifying that. And on the cost side, the numbers that we just saw from you, as you pointed out, were weighed down by the 4680 ramp, the Berlin, Austin, Giga castings, processes, not at rate. Can you give us a bit of an indication of the headwind that you're absorbing from those things like you did last quarter? And then lastly, on cost, do you think that we can tease out an interesting data point from on where battery costs are headed from this announcement that you just made last night? If I'm correct, it looks like the investment cost per kilowatt-hour is less than half of what I've seen anywhere else, maybe $30 a kilowatt-hour for that capacity?
Elon Musk:
I don't think we want to say the specific number, but it's interesting, if you look at the size of the – of Giga Nevada that is allocated to make 100 gigawatt-hours, is a small fraction of the size that currently makes about 35.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I mean, the goals we've outlaid at Battery Day on using the investment required to deploy cell manufacturing, I mean, that's been a key focus of ours and the team is doing a good job hitting the marks on that focus.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. And it goes back to the point, I was making. I said, it several years ago, I think Tesla's really the competitive strength that will be, by far, the hardest for other companies to replicate is Tesla being just damn good at manufacturing and having the most advanced manufacturing technology in the world. And if you've got that sort of advanced manufacturing toolbox, you can apply it to many things and we're applying it now to battery cells. I should also say that, there – we have other products in development. We're not going to announce them obviously, but they're very exciting. And I think we'll work for those clients when they – when we reveal them. Tesla has the most exciting product of any company on Earth by a long shot. And we'll continue to, I think, be in that position. We've got more great ideas. I mean, we know what to do with. So the future is very exciting. As I said in the last call, there's going to be bumps along the way and we'll probably have a pretty difficult recession this year, probably. I hope not, but probably. And so, one can't predict the short-term sort of stock value, because when there's a recession and people panic and the stock market then prices of stocks, worth value of stocks can drop sometimes to surprisingly low levels. But long term, I'm convinced that, Tesla will be the most valuable company on Earth.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And I think, Zach, there was a question on cost headwind in Q4.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah. I mean, our weighted average COGS for the company, if you were to assume Austin and Berlin were at the cost structure of our other factories, it was on the order of 2,000 to 2,500 of headwinds. So I think from there, you can back into margin impact of those factories as of end of Q4.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And let's go to the next question from Pierre Ferragu from New Street Research.
Pierre Ferragu:
Thanks, Martin. Can you hear me well?
Martin Viecha:
Yes.
Pierre Ferragu:
Excellent. Zach, actually, I'd like to follow up on the data point you just gave on cost. If I look back at the COGS per car, you guys bottom close to $36,000 in the middle of 2021. And then the number went up as you had to face with inflation in input costs and the ramp of Berlin and Texas. And this quarter, I think we are close to $40,000 and we peaked maybe close to $42,000 at some point last year. And so my question from here is, how much time do you think it takes you to get back to this kind of $36,000, which would mean Berlin and Texas and those input costs, all that stuff is normalizing, is that like -- and that would be like a kind of like a 10% decline in the COGS per car? Is that something we can hope to see this year or is that too optimistic?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
The Austin and Berlin ramp inefficiencies in 4680 will make a substantial amount of progress on that over the course of the year, and that's within Tesla's control. We're doing a lot of work on cost reduction outside of that. And we talked about supply chain costs, expedite, logistics, attacking everything. On the raw materials and inflation side, where lithium is the large driver there and this was a meaningful source of cost increase for us, we'll have to see where lithium prices go. And we're not fully exposed to lithium prices, but I think in general, is what we've seen from our forecast here, cost per car of lithium in 2023 will be higher than 2022. So that's a headwind that would have to be overcome to return back to those levels. So, I don't think we'll get there this year, but I think we'll make progress. And we'll continue to find ways to offset these raw material costs that we don't have control over. [Indiscernible] is there anything on that?
Roshan Thomas:
Yes. Like on the non-cells raw material, we begin to capture benefits of indexes tapering out, but due to the length of various supply chains, it does take time before this is reflected in our financials. And while alumina is down like 20% year-over-year, steel is about 30% down year-over-year, the global non-cells raw materials market continues to be influenced by geopolitical situations in Europe, high production cost due to labor cost increases and energy spikes and disruptions due to natural disasters like typhoon in Korea four months ago, pandemic lockdowns. So, we believe that meaningful price corrections will ultimately come, but it remains uncertain exactly when. In the meantime, we continue to redesign supply chain to make it more efficient and work with our supplier partners to find more efficiencies, streamline logistics and transportation to reduce costs.
Pierre Ferragu:
Excellent. Thank you. And I…
Martin Viecha:
Sorry, do you want to go say something?
Andrew Baglino:
I was going to say, we're also -- our fleet is starting to mature, the 3, Y fleet. And we're gathering a lot of data out of that fleet to understand how we can sort of bring some margin that we didn't know we had out of the product. So over the course of 2023 on the powertrain side, we're actually going to go after sort of some materials where we're paying for more performance than we need, or we have more content than we need, without impacting reliability at all. And that will actually add up to a pretty significant cost reduction on the powertrain side over the course of 2023. So we're not just sort of relying on supply. We're also doing design actions to bring cost out.
Elon Musk:
Yes. My guess is, if there is -- if the recession is a serious one and I think it probably will be, but I hope it isn't, that would lead to meaningful decreases in almost all of our input costs. So we expect to see deflation in our input costs most likely, which would then lead to, yes, better margin. I'm just guessing here. So, this is -- that would be my guess.
Pierre Ferragu:
Thank you, so much. So as a quick follow-up, Elon, I was thinking about like FSD, and when you look at like the situation today compared to a year ago, it's -- like the progress has been, like, amazing in the quality of the product, but also its rollout. And so, I was wondering, how much is this like impacting the take rate of FSD today? So do you already see that people are getting more excited by FSD, because they see it around them on 400,000 cars and they see the value of the service already, or is that too early to really see like, to expect like an uptick in the take rate?
Elon Musk:
The trend is very strong towards use of FSD. And as you alluded to, with each incremental improvement, the enthusiasm obviously increases. And -- so, I think something that still a lot of people out there don't quite appreciate is that Tesla -- of course say like, Tesla is as much as a software company as a hardware company, but Tesla is really one of the world's leading AI companies. This is kind of a big deal with AI on the software side and on the hardware side. With the Hardware 3 inference computer, still the most efficient inference computer in the world despite being, at this point, five years old from the design point. And Hardware 4 coming and then Hardware 5 beyond that, where there are significant leaps. And the Dojo computer, we expect to be using that operationally at Tesla later this year. And we're seeing just a lot of world-class AI talent join the company. There's also the long-term potential of Optimus where we're able to use our expertise in electric motors and power electronics, batteries and advanced manufacturing to be able to make a humanoid robot that is actually useful and can be made at high volume with exceptional capabilities, because of the -- or robot AI that, where we take the -- because the car is like a robot on four wheels and Optimus is a robot on legs. But the -- as we get closer and closer to solving real-world AI, and we don't see anyone even close to us in achieving this, the value -- I think, you appreciate this and a few others do, but most don't know what I'm talking about. And so -- but it's -- this is the thing that has order of magnitude potential market cap improvement for Tesla.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the next question comes from Alex Potter from Piper Sandler.
Alex Potter:
Can you hear me, guys?
Martin Viecha:
Yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes
Alex Potter:
Okay, great. So a quick one on FSD. This, I guess, for Zach. Obviously, you unlocked some deferred revenue in the quarter that will translate presumably into higher margins on every incremental sale going forward so long as people opt in for FSD. But was wondering if you're able to disclose the percentage of the $15,000 price that you're not going to be able to recognize as revenue upfront rather than deferred?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I mean, the way that we've structured this is a full self-driving package has two components. There's enhanced Autopilot, the price of which is listed on the website. We fully recognize that. Then there's an incremental, which is for the additional features of full self-driving offers and we've released a portion of that. And then there's a minority of the total package that's remaining that will be released over time as software updates are there. And in our shareholder letter, in addition to disclosing the dollar amount of the deferred revenue release, we also included in there the dollar value of the balance of unreleased deferred revenue that will be released over time with future software updates.
Alex Potter:
Okay, great. And then maybe 1 additional question here on the incremental capacity in Nevada, the 4680s that you're planning. That's a lot of batteries obviously, and presumably, you won't be putting all of those in Tesla Semi. So I guess, two questions about that incremental capacity. First, is it correct to assume that all of those 4680s are going to be more or less fungible and usable in your entire range of products? And if the answer is yes, then if you had to guess, how do you think that 100 gigawatt-hours would be allocated between your various end markets?
Elon Musk:
I don't know, this is a bit too much guessing
Andrew Baglino:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
But -- yes, Yes. I mean, you're right. Not all of the 100 gigawatt-hours are going to go into the Semi trucks, that is correct. Let's say like -- I alluded to a number of future products. Those future products would use the 4680.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the next question comes from George from Canaccord Research.
George Gianarikas:
Hi, everyone. Thanks for taking my question. So you recently adjusted prices and that may have put many of your competitors in the back foot. In addition to that, capital markets have recently gotten a lot tougher. So with those factors in mind, I'm curious how you see the current competitive landscape changing over the next few years. And who do you see as your chief competitors five years from now?
Elon Musk:
Five years is a long time. As with the Tesla order part, AI team, until late last night and just we're just asking guys like, so who do we think is close to Tesla with -- a general solution for self-driving? And we still don't even know really who would even be a distant second. So, yes, it really seems like we're -- I mean, right now, I don't think you could see a second place with a telescope, at least we can't. So, that wouldn't last forever. So, in five years, I don't know, probably somebody has figured it out. I don't think it's any of the car companies that we're aware of. But I'm just guessing that someone might be right out eventually, so yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I mean, beyond that, Elon, like in the vehicle space, even though the market is shrinking, we're growing and EVs have doubled almost year-over-year. So, like it ever keeps up with the trend of EVs is going to be our competitor. The Chinese are scary; we always say that. But like a lot of people always look at the EV market share, but we always look at it is how much of the total vehicle space do we have, and we're just going to keep growing in that space. There's 95% for us to go get.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And I don't want to say like -- I think we have a lot of respect for the car companies in China. They are the most competitive in the world, that is our experience and the Chinese market, it is the most competitive. They work the hardest and they work the smartest, that's so for the China car companies that we're competing against. And so we would guess, there are probably some company out of China as the most likely to be second to Tesla. We are -- the Telsa China team is winning in China. And I think we actually are able to attract the best talent in China. So, hopefully, that continues. So, yes, so we're fired about the future and well, it's going to be great.
George Gianarikas:
Just as a follow-up, the Inflation Reduction Act has created huge tax incentives for commercial vehicles. You mentioned an incredibly interesting product pipeline. Are there maybe some plans to accelerate commercial vehicle form factors outside of the Tesla Semi to help accelerate EV adoption?
Elon Musk:
Well, I was basically saying that, yes, but I'm not going to give you details because this is -- nice try, nice try. Yes, of course, of course. So, we actually look at like, what is the limiting factor for new vehicles because if the -- for the longest time, we've been constrained on total cell lithium-ion production output. And so people said, like, why not bring this other car to market or that other car to market? Well, it doesn't really help if all you're doing is shuffling around the batteries from one car to another. In fact, it hurts because you add complexity, but you don't add incremental volume. So, it's sort of pointless, in fact, like counterproductive to add model complexity without solving the availability of lithium-ion batteries. So, as we get -- so we want new product introduction to match where the cells are available or that new product to use those cells without cannibalizing the cells of the other cars. That's the actual limiting factor for new models, not anything else really.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question. The next question comes from William Stein from Truist.
William Stein:
Great. Thanks for taking my question. You started to answer this earlier, but I'd like to ask this question about the AI elements of your business and ask if you could comment on progress around Dojo and Optimus and your anticipation for the likelihood, for example, for the company to disconnect the GPU cluster in favor of Dojo and to have some market achievement an Optimus?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, obviously, with -- just we're still at the early stages, there are big [indiscernible] in any predictions. It's like -- I think, easy to predict long-term, but hard to predict the time in between now and then. But it's -- we think Dojo will be competitive with the NVIDIA H1 at the end of this year and then hopefully surpass it next year. And the key there is -- I think what's the energy usage required for a given amount of -- if you're training a frame of video, how -- what's the energy cost required to do that training? And we think probably -- we said this already actually at AI Day, so it's not new information, but we do see potential for an order of magnitude improvement relative to GPU, what GPUs can do for Dojo, which is obviously very specialized for AI training. It's hyper-specialized for AI training. It's not -- wouldn't be great for other things, but it should be extremely good for AI training. So just like if you do an ASIC or something, it's going to be better than a CPU. This is sort of, in some ways, like a giant ASIC. And we're able to -- since we're operating one of the biggest GPU clusters in the world already, the -- we've got a good sense of how efficient the GPU clusters operate and what Dojo needs to do in order to be competitive. But we think that it does have a fundamental architectural advantage because it's designed not to be -- the GPU is trying to do many things for many people. We're trying to do graphics, video games. It's doing crypto mining. It's doing a lot of things. Dojo is just doing one thing and that is training. And we're also optimizing the low-level software too. So it had a various sort of, ground middle level so it's just insanely good at efficient training. And the intra-communication between the Dojo modules is extremely high. It's not going across an Ethernet cable. It's like -- so anyway, the -- we see a path to an order of magnitude improvement in the energy efficiency or per given unit of training. But we also have to achieve that. And so when will it be achieved? It's hard to say, but we do see a path to get there. And then also on inference, like once you've got something trained, well, if you want to have a product that's a consequence of that training, that product may not be anything to do with cars. Then the efficiency of inference is extremely important. And we also have, by far, the most efficient inference computer at the -- with the FSD computer in the car. This has potential for products that are in car even really in automotive.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And William, do you have a follow-up?
William Stein:
Yes. It sounds like the 1.8 million units you expect this year is supply, not demand limited supply, it sounds like by the lithium batteries. If you were to become demand limited, can you talk to us about your propensity to use price and your relatively high industry margins to grow units and share?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. To be clear, the 1.8 million is not cell supply limited. And I mean, we did address that number earlier in the call if you want to answer.
Elon Musk:
Yes. It's roughly -- cell supply is roughly matched with that. And this 1.8 million cars, if we get lucky, it could be more. And then the rest would go into stationary storage, the Powerwall and Megapack. So, yes, so true.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let's have the final question from Adam Jonas.
Adam Jonas:
Hi. Elon, first question is, is it time for Tesla to significantly expand the captive finco? I mean, you only have like $4.5 billion of receivables. It's basically nothing compared to other big auto companies. And then I have a follow-up.
Elon Musk:
Zach maybe is best to answer that.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I mean, the way that we've been using captive financing so far is to plug what we believe to be gaps in the market of existing third-party products. And so we have a couple of offerings in Europe. We do loans for our energy business, retail energy business here in the US. We do leasing and we do a small amount of U.S. loans that are very targeted. And so we're using captives to support market caps, as I mentioned. So basically, it's a vehicle to support vehicle sales, make sure customers have access. I do think there's opportunity here to continue to grow this. We are growing it slowly here. It is a consumer of cash, so we're being cautious on how we do that. But the plumbing is in place to do a lot more here. And I think we'll have to see how things unfold over the course of the year and make decisions real time as to how much we ramp it up versus ramp it back.
Elon Musk:
I think if we see a severe recession this year, which like I said, hopefully, we don't, in severe recessions, cash is king big time, because it's in such short supply. So we want to be cautious about using cash for loans and that sort of thing for cars. I feel we're in a very strong position to get through a recession, because we really don't have any debt. And we've got over $20 billion of cash, which is great. The cash is earning a ridiculous return, a good return. So it's like nontrivial. And the interest rate actually in the $20 billion is earning like quite a good amount. And I've made this point on Twitter a few times. I'm sure a lot of people on this call understand the fact -- the basic value of a security is a function of the risk-free rate or we'll see how risk-free it really is but the T-bill rate. So if you've got -- I think the -- I recall correctly, the S&P 500 has a long-term rate of return of roughly 6%. And so I think that needs to be very cautious about having Fed rates that potentially exceeds 6%. Like, if we see deflation, and I think we are seeing deflation then you would add the deflation number to the 'risk-free rate' from the Fed. And as that starts to exceed 6%, now you're starting to exceed the long-term return of the S&P 500 and starts to become questionable as to why don't just put your money in a savings account essentially instead of in the S&P 500, if the S&P 500 is variable and the bank interest rate is not? This is -- so basically, the Fed is the risk of crushing the value of all equities, which is quite a serious, danger.
Adam Jonas:
Thanks Elon. And just a follow-up, I don't want to steal thunder from March 1st and in Austin, but how close are we to that step change improvement in BoM cost where you could sell an EV for under $25,000 or $30,000 and actually generate a profit, that kind of real moving assembly line moment in manufacturing? Again, I don't want to steal the thunder but just if you wanted to kind of wrap-up with thoughts there that would be helpful. Thanks Elon.
Elon Musk:
I mean, I'd love to answer -- I'll probably be asking the same question, but we would be jumping the gun on future announcements.
Martin Viecha:
Fantastic. Thank you very much, everyone, for all your good questions. And we will see you again in three months' time.
Elon Musk:
Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Bye-bye.
Martin Viecha:
Good afternoon, everyone and welcome to Tesla’s Third Quarter 2022 Q&A Webcast. My name is Martin Viecha, VP of Investor Relations and I am joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q3 results were announced at about 3:00 p.m. Central Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During the call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the Q&A session portion of today’s call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please use the raise hand button to join the question queue. But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you, Martin. So just to do a Q3 recap. Q3 was another record quarter on many levels. We had our industry-leading operating margin reach 17%. And our free cash flow surpassed $3 billion in Q3 and approached $9 billion in the past 12 months. As our factories ramp, we’re looking forward to a record-breaking Q4. So it really, knock on wood, looks like we’ll have an epic end of year. So, Q4 is looking extremely good. On the production ramp, Giga Berlin achieved another milestone of 2,000 cars made in a week with very good quality and is ramping rapidly. Giga Austin or Giga Texas should reach this milestone very soon. And in fact, just yesterday, we extrapolated yesterday’s build rate, it would be 2,000. Our production of 4680 cells has tripled in Q3 compared to the previous quarter. We are finally gaining rapid traction on the 4680 cell. And its output is growing rapidly, and we expect it to start incorporating in cars and having it be a significant portion of our production here in Texas in the coming months. We also have our second generation of manufacturing equipment for 4680 cells in Texas, which continues to show great progress along with our original pilot line in Fremont. The Fremont factory team once again reached record production in Q3. And we intend to keep raising production in Fremont. Regarding Autopilot, at the end of September, we hosted our second AI Day and drove the first prototype of our Optimus robot, released updates on our training computer and high range improvements of full self-driving software. Our vehicles have now driven nearly 60 miles in full self-driving Beta mode, and this number continues to grow exponentially. Our goal with that AI Day was to [post] (ph) recruiting, and we’ve seen a massive influx of world-class artificial intelligence engineer and scientist resume. So, it generated a tremendous amount of interest from some of the best AI researchers in the world. I can’t emphasize the importance of this enough because I think finally it has become clear to the smartest AI technologists in the world that Tesla is among the very best. So, this quarter, we expect to go to a wide release of full self-driving Beta in North America. So, anyone who has ordered a full self-driving Beta -- full self-driving, will have access to the FSD Beta program this year, probably about a month from now. So -- and then obviously, any new -- anyone who buys a car and purchases a full self-driving option, will immediately have that available to them. So, the safety that we’re seeing when the car is in FSD mode is actually significantly greater than the safety we’re seeing when it is not, which is a key threshold for going to a wide Beta. Let’s see, with respect to demand. We’ve got a lot of questions about demand in recent weeks. I can’t emphasize enough, we have excellent demand for Q4, and we expect to sell every car that we make for as far into future as we can see. So, the factories are running at full speed, and we’re delivering every car we make and keeping operating margins strong. We are still a very small percentage of the total vehicles on the road. Of the 2 billion cars and trucks on the road, we only have about 3.5 million. So, we’ve got a long way to go to even reach 1% of the global fleet. Let’s see. Based on many -- what people -- based on many things, but certainly questions I get on Twitter about buybacks. And I think every one of our Board members has gotten questions about buybacks. We’ve debated the buyback idea extensively at the Board level. The Board generally thinks that it makes sense to do a buyback. But we want to work through the right process to do a buyback, but it’s certainly possible for us to do a buyback on the order of $5 billion to $10 billion, even in the downside scenario next year, even -- given if next year is a very difficult year, we still have the ability to do a $5 billion to $10 billion buyback. This is obviously pending Board review and approval. So, it’s likely that we’ll do some meaningful buyback. So, in conclusion, while the market themes revolve around the short term, it’s very important to focus on the long term. I can’t emphasize this enough with investors and I think long-time investors, obviously recognize it with Tesla. You have your sort of local ups and downs, but long-term trend has been extremely good. And several years ago, I said, I think on an earnings call, and I thought it was possible for Tesla to be worth more than Apple, which was then the highest market cap company, I think, in the market. And Apple at that time, I think it was around $700 billion. And I said it required incredible execution, at least some luck, and we did indeed achieve that. Tesla went, in fact, or passed Apple’s market cap at the time. And now, I’m of the opinion that we can far exceed Apple’s current market cap. In fact, I see a potential path for Tesla to be worth more than Apple and Saudi Aramco combined. So, now that doesn’t mean it will happen or that will be easy. In fact, I think it will be very difficult. It will require a lot of work, some very creative new products, manage expansion and always the luck. But for the first time, I am seeing -- I see a way for Tesla to be -- let’s say, roughly twice the value of Saudi Aramco. And I think that’s -- I haven’t quite seen that yet. I mean, this is the first time I’ve seen that potential. So, we have an incredible product portfolio. I think we’ve got the most exciting product portfolio of any company on earth, some of which you’ve heard about, some of which you haven’t. We’re in the final lap for Cybertruck. We’re building a Cybertruck line here at Giga Texas [Indiscernible] and making a lot of progress in the robotaxi platform design. And then, with respect to batteries, we’re moving as fast as possible to have -- to achieve 1,000 gigawatt hours a year of production capacity in the United States, vertically integrated, anode-cathode, [Indiscernible] refining, we’re moving at top speed to do that. So I think it’s an incredibly exciting future and really an unprecedented future. None of this would be possible without the incredible team that we have here at Tesla. So, I’d like to give a huge shout-out to all of our factory employees, engineers, executives and the whole Tesla team. You guys rock. You’re the ones making it happen. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And Zach has some opening remarks as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks, Martin. Just to continue on Elon’s theme, I just want to thank and congratulate the Tesla team for achieving record vehicle deliveries, production and storage deployments in the third quarter. On automotive profitability, our GAAP operating margin was 17.2% with automotive gross margin at 27.9%. Operating margin is one of our best yet, with improvements in operating leverage. However, Austin and Berlin ramp costs weighed on our margins, particularly if you compare it to Q1. Removing regulatory credits and Austin and Berlin, our operating margins would have been our strongest yet and auto gross margin would have been nearly 30%. Note that while small and growing, each car we build in Austin and Berlin is contributing positively to profitability. We also continue to experience margin headwinds associated with macroeconomic conditions, as we’ve discussed at length on prior calls. In particular, raw materials, logistics and foreign exchange was a big part of this past quarter. On energy profitability, we achieved our strongest gross profit yet for this business, driven primarily by record volumes of our Megapack and Powerwall products. Our free cash flows were also a record despite an increase in cars in transit at the end of the quarter, which has a negative impact on working capital. Specifically on cars in transit, as noted in our press release on October 2nd, we’ve started to experience limits on outbound logistics capacity which we didn’t anticipate. This issue is particularly present for ships from Shanghai to Europe and local trucking within certain parts of the U.S. and Europe. Our historical operating pattern of batch building by delivery region leads to extreme concentrations of outbound logistics needs in the final weeks of each quarter. Just to put this in perspective, roughly two-thirds of our Q3 deliveries occurred in September and one-third in the final two weeks. As a result, we’ve begun to smooth the regional builds throughout the quarter to reduce our peak needs for outbound logistics. We expect this to simplify our operations, reduce costs and improve the experience of our customers. As we look ahead, our plans show that we’re on track for the 50% annual growth in production this year, although we are tracking supply chain risks which are beyond our control. On the delivery side, we do expect to be just under 50% growth due to an increase in the cars in transit at the end of the year, as noted, just above. This means that, again, you should expect a gap between production and deliveries in Q4, and those cars in transit will be delivered shortly to their customers upon arrival to their destination in Q1. Austin and Berlin ramp costs will continue to weigh on margins, although we expect the impact to be less than what we saw in Q3. And as Elon mentioned, we are continuing to build as many cars as possible while also maintaining strong operating margins. Thank you.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And let’s go first to the shareholder questions. The first shareholder question is, given the stringent battery content and assembly requirements for consumer tax credit eligibility under the Inflation Reduction Act, can you speak to Tesla’s ability to meet those thresholds in each of 2023, 2024 and 2025 through your existing and planned supply chain?
Elon Musk:
Well, yes, I mean, I think just at a high level, I’d say, we do expect to fully meet the IRA’s requirements. Do you want to add?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. We view that passing of the Inflation Reduction Act as a significant boost towards accelerating automation, while also scaling the battery supply chain at large in the United States. We expect Treasury to publish detailed guidance by the end of the year. Until such time, it’s difficult to fully determine the eligibility criteria, but we believe Tesla is very well positioned to capture a significant share of that for solar storage and also electric vehicles.
Elon Musk:
Yes, like I said, we’re -- like I said earlier, we’re going to go basically pedal to the metal as fast as humanly possible to get to 1,000 gigawatt hours a year of production in the U.S. vertically integrated.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let’s go to the next question. The next question is, what updates can you offer on the backlog and the recent order intake trends, especially outside of the U.S. and especially in China?”
Elon Musk:
Well, it’s -- there’s definitely -- China is experiencing adverse of a recession of sorts, which is property market -- simply from a property market mostly. And Europe has recession of sorts driven by energy. The U.S. actually isn’t -- North America is in a pretty good health, although the Fed is raising interest rates more than they should, but I think they’ll eventually realize that and bring back down again. Demand is a little higher than it would otherwise be. But as I said earlier, we are extremely confident of the great Q4, and we anticipate continuing to grow our vehicle production, sales deliveries by -- on average 50% a year as far into the future as we can see.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Actually one caveat, I should say, growing production by 50% every year because deliveries -- we’re trying to smooth out the deliveries and not have this crazy delivery rate at the end of every quarter, so. In fact, we’re just fundamentally running out of -- there weren’t enough boats, there weren’t enough trains, there weren’t enough car carriers to actually support the wave because it got too big. So, whether we like it or not, we actually have to smooth out the delivery of cars intra-quarter because there aren’t just enough transportation objects to move them around.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, do you still expect 50% annualized growth for the foreseeable future? Is this also true specifically for the Chinese domestic market? Do you expect to need to cut vehicle prices or offer incentives in any market to sustain a demand, or has demand remained stable, or is it even rising? There are three questions there.
Elon Musk:
Well, like I said, we want to sort of focus on a high level on what we think is possible here. We -- to the best of our knowledge, we believe that Tesla will continue to grow deliveries and revenue production at a 50% or greater compound annual growth rate. It might occasionally be a year that is a little less, and then some years would be maybe a little more or a lot more. In some of our out-year planning, we see potential annual growth rates that are in excess of 50%.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, “Can you tell us more about the product future road map beyond new models and FSD, and especially for interior and powertrain of existing vehicle models?
Elon Musk:
Yes. We could, but who wants? Sorry, guys, we can’t like jumping on, on future product announcement.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Committed to continuing...
Elon Musk:
Yes, we obviously are -- yes. But we’ll also be committed to continuous growth. Yes. At Tesla, we’ve always been committed to continuous improvement. So, as friends might have asked me like, when should I buy a car, I’m like now because we just keep improving the cars.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
There’s always the latest Tesla.
Elon Musk:
Yes, there’s still latest Tesla. I don’t really -- yes, the -- every now and again, we do have some big technology upgrade, like Plaid. And by the way, I think the Plaid Model S and X are the best cars on earth. There’s nothing even close, in my opinion. Just try one. Epic.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, “We keep hearing of dire energy crisis in Germany this winter. What are Tesla’s plans to combat power cuts? And will there be any delays in ramp-up in production from Giga Berlin because of this?”
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, I can take that. I think two points on this question. The first is just that based upon everything that we know, we don’t see this as a large risk to the Company. Even if production did go down for a period of time, this is on near term, it doesn’t have any impact on the long term of the Company.
Elon Musk:
But we don’t -- we have no indication whatsoever that we will have to cut our production in Germany.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
No. And we put in place backup plans, and we’re working through the supply chain as well. Nearly all of our suppliers are prepared as well. So, we’ll see how this plays out, but it’s not something that we’re terribly worried about.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the next question is, “How is production planning going for the Cybertruck? What is the initial Phase 1 production target? When can we expect an update on pricing and final design?”
Unidentified Company Representative:
I mean, as Elon said earlier, we’d be -- facilities preparations here in Giga Texas for Cybertruck. We’re still on track to enter early production in the middle of next year. We started our data builds of all of the battery body in existing...
Elon Musk:
When should I drop my beta?
Unidentified Company Representative:
In a few weeks. That’s going well, and we continue ramping up through the end of next year and into 2023.
Elon Musk:
Great. Yes, the car is going to be sick and -- sick. That is going to be a hall of famer, next level. Sorry, it took longer than expected, but there were a few things that got in the way, like insane global supply chain shortages like FedEx, which are force majeures if everyone.
Martin Viecha:
Right. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Of course. There’s Tesla Semi, of course. So, we’ll be handing over our first production Tesla Semis to Pepsi on December 1st. I’ll be there in person. And we will begin ramping up production of the Tesla Semi, which is a max low, heavy -- heavy truck. That’s a Class A truck, Class A truck.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
No sacrifice to cargo capacity.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly, very important, no sacrifice to cargo capacity, 500-mile range. Just to be clear, 500 miles with the cargo. Yes, 500 miles with the cargo on level ground. Yes, sure. Not up. It’s excellent. But the point is, it’s a long-range truck and even with heavy cargo. And the number of times people tell, no, you can’t -- it’s impossible to make a long-range heavy-duty Class A truck. And then, I’ll ask, well, what are your assumptions about what hour kilogram and what hours per mile, and they look at me with a blank stare and then say hydrogen. I’m like, no, that’s not the answer, I was looking for numbers, literally. It’s not a number. It’s [indiscernible] table. You obviously don’t need hydrogen for heavy truck. And we’ll be ramping up Semi production through next year. As I think everyone knows at this point, it takes about a year to ramp up production. So, we expect to see significant -- we’re tentatively aiming for 50,000 units in 2024 for Tesla Semi in North America. And obviously, we’ll expand beyond North America. And these would sell -- I don’t want to say the exact prices, but they’re much more than a passenger vehicle. So, with a few thousand heavy trucks of this nature, it would be worth several Model Ys.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, what is the progress of the 4680 cell ramp? And what factors determine whether vehicles get 2170s versus 4680 cells? And how will that change in the next year?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, ramp is going well, as Elon said. Total output is up 3x quarter-over-quarter, and production is tracking to exceed 1,000 car cells per week this quarter, as we said last quarter. Our focus is now shifting from 100% ramp to cost and further expanding production capacity in North America, as Elon also mentioned. On the 2170 versus 4680, in our factories, we really attempt to minimize factory complexity and product changeover while still making sure we get enough new product into the field to learn how it is performing. And that sort of mix is going to shift as 4680 scales here and the overall factory ramp proceeds in Texas.
Elon Musk:
Right. Basically, production of 4680 ramp is growing exponentially. And yes, it’s going well. We’re just looking at this -- just going to be a major pack in the future.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
[Indiscernible]
Elon Musk:
Yes. And like I said, we’re -- our goal is to strive towards 1,000 gigawatt hours a year of annualized production in United States alone by Tesla, not including [indiscernible], will be on top of that.
Unidentified Company Representative:
We need to get 300 to 400 terawatt hours to accomplish our goal.
Elon Musk:
Yes, there’s roughly -- to transition to sustainable energy, our calculation for both stationary and vehicles is 300,000 to 400,000 gigawatt hours or 300 to 400 terawatt hours.
Unidentified Company Representative:
So when you’re like one tower assembling a lot, well, a lot of terawatt hours to go by.
Elon Musk:
Yes. On the cathode side -- we think it will probably be iron and most of the iron -- iron can scale to very, very high tonnage and then some nickel. The exact percentages are hard to figure out, but it’s -- probably be twice as much iron cathodes as they call, maybe more. And then there’s the manganese wildcard as well.
Unidentified Company Representative:
And on that note, we’re pursuing aggressively North American iron supplies. And how -- yes, we can talk more about that at a future date.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question was on the Semi truck, which we already addressed. So I’m going to skip to the next one. Can you talk about how Tesla could adjust if we were to enter a prolonged recession, including new product prioritization, investment flexibility, new factory versus factory expansion, service support infrastructure, productivity cost measures and demand stimulation alternatives?
Elon Musk:
Well, to be frank, we’re very pedal to the metal come rain or shine. So, we are not reducing our production in a meaningful way, recession or not recession.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
It’s the 1% point come in.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. So I think the public, at large, realizes that everyone’s moving towards electric vehicles and that it’s foolish to actually buy a new gasoline car at this point because the residual value of that gasoline car is going to be very low. So, I think we have to be in a very good spot. But I wouldn’t say it’s recession proof, but it’s certainly recession resilient because basically earth has -- people both have in large part made the decision to move away from gasoline cars to electric cars. And then, in transitioning a generation to sustainable, you need solar and wind with the stationary battery pack to buffer the power. So, you have 24/7 power because the wind doesn’t go -- travel time. So that also -- we actually see the energy storage business, stationary storage, growing more like 150% to 200% a year, faster than cars by a lot.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Just to add before you jump in, Martin. Just to echo Elon’s point, I mean, I think where our cash balance is, what our forecasted cash generation is, where our margins are as a company, I mean we can withstand quite a lot of downside before we would have to dig into our capital plans, Supercharger expansion, product lineup. So, the business has done quite well over the last handful of quarters. And this is a real opportunity, I think, for the Company to press forward, in most aggressive way, as Elon has mentioned.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And we try to model out like, let’s say, 2023 is a brutal recession year. Even then, we generate meaningful cash. Once you get out of that…
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much. And let’s go to the last investor question, which is the progression from Tesla’s first platform with S and X to the second platform with 3 and Y, led to a 50% reduction in cost of goods sold. When do you see Tesla’s third platform being released? And what level of cost of goods sold reduction could you achieve?
Elon Musk:
Well, we don’t want to talk exact dates, but this is a -- I mean, the primary focus of our new vehicle development team, obviously. At this point, we’ve done the engineering for Cybertrucks and for Semi. So, it’s obviously against what we’re working on, which is the next-generation vehicle, which will be probably about the cost of 3 and Y platform. It will be smaller, to be clear. But it will, I think, certainly become -- certainly exceed the production of all our other vehicles combined. I mean, obviously, we’re going to take everything we learned from S, X, 3, Y, Cybertruck and Semi and forward into that platform. But we -- as you’ve said to us many times, we’re on a 2-for-1 target. So, we’re trying to get to that 50% number again. It’s like, we’re going to take two. That’s exactly what [indiscernible] how we make two cars for the amount of effort that currently takes us to make one Model 3.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Effort costs.
Elon Musk:
Yes…
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Half the loss, half the past, half the factory floor space.
Elon Musk:
We’re twice the output. And we do believe this can be done. By the way, I should mention that -- when I said that probably now that I see a path in extremely -- very difficult path, incredible execution required, a massive amount of hard work and some luck to get to where Tesla is with as much as Apple and Saudi Aramco combined, I wasn’t including Optimus.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let’s go to analyst questions next. The first question comes from Adam Jonas from Morgan Stanley. Adam, go ahead and unmute.
Adam Jonas:
Great. Can you hear me?
Martin Viecha:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Adam Jonas:
So Elon, would you consider vertically integrating into mining? That’s my first question.
Elon Musk:
We’ll do whatever we have to. Whatever the limiting factor is, we’ll do. We do not personally constrain ourselves. We don’t particularly integrate just for the hell of particularly integrating. Like if there was a great supplier who’s better than us or we think actively is very good, or even where the economics of comparative advantage suggest that we should use that supplier, even if we could beat them, but we could use our resources to do something else that will be more productive, then we would in source in that case. But if we have to go mine, we will mine.
Adam Jonas:
Okay. Thanks, Elon. My follow-up is 1 terawatt hour of manufacturing in the United States, vertically integrated. I guess, my question is, what would need to change with U.S. permitting laws to allow that? Kind of what would be your message to this administration or next? And do you think you could do a terawatt hour? What’s the going price of that? Can you do that for under $100 billion in the States? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Well, I mean, I think the message to the government would be that there should be -- I should say, we’ve actually had conversations with a number of senior government leaders, White House, Congress and whatnot. And the suggestion that we have is that there should be an expedited permitting process for anything which is critical to a sustainable energy future. So, it doesn’t make sense to put like a coal mine and a sustainable energy battery like lithium mine in the same category. Coal does not in the future, lithium does. And by the way, you can extract lithium with almost no disturbance to the local environment. So, it’s not actually ugly, nasty mine situation. So, I would recommend expedited permitting would really be helpful. Basically, a fast track environmentally -- I think in sense fast track things that are important for the environment and humanity for sure. That seems logical. And the reception has been positive. So, we’ll see if something happens with that. I think probably on this earnings call, we’re not ready to go into financial details of the -- what it will take to get there. But what we are seeing is practical improvements as we redesign the whole supply chain and all of the elements that go into battery cell. We’re figuring out dramatic efficiencies. And I think we’ll -- net result which would be that the capital required to achieve that level of output will be much less than what people think.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let’s go to the next question from Colin Langan from Wells Fargo. Colin, go ahead and unmute.
Colin Langan:
Can you hear me now?
Martin Viecha:
Yes, we can hear you.
Colin Langan:
Okay. Sorry about that. Any update on full self-driving? I think you had said a couple of quarters ago, it would be available by the end of the year. Is that still possible? Is it -- would it still be like a Level 4 or Level 5 that you’re talking about? And are there any sort of regulatory hurdles you’d have to think about?
Elon Musk:
We -- as I said earlier, we’re expecting to release the full self-driving software to anyone who orders the package by the end of this year. So, a separate matter as to will it have regulatory approval. It won’t have regulatory approval at that time. But the car will be able to take you from your home to your work, your friend’s house, to the grocery store without you touching wheel. So, it’s looking very good.
Colin Langan:
And it would mean like Level 4, Level 5 kind of traditional definition you’re talking about?
Elon Musk:
Well, there’s - this debate is like what’s the -- what are the interventions per mile and maybe safety interventions per mile. Like we’re not saying that that’s quite ready to have no one behind the wheel. It’s just that you will almost never have to touch the control, vehicle controllers. So, like when I came to Giga Texas from Brent’s house, I never touched any of the controls already here. And then there is a longer process of like called the march of nines of like how many nines reliability do you need before you could really be comfortable saying that the car could drive with no one in it. And that’s some subjectivity as to how many nines you need. But I think we’ll be pretty close to having enough nines that you’re going to have no one in the car by the end of this year. And certainly, without a question, that’s whatever in my mind next year. I think we’ll also have an update next year to be able to show to regulators that the car is safer much so than the average human.
Colin Langan:
Got it. And just as a follow-up. You mentioned in the prior questions about IRA. I mean, it sounded like you thought you could get -- can you get all of it? I mean, because my interpretation is like the production credits, battery component credits for buyers seems very likely for you guys. Is the sourcing part of it possible? Because that seems like a pretty tough hurdle given how much has to be sourced from the U.S.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes. So, we have a cross-functional team that’s looking very closely. As you mentioned, the sourcing threshold increases by the year. So, we’re looking at all options and also getting some clarification from Treasury. That’s -- it’s important to say that’s only a fraction of the other credits. We do manufacture ourselves in the U.S. We manufacture the modules in the U.S. So, that’s a pretty thin. So yes, we feel confident that we’ll have a path as these incentives -- as the threshold sort of increases by the year.
Elon Musk:
Yes. We’ll meet those thresholds..
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question comes from Colin Rusch from Oppenheimer.
Colin Rusch:
The operating leverage has been pretty impressive here. And I’m curious about areas where you could invest in an incremental way, whether it’s on the R&D side or on the sales side to accelerate growth or cost reduction, or should we be thinking about this level of spend on a go-forward basis and some significant operating leverage as you scale up from here?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I mean, our operating leverage has improved quite a bit. It’s the lowest this quarter, I think, ever, and by a decent amount, OpEx as a percentage of revenue. I mean, our forecast is that it will keep reducing. I mean, I think the way to think about it is our total amount of operating expenses will slowly tick up as the company grows. It’s very hard to keep it flat with the rapid growth of the Company, but it’s growing much slower. So some amount of growth there, but the top line of the business is growing so quickly. So, I think there continues to be enormous opportunity to improve the overhead efficiency of the business, and we’re seeing it.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Look, we are in the -- at least for now, quite in a good position of -- we’re investing in everything we can think of to possibly invest in, and we’re still generating cash. So, I guess, it gets a pretty good place to be.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I mean, how many R&D programs are we running in parallel right now?
Elon Musk:
People don’t even know old R&D stuff for that. There are some of it, but a bunch of it.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I also don’t think cash is a good gauge of how much R&D you’re doing.
Elon Musk:
No. It isn’t because like it’s not like -- it’s not like engineers -- they’re not generic. So it’s just like if you could you spend $5 billion or $10 billion, that will like -- that your actual R&D -- useful product ship will be proportionate to that. It’s just not true. Engineers on -- coming off some assembly line like cookies or something.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Until we get optimistic.
Elon Musk:
Get optimistic. Don’t change things. What matters is where are the most brilliant people working? And Tesla remains the -- Tesla and SpaceX are two companies where the smartest engineers want to work.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I mean, like we don’t have to spend billions of dollars to invest in the future and invent the future. Engineers are also cost conscious. And we don’t just burn the money out the window when we’re trying to do R&D. I wouldn’t stop looking at like R&D as a cash investment for...
Elon Musk:
I think 1 nickel Tesla is frankly worth an infinite number of dollars. You could have like a -- almost same the number of credit shares and they would not be able to do work 1 nickel of Tesla we can do. You can’t make it up in volume.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. Let’s go to the next question from George at Canaccord.
George Gianarikas:
I think, at your Annual Shareholders’ event, where Elon mentioned that the prices of many of the materials used in your production have started to come off the boil. If that continues, does that give you an opportunity to adjust prices globally after several increases? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Well, we’re looking at the prices of -- prices closely. I mean, obviously, anyone can just Google what the price of -- future price of copper or steel is going to be. It’s just like one Google Search away. And everyone can see that the commodities on a go-forward basis are on a dropping a lot. But in electric vehicles, things like battery-grade lithium are still crazy expensive. So, we’ve got a mixture of things where prices are dropping and things where prices are increasing.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes. I would say quarter-over-quarter, steel -- aluminum has stopped anywhere between 17% to 20% at the same time on the battery side.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And cost of shipping has come down tremendously. Like last year, the cost of a container on the spot market from Shanghai got as high as $20,000. And now it’s $3,500, $3,600. It’s that kind of reality. We’re seeing deflation in a lot of commodities with a few exceptions as Elon mentioned on batteries.
Elon Musk:
There’s more deflation than inflation.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Definitely.
Elon Musk:
And again, this is publicly available information. Anyone could just Google it. And I think Cathie Wood at Ark Invest is making this point over and over again, to the Fed and the Fed is not listening because they’re looking at the rearview mirror instead of looking out the front windshield.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Just to add a little bit more context. So, commodity increases were the highest in Q3 that we’ve seen over the last two years. And so, when indexes change, it does take time before they fully reflect.
Elon Musk:
Yes. There’s latency.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. There’s latency.
Elon Musk:
That’s why I say that the Fed’s decisions make sense if you’re looking out through the rearview mirror, but not if you look out the windshield. And actually we’ve got front windshield.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. And so what -- at least of what we know so far, the peak on the commodity side in Q3 -- I say peak, hopefully, it stays the peak, hopefully, it starts to come down. There is a small amount of production that we’re seeing going into our Q4 cost structure from steel and aluminum primarily, but it’s less than 10% of the total increases we’ve seen so far. So we’re optimistic here based upon what we’re seeing on the indexes for some of our cost structure that this will start to come in over time. But I just want to set expectations that there’s not some windfall of cost reduction in this space coming in Q4, maybe some as we go into next year.
Elon Musk:
Yes. We’ll probably see some cost reduction in 2023. I’ll be surprised if we did not.
George Gianarikas:
And just as a follow-up, this is for Elon. With your pending acquisition of Twitter and your stakes in SpaceX and Neuralink and Tesla, how much would the combined companies benefit from operating under a single super structure, if at all, like a Google Alphabet?
Elon Musk:
It’s not clear to me what the overlap is. It’s not zero, but it’s -- I think we’re reaching. I’m not worried about it. I’m not an investor. I’m an engineer and a manufacturing person and a technologist. So, I actually work and design and develop products. That’s what I do. So, it’s not a -- we’re not going to have a portfolio sort of investments over it. So, I don’t know. I don’t see obvious sort of some -- get combined under an umbrella, at least right now. So, I am excited about the Twitter situation because obviously another part incredibly well. And I think it’s massive that this sort of languished for a long time, but has an incredible potential. Although, obviously, myself and the other investors are obviously overpaying for Twitter right now, the long-term potential for Twitter, in my view, is, in order of magnitude, greater than its current value.
Martin Viecha:
Let’s go to the next question from Pierre Ferragu from New Street Research.
Pierre Ferragu:
Can you hear me, guys?
Martin Viecha:
Yes, we can hear you now.
Pierre Ferragu:
Great. I’d love to have another update on 4680, Drew. So last time we talked about it, there were -- it was a question about like scaling up with manufacturing and there were still a few things to get right. Is it fair to say that now you are at scale, and it’s just a question of logistics to get bigger? So, that’s question number one. And then, question number two, on the kind of like innovation and cost reduction and efficiency improvements kind of path that you described at the battery day, where are we today? And how much time is it going to take to deliver all the potential you outlined then?
Unidentified Company Representative:
Well, I’ll take the second question first. At Battery Day, we showed a time line out to 2026 for all of the ideas we had proposed and had shared with everybody then.
Elon Musk:
Yes, I’d be surprised. I think we’ll do better than that.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes. I mean, but just that’s the rough -- just give to you all -- it’s on that order. It’s not like a month. It’s not six months. It’s years. And we are executing on all of those different ideas pretty aggressively in parallel with the OpEx that some people think isn’t enough, but we’re getting it done.
Elon Musk:
I mean, I’m turning down.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes, yes. We’re great talent, like we find someone awesome, we bring them into the company. And people shouldn’t believe we are turning people away.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, it’s a hot pond but we’re solving it. And I think -- we still feel confident that 4680 will be the most competitive battery cell in the world.
Unidentified Company Representative:
It’s the whole system around it, right? It’s not necessarily a specific form factor. It’s the attention to detail on how to bring costs out of the manufacturing process -- or remove processing steps.
Elon Musk:
And all the way down from the mine to the cell.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes, exactly.
Elon Musk:
Many steps along the way.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes. And for those who watched the YouTube videos, like our on-site cathode facilities coming together, I’m really excited about that, which is a part of the plan that we discussed on Battery Day.
Elon Musk:
Yes. We’re also building lithium refinery.
Unidentified Company Representative:
In Corpus Christi. So, we’re making -- putting our money where our mouths are and all the various efforts that we discussed on Battery Day. On the technical challenges and the ramp question, which is your first question of 4680, no ramp is ever easy even at the end when you’re 80% to the end, like it’s still very challenging to get to the end. And that sort of leaning out of yields, the final cycle time to achieve target. You mentioned logistics. It’s not something that we’re specifically focused on, I guess, but eventually could be a problem as we’re talking about hundreds of gigawatt hours at different sites across the United States. But I would never sit here and say we have no challenges remaining, but we’ve made a lot of progress reducing technical risk in many areas. Cycle times have dramatically improved. Yield has dramatically improved. And just walking the line here in Texas, like Martin was walking it yesterday, made some comments to me. You really see the acceleration around you. And we’ve made a ton of simplifications moving from the Fremont factory to Texas, and it’s coming to play in speed of ramp here. And of course, that’s on one line of many here in Texas. So it’s not like factory to factory. It’s a multiplication of both, simplicity and scale. So yes, we’re excited about where it’s headed.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And I think, once we are fully integrated, I think we still do see a path to hold roughly $70 a kilowatt hour cell -- $70 per kilowatt hour cell, before any incentive.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Before incentive.
Elon Musk:
Before incentive.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the next question comes from Toni Sacconaghi from Bernstein.
Toni Sacconaghi:
I just wanted to follow up on the 4680 cells and where we are seeing them deployed today. So, are those in the Semis that are being delivered on December 1st? Are we seeing them in Model Ys that are being produced out of Austin? And is -- do you anticipate 4680 being a gating factor for Cybertruck ramp later this year? And how do you balance the need for 4680 across Semi, Cybertruck and potentially Model Y in 2023? And I have a follow-up, please.
Elon Musk:
Okay. The Semi doesn’t use 4680s. Yes. We are making Model Ys. Some of the Model Ys coming out of Giga Texas are 4680. And I think, Drew, the car you drive around is 4680 Model Y?
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes. 10,000 miles.
Elon Musk:
10,000 miles. Pretty good.
Unidentified Company Representative:
No problems yet.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Structural pack.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Structural pack.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And yes, I mean -- and our output 4680 is growing exponentially. But it’s worth bearing in mind like there are entire highly competitive companies that are very smart that all they do is make battery cells. This is simply one segment of Tesla. So, it’s not a total...
Unidentified Company Representative:
No, there aren’t -- there are challenges still ahead that we have not yet surpassed. No doubt.
Elon Musk:
We don’t anticipate this being anything -- like Cybertruck or anything else.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you. And the last question comes from William Stein from Truist.
William Stein:
I guess, I’ll go at one that I asked last time, Elon, which is your expectation for the likelihood of commercial success in each of the three major AI endeavors. FSD, sort of as imagined without a driver, the training computer and, of course, Optimus.
Elon Musk:
We’ll achieve full self-driving full autonomy -- I look at that occurring is 100%. And I think we’ll -- we’re almost there. And then, of course, we’ve got to prove it to regulators and get the regulatory approvals, which is outside of our control. But anyone who’s driving full self-driving cars -- has full self-driving Beta in the car, you can see the rate of improvement. You can just experience for yourself that we are, in fact, getting there. In fact, we almost are there. And so, we’re probably -- achieving that 100%. The Optimus, probably of that being a successful product, I think, it’s also extremely high given enough time, 100%. Dojo, just maybe more of a question around Dojo, like can we be competitive with NVIDIA GPUs even as NVIDIA continues to rapidly evolve their GPUs. So the jury is out on Dojo. Dojo team, they can outperform NVIDIA for Neuralink training. The jury’s out. We will probably know -- I don’t know, next year, if that’s true or not. But we think we’ll probably -- we think it’s -- this is -- the architecture of Dojo is the right architecture to win. Yes. It depends on how well we execute in that architecture.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. I think, unfortunately, it’s all the time that we have today. So, thank you so much for your great questions, and look forward to talking to you in about three months from now. Thank you, and have a good day.
Elon Musk:
Thanks, everyone.
Martin Viecha:
Good afternoon, everyone and welcome to Tesla’s Second Quarter 2022 Q&A Webcast. My name is Martin Viecha, VP of Investor Relations; and I am joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q2 results were announced at about 3:00 p.m. Central Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today’s call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you, Martin. So, just as a Q2 recap, Q2 was a unique quarter for Tesla due to a prolonged shutdown of our Shanghai factory. But in spite of all these challenges, it was one of the strongest quarters in our history. Most importantly, in June, we achieved production records in both Fremont and Shanghai. And as a result, we have the potential for a record-breaking second half of the year. I do want to emphasize this was obviously subject to force majeure, things outside of our control. The past few years have been quite a few force majeures and it’s been kind of supply chain hell for several years. Credit to our awesome Tesla supply chain team for overcoming entirely difficult challenges and huge thanks to the Tesla Shanghai factory team who sacrificed a lot to get the factory back up and running in June and achieve a record output. So, also making good progress with production ramp with Berlin. We achieved an important milestone of 1,000 cars a week in June. And we are expecting – sorry, our Giga Texas to exceed the 1,000 vehicle per week milestone, hopefully in the next few months. To be clear, we are currently making the cars with the 2170 cells and Drew Baglino will address some of the 4680 questions later in this call. But it is worth emphasizing that we have enough 2170 cells to satisfy all vehicle production for the remainder of the year. So we are not dependent on 4680. 4680 will be important next year but it is not important for this year. That said we have installed the second generation of manufacturing equipment for 4680 cells in Texas. And even at our established factories like Fremont and Shanghai, we continue to expand capacity. Regarding Autopilot, we have now deployed our FSD beta with City Streets driving capability to over 100,000 owners. They are very happy with the capability of the system and we will continue to improve it every week. We have now driven over 35 million miles with FSD beta. That’s more autonomous miles than any company we are aware of, I think probably more than – it might be more than any – all other companies combined. So – and that mileage is growing exponentially. With regard to manufacturing and technology, about 5 or 6 years ago, we said we wanted to become the best manufacturer in the world and that is somewhat counterintuitively, to some people, will actually be, I think, our strongest competitive advantage. We are super pro-manufacturing here at Tesla. And in general, we want to encourage other companies to be super pro-manufacturing. And in general, I think it is a very important thing to do. We need to make stuff and make it efficiently and that’s manufacturing. So we’ve made a lot of advancements in manufacturing processes. As we now show in the shareholder deck, thanks to our – the large castings, we make the world’s largest castings. We reduced body welding robot count by 70% per unit of capacity in Austin and Berlin. So that’s, call it, roughly a body shop that is roughly 3x smaller than would normally be the case. And I should say it’s also lighter, cheaper and has superior noise vibration harshness. So, it’s good on every level. But this journey is not over. We will bring another level of simplicity and manufacturing improvements with Cybertruck and future products that we are not quite ready to talk about now, but I think will be very exciting to unveil in the future. Our safety team also introduced a feature that tension seat builds, if the vision system detects imminent collision, which has never been done before. So, you can imagine that if you have a seatbelt that only tensions upon impact you have very little time to tension the seatbelt. If you have got to be – the car has got to be crunching to trigger the seatbelt tensioner, but because we have vision, we can actually see that a collision is about to occur with 100% probability before it actually happens. And so we can tension the seatbelts and we can even adjust the airbag deployment, because we can see, not just feel. This is a fundamental safety advantage that Teslas are now able to offer. And there is also an over-the-air update, so this is something that will be in place in all cars that have at least AP3 hardware. In conclusion, we exited Q2 with a strong production rate than ever before. Our team continues to focus on Cybertruck production readiness and some future platform design. We are expecting to be – still expecting to be in production with the Cybertruck in the middle of next year. And we are very, very excited about that product. I think it might actually be our best product ever. Let’s see. And FSD beta is on track to be released for all of North American customers before the end of this year. And hopefully, if we get regulatory approval, we will also be releasing it hopefully in Europe and some other parts of the world. We are hosting our AI Day in a few months. I think people will be amazed at what we are able to show off in AI Day. So basically, there is a tremendous amount to look forward to in the second half of this year. And I want to thank all of our employees and suppliers for their super hard work during these challenging times. Super appreciate it. Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And Zach has some opening remarks as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks, Martin. I want to start by congratulating the Tesla team on an excellent execution during the second quarter. Although our production volume reduced sequentially due to COVID-related shutdowns in Shanghai, we made substantial progress in nearly every area of the business, and in particular, our global vehicle production rate as we exited the quarter. Our Fremont factory, supported by our Reno team, reached new production records. The Shanghai factory resumed full production and our new factories in Austin and Berlin are progressing well through their initial ramps. Additionally, our energy business achieved record gross profit with the highest solar volumes in many years. I want to personally thank the entire Tesla team, as I know many of you are listening. You have embodied a remarkable and relentless pursuit of excellence in support of our mission. I also want to thank our suppliers for their support during another complicated quarter. On GAAP automotive gross margin, it declined sequentially to 27.9%. The temporary decline in Shanghai production volume meaningfully impacted margin, including idle capacity and factory restart costs and also had implications on the mix of regional deliveries. Additionally, as discussed on previous calls, we are working through the ramp inefficiencies of our new factories, which are progressing well, but have had an impact on margin as those factories come online. While we continue to see a benefit from higher pricing flowing through, which experienced some foreign exchange-related headwinds, our cost structure continues to experience cost increases from inflation, commodities and logistics. The energy business progressed well in Q2, aided by alternate solar supply coming online and progress on unit economics. Our storage business remains component-constrained on both Powerwall and Megapack, which we hope will alleviate to some extent in the second half of the year. We are greatly appreciative of the patience and flexibility shown by our customers while we work through these challenges. Within operating expenses, Boston and Berlin-related startup costs have wound down as these factories have moved into production and their costs are now reflected in automotive COGS. Additionally, we converted a majority of our Bitcoin holdings to Fiat for a realized gain, offset by impairment charges on the remainder of our holdings, netting a $106 million cost to the P&L included within restructuring and other. We also incurred restructuring charges related to targeted staffing reductions.
Elon Musk:
Yes, actually, it should be mentioned that the reason we sold a bunch of our Bitcoin holdings was that we were uncertain as to when the COVID lockdowns in China would alleviate. So it was important for us to maximize our cash position, given the uncertainty of the COVID lockdowns in China. We are certainly open to increasing our Bitcoin holdings in future. So this should not be taken as some verdict on Bitcoin. It’s just that we were concerned about overall liquidity for the company given COVID shutdowns in China. And we have not sold any of our Dogecoin.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
We still have it.
Elon Musk:
We still have our Dogecoin.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Despite these challenges, we were still able to achieve one of our strongest operating margins at 14.6%. Our free cash flows were impacted by working capital related to the Shanghai factory shutdown. However, we expect this will show as a benefit in Q3 as our working capital-related cash flows restabilize. As we look ahead and as Elon mentioned, we are positioned for a record-breaking second half of the year. We are quite excited about this. A couple of things to keep in mind as we progress, Austin and Berlin ramp inefficiencies will continue to weigh on our margins for the balance of the year. However, the impact should reduce as we increase ramp. Second, as we’ve mentioned before, we expect to continue to see recognized global pricing to increase as our backlog flows through. However, macroeconomic-related cost increases will also continue to be part of our story. And finally, despite losing more builds in Q3 than expected, we are still pushing to reach 50% growth this year. This target has become more difficult, but it remains possible with strong execution and as Elon mentioned, no more force majeure events for the balance of the year.
Elon Musk:
Yes, a lot of force majeure in the last several years, that’s for sure.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Thank you.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And now let’s go to the questions from investors. And the first question is, Chinese EV manufacturers seem to be doing a better job than their Western competitors, excluding Tesla, at innovating in software and design. How can Tesla make sure the company is staying ahead of those manufacturers, both within China and outside of China?
Elon Musk:
Well, the – right now, the best Chinese EV manufacturer is Tesla [train] (ph). We are actually doing the best, thanks to our incredible team in China. But I have a lot of respect for the Chinese, our manufacturers and EV manufacturers in particular. I think they will be a force to be reckoned with worldwide. They are very – they are smart and they are hardworking. And I think anyone who is not – any company that’s not as competitive as them will obviously suffer a market share decline. So obviously, we have a lot of respect for the current companies in China and then their capabilities, yes.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is when will Tesla have a unified vector space for both static and moving object network? Will this be a v11 or later version? If the latter, can you explain what makes it a difficult problem in layman terms?
Elon Musk:
Okay. This answer will be understood by 0.0 -- 01% of the audience, I think. I suppose you wanted to know what a unified vector space would actually mean. It essentially would be if you can take – if instead of netting together static and dynamic objects in C++, if they could be net together at the neural net level, then you don’t need to reconcile them within C++ heuristics. That is an architecturally better way to – that’s the most desirable outcome. It’s – I think it’s probably not necessary to achieve full self-driving, but it would be a slight improvement in the efficiency of the self-driving. And it’s certainly something we want to get to. Yes. The sort of nirvana situation is you have surround video/audio labeling of all static and dynamic objects. And you have then surround video inference with spatial memory as well. Then that’s – I mean, I think we are almost certainly there before the end of the year. Yes, I am not sure how many of you would understand that. I should say also, we are also confident of improving the frame rate as we delete some of the legacy neural nets. We think we might be able to get a frame rate of the – of 8 [Indiscernible] cameras maybe up to 36 FPS, which is actually a lot of frames, considering it’s 8 cameras. It’s certainly comfortably above 24 frames, which is basically the movie – frame rate of movies.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is Elon recently tweeted about lowering prices once inflation cools down. Can you elaborate on what do you mean by cooling down and how aggressively the company will lower prices? More broadly, how do you think about the auto pricing long-term?
Elon Musk:
Yes. So since we have – there is a quite a long wait when somebody orders in a car, in some cases, 6 months; in some cases, it could be up to a year. We have to anticipate what the probable inflation rate is over that period of time. So that’s what we are trying to do. When we – when or if we see indications that the inflation rate is declining, then we would not need to increase our car prices. It’s possible that there could be a slight decrease in car prices, but this is fundamentally dependent on macroeconomic inflation. It’s not something we control. If I were to guess and I would take this with a grain of salt, I think inflation will decline towards the end of this year. We are certainly seeing prices of commodities trending lower. Yes, but take it with a grain of salt. This is – making economic prognostication is fraught with error. I don’t know if you guys want to – do you want to say anything about...
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. We are certainly seeing, I mean, it’s kind of a whole spectrum. On the battery metal side, for example, the price of lithium has really shot up. We used to be $11 a kilogram to more than $80 a kilogram, but it’s not every situation is that bad so it’s kind of a spectrum.
Lars Moravy:
Carbon steel, aluminum, [indiscernible] carbon steel and aluminum has started trending down. We will see the benefits of it only probably later part of this year or early next year.
Elon Musk:
Yes. But I think that’s just like for most commodities, we are seeing a downward trend towards the end of this year or next year. Some commodities, the pricing of lithium is insane. I would like to once again urge entrepreneurs to enter the lithium refining business. The mining is relatively easy. The refining is much harder. So, the lithium is actually a very common – sort of very – like lithium pretty much everywhere. But you have to refine the lithium into battery-grade lithium carbonate and lithium hydroxide, which has to be extremely high purity. So, it is basically like minting money right now. There is like software margins in lithium processing right now. So, I would really like to encourage, once again, entrepreneurs to enter the lithium refining business. You can’t lose. It’s licensed to print money.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is you made the right economic call before most on inflation when you diversified into Bitcoin. It has since shown it’s not much of a hedge in the real world test in the last few months. How do you think about it as an asset over long-term and what do you need to see to change your view?
Elon Musk:
Well, Tesla is – Tesla’s goal is to accelerate the advent of sustainable energy. We are not really – cryptocurrency is a sideshow to the sideshow. So, it’s – we are not a – cryptocurrency is not something we think about a lot. We think a lot about scaling production and accelerating the advent of sustainable energy, which the record heat waves around earth, so to emphasize the urgency of that transition. So that is what we are trying to do is make electric vehicles and solar and stationary storage battery packs. But the three pillars of a sustainable energy future, which is like solar and wind for energy generation, stationary battery packs for storage of the solar energy because of its intermittency and then electric vehicles, the third pillar. And if those three things are solved, we have a sustainable future for civilization. And the fundamental good of Tesla and the reason we’re doing this, so certainly, my primary motivation here is to have the day of sustainable energy comes sooner. That’s our goal. We’re neither here nor there on cryptocurrency.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question on 4680, Elon noted that 4680 plus structural pack is not yet optimized. Can you please share the general path of 4680 in structural packs in terms of cost efficiencies when compared to the traditional 2170 pack? Will cost improvements be mostly due to scale or do we need to solve some technical issues?
Andrew Baglino:
Yes, do you want to do the architecture?
Elon Musk:
Yes. So structural pack where we get dual use of the battery cells as structure and as energy storage in the same way that an aircraft gets dual use of the wing as a fuel tank and as a wing is, I think, unequivocally, from a physics standpoint, the superior architecture. It’s the A architecture. Now because it is new, we will start off getting, I don’t know, aspirationally a C within an A architecture. But the potential is there for to get radically better and then unequivocally better than a battery pack, which is carried like a sack of potatoes, so…
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. And we’ve gained the perspective through putting our first structural pack in production that it is actually the A architecture. Like before we did that, it was a hypothesis that was backed with – I got a lot of modeling and first principles analysis. And now we’ve actually built and are more confident in that assertion.
Elon Musk:
Yes. So exactly. So the structural pack, even the C and the A architecture is beating the non-structural pack. And so over time, it will, with further refinement, be substantially superior to that is carrying a battery pack as though it is cargo. And this is like – it’s very much very analogous to the early days of aviation where fuel tanks were initially carried like cargo until they realized actually, you should get dual use of a fuel tank as a wing and as fuel tank. And that makes the planes lighter and better. And the same is true of electric vehicles.
Martin Viecha:
And on cost improvements, are they due to scale or about solving technical issues?
Elon Musk:
Yes. Yes. I mean really, the two things that improve costs are economies of scale and tech and core technology.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I think technical issue is not the right.
Elon Musk:
Technical issues like…
Andrew Baglino:
Getting to the optimal design, right? Like you always start with some access. Some people might call it that, but that’s not really what you think it is initially. It’s that you don’t know how you can get it until you’ve done it a couple of times.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean there’s some platonic ideal of the perfect product where the atoms – you have exactly the right atoms and they are in exactly the right position, and you asymptotically approach this platonic ideal. And – but it takes a lot of effort over time to figure out actually what is the platonic ideal and then actually gradually approach that.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I mean, you might need to create a new alloy, then you need to figure out how to cast it, then you need to ramp the casting machine with the new alloy, as an example…
Elon Musk:
We did.
Lars Moravy:
We have done it for rudders. We’ve done it for like castings. So, like yes, it does take time.
Andrew Baglino:
Constant improvement is something we are used to here, and it’s something like we’ve done with their vehicles and our design since the beginning. I mean, even we’re talking a couple of weeks ago, like the first version of the front casting that we made that went into the early vehicles is like...
Elon Musk:
I mean Model S stage.
Andrew Baglino:
No, I am talking about like our first Model Ys. Since we have ordered more dies because bringing more dies for more production, we’ve saved like 4 or 5 kilos of mass just doing die iteration. And that’s something we do at Tesla like quite regularly and we will continue to do. So we’re not happy with a C, like maybe we are at a C+ now because I think we got to keep going to the tag of B-.
Elon Musk:
On the rear casting. But this will transfer for improvement with the casting. So the casting is already way better than the rare body casting is already way better than the – on the way is done in the past where you’ve got 120 different parts that are welded together or bonded together with different alloys and then you have to put sealant in between all the various parts for water ingress and noise. So we’re already way better than that with current casting, but there’s still a lot of opportunities to reduce the master casting and also extend the casting to include more parts as well as adapt the rest of the vehicle for the fact that there’s a casting.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes, I was going to say the same thing, right? Like we are not just evaluating the pack and insulation either, it’s the pack plus the body, the integration, do we have mass in the right places, we have the cost in the right places and only just the right amount. And I think we’ve gone through one iteration. We’re going to do another one with Cybertruck. I mean, we’re taking the learnings and doing – the next version hopefully is a B-plus in A architecture. That’s certainly a target.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, how do you feel the progress of FSD is going? And does Andrej Karpathy is leaving have any significant impact on timelines or potential progress?
Elon Musk:
Well, since Andrej was writing all the code by himself, naturally, things have come to a grinding halt. It’s irony. So, Andrej is also [indiscernible] of Chris, my respect for Andrej. He has decided to – I think he wants to contribute more to I think, core AI at an academic level and get back to coding individually. But we’ve got a team of about 120 people in our software AI group that are extremely talented. And I think we will have – I’m highly confident we will solve full self-driving and it still seems to be this year. I know people are like says that. But it does seem to be epic. It does seem as though we are converging on solving full self-driving this year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, how is the 4680 ramp going? And is Giga Texas producing cells yet?
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. So we are making progress on 4680. But right now, as Elon mentioned, we are leveraging supplier cells, which we have in sufficient quantity to ramp Texas and Berlin. We expect to ramp total 4680 production to exceed 1,000 per week by the end of the year, hopefully before – well before. In Q2, at Kato, we fully automated [indiscernible] for the drying of electrode tool there, unlocking major increases in production and improvements in yields. Since March because of that, Kato output has grown about 35% month-over-month each month since, and yields throughout the factory are already at targets in most areas and trending in that direction and a few others. We did feed learnings from Fremont cell and pack lines to Texas and Berlin there, a carbon copy. Cell design was revved to unlock higher performance and manufacturing simplicity. Manufacturing lines were further integrated and we in-sourced additional content. For these reasons, there are some new ramp challenges to overcome in Texas and Berlin. Specific to Texas last quarter, cell equipment was fully installed and commissioned and we produced our first commissioning car sets of cells through the end of the line. Our target for Texas is to begin production this quarter and aim for Texas to be capable of exceeding Kato weekly output before the end of this year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. The next question is on 4680 as well, but I think Drew has covered everything that was in the next question. So the following question is with regards to the ramp of production in Austin and Berlin. How is the situation with regards to supply of semiconductors, battery cells and other components? How about cost inflation impacting profitability of these other plants?
Andrew Baglino:
I can take that. So Tesla procures about 1,600 unique pieces of silicon from 43 semiconductor companies. So with a portfolio of that size, there are always challenges. Things are more stable on the latest generation chips. We still see some tightness in the older generation semiconductors, especially in the analog and mixed signal space. But we have line of sight to solve for the volumes being contemplated for both Austin and Berlin. And on the cell front, like Elon mentioned, we have a comfortable margin, thanks to record output from our partners and have line of sight that matches the planned output from both factories. We’ve grown cell production significantly on a 12-month rolling basis and have long-term contracts with all our partners for key battery metals. So we don’t see any major problems for the components, of course, barring unforeseen COVID-related shutdowns.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Just to add on the profitability part of the question. Q2 was our largest increase yet over the last handful of quarters on inflation and commodity-related increases to our cars. It’s fairly evenly spread across the factories, given common suppliers or common issues that impact the broad supply chain. So I think I had mentioned before that we have been seeing increases over the course of last year. It ticked up in Q1 and then it ticked up again at the rate of increase was more in Q2. So as we look through to the end of the year, what we’re seeing is we don’t think the inflation-related increases in Q3 will be as big as Q2. But as Elon had mentioned, there is uncertainty on pricing here. And we don’t have full exposure, as Karan had just mentioned, on every component of cost because we do have some contracts in place. But there are some spot buys as well and some contracts being renegotiated. So we’re managing it with pricing and in partnership with our suppliers but it does continue to be something that is impacting our financials.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And the last question is, when will the Cybertruck be officially available?
Elon Musk:
We’re hoping to start delivering them in the middle of next year.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much. And now let’s go to analyst questions. The first question comes from Pierre Ferragu from New Street Research. Pierre, feel free to unmute yourself.
Pierre Ferragu:
Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my question. I’d like to ask like a question on 4680 and the structural battery pack. And I’d love to understand where you stand on the technology and efficiency and energy density road map that you described at the Battery Day. So what I’m trying to understand is where do you stand on the architecture of the battery cell itself? How much silicon do you have in it? How much energy improvement have you achieved already so far? Sorry. And the reason why I’m asking – sorry.
Andrew Baglino:
Go ahead.
Pierre Ferragu:
And the reason why I’m asking that is because you have like very smart guys on Twitter who shared experience about trying to fully empty a Model Y from Texas from Austin and noticing behaviors and like recharging behavior that suggested that maybe these cars had like very, very high mileage, very high range, and were like artificially limited in range in software. So I’m just kind of trying to understand how much of an edge you’re building at the moment with the 4680 and the battery back on range.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. Let me just try to provide like a super straightforward answer, like as Elon mentioned before, our priority was really on simplicity and scale during the initial 4680 and structural battery ramp. So we weren’t like putting all the bells and whistles in from day 1 because if so, we would be sort of suffering under a string of serious miracles that we would need to achieve to get going. But as we attain the manufacturing goals that we’ve stated at the ramp that we need to hit next year, we are certainly planning to layer in new material technologies and higher-range structural packs, but like holding back goodies for some rainy day or something like that.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Maybe another way of putting it is that the – our focus right now is on the dozens of little issues that inhibit the production ramp of the 4680. Some of the more challenging ones have been feeding the anode-cathode material because we’re using this revolutionary dry electrode process. But when something is revolutionary, it’s a lot of unknowns that have to be resolved. So we’re confident of resolving those unknowns but it’s very difficult. It’s – yes, we’re making rapid progress on that point. So the first order of business is really get the basics right, get to high volume and high reliability and then very rapidly iterate within that to enhance the energy density and reduce the cost of the cell.
Andrew Baglino:
Totally agree, yes.
Pierre Ferragu:
Okay.
Elon Musk:
I’d say we are highly confident of a good outcome. It’s the exact counterpoint of that is perhaps is of some debate but the outcome is not.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. Specific to the dry process, we made a major advance this past quarter in Kato that the team is really excited about, and congrats to the team for achieving that.
Elon Musk:
But I should also emphasize that it is not as though Tesla intends to displace our suppliers of battery cells. The Tesla battery cell production is in addition to what our suppliers can do. And we want our suppliers to grow their battery output as fast as they possibly can, and that goes for the entire supply chain. The fundamental rate limiter for both transitioning to sustainable energy is how fast can you grow with the amount battery output per year? This is the fundamental rate limiter for transition to sustainability because you need the batteries for two of the pillars of sustainability, the stationary storage and for vehicles. So yes.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes, I just want to stress that a lot of these higher energy density technologies are not necessarily scalable. I mean, most of them are not scalable from what I’ve seen. And so like focusing on them is a distraction from the mission, like it really is how do we scale as fast as possible? And we’re taking these risks that we’ve discussed at Battery Day. And our plan is as we de-risk them and they are successful, we want to bring them back to our partners so that they can go faster, too, because that’s all on the mission, right, like how do we accelerate.
Elon Musk:
People often ask me, if you often ask me, is some breakthrough needed in battery technology for the world to transition to sustainability? The answer is no. Even if there was zero technology breakthroughs, so literally zero from where the technology is right now, we could fully transition Earth to sustainable energy. The issue is very much the rate at which the entire supply chain from mining to refining to cell production. How fast can that grow? It’s growing fast with the faster it grows, the faster we transition to a sustainable energy economy.
Pierre Ferragu:
This is actually a great exactly where my follow-up is. So Elon, you always mention this 50% per annum sustainable growth target that you guys have. And so my question here is when we see like the difficulty regarding the commodities, raw materials, swinging prices, I’m kind of wondering, as you are planning for this 50% per annum growth, if we stand today over the next 5 to 10 years, how much of that do you feel you’ve secured through your work at entering into long-term contracts and things like that? And you were calling for entrepreneurs to go into the lithium business. So does that mean you don’t have enough lithium secured to grow 50% per annum over multiple years? And what’s – how much of that is secured today? And how fast can you improve that basically?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think it’s very difficult to predict anything 10 years from now. I hope civilization is still around, frankly. I don’t count that as a win.
Pierre Ferragu:
Not that fun.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. Hopefully, we haven’t had World War 3 by then. Yes. So the – we do see constraints in refining of the materials necessary for lithium ion batteries. I do want to emphasize this as – it is not due to a scarcity of the raw material. In the case of lithium, lithium is one of the most common elements on earth. It’s pretty much everywhere. But refining of the lithium into ultra-high purity battery-grade lithium hydroxide, lithium carbonate is quite difficult and requires a massive amount of machinery and it’s a hard thing to scale. As it was also difficult to create the anode and cathode, I think – my guess is maybe two-thirds of batteries will be iron phosphate or maybe iron phosphate with some manganese. And there is plenty of – there is a ridiculous amount of iron with it. In fact earth is – a little better of trivia says, what is earth made of more than anything else, iron. Iron is the number one ingredient of earth by mass, number two is oxygen, which is wild. Yes. Basically rust. Actually, we are stuck together. We are a rust ball. That’s roughly – that’s almost two-thirds of earth, I think is rust. We are like a rusty ball bearing with a little bit of other stuff, so – but plenty of lithium. So anyway, there is not like a shortage of materials.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I mean but the other thing on the LFP thing is that it isn’t just that there is more access to material that way. The actual refining process is less capital intensive to make a good LFP cathode. And so there is – it’s not just scalable on the resource side, it’s scalable on the refining side.
Elon Musk:
Okay. Absolutely, to clear, there is no fundamental barrier here. It’s simply a rate question. Like at what rate can you scale production, and I think we are seeing a very rapid increase in battery production and in the whole supply chain. If you were to say today, what are concerns appears down the road, I would say one of the concerns is the machinery to refine the critical ingredients of lithium ion cells. So, the lithium itself and then the cathode, which I said like I said, will be mostly iron phosphate, actually some manganese. I think almost all stationary storage will be iron phosphate and then you really just need nickel chemistry for long-range vehicles and like aircraft and that kind of thing.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. The other thing I would say is – we are working with our suppliers to ramp their capability as quickly as possible. And it’s not like we have a problem in the next year or 2 years to – specifically to your question. But when we look 10 years out, yes, we need to do more to accelerate the growth. And that is why we are making our own investments, like we are building a facility here in Texas. This already is going up, you can see it in the flyovers. We are working on a lithium refining activity as well ourselves because the best way to learn how to accelerate something is to do it yourself. So, these are the things we are doing to move it all forward.
Elon Musk:
Yes. If our suppliers don’t solve these problems, then we will.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question comes from Emmanuel Rosner from Deutsche Bank. Emmanuel, go ahead and un-mute yourself.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Yes. Thank you so much. I have a question on your vehicle demand and then a quick follow-up on supply. First, on the demand side. Are you seeing any sort of pressure in the order book or the pace of new order or any sort of like slowdown as a result of the pressures that the consumer is experiencing? Are you worried about it in light of your view of the risks to the economy that I think you expressed, Elon?
Elon Musk:
Well, right now, our firm is very much production. So, we have long leads on – as anyone can tell, if they order our car, if you order Model Y, it will arrive sometime next year. So, this is clearly not an issue for many months for us. Our problem is overwhelmingly that of production. So, yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Okay. Maybe just two things to add. Specifically on your question, are we seeing a macroeconomic impact on our demand, not that I can tell. Maybe a little.
Elon Musk:
Some maybe.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
But it’s not material. The second thing to Elon’s point about backlogs, we have a very long runway with very long lead times here. I mean certainly, the world is uncertain and we will have to see where things go with commodity prices, how quickly we are ramping production, what the state of the road looks like at some point next year. But the demand is not something we spend really any time talking about.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think it’s – maybe just one thing worth mentioning the – that there is surface between value for money and fundamental affordability because sometimes people say, “Well, if you got all this demand, why don’t you just raise the price to some – double the price or something?” And this is usually expressed by somebody who is rich. But there is – even if you rail value for money to infinity, if somebody does a little bit, concerns do not have enough money to buy it, even a product where the desirability is rail to infinity, they basically cannot buy it. So, this is why you kind of just raise prices to some arbitrarily high level because you pass the affordability boundary and then the demand falls off a cliff. So, I do feel like we have raised our prices or we raise the price quite a few times. They are frankly at embarrassing levels. But we have also had a lot of supply chain and production trucks and as we have got crazy inflation. So, I am hopeful, this is not a promise or anything, but I am hopeful that at some point, we can reduce the prices a little bit.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Emmanuel, do you have a follow-up?
Emmanuel Rosner:
Yes. My follow-up was actually on the supply side. So, it was very encouraging to see that you are quantifying your current installed capacity at basically already in excess of 1.9 million units installed currently. How quickly do you think that you can fill that capacity?
Elon Musk:
Well, I mean we – I think we have got a good chance of exiting this year at 40,000 vehicles a week.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I mean our internal plans are to have the capacity utilized by the end of the year. It takes time to ramp there. It will be a challenge. There is a lot that needs to happen to get there, but that’s what we are working on.
Elon Musk:
Yes. We have had many 30,000-car weeks already, so I think a 40,000-car week is within reach by the end of this year.
Andrew Baglino:
Shanghai and Fremont, as we said last month for record production and they are really fire to better doing really well. But then also Berlin are coming on strong. Theoretically, they also had record quarters last quarter. And if we ramp them to the capacity shown in the deck by the end of this year, we will be at that rate.
Elon Musk:
There is always a lot of uncertainty like the production looks like ESCO [ph], and that intermediate part of ESCO, it’s very difficult to bridge that with high certainty. But the end part of the ESCO, you can say, I think you can have a lot more certainty. And so that’s why I am confident we will get to 5,000 cars a week at – in Austin and Berlin by the end of this year or early next year and probably but not certainly, 10,000 cars a week at both locations by the end of next year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question comes from Colin Rusch from Oppenheimer. Colin, go ahead please.
Colin Rusch:
Thanks so much, guys. Could you talk a little bit about the pricing strategy around FSD, and as you get closer to this full functionality rolling out and the increased cycle times, how you see that evolving through the balance of this year and into 2023?
Elon Musk:
Yes. We will increase the price of FSD sometime later this year. I think probably just before we go to quiet Beta or Beta is anyone who wants to use the Beta software with all the caveats associated with that can use it. Then it would make sense to increase the price of FSD. The value of FSD is, I think extremely high and not well understood by most people. It is basically currently ridiculously cheap, assuming FSD materializes, which is well.
Colin Rusch:
Great. And then sorry to belabor a little bit on battery materials side. But in terms of some of the suppliers and the contaminants, can you be a little bit more specific around some of the elements that you guys see in some of your supply chain that can prove troublesome yields for the 4680s, particularly around lithium and potential contaminants in either hydroxide, the carbonates that you guys end up seeing real issues with as you move into production?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I don’t really think we have anything to comment on, yes, the purity specs of lithium on this call right now, yes.
Elon Musk:
Yes. The contaminants from the 4680 are not a factor, which is not an issue.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. The next question comes from Toni Sacconaghi from Bernstein. Tony, go ahead please.
Toni Sacconaghi:
Yes. Thank you for taking my question. I have two as well. In response to the question around demand, I think Zach, you said maybe a little, and Elon, you said maybe some indication that you might see some pressure on demand. And I am wondering if that is really just speculation or whether there is any empirical data that you saw in the last month, whether it would be cancellations or order lead times that led you to make that comment. I think anecdotally, if you squint, the lead times have gotten a little lower over the last four months in both China and the U.S. That’s really the only visibility investors have. So, I am wondering if you could maybe elaborate on whether that’s really just you are sort of anticipating there could be some impact because of high prices or whether they are something anecdotally or quantitatively that you could point to, please?
Elon Musk:
No. I mean I think we have said this now for many years, I know has proven true. Tesla does not have a demand problem, we have a production problem. And we have almost always had it’s a very rare exception it’s always been a production problem. I think that will remain the case.
Toni Sacconaghi:
So, there is a denominator and a numerator and like, you increase production?
Elon Musk:
Yes, absolutely. As we increase production, more demand is needed obviously.
Andrew Baglino:
No, it’s more just like you can’t look at the backlog and state much about demand because we are doing a lot on the other side to change the production.
Elon Musk:
We are trying to make the backlog lower, not longer.
Andrew Baglino:
Building factories and building more…
Elon Musk:
We don’t want a long backlog. That’s annoying. It would be like go to a restaurant and you order a burger and you have to wait three hours and like, that’s annoying. You want to get your burger right away. Same with the car. So, we want that lead times to reduce.
Toni Sacconaghi:
Okay. Thank you. Now I was just trying to follow-up on the fact that you both said that maybe we are seeing demand be impacted a little bit, and that was the spirit of the question, maybe...
Elon Musk:
We don’t have like – like because we see daily orders from around the world for our cars, it’s actually – it is like a mood barometer of people’s confidence in the economy. But one can’t read too much into it because things can vary a great deal from one day to the next. Consumer sentiment is all over the map. So, it’s – manage price, frankly. But we have so much excess demand. That is really just not an issue for us. It might be an issue for some other companies but it is not an issue for us.
Toni Sacconaghi:
Okay. Thank you. Elon, I am just wondering, a question for you. Tesla has obviously changed dramatically in the last 3 years from near life or death to a company with consistent cash flow and industry-leading margins. I am wondering if you can comment on your personal role in the company and whether you see that changing in terms of your role, your commitment and time spent at the company over the next 3 years or 4 years. I think you said a few calls ago, you wouldn’t be on calls unless there is something unusual and you have been on every call since then. I am wondering how...
Elon Musk:
I do a lot of unusual things, let’s face it. Basically, if there is only good news, I won’t be on the call. But if you have like a tough situation like COVID shutdowns in China, then I think I will be on the call – relatively speaking, if there is bad news. And we have this good news, then I won’t be on the call. But I am committed to the long – I mean I will work at Tesla as long as I can usefully advance the cause of sustainability and autonomy.
Martin Viecha:
Fantastic. Thank you very much. The next question comes from William Stein. Please go ahead and un-mute yourself.
Unidentified Analyst:
Great. Thank you very much for taking my question. Elon, in the past, you have given some assessment as to the likelihood that you can achieve success in some of the more interesting AI-oriented efforts, not only FSD, but also Dojo and Optimus. Perhaps you can give an updated view on those.
Elon Musk:
Well, I don’t want to steal thunder from AI Day. So, I think we will have some exciting news on AI Day that I think will be further ahead than probably most people think. But I don’t want to – I would love to answer you, but I think we will leave that excitement for AI Day.
Unidentified Analyst:
Okay. And perhaps a follow-up if I can. We have heard a lot from others and certainly to some degree from you all about the shortages in semiconductors, in particular. We have seen some big, important customers of that type of product decide to sort of leverage the ecosystems that exist to make some of their own in those categories. I am wondering to what degree you are doing that. That’s outside of Dojo in terms of the – I guess on the inference side, you are certainly doing that in the car, but what about sort of the more mundane areas like microcontrollers and the like? Is there any internal effort to improve supply chain and maybe improve other performance aspects?
Elon Musk:
Well, there is what we have done, we have been working with our suppliers side. We don’t currently intend to make chips ourselves. We don’t think there will be a need to make chips, but we have been working closely with a number of suppliers. Actually just met with one of our key supplier CEOs right before this call. We had a great meeting. They are going to make major investments in some of the critical chips and components that we need in the car. And I would actually like to take a moment to thank our key suppliers once again for supporting us through difficult times. And they really went above and beyond to support us. So, to all our suppliers out there, thanks very much.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. And I guess just maybe we don’t talk about it very often, but we do have a lot of custom silicon in the vehicle already. Microcontrollers, yes, some, battery management, yes, some, power electronics, yes, some. So, we try to go after where there is actually a technical advantage. And in the future, I think we are going to look at where there is a supplier…
Elon Musk:
Even now where there are supply chain issues with our Tier 1s and Tier 2s, get into it with us on the engineering side when we find solutions, whether it’s alternative chips or changing the entire structure of this pack to make it work. And I think that’s an advantage we have that many other OEs just simply cannot. I think Tesla is as much a software company as it is a hardware company. And so one of the ways that we have been able to address supply chain issues on the chip front is by rewriting software to be able to use different chips, or in some cases, achieve dual use of a single chip, which is even better. And actually, quite frankly, the chip shortage has served as a forcing function for us to reduce the number of chips in the car. Yes, turns out we had more chips than we needed. But that’s a testament to our software team that we are able to roll a new chip into the car, write a whole new patch of software for that chip and – without interrupting production.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. And our goal is as we mature and scale the platforms to integrate more functionality into fewer chips, like that is the way that it’s gone with laptops and phones. It’s going that way in cars. And we are trying to do that wherever it makes sense to do it as quickly as we can.
Elon Musk:
From a supply chain standpoint, do we – what do you think about the chips and whatnot?
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I think – I mean from a high level, instead of designing and building our own microcontrollers, we are partnering with key partners that understand the architectural requirements and they will take the specs and design something for us. We have done that, to your point, Drew, on the battery sensing space. We have got some application-specific ICs. But yes, integrating, reducing the number of components, it makes supply chain easier, but it also makes the reliability of the end product better because there is less failure points. So, that’s always been the mantra.
Lars Moravy:
And at times, we have also got the wafer level and try to consume less to achieve the same functionality. So, that’s something also that we have been looking at in some of the constrained modules that we have faced in the last six months.
Unidentified Analyst:
Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Fantastic. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate all of your questions. Unfortunately, this is all the time we have this quarter, and we will speak to you again in three months’ time. Thank you very much, and goodbye.
Elon Musk:
Bye.
Martin Viecha:
Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Tesla’s First Quarter 2022 Q&A Webcast. My name is Martin Viecha, VP of Investor Relations, and I’m joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q1 results were announced at about 3 p.m. Central Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events and results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today’s call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please use the Raise Hand button to join the question queue. Before we jump into Q&A, Zach will have some opening remarks. Zach
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks, Martin. Just to start off here, Q1 was a challenging but extremely successful quarter for the Company. Despite numerous supply interruptions, including shuts at our Shanghai factory and nearby suppliers due to COVID, we’ve continued making progress and achieved our best-ever vehicle deliveries. Last quarter, we demonstrated a series of new financial records, including revenue, gross margins, operating margin and bottom line profitability. GAAP automotive gross margin reached 32.9% and first time exceeded 30% when excluding regulatory credits. Higher pricing continues to positively impact our financials as we make progress delivering cars and our growing backlog. Note that, for most vehicles, our delivery wait times are quite long. Thus, cars delivered in Q1 generally carried pricing set in prior quarters and at levels lower than cars being ordered today. Our per unit vehicle cost increased as well. Inflation, raw material prices, expedite and logistics costs continues to impact our cost structure. Factory shutdowns also occurred with little to no notice. Hence, we are unable to take action to plan those interruptions in a cost-efficient manner. Additionally, we saw a slight mix shift towards more profitable vehicles, including the Model Y. We also recognized a onetime benefit of $288 million from credit revenue relating to a regulatory change in the U.S. CAFE penalty, without of which credit revenue would have declined compared to the same period last year. The energy business has continued to be impacted by macro conditions, more severely than the vehicle business. Our storage products, our need of chip supply and new import processes have impacted supply of certain components for our solar systems, which is reflected in our solar volume for the quarter. OpEx as a percentage of revenue continues to reduce, driven by higher revenue, lower stock-based comp expense and other items. As a result of our ongoing improvements in operating leverage, we achieved a record operating margin of over 19%. Note that commissioning costs for our factories are in R&D as Berlin started production in late March and Austin in early April. These costs will be in automotive costs going forward, given these factories are now producing customer sellable cars. Our free cash flows have remained quite strong, yet were impacted by working capital related to lower-than-planned production. Additionally, we have reduced our debt, excluding product financing, to nearly zero. Looking ahead in the immediate term, a few things to keep in mind for Q2. First, we’ve lost about a month of build volume out of our factory in Shanghai due to COVID-related shutdowns. Production is resuming at limited levels, and we’re working to get back to full production as quickly as possible. This will impact total build and delivery volume in Q2. Second, as I’ve mentioned before, Austin and Berlin are just starting their ramps. And thus, those inefficiencies will start to flow through our gross margins in Q2. Third, we do have higher ASPs in our backlog, which will help to offset some of these headwinds. We continue to drive towards further strengthening of our financials in the second half of the year and believe our 50% or above growth rate remains achievable for the year. I want to conclude by thanking the Tesla team, our suppliers and our new customers for a great first quarter.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And Elon has some opening remarks as well.
Elon Musk:
Sure. Some of my remarks will be redundant with Zach’s, but it’s maybe worth repeating. Q1 was once again a record quarter on many levels, by reaching the highest deliveries, profit and an operating margin of 19%. This was despite a lot of chip shortages, many logistics challenges and an overall difficult quarter. So, I’d really like to congratulate the Tesla team on achieving record profitability and output despite many, many difficult headwinds, and especially the Tesla China team in our Shanghai factory. They really had significant challenges due to the COVID shutdown and nonetheless have been able to output a tremendous number of high-quality vehicles. And we are already back up and running with the Shanghai factory. So, as Zach said, we remain confident of a 50% growth in vehicle production in 2022 versus ‘21. I think, we actually have a reasonable shot at a 60% increase over last year. So, let’s see. Obviously, we ramped production, as you will know, with Giga Berlin and Giga Texas in the past few months. So, with two fantastic factories with great teams, and they are ramping rapidly. Now, with new factories, the initial ramp always looks small, but it grows exponentially. So, I have very high confidence in the teams of both factories. And we expect to ramp those initially slowly, but like I said, growing exponentially with them achieving high volume by the end of this year. So, we’re also working on a new vehicle that I alluded to at the Giga Texas opening, which is a dedicated robotaxi. That’s highly optimized for autonomy, meaning it would not have steering wheel or pedals. And there are a number of other innovations around it that I think are quite exciting. That is fundamentally optimized for -- trying to achieve the lowest fully considered cost per mile or cost per kilometer, accounting everything. And so, it’s, I think, going to be a very powerful product where we aspire to reach volume production of that in 2024. So, I think that really will be a massive driver of Tesla’s growth. And we remain on track to reach volume production of the Cybertruck next year. So, it’s basically -- once again, I’d like to thank the Tesla employees for their hard work, but also I’d like to thank our suppliers who’ve really gone the extra mile. They -- we have an amazing supplier group, and I want say heartfelt thanks to the suppliers that have really worked day and night to ensure that Tesla is able to keep the factories running. And we’re really at the early stage of that journey. We only crossed 1 million units in the past 12 months recently. And we are -- we aspire to head to 20 million units a year. So, we’re basically 5% along the way towards our goal. And we are growing very, very rapidly year-over-year. And we remain confident of exceeding 50% annual growth for the foreseeable future for basically several of the next years, I mean, so yes. And then, there’s, of course, Optimus, which I was surprised that people did not realize the magnitude of the Optimus robot program. The importance of Optimus will become apparent in coming years. Those who are insightful or listen carefully will understand that Optimus ultimately will be worth more than the car business, worth more than FSD. That’s my firm belief. So -- and then, of course, insurance is growing well. We expect to address the part shortages that limited our progress with batteries and solar. So, we expect batteries and solar to also grow well this year. And basically, the future is very exciting. I’ve never been more optimistic or excited about Tesla’s future than I am right now. Thank you.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let’s go to first investor question. And the first investor question is, Elon has historically provided FSD time lines with not optimal accuracy. We love his optimism for 2022 release, but is there any data Tesla can share with investors to help them make their own conclusions on progress being made? Interventions per mile driven, or any other data?
Elon Musk:
Sure. Well, with respect to full self-driving, of any technology development I’ve ever been involved in, I’ve never really seen more kind of false dawns or where it seems like we’re going to break through, but we don’t, as I’ve seen in full self-driving. And ultimately, what it comes down to is that to solve full self-driving, you actually have to solve real-world artificial intelligence, which is -- which nobody has solved. The whole road system is made for biological neural nets and eyes. And so, actually, when you think about it, in order to solve for full self-driving, we have to solve neural nets and cameras to a degree of capability that is on par with or really exceeds humans. And I think we will achieve that this year. The best way to reach your own assessment is to join the Tesla full self-driving beta program where we have over 100,000 people right now enrolled in that program, and we expect to broaden that significantly this year. So, that’s my recommendation, is join the full self-driving beta program and experience it for yourself and take note of the rate of improvement with every release. And we put out a new release roughly every two weeks. And you’ll see a little bit of two steps forward, one step back. But overall, the rate of improvement is incredibly quick. So, that’s my recommendation for reaching your own assessment is literally try it.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The second question is, how much of an impact will the production shutdown in Shanghai have in Q2? What is the time line for localizing the Model 3 in Europe, or will newer models be prioritized in Berlin?
Elon Musk:
Well, we did lose a lot of important days of production. And because there are sort of upstream supplier challenges where a lot of suppliers also have lost many days of production. But Tesla Shanghai -- Giga Shanghai is coming back with a vengeance. So, I think notwithstanding new issues that arise, I think we will see record output per week from Giga Shanghai this quarter, albeit we are missing a couple of weeks. So, that means the most likely vehicle production in Q2 will be similar to Q1, maybe slightly lower, but it’s also possible we may pull a rabbit out of the hat and be slightly higher. But it’s really, call it, roughly on par. But then, Q3 and Q4 will be substantially higher. So, it seems likely that we’ll be able to produce over 1.5 million cars this year is my -- that’s my best guess. And then, Model 3. It’s important for new factories to be focused on -- and have the least amount of complexity and variation, which is why Giga Berlin and Giga Texas are focused on the Model Y. It’s -- from the point in which you have a factory complete and you’re making a small number of units to the point where it’s producing high-quality vehicles in volume is sort of 9 to 12 months from start of production. So, now hopefully, we’re getting better at that ramp, so maybe it’s a little less. But to get to sort of the 5,000 a week level has typically taken us around 12 months from start of production.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, how much raw material exposure do you have, measured roughly in percentage of cost of goods sold for example, in a given quarter versus one to two years out, both direct and indirect? Separately, how do you think about price increases versus prioritizing higher mix vehicles going forward?
Elon Musk:
Actually, on the price increase front, I should mention that it may seem like maybe we’re being unreasonable about increasing the prices of our vehicles, given that we had record profitability this quarter, but the wait list for our vehicles is quite long. And some of the vehicles that people will order, the wait list extends into next year. So, our prices of vehicles ordered now are really anticipating supplier and logistics cost growth that we’re aware of and believe will happen over the next 6 to 12 months. So, that’s why we have the price increases today because the car ordered today will arrive, in some cases, a year from now. So, we have a very long wait list, and we’re obviously not demand-limited. We are production-limited by -- very much production-limited.
Martin Viecha:
Raw material exposure?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Just to add to what Elon is saying, there’s different ways to calculate raw material exposure. I think the simple way, we estimate we’re around 10% to 15% of our cost structure exposed to raw materials. And just to clarify a couple of things on that. So, we’ve been experiencing increases in cost in general, but also raw materials for a number of quarters now. That pace picked up in Q1, so last quarter. And what we’re seeing for Q2 is slightly higher than that as well. And as indices move, it doesn’t impact us immediately or directly. In some cases, we have contracts with suppliers. But then as those contracts expire, we have to renegotiate them so that there can be a lag. In some cases, our contracts do directly reflect movement in commodity prices or raw material prices. But the timing in which that Tesla pays for that has a lag associated with it as well based on the contract. And so, to Elon’s point, what we’re trying to do here, because it’s quite an unprecedented situation of raw material movement and all of these various lags and uncertainty around renegotiating contracts, is we’re trying to anticipate where things will go and make sure the pricing that we have put in place at the time that those raw material cost increases hit us that they align and that the company can remain financially healthy in various scenarios as we look out over the next four quarters.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. The next question is, why does Tesla continue to fight dealership laws on a state-by-state basis versus taking it federal? Separately, why isn’t Tesla using 800-volt architecture in its vehicles? What are the advantages or disadvantages?
Elon Musk:
So, from Tesla’s standpoint, obviously, we’d like to have federal legislation that allows direct sales in all states, but we have not seen willingness on the part of the Congress to enact such law that would override a variety of state laws. So unfortunately, we have to fight it on a state-by-state basis. And Drew, do you want to answer the 800-volt question?
Andrew Baglino:
Yes, sure. On the 800-volt thing, yes, so it’s really a case-by-case thing. For the smaller platform vehicles like 3 and Y, there’s some wins and losses with 800 volts, not everything is better. And so, we look at that platform, and we’re not like ignoring the reality that you can go to a higher voltage, but there’s nothing really encouraging us to do so on that platform. It’s really about mass and power. And as you look at bigger vehicles, there are some advantages on those bigger vehicles.
Elon Musk:
Let me just quantify that. Basically, our estimate is that going from 400 to 800 volts might save $100. It’s not really moving the needle.
Andrew Baglino:
And you’re changing many things. It’s charging infrastructure all the way through the entire vehicle system to get maybe $100.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. So I mean, in the U.S., you’ve got 110-volt household power -- or voltage. And then, in your most -- like sort of 220. But really, it doesn’t make that much of a difference, and appliances work pretty much as well in, say, Europe as they do in the U.S. So, there’s some -- the advantages are small and the cost is high. Like I said, it’s long-term, like years now, it makes sense probably to an 800-volt architecture probably, but it really needs a very big vehicle volume to pay for the cost of changing from 400 to 800 volts. And then, Drew, do you want to continue to with it?
Andrew Baglino:
I was just going to say that 100 volts is also kind of like a spreadsheet exercise, right?
Elon Musk:
$100.
Andrew Baglino:
Sorry. $100. It’s roughly like a spreadsheet exercise, like you have to get through the full program to the end to see that maybe it’s been whittled away to $50 or less. On bigger vehicles, where you’re talking about higher power on the charging side or higher power from the battery to the power electronics or you need more torque, so the current requirements go up, there’s a little bit more semiconductor and actual conductor savings of going to the higher voltage. And so, we do consider that for Semi and Cybertruck. But for the 3/Y platform where we’ve got everything running and the benefit is questionably small.
Elon Musk:
Yes. It’s basically zero for robotaxi.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. For robotaxi, yes, it doesn’t make sense.
Elon Musk:
No, no. Sorry, this...
Andrew Baglino:
Sounds good.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let’s go to the next question. Next question is, how are the current 4680s performing versus expectations set during the Battery Day in terms of expected range increase and dollars per kilowatt hour?
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. We’re working in all the areas we shared on Battery Day, and we have sort of consistent progress across all of those areas towards achieving the five-year cost trajectory goals for the cost within our control, but we do not control all the commodity costs. So, that’s an exception I needed to call out. Similar to Model 3, it will take us several years to get rate and yields to the point where everything that we’ve discussed is achieved. Our priority was on simplicity and scale during our initial 4680 and structural battery ramps. And as we attain our manufacturing goals, we will layer in new material technologies we are developing and higher-range structural pack provisions.
Elon Musk:
I think maybe, in a nutshell, I think it probably is fair to say that 4680 and structural pack will be competitive with the best alternatives later this year. And we think we’ll exceed the best alternatives next year.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I mean we have some good existing proofs, right? Like we’ve built the facility here in Texas, like we know how much we spent on capital equipment in the facility. And it’s more than 5x less than prior technology installations. So, we’re saving huge on CapEx, on utilities and personnel. We know what those loads are and how many people are needed to run what is basically in a highly automized factory. And we have massive reductions in both of those. So, like the cost model is well understood. It’s really about rate and yield, which will come in time, as Elon said, over the course of this year and next.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the next question is, how does Tesla plan to secure raw materials required to scale to extreme size?
Elon Musk:
Yes. So, this is something we think about quite a lot. It depends what extreme size means. But certainly looking at, like, say, the $5 million, $10 million, $20 million -- 5 million, 10 million, 20 million vehicle levels, you really have to analyze the sort of macroeconomic, just like what is the tonnage of lithium that you need, of nickel, of iron phosphate, of graphite separators, electrolytes. It looks like really you think of like just macro tonnage. And when we need to think about this for the world as a whole, because just -- we want to -- what are limiting factors for accelerating the advent of a sustainable energy future. And whatever the most limiting factors are, Tesla will take action on those limiting factors. So, right now, we think mining and refining lithium is -- appears to be a limiting factor, and it certainly is responsible for quite a bit of cost growth in the sales. It’s I think the single biggest cost growth item right now certainly on a percentage basis. Although just for those who don’t totally know this, the actual content of lithium in lithium ion cell is maybe around 2% or 3% of the cell, so.
Andrew Baglino:
5 kgs a car.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. 5 kg. It’s not -- it’s called lithium ion cell, but by far, like the most expensive and heaviest item in the cell is the cathode. So, that’s the nickel or the iron phosphate. So we’re looking carefully at all of the raw materials and trying to figure out how we can accelerate the total amount of raw materials needed to transition the world to sustainability. And I think we’ve got -- we don’t have enough time on this call to really go through all those details, but we are thinking about these things. And we think we’ll have some exciting announcements in the months to come.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. One thing I want to call out is like we’re also committed to recycling at all of our cell factories. We’re recycling 50 tons a week right now in Reno and ramping to 150 with all of that reclaimed material going directly back into our cathode supply chain. So, we’re looking at the beginning and end of life needs here.
Elon Musk:
And that’s true like since Reno, we built a Gigafactory and we started doing that with batteries. But as we build newer factories or vehicles, for example, Giga Texas here, where we are today, we said was all of its non-yielded or scrap aluminum from the stamping shop directly into the casting shop. We regrind any plastic figures out. And so, we’re really concerned about raw materials, not just like mining them and consuming them, but when we get them in the door, using all 100% of them.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. No, that’s a great point. So, we’re storing -- we’re installing sort of furnaces [ph] for probably for aluminum like sort for the Model Y that we’ve built here in Giga Texas has both a front and a rear body casting. So, we’re casting almost two-thirds of the body. It’s high pressure die cast aluminum. And so, we can take both, scrap from the casting machine and the gating that comes out and put that -- just really pass that back into the melting -- aluminum melting pot. And then, as Elon was saying, also take any stampings and any other aluminum scrap and also through that in the melting pot, matter of fact, we’ve also figured out that we can use wheels from practically any car. Yes, yes. So, we’re going to be recycling the casting aluminum wheels from legacy gasoline cars as well and throwing that in the melting pot for our aluminum cast body of Model Y. And also we’ll be moving to the sort of cast part rear body in all vehicles over time? Well, actually, maybe not S/X, but 3/Y.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. At what rate do you expect Berlin and Austin to ramp relative to Shanghai? Are you able to leverage learnings from Shanghai, or are the processes substantially different in the new factories?
Elon Musk:
Ramp production faster than Shanghai because we have learned a lot. And we’ve now gone through the -- we have basically veteran teams that obviously in the 3/Y ramp -- Y ramp especially in multiple locations. And we’re obviously sharing what we’ve learned. And so, we don’t want to get complacent or entitled, but this should be a faster ramp because we have learned more, and we have done a lot to simplify the production prices of Model Y that should lead us to a faster ramp within Texas and Berlin. Yes.
Andrew Baglino:
But we also had a structural casting, about 30% less robots, we expect to almost double the capacity for body, for example, reducing the number of robots, but doubling our capacity in a lot of areas.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Right. The body line for the structural pack is -- and if you got a structural pack and front and rear castings, the body shop size drops by over 60% relative to the standard way of making a car.
Andrew Baglino:
[Technical Difficulty] general assembly or everything else because, we have the structural battery, the floor is the battery. We put the seats on the battery and then we put that in the cars. So there’s actually 10% and 15% of our stations in GA because of the general assembly [Technical Difficulty]. So, really, like I think about this and the way we think about cars, if you’re waiting for the best Tesla, you’re going to be waiting forever. If you’re waiting for investment, you’re also going to be waiting forever because every new factory is better than the last one because we take all that learning and triple it…
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Yes Next question is at Cyber Rodeo, Elon mentioned that a futuristic driverless robotaxi vehicle is on the roadmap. When can we expect more details on the product offering to be unveiled? Is this something that people can own, or will this be only offered by Tesla as a service?
Elon Musk:
So, I think we want to hold up on -- we don’t want to jump the gun on an exciting product announcement too much. So, I think, we’ll aim to -- we do a product event for robotaxi next year and get into more detail, but we are aiming for volume production in 2024.
Martin Viecha:
All right. And maybe the last question from investors is, what is the current run rate of 4680 cell production at Fremont and at Giga Texas? What do you expect run rates of 4680 to be in Fremont and the Giga Texas or Berlin at the end of the year?
Elon Musk:
Well, Berlin is using the 2170 nonstructural pack. So, they’re not constrained by 4680. They will transition to 4680 hopefully later this year, but current billing production does not to require that. We also have, just as a risk mitigation, 2170 nonstructural pack capability in -- here at Giga Texas as well. But -- if things go according to plan, we will be in volume production with 4680 sometime perhaps towards the end of the third quarter and certainly in the fourth quarter. Is that accurate?
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. And the other thing I would add is like with the China COVID shutdown and the semiconductor bottlenecks we had through Q4 and hence a little bit in Q1, we have sizable cell inventory at the moment, and excess cells to support the 2022 volume targets you described. So, that gives us the ability to be pretty deliberate in the 4680 ramp where we can maximize learning step by step, take engineering downtime to upgrade key pieces of equipment and modify the structural pack design to improve reliability, all while achieving what you just said, so.
Elon Musk:
Yes. 4680 output is not a risk to achieving 1.5 million vehicles produced this year, but it would become a risk next year if we do not solve volume production by early 2023, but we’re highly confident of doing so.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let’s go to analyst questions now. The first question comes from Dan Levy from CSFB. Please go ahead and unmute yourself.
Dan Levy:
Hi. Good evening. Thank you for taking the questions. First, maybe you can just talk through or address what some of the drivers of cost improvement were in the quarter. Was it just further improvements within Shanghai or in Fremont? Anything around sort of ongoing kaizen that you’ve talked about in the past? Maybe you could just talk through what you benefited from in the first quarter.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Sure. I mean, at a high level, cars produced in Shanghai do carry a lower cost structure than cars produced in Fremont. And so, as our mix of cars shift towards Shanghai, the average cost is positively impacted by that. We’re also seeing some progress in manufacturing efficiencies in Fremont, particularly on the S and X side as volume increases improves there. Expedites has been a huge story for the company. Q4, we had massive amounts of expedites. Q1 was still quite large, but we did make progress on bringing that down some.
Elon Musk:
Special mention goes to the Fremont manufacturing team and our associates there because we’re achieving record output at Fremont.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. The Fremont team is doing a tremendous job. Really absolutely from the back [ph] quarters.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Andrew Baglino:
It’s hard to underweight. Like you should -- the expedite situation with the crazy logistics that occurred with COVID.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. And to Elon’s point, the Fremont team and also the Shanghai team has been extremely dynamic with the unpredictable nature of our part arrivals, and our supply chain team, in particular, production planning portion of supply chain. We often get very little notice when there’s part shortage is coming, and it’s kind of a scramble couple of days before that part is supposed to arrive to figure out how to get it here. And so, the amount of Herculean effort that goes in to produce a quarter like Q1 and even the quarters before that is absolutely immense.
Elon Musk:
There’s a saying in the military, it’s like amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about logistics when it comes to war.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. So, there were some inherent cost improvements, as I mentioned, but there’s also offsets that we’ve talked about previously on raw materials, commodities. Outbound logistics continues to remain a challenge despite a ton of efforts to increase capacity there and bring those costs down.
Dan Levy:
Second question, one of the initial goals of Model 3 way back when was to have an EV that was affordable for a wide portion of the market. And we know prices are much higher now just given the supply constraints. Prices are higher for all other automakers. We know that there’s inflation that you’re battling through, and some of that needs to be passed through the price of the vehicles. And you’re going to be supply-constrained for the foreseeable future. So, it’s one of the points. But given the goal long term of making EVs more widely available to the masses over time, how do you look at the progression of prices over time?
Elon Musk:
We absolutely want to make EVs as affordable as possible. It’s been very difficult with the -- I mean, I think, inflation is at like a 40 or 50-year high. And I think the official numbers actually understate the true magnitude of inflation, so. And that inflation appears to be likely to continue for at least the remainder of this year is what -- when we’re talking to suppliers, suppliers are under severe cost pressure. So, yes, and in some cases, we’re seeing suppliers request 20% to 30% cost increases for parts from last year to the end of this year. So, it’s -- there’s a lot of cost pressure there. That’s why we raised our prices because we -- when things are on -- with respect to inflation, you know it’s high, then -- and we’ve got orders that go out a year or more in some cases, then we have to anticipate those cost increases. But I think, especially with the robotaxi and autonomy, I think we will end up providing consumers with, by far, the lowest cost per mile of transport that they’ve ever experienced. Yes. I mean with robotaxi, like maybe 5 to 10 times cost per mile. It’s really quite substantial.
Andrew Baglino:
And therefore, accessible to everybody.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, looking at some of our projections, it would appear that a robotaxi ride will cost less than a bus ticket, a subsidized bus ticket or subsidized subway ticket.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let’s go to the next question from Rod Lache from Wolfe Research.
Rod Lache:
Hi, everybody. I’m trying to just parse out your comments about the inflation and constrained supply and battery feedstocks and the initiatives that you are working on internally to secure these materials. It sounds like you’re optimistic about Tesla’s ability to solve this for Tesla. Do you -- but do you see this as a constraint on EV adoption more broadly?
Elon Musk:
Yes, absolutely. But what’s sort of keeping our costs down, at least in the short term, is that we have long-term contracts with suppliers, but those long-term contracts will obviously run out and then the year we’ll start to see potentially significant cost increases. But the macro is sort of looking at the world as a whole and saying, okay, what does it take for earth to transition to sustainable energy faster? It’s fundamentally -- the fundamental limiting factor is the output of cell -- basically, cell output -- at what rate can lithium ion cells increase the gigawatt hours per year? That is the fundamental limiting factor. So, in order -- and that will move as fast as the slowest, least lucky element of the whole supply chain. Currently, we see that as being a challenge with lithium. And it’s not that -- to be clear, it’s not that there’s a shortage of lithium ore in the world. Lithium is present almost everywhere. It’s a very common element. However, you still need to take up the ore -- take up basically sludge or whatever the clay with the lithium and then you need to go through a whole series of refinement steps. And that’s a lot of industrial equipment that’s needed to refine lithium ore to lithium that can be used as lithium hydroxide or lithium carbonate in the battery cell. So, we think we’re going to need to help the industry on this front, but the -- I mean, the industry is very fast. And I certainly encourage entrepreneurs out there who are looking for opportunities to get into the lithium business. The lithium margins right now are practically software margins. I mean, if the -- I think it’s something -- I think there’s a -- I mean, -- correct me if I’m wrong, but I think we’re seeing cases where the spot lithium price is 10 times higher than the cost of extraction. So, like we’re talking 19% margins here. Can some -- can more people please get into the lithium business? It’s -- do you like minting money? Well, the lithium business is for you.
Rod Lache:
Interesting. So, I guess, we’ll stay tuned to see what happens from that. My second question is it’s impressive to see just a modest increase in cost per vehicle -- cost of goods sold per vehicle, given what we’ve seen in terms of commodities actually. And from here, you have a lot of savings opportunities with 4680 cells and the cell manufacturing changes, the anode chemistry, structural packs, giga castings. Are you suggesting that even those may not be sufficient to offset the inflation that you’re seeing and that you’re going to need additional pricing as well in addition to those specific initiatives that you’ve called out?
Elon Musk:
We hope we don’t need to increase the pricing further. The current pricing is anticipating what we think is the probable growth in costs. And if those growth -- if that growth in cost does not materialize, we actually may slightly reduce prices. So, should we currently anticipate making significant price increases. But obviously, we don’t control the macroeconomic environment. If governments keep printing vast amounts of money and if there’s -- if there are not significant increases in lithium extraction and refinement and other raw materials, such that everyone is competing for a limited amount of raw materials, then obviously, that will drive prices to high levels. So, if you have a crystal ball that can tell us what the future is going to be like, we’ll adjust accordingly. But, the current prices are what we -- the current prices are for a vehicle delivered in the future, like 6 to 12 months from now. So, this is our best guess.
Andrew Baglino:
But I think if you zoom out, right, like as you said, our mission is to accelerate the transition to sustainable energy. So, we are working with our existing suppliers and others to figure out how to grow all of these raw materials as quickly as possible to not slow down the transition.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Andrew Baglino:
And whether that means we have to get directly involved in some cases or not comes down to the counterparty and their willingness to expand at the rate we think they should be able to expand. And that’s similar to what we’ve done with everything else, like we built a Gigafactory in Reno because it needed to be done. And so, like we will do what needs to be done to not slow down the transition. And affordability is a goal because it’s unaffordable. It’s going to retard the growth of what is inherently a good thing that we can’t have that as an outcome.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question comes from Pierre Ferragu from New Street Research.
Pierre Ferragu:
Thanks. Can you hear me well?
Martin Viecha:
Yes.
Pierre Ferragu:
Great. I’d like to ask you some questions about free cash flow. Do you -- so first, maybe in the long run, if you look at your performance and your growth model and your growth ambitions, I did the math very quick. And I see you guys sitting on $400 billion or maybe $500 billion of cash at the end of the decade. And I was wondering if it’s something you have given some thoughts about.
Elon Musk:
If inflation keeps going crazy, $500 billion might be like $20 billion today. I don’t know. So, we’ll see what $500 billion buys you in a decade, but it might be a lot less. So, I don’t know if we’ll -- that seems like a lot of cash. I don’t know. We’ll try to do something useful with it. I mean, Zach, I don’t know -- I realize that’s problem, that’s for sure.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
The way we’ve been -- I think we have to take this one step at a time. And so, we have investments that are happening right now to get Austin and Berlin up and running. And then, as Elon mentioned, installing capacity for robotaxi production. And there are some decisions that, as Elon alluded to, just to share in the future about what the economic model looks like -- what the economic model looks like for robotaxi. And so, the way Elon and I have discussed this is [Technical Difficulty]
Elon Musk:
Maybe just everyone [Technical Difficulty]
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. So, our focus is to get to the point where robotaxis are on the road, Optimus is in use, get the economic model for that dialed in, and then evaluate the size of cash flows at that point and make decisions then as to what’s next.
Martin Viecha:
Pierre, do you have a follow-up question?
Pierre Ferragu:
[Technical Difficulty]
Martin Viecha:
All right. Let’s go to the next one. The next question comes from Trip Chowdhry from Global Equity Research.
Trip Chowdhry:
Thank you. Two questions I have. First is regarding the Cybertruck. And I was wondering like in terms of number of parts, how would Cybertruck compare with the traditional pickup truck in terms of number of parts? The second question I have is on Gigafactory Nevada, Sparks. Will we have any production of vehicles in that factory, or all the future production will happen in Giga Austin? Thank you.
Elon Musk:
I’m not sure if we’ve actually done a comparison of Cybertruck parts versus regular truck parts. I mean, Lars?
Lars Moravy:
Yes. I mean, if you want to go down the like -- it depends on what kind of part. We still have cells in [Technical Difficulty]
Elon Musk:
Mention count.
Lars Moravy:
If we don’t count that, like the simplicity of our structure is significant versus a traditional pickup truck or any other vehicle, like as we’ve talked about their gigacastings, we save hundreds of parts there.
Elon Musk:
I mean, the entire rear -- kind of half of the car is one cast.
Lars Moravy:
So, with the Cybertruck and the doors, for example, we have an exoskeleton design where the door is ready to take and it takes all the long-term impact. So, we really have -- like we don’t have the door reinforcements. We don’t have the [Technical Difficulty]. So, to your point, I haven’t counted them because I don’t often look back at old technologies to decide how well I’m doing. I check that once in a while. But in general, architecture is always moving to reduce complexity, reduce parts or reduce parts count. I would say, ignoring the battery cells, we are probably 20% to 30% less.
Elon Musk:
All right.
Martin Viecha:
Okay.
Elon Musk:
Do we expect to expand? Yes, we do expect to expand Giga Nevada. There’s a lot of room for expansion there, and we do expect to increase output from Nevada, but by far, the biggest increase in output will be from Giga Texas.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. The next question comes from Alex Potter from Piper Sandler. Alex, can you hear us?
Alex Potter:
Yes. Hi Martin, can you hear me?
Martin Viecha:
Yes.
Alex Potter:
Okay, great. So first question I had was the extent to which other plants outside of China are insulated from any further upstream supply bottlenecks that we may have in China. Obviously, if this COVID lockdown things gets out of hand, clearly, that’s going to continue impacting Shanghai. But is there a point at which it could actually also impact other facilities?
Elon Musk:
Yes. If it would continue, but there are some parts that are sourced in China that apply worldwide. And that would be -- that would impact production elsewhere. But all indications are that we are -- our Giga Shanghai is back in production at fairly high levels already and so are our suppliers. So, we don’t think this is going to be a big deal.
Alex Potter:
Okay. Thanks. Second question, obviously, the higher profitability that you guys have been able to experience over the last couple of quarters, a lot of that is reflecting sort of "real" improvement. Another part of it is because we’re no longer paying you, Elon, as much as we were. And so I’m wondering the extent to which you and the Board are in the process of contemplating another one of these long-term compensation packages, which in the past have seemed to work quite well. Thanks.
Elon Musk:
There are no discussions currently underway for incremental compensation for me.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question comes from Colin Langan from Wells Fargo.
Colin Langan:
Great. Do you guys hear me?
Martin Viecha:
Yes.
Colin Langan:
Perfect. Just to follow-up, sorry to keep going on the raw material issue on the battery side, but obviously, it seems pretty important. How quickly can raw material supply be built? Because my understanding is it takes many years to build that out. So, are we just sort of facing -- when do you think we see a lithium shortage or a nickel shortage? And is there even enough time to build that sort of mining capacity in place? And then related, how quickly can you switch to like LFP for the nickel issue?
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I mean, I’ll take the LFP question. Like, it says so in our letter, like half of our products were LFP last quarter, which shows how quickly we were able to respond to -- well, honestly, it wasn’t because of a raw material shortage, but just because it seemed like the right thing to do, we could change our cathode chemistry. And there’s more to be done on the cathode side. And we are actively pursuing it to give us substitution flexibility in response to market conditions between the other cathodes that are out there that can be competitive in our vehicles, which there are many options. So, we -- I guess, what I would say is, specifically on the cathode side, like flexibility is the way we’re going to achieve this. And not all of the materials that go into cathodes are actually, first of all, hard to secure like through mining or refining; and second of all, in many cases, are like very plentiful already, like huge scale. And if all of the batteries in the world use those cathodes, it’s less than a 1% increase in total annual output. So, that’s the cathode side. I think, Elon already spent a lot of time talking about lithium. It really depends on the resource. Some resources like just getting rocks out of the ground, expanding the amount of rock that you’re getting out of the ground is maybe a little bit of paperwork and some additional sort of blasting and trucking operations. The refining is maybe where there’s -- it’s a little bit more chunky to bring it on line, but also the refining doesn’t -- it’s not like an oil refinery. It’s a much smaller operation to refine lithium out of spodumene or for liquid, like a brine or a salt pond evaporation. So you’re talking about a time scale of 1 to 2 years. And it’s not like we haven’t been talking to all of the lithium suppliers out there for many years. They have a lot of projects already in the pipeline to come on line this year and next. Some of what’s going on in the lithium market this year doesn’t actually have truth to bear to the like fundamentals of supply and demand, which is also a little frustrating. But yes, if we look past this year or next year, into 2030 when we need to 15 to 20 terawatt hours of this stuff to get on the growth trajectory -- stay on the growth trajectory we’re on, we need everybody to do more in the lithium space than they currently are. I don’t know if that answers the question.
Colin Langan:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Fantastic. Thank you very much. So, let’s go to the last question from Mark Delaney from Goldman Sachs.
Mark Delaney:
Yes. Good afternoon. And thank you very much for taking the questions. I was hoping you could comment on your latest thoughts about potentially opening up the charging network in the U.S. to non-Tesla orders. I mean, certainly really important to have a good experience for Tesla owners in terms of wait times and charge installs. But Tesla is able to have enough capacity, it could be a really good way to bring other vehicle owners into the Tesla network, perhaps help Tesla to sustain its network benefits and maybe make more people likely to buy a Tesla vehicles in the future.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. As Elon has said and as we’ve publicly committed, yes, we do plan to provide third-party vehicle access in all over the world, not just in Europe, where our original pilot was. And we are working on solutions in North America, which is a little bit more problematic with our connector being different than others, but we are moving in that direction. I don’t know if you want to add.
Elon Musk:
Yes, I think that’s -- there’s nothing more to be said on that, but we’re -- yes, we want to do the right thing with respect to the whole system.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And we’re going faster on adding chargers. With the growth of the cars that we’re producing and then anticipating what you were discussing, overall charger capacity is really important. And so, the pace of our investment in supercharging has accelerated.
Elon Musk:
Absolutely.
Mark Delaney:
Okay. That’s helpful. And for my second question, could you share any more details on Tesla Insurance, in particular, as you roll it out in more states. Are there any metrics you can share on what take rates have been like? And how do profitability margins on the insurance offering compared to the corporate average? Thank you.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
So, we just launched Tesla Insurance for real-time insurance in Virginia, Colorado and Oregon earlier this week. Maybe one step that I’ll share. So, Texas is our longest-standing real-time insurance market. But based upon the information that we have, Tesla is the second largest insurer of Teslas in the State of Texas. And possibly by the end of this quarter, maybe early next quarter, we’ll be the largest insurer of Teslas. And so, the customer reception to this has been quite positive. And I was reading social media on Monday after we launched in the three new states, a lot of folks who are reporting their stories of saving quite substantial amounts of money relative to their previous insurance. And so, we’re quite encouraged by that. And we’re working as quickly as we can to get to 80% of customers having access to a Tesla Insurance product by the end of this year in the United States, at which point we’ll pivot our attention to expansion outside of the U.S. The other thing I’ll say on insurance is with these three new states, the model is different because we are now the underwriter, and we are also now holding the risk. And so, with those states, we are a fully vertically integrated provider of insurance from systems and financials. With respect to the financials of the program, it’s still very early. And so, as the program gets more scale, happy to share more information on that.
Elon Musk:
And ones I noticed that we are seeing that the -- having real-time feedback for driving habits is actually resulting in Tesla owners driving the cars in a safer way because they can see the -- they get real-time feedback on, okay, this is affecting my insurance rate or it isn’t. And so, when people see it -- they can see a real-time score, they realize, if I make the following changes in my driving habits, then I pay less in insurance, then they have a very -- like a real-time feedback loop for driving for safer driving and an incentive to do so. So, it is -- actually, what we’re seeing is it is causing people to drive their cars in a safer manner, which is also net good.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
It’s safer on average, what we see in the data, to Elon’s point, and premiums are lower. We see that in the take rate data, we have extremely high retention for customers who experience the product. And I think I’ve talked about this in the past, but this has become a real passion program for us for these benefits. It’s bigger than just the economics. We’re trying to do a good thing here for our customers, save people money and make the roads a little bit safer.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think it improves just overall macroeconomic efficiency. It’s also a feedback loop for Tesla because we see if there is crash, both large or small, like we sort of see exactly what that caused. And then we think about how can we change the design of the car or the software in order to minimize the probability of that accident. Most accidents are minor, but how do you have those accidents occur less frequently? And how do we make the repair associated with that accident super fast? Like, aspirationally, it would be like a same-day repair of a collision, which is night and day difference compared to sometimes having to wait for a month while insurance claims are settled and figured out -- because Tesla is also doing collision repair.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, the feedback loop is instant.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Right. So, I mean, we do claims management in-house. And so, we receive the notification that there’s an accident, we work to prepare the estimate. And we can, with the support of our customers, use our collision centers to do the repair. And so, it’s full end-to-end visibility. And all of that, to Elon’s, we can then identify areas of cost inefficiency, feed those back to our engineering teams or elsewhere, software teams, actually improve the product. This lowers the cost of insurance, improves reliability of the product. So, it’s a full circle.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And basically, the customer experience is just vastly better because if there’s an accident, there’s no argument. We’ll repair it immediately. And this is as compared to arguing with an insurance company and then a claims adjuster and then a collision repair center. And this can be a nightmare basically. So we’re trying to turn a nightmare into a dream with Tesla Insurance.
Martin Viecha:
Fantastic. Thank you very much. Unfortunately, that’s all the time we have for this quarter. So, thank you very much for all your great questions, and we’ll speak to you again in three months.
Elon Musk:
Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Tesla's Fourth Quarter 2021 Q&A Webcast. My name is Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations, and I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q4 results were announced at about 3:00 p.m. Central Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please use the Raise Hand button to join the question queue. But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thanks, Martin. So, just to recap 2021, it was a breakthrough year for Tesla and for electric vehicles in general. And while we battled, and everyone did, with supply chain challenges through the year, we managed to grow our volumes by nearly 90% last year. This level of growth didn't happen by coincidence. It was a result of ingenuity and hard work across multiple teams throughout the company. Additionally, we reached the highest operating margin in the industry in the last widely reported quarter at over 14% GAAP operating margin. Lastly, thanks to $5.5 billion of GAAP net income in 2021, our accumulated profitability since the inception of the Company became positive, which I think makes us a real company at this point. This is a critical milestone for the Company. So, after an exceptional year, we shift our focus to the future, Texas and Berlin. So, we've begun production at both Texas and Berlin, we started that last quarter. But that's not the most important thing. We focus more on when we get to volume production and when can we deliver cars to customers. But I think it is worth noting that we -- and as the internet has observed, we've been making quite a few cars in Texas and Berlin, so -- in Austin and Berlin. So, in Texas, we're building the Model Ys with the structural battery pack and the 4680 cells, and we’ll start delivering after final certification of the vehicle, which should be fairly soon. Capacity expansion will continue through maximizing output of each factory and building new factories and new locations in the future. Although we're not ready to announce any new locations on this call, but we will through 2022, look at new locations and probably be able to announce new locations towards the end of this year, I expect. In 2022, supply chain will continue to be the fundamental limiter of output across all factories. So, the chip shortage, while better than last year, is still an issue. And yes, so that's -- there are multiple supply chain challenges. And last year was difficult to predict and hopefully, this year will be smooth sailing, but I'm not sure what you do for an encore to 2021, 2020. Nonetheless, we do expect significant growth in 2022 over 2021, comfortably above 50% growth in 2022. Full Self-Driving. So, over time, we think Full Self-Driving will become the most important source of profitability for Tesla. It's -- actually, if you run the numbers on robotaxis, it's kind of nutty -- it's nutty good from a financial standpoint. And I think we are completely confident at this point that it will be achieved. And my personal guess is that we'll achieve Full Self-Driving this year, yes, with data safety level significantly greater than present. So, it's -- the cars in the fleet essentially becoming self-driving by a software update, I think, might end up being the biggest increase in asset value of any asset class in history. We shall see. It would also have a profound impact on improving safety and on accelerating the world towards sustainable energy through vastly better asset utilization. Let's see. So, on the product road map front, there's quite a lot to talk about. I'm not going to go through every sort of thing that we're working on because I think a lot of them deserve product launches of their own as opposed to a few minutes on an earnings call. So, I'll talk kind of at a high level -- yes, mostly at a high level. The fundamental focus of Tesla this year is scaling output. So, both last year and this year, if we were to introduce new vehicles, our total vehicle output would decrease. This is a very important point that I think people do not -- a lot of people do not understand. So, last year, we spent a lot of engineering and management resources solving supply chain issues
Andrew Baglino:
Yes, yes. Sure. So throughout 2021, we focused on growing cell supply alongside our in-house 4680 effort to provide us flexibility and insurance as we attempt to grow as fast as possible. As we sit today, sales from suppliers is actually -- it sort of exceeds our other factory-limiting constraints that you mentioned, Elon, in 2022 or to say differently, 4680 cells are not a constraint to our 2022 volume plans, based on the information we have. But we are making meaningful progress of the ramp curve in Kato. We're building 4680 structural packs every day, which are being assembled into vehicles in Texas. I was driving one yesterday and the day before. And we believe our first 4680 vehicles will be delivered this quarter. Our focus on the cell, the pack and the vehicles here is driving yield quality and cost to ensure we're ready for larger volumes this year as we ramp and next year. And the 4680 and pack tool installations here at Giga Austin are progressing well with some areas producing first parts. And the internet has also noticed that. Yes, I was touring the factory -- the cell factory here. I’m super pumped. It’s like a really exciting accomplishment for us to bring everything into one Austin factory here in Texas.
Elon Musk:
Absolutely. And just to repeat Drew's point, we are still -- we still expect to be part or primarily chip-limited this year. So, that's the thing that's actually the driver. And that chip limitation should alleviate next year. And then probably, we transition into a cell limitation battery, total gigawatt-hours of cell limitation, which is when the 4680 will become very important.
Andrew Baglino:
Agreed.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And now, Zach has some opening remarks as well.
Elon Musk:
Long opening remarks.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks, Martin. As Elon mentioned, 2021 was a financially transformative year for the Company. If we look across the full year '21 and compare that to 2020, our automotive gross margin, excluding credits, rose by over 600 basis points, enabled by work on cost reduction, utilization of our Shanghai factory for exports and accelerating demand. OpEx as a percentage of revenue reduced, despite the impact of onetime items and unique items, and operating income more than tripled, with operating margin reaching our guidance of mid-teens, and these margins are trending up. We also saw regulatory credits accounting for a relatively small portion of our 2021 profitability, which we expect to continue to reduce in materiality going forward. For Q4 specifically, automotive gross margin, excluding credits, increased to 29.2%, which is our highest yet. We do continue to see some impact of higher pricing on certain models and trims as was the case in prior quarters. But please keep in mind that due to backlogs, changes in pricing will generally impact our financials in future quarters. Supply chain challenges and port congestion resulted in a significant increase in our expedited costs in Q4. We also took reserves associated with warranty and recall costs. Operating expenses were meaningfully impacted by stock-based compensation from the final two tranches of the CEO stock grant becoming probable and payroll taxes associated with the exercise of the 2012 CEO options. The total impact of these payroll taxes, warranty and recall costs and excess expedites was just over $700 million in the quarter. Our free cash flows have remained strong, reaching record levels in Q4 of $2.8 billion, despite increased CapEx. In addition to using cash to grow the business as quickly as we can, we have been retiring legacy and high interest debt. Note that we plan to continue to utilize the ABS market for product-specific financing. As we look forward, and we expect 2022 to be another significant and exciting year for the Company. We continue to drive for vehicle volume growth at or above 50%, as Elon mentioned, and our plans show that this is actually achievable with just our Fremont and Shanghai factories. For quite some time now, these factories have been running below capacity due to macro challenges with supply and logistics. As Elon mentioned as well, from what we're seeing, the pace of growth in 2022 will again be determined by supply chain and logistics, which is quite difficult for us to forecast. Despite these constraints, it's important to begin the ramp of Austin and Berlin to ensure that we are prepared once limitations ease, enabling us to increase total output more quickly in the future. This will result in higher fixed and semi-variable costs in the near term, in addition to the usual inefficiencies as we ramp a new factory. We are also seeing inflation and rising commodity prices, which we expect to continue to put pressure on our costs. How this specifically impacts gross margins in the near term is uncertain, given a mix of both tailwinds and headwinds. However, we do expect to continue to see stronger operating margins as we grow our volumes and improve operating leverage. Over a longer-term horizon, we are quite optimistic about the expansion of margins, though. From the hardware side, we are aggressively driving manufacturing innovations and operational efficiency to reduce cost. And with the rapid development of FSD, software-based profits will ultimately become a strong addition to the profits generated by selling hardware. So congratulations to the Tesla team for a terrific 2021, and thank you to our suppliers who supported us. Looking forward to another great year.
Elon Musk:
I'd like to just second the thank you to suppliers. A lot of suppliers worked late nights, weekends, vacations around the world, and we're very grateful for that.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let's go to the Q&A from the investor side. The first question was on 4680 cells, which we already answered. So, let's go to the second question. How is the progress of the $25,000 compact car? Can you give an update?
Elon Musk:
Well, we're not currently working on a $25,000 car. At some point, we will, but we have enough on our plate right now, too much on our plate, frankly. So, at some point, there will be. I think that's sort of a question that -- it's sort of the wrong question. Really, it's really the thing that overwhelmingly matters is when is the car autonomous? I think, at the point in which it is autonomous, the cost of transport drops by, I don't know, a factor of 4 or 5.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question from investors is, since we're talking product road maps today, how do you view domestic cooling and heating in the context of accelerating the sustainable energy transition? And how might Tesla's HVAC and heat pump advances fit in?
Elon Musk:
You want to talk about that, Drew?
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I think from a mission perspective, it's very aligned. If you imagine replacing natural gas, water and space heaters with electric heat pumps, it offsets something equivalent to like 80% of what a solar plus Powerwall system would offset, so it's very impactful. And we have learned a lot about how to make capable and reliable heat pumps that work in all environmental conditions and are excited about the idea of working on that problem one day. We put it that way. It's definitely aligned with our mission to transition to sustainable -- accelerate the transition to sustainable energy.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think it really becomes quite a compelling solution to the consumer where you integrate the electric vehicles charging, solar, energy storage, hot water, HVAC in a very tight compact package that also looks good. It just doesn't exist.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I mean, the integration of those systems in a house are no different than the integration of those systems in a vehicle. The only difference is -- we do it all in the vehicle.
Elon Musk:
And then, it's so constrained on mass and volume and energy. It's like -- you get the house…
Andrew Baglino:
Kind of easy problem. But obviously, those systems are all just disparate and what we've been doing with Powerwall and charging solar is integrating them more and more. The next logical step is obviously HVAC and water and heating. So we will do that and we will integrate it probably better than anyone has. But as you said, we have a lot of stuff on our plate.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And system integration too, with like phone, everything and the car can -- like the house can just heat and cool things because those are coming home type of thing. It still needs to be like randomly that temperature when you're not there or...
Andrew Baglino:
When the cat moves.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. So just do sensible things and just work really, I think it would be just quite a game changer down the road. We've got a lot of fish frying on it. And so, it is a thing we will do but we're not committing to a time frame at this point.
Unidentified Company Representative:
And people should do it.
Elon Musk:
Yes, if somebody else wants to do it. Yes.
Unidentified Company Representative:
It's super beneficial for achieving the goal here.
Martin Viecha:
The next question is, would you consider splitting FSD packages into perpetual and term licenses with a higher tier for both options for commercial use? A perpetual license that could be attached to individual or business and not the vehicle itself.
Elon Musk:
Now, I mean, this sounds maybe too complicated. We're just going to be focused on like what sells for the fully considered lowest cost per mile, kilometer of driving. And these other -- so that's what matters like how do you maximize the efficiency of getting people from one place to another and then charge them in a sensible way.
Andrew Baglino:
Including the charging infrastructure. That's a big part of it.
Elon Musk:
Yes. So charging for money and charging for energy.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, is Dojo on track for summer 2022? And what challenges, if any, are you working through? Is Dojo necessary for FSD to operate better in cities like New York City? Or on a separate note, where should we expect the first implementation of Tesla Bots? In your factories?
Elon Musk:
Okay. There's a few questions on there. Like 6 questions. Yes, Dojo appears to be on track for doing something useful in the summer this year. I think the threshold that really matters is at which point when does it become more competitive than a GPU cluster for training? And obviously, the GPU cluster is getting better. So, it's a moving target. But that's the goal I've set for the team is the FSD team running our GPU supercluster needs to tell me that they want to use Dojo instead that. That's where -- that's the obvious sort of threshold. And I don't know when that will. I wouldn't say like success is 100% certain here. I think, we just generally want to overestimate meeting options to underestimate ourselves. But it does seem as though we might pass that threshold next year with Dojo if we execute well. Dojo is not needed for Full Self-Driving but it is a cost optimization on creating vast amounts of video data. Cost optimization also, a rate of improvement. So, if you can train models faster, have a shorter iteration interval, then you can make progress faster. So, not everything can be distributed to deep GPUs. There's some elements of serialization there, so. And then, if Dojo is competitive, then it does seem like the kind of thing where we would offer it to other companies that want to do neural net training. Those are very much a neural net training optimized system. But in theory, it should be better than a generalize computing platform or say, GPUs, which were not really intended for the pixel trader. [ph] It is not directly intended for optimizing training of neural networks. They just happen to work better than CPUs in most cases. So, Dojos like a giant ASIC optimized for neural net training, especially video, or video like things. But as -- like said, we're not saying, for sure, Dojo would succeed. We think it will. We would encourage those who think this is an interesting problem to join Tesla, and -- yes.
Martin Viecha:
And the first use of Tesla Bots, whether it's in the factory or elsewhere?
Elon Musk:
Yes. The first use of the Tesla Bots, Optimus, the Optimus name seems to be sticking at least internally, Optimus Subprime. Like if we can't find a use for it, then we shouldn't expect that others would. So, the first use of the Optimus robots would be, at Tesla, like moving parts around the factory or something like that.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. And the next question on insurance. When do you plan on having your insurance service rolled out in all the states? International rollout timing? In markets that have Tesla insurance, what kind of uptake rates are you seeing?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. We currently offer Tesla Insurance in 5 states in the U.S. Four of them are telematics, which is Texas, Illinois, Ohio and Arizona. And then California, which has a more standard insurance offering based upon regulations there.
Elon Musk:
It should be clear, like we are pushing very hard for California to change the rules to allow informatics, which basically means that you're as safe as you're driving is measured. So, I think the current California rules are contrary to the best interest of the consumers in California and should be changed.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. And that's evidenced by what we're seeing in Texas. We've been in this market now for about three months. And what we see in the data is the frequency of collision by folks who are -- who are given a feedback loop on how they are driving is quite a bit lower than the frequency of collision otherwise.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And we get direct feedback on whether driving is safe. And if they drive safe, their insurance cost is less, so they drive safer. It encourages Tesla Insurance with informatics and real-time feedback encourages safer driving and rewards it monetarily. It's great.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Exactly. And so, we see that so far in Texas. Take rates have been quite strong. We measure this on the conversion rate from when folks quote to see what their monthly rate would be at the starting point to what percentage of them purchase. So, we're very encouraged by the interest that we're seeing in Texas. And then we have enough history in Texas to see what does the loss ratios look like and how do the economics of the program work. And we're on the right track there as well. So, we're comfortable with what we've seen in Texas to move as quickly as the intent to scale this across the U.S. Specifically on the question about when we will be in all states, this is a slow process because of insurance being regulated at the state level. And so we have to go through each of those processes with each of the departments of insurance in each state. But our internal goal here by the end of the year is to be in enough locations that 80% of our customers within the U.S. could choose to sign up for Tesla Insurance if they wanted to. There's a lot of uncertainty around that based upon the regulatory processes, but that's our goal. And then, as we make more progress rolling out in the states and each incremental state becomes a little bit less effort than the prior, that's when we'll turn our attention to the Europe market. We might be able to do that by the end of the year, starting to get work on Europe by the end of the year. We'll have to see how we progress in the U.S.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Next question is, what is your expected max capacity from each of your current factories, Freemont, Shanghai, Berlin and Austin? And timing for new factory announcements?
Elon Musk:
I don't think we want to comment on -- like that's -- it's always possible to increase the output of any given factory, to say, what's the next capacity? Well, it's difficult to say what that next capacity is because you put a lot of evidence that you increase capacity quite a lot. I think, -- look at the big picture -- you initially always want to increase capacity at one factory because your logistics cost of transporting cars needs to be considered, especially as the cars become more affordable, you want to have factories that are not like thousands of miles away from the customers. So, even if you could increase output, it may not actually be the smart thing to do. So, in the U.S. with, for example, with Giga Texas, I mean, coming up, we would want to deliver, say, Model Ys that are going to the eastern two-thirds of the United States from this factory. The logistics costs are going to be much less. But we will continue to increase output in Fremont and in -- at Giga Nevada and Shanghai. And as I said at the beginning of the call, this -- 2022 is the year we will be looking at factory locations to see what makes the most sense, possibly with some announcement by the end of this year. Yes.
Martin Viecha:
And the next question is, what are the biggest obstacles for Cybertruck volume production besides battery shortage?
Elon Musk:
Batteries will probably not be the limiting factor in Cybertruck production. There's a lot of new technology in the Cybertruck that will take some time to work through. And then, there's a question of like, what's the average cost of Cybertruck and to what degree is that affordable? There's -- you can make something infinitely desirable. But if it's not affordable, that will constrain people's ability to buy it because they don't have the money. I worry more about like how do we the Cybertruck affordable despite having awesome technology. That's the thing that will really set the rate. Aspirationally, we'd like it to go, in terms of just a rough order of magnitude, we'd like Cybertruck to be at least on the order of [indiscernible] vehicles a year. But it will take us a moment to get to that level.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, how much of Tesla's margin improvement is from, number one, economies of scale; number two, production design -- production line design efficiencies; number three, reduced transportation costs from multiple plant locations; and number four, pricing versus cost inflation; or number five, other sources? And how much further could margins improve and why?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Basically -- yes, there's basically four major factors if we look over the last year to the margin improvement in the Company. And they're in no particular order here but these are the big ones. So, our mix of Model Y is increasing as we've ramped that to higher capacity in Fremont and also in Shanghai. And the reason that matters is the Model Y is a vehicle that carries a higher profit than the Model 3. And so that is helpful on our margins. And then, as we increase the volume on that program with labor efficiencies, fixed cost amortization, they improve and the costs go down as well. The second one here is localization in Shanghai has been a huge help for margins for the Company. And the obvious things around logistics and duties is a big part of it, but we've also -- that factory had a different line design, more efficient from the start, and we've been pushing the boundaries on the volume there. So, that has been helpful. If you recall at the beginning of the year, we also were in a transition to the new version of the Model S and Model X. And so, as that has ramped over the course of the year, that has been helpful. And then, we've also done various price increases in certain markets on certain models, which has helped there. So, that's generally the story at a high level. As we look over the next a quarter or two, as I mentioned in my opening remarks in the last call as well, we have ramp inefficiencies from the launch of Austin and Berlin. We also have pressures coming from inflation, supply chain, raw materials, et cetera. And so, where that nets out is hard to say in the immediate term. And we obviously, as a company, are going to be driving to increase margins as much as we can. But I just want to be realistic that we're launching two factories simultaneously here and it unavoidably will add cost to the business as we do that. And as we look further out, and Elon mentioned this in his opening remarks as well, the software portion of the business, I think, is the one to really pay attention to. As Full Self-Driving features get rolled out to more and more folks, I mean, for me, personally, I prefer to drive my car with the FSD data on. And I think as more and more people experience that, take rates there, and then as we work towards the robotaxi space, there's actually quite a bit of upside on margins from a software perspective.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think basically everything pales in comparison to the value of robotaxi or personal driving. I mean, it's just -- I mean, that just tends to warm everything. You just go from having an asset that is -- has a utility of perhaps 12 hours a week per passenger car to maybe around 50 or 60 hours a week to a 5x increase in the utility of the asset. The cost didn't change. Yes. So, that's where just things just we had -- just kind of where’s your mind.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the last question from investors is Elon mentioned Level 4 autonomy could be achieved this year. Is it based off initial FSD beta rollout experience or is Level 4 ability predicated on Dojo being completed online?
Elon Musk:
As mentioned earlier, Dojo is not required for Full Self-Driving. It should have a positive effect on the cost of training networks. It's not just a question like, does it get to Full Self-Driving but really kind of like the March of Nines of reliability, is it 99.999% reliable or 99.999999% reliable. This is -- it gets nutty. So, obviously we want to get to close to perfection as possible. So frankly, being safe than a human is a low standard, not a high standard. People are very, very lossy, often distracted, tired, texting. Anyway, it's remarkable that we don't have more accidents. So, it's -- yes. So actually being better than a human, I think, is relatively very forward, frankly, how do you be 1,000% better or 10,000% better. Yes. That's what gets much harder. But I think anyone who's been in the FSD beta program, I mean, if they were just to plot the progress of the beta interventions per mile, it's obviously trending to a very small number of interventions per mile and pace of improvement is fast. And there are several profound improvements to the FSD stack that are coming in the next few months. So, yes. I would be shocked if we do not achieve Full Self-Driving safer than human this year. I would be shocked.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to analyst questions now. And the first question comes from Jed from Canaccord. Jed, feel free to unmute yourself and ask a question.
Jed Dorsheimer:
Hi. Thanks, and congratulations on a great year. Elon, I guess, my question is around the Megapack or your energy business. And so, as we look at the strategy or the supply chain constraints that you mentioned, you have two different strategies or it seems like with Megapack and Powerwall. And I think the Powerwall was answered with 4680 and the 2170 opening up. So, I was wondering if you could just talk about the supply chain and LFP for the Megapack and what we should expect for that.
Elon Musk:
Yes. To be clear, we do think that old stationary storage, Powerwall and Megapack, will be -- will transition to an iron-based system, basically a non-nickel system. Manganese is also -- could be part of the future, but primarily iron. It just comes down -- iron nickel -- we need something that is formed in a star before a supernova, ideally. So iron is. So that's because there's a ridiculous amount of iron on earth as is a ridiculous amount of lithium. So, you can really expect all stationary storage to transition to iron over time. And like I said, with manganese is like a wildcard, manganese. And I should say like we did short-change the energy business last year and that vehicle took priority over the energy side. So not on cells, but on -- yes, on chipset, yes. So, we do see a very -- I mean, long-term probably terawatt-hour per year energy business. A lot -- it's very vast. Yes.
Jed Dorsheimer:
That's helpful. Thank you. So, you see that '22 is kind of the opening of that the energy business reaccelerating?
Elon Musk:
It's hard to predict 2022 because we still have lingering supply chain -- there are still lingering supply chain issues globally. But I think the chip stuff, at least the chip side of things appears to looks like it will alleviate end of this year or '23. I mean, there are a crazy number of chip fabs being built, which is great. The sheer number of chip fabs being built right now is exciting to see, yes. So, there could be other issues. We're trying to anticipate those as much as possible but predicting the future is difficult.
Unidentified Company Representative:
And the goal is definitely to grow it this year.
Elon Musk:
Yes. We'll grow it this year, for sure. It's just -- we -- if we're simply -- we're able to respond to demand, it might grow by like 200% or 300% or something as opposed to sort of 50% or so.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I mean, I think it's exactly that. I mean, it's a question of does it double, triple, quadruple? I mean, either way, I think our plans are pretty ambitious for Megapack this year and storage in general. The exact amount of growth is hard to know. But ultimately, I mean, to Elon's point about the growth of this business, I mean, we need to be growing it faster than the vehicle business.
Elon Musk:
And it will naturally grow faster than the vehicle business once we can -- yes, the chip constraint, frankly. So, it will grow like stars [ph] basically on the road, it needs to. And our primary mission is to accelerate sustainable energy. That's always been our primary mission and we're trying to stay true to that.
Martin Viecha:
The next question comes from Ben Kallo from Baird.
Ben Kallo:
I was wondering on the R&D front because like you said, you have so many [indiscernible]. How do you organize the R&D efforts so that you can start talking about all these new products? Is there like an incubator or some type of thing like that? But just structurally, I'm curious about that. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Well, we don't have incubators.
Andrew Baglino:
Or research centers.
Elon Musk:
Research centers.
Andrew Baglino:
We work on things that go into our products.
Elon Musk:
Yes, we're like this is a useful product that the world really needs. And we’re just like let’s make this thing, design it up and iterate fast and then figure out how to make this at scale at a reasonable price. That last part is the super hard part. Many times, we've said prototypes are easy, production is hard. We could work out that as a way of prototypes, but what's the point of that? Like you actually have to reach scale production and have cash and exceed cash out. That's the super hard part.
Andrew Baglino:
So, everybody needs to be in the factory often enough to be able to understand that last part of the equation. And if you're in the research center...
Elon Musk:
Yes. Doing them separately is like --for actually making products. So, we don't think of it as R&D and then like the product development. It's just one talking -- one be able to just make great product -- is the same general societally with those way too much value placed on the idea. It's like the -- like the idea of going to the moon. That's what the hard part. Okay, going to the moon is the hard part by far. And the thing is that that is true for really most products. So, this is just weighing too much value placed in the idea of versus execution. And we have ideas -- we have a bazillion ideas. So many ideas we don't know what do with. Sort through them and say, which one are we actually going to going through blood, sweat and tears in terms of bringing to volume production. That's the super -- and then actually do that, right -- that's tough.
Unidentified Company Representative:
And the closer you are to applying blood, sweat and tears to actual production, the faster you'll be able to bring new things into actual production.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. You want to tie it back with production, just like the office we're sitting in right now, looks over the Giga Texas production line, like the offices are integrated into the factory.
Martin Viecha:
The next question comes from Toni Sacconaghi from Bernstein.
Toni Sacconaghi:
I have two, please. First, you spoke a lot about FSD and how the economics could be very attractive going forward. I'm wondering if you could just share what your current attach rate might be for FSD on your vehicles or how to think about the progress of your attach rate or revenue in FSD, let's say, in '21 versus '20? And how much deferred revenue for FSD was drawn down during the year? And I have a follow-up, please. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think the FSD stuff, you really don't want to be looking at the rearview mirror. It will not be a good indicator for the future. This is what you need to look out the front windscreen, so -- because it is such a profound step change. I mean, effectively long term, every car will have FSD. And so, -- and the value of that will be a very big number. I just look at this as asset utilization. You have a passenger car, which normally is driven maybe 1.5 hours a day on average, maybe 10 -- 10 hours, 10, 12 hours a week, a lot of cars are in parking lots. So, we're spending money, not just driving the cars but storing them all over the place. We can get rid of a lot of parking lots if you have a car that is operating all the time. But there will be a challenge with traffic. So, we like this little tiny baby company, The Boring Company, which I initially started as a joke, and now I think it actually could be quite essential to alleviating the insane traffic that will happen when cars are autonomous because you reduce the pain of travel and you reduce the cost of travel so dramatically that there will be a crazy number of cars on the road. I mean, it's going to be -- I think it's way cheaper to draw a price point with robotaxi, which is an autonomous Tesla, which every car we've made in the past three or four years will be capable of that, than a bus or a subway, will cost less than the subsidized value of a bus ticket. So, if we want to get -- I'm not going to take the bus. If it costs you -- I don't know for arguments sake $2 to travel 10 miles point to point, taking the bus, especially in cold weather or dark or maybe a little bit dangerous or that. I just do not understand how profound change this is. It's not like some little feature, select the most profound software upgrade, maybe in history. Millions of cars suddenly have about 4 or 5 times utility [indiscernible] overnight. I don't actually know how to quantify that financially except that it's some big number.
Toni Sacconaghi:
Elon, I was wondering if I could just follow up and ask. You talked about your product road map and also your goal to keep growing at 50% per year or better. That would put you at 3.2 million vehicles or more in 2024. And I think you made reference to Cybertruck maybe being 250,000 vehicles. If there is no $25,000 vehicle being worked on, is it really realistic to think that you can sell more than 3 million vehicles with two very high-volume cars and Cybertruck in 2024, or how do we think about that or what else is missing in that equation?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, it's apparent from the questions that the gravity of Full Self-Driving is not fully appreciated. If an asset has 5 times more utilization than the -- it's like dividing the cost of that asset by 5. So, if you have a $50,000 car, it's like having a $10,000 car all of a sudden, but maybe better than that because still you don't want to drive. So the person can be engaged in productivity or amusement instead of having to onerously drive through traffic. So, it's probably better than 5 times, I don't know. Yes. I mean, basically, if the cost of our cars do not change at all, we would still sell as many as we could possibly make.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the next question comes from Pierre Ferragu from New Street Research.
Pierre Ferragu:
I wanted to come back on battery. So, it's great to hear on one hand that you guys expect to sell like the first car with 4680 this quarter and at the same time that you don't really depend on that ramp to achieve your -- what you hope to achieve in terms of significant volume growth this year. And the question I had is I understand well the ramp of 4680 internally. But I'd be curious to hear you talk about how you think about 4680 as being a form factor that your suppliers could adopt as well. And how you see in the long run, in the greater scheme of things, what does 4680 become? Is it going to be outside of Tesla the largest form factor for batteries? Is it something that you guys are going to deploy in all cars, whatever the chemistry also in the Megapack, in all your energy storage business? And do you expect eventually a lot of other companies to use that form factor as well?
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. On the 4680 as a form factor, yes, we've engaged with a number of our partners or suppliers on the form factor and they're all working on it. And they look at it the way we look at it as a way to drive fundamental cost efficiencies in production and also ultimately, the design of the cell itself to drive the cost down of the cell. And so, that's what's engaged -- I mean, we're engaged because we think it's a good form factor there, engaged because they think it's a good form factor, and we want people to make it for sure. To the question about should everything be 4680, it doesn't have to be. In the end, it's about cost competitiveness, scalability of manufacturing. And when you compare like an iron cell with a nickel cell, for example, like there are some just physics-based differences in what happens in certain corner cases that would drive different form factors, and we just have to be cognizant of that and design to that. So, it isn't like the ultimate form factor for all things. There's other form factors that could be better for an iron cell, for example.
Elon Musk:
So, we don't use 4680 at all for the iron cells.
Pierre Ferragu:
Okay. Thanks. And I have a quick follow-up on chips. So, you've talked a lot about all this shortage and the supply difficulties. And I was wondering if you could give us some color on like the power chips you need for investors and all the power systems you're putting together versus like the more traditional logic chips, if the situation is different between the two? And should we understand from the situation today that you're working very hard also at expanding the scope of your suppliers? And should we expect like Tesla to take on board additional suppliers in the near term, especially on the power side?
Elon Musk:
Well, last year was chip hell of many chips, so silicon carbide inverters certainly one of them, but...
Unidentified Company Representative:
Honestly, there's a lot of annoying very boring parts.
Elon Musk:
Yes. It's a ton of very simple control chips that front-of-the-mill literally. Yes. Basic to control.
Unidentified Company Representative:
It also references oscillators, so very boring things.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. Like the little chip that allows you to move your seat back and forth. That actually was a big problem. Yes. But a lot of these things are alleviating. I think there's some degree of the toilet paper problem as well, where there was a toilet paper shortage during COVID. Like obviously, it wasn't really certainly a tremendous enhanced need for [expletive] wiping. It's just people panicked in order -- and got every paper you could possibly wipe your [expletive] with basically. This is like a real thing, I actually took my kids to the H-E-B and Walmart in Texas to just confirm if this was real. Indeed, it was. And there's plenty of food and everything else, but just nothing, no paper products. An odd choice for people to panic about. [Indiscernible] as we told at the least of your problems. So, I think we saw just a lot of companies over-order chips and they buffer the chips. And so, we should see -- we are seeing alleviation in almost every area, but the output of the vehicle is -- goes with the least lucky. What is the most problematic item in the entire car? And there's like at least 10,000 unique parts in the car. So, waiting more than that if you go further off the supply chain and it's just -- which one is going to be the least lucky one this time? It's hard to say.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. I mean, on a go-forward basis, right, the idea is to continue to drive simplification. So, there are fewer unique parts, fewer of them. On the power side, in particular, it's still like an area of like technological development where the next chip can do the same thing with less [dia area], so like the total fab required to accomplish the function goes down. So, there's still room to grow without needing more fab capacity. But in general, there's a lot more fab capacity coming. So that's like a win-win there.
Elon Musk:
Yes. It's not a long-term thing because there's going to be -- there's a great amount of chip fabs being built, which is great.
Martin Viecha:
Well, thank you very much. Unfortunately, that is all the time we have for this session. Thanks very much for all your good questions. And we'll speak to you again in three months' time. Have a good day. Bye, bye.
Lars Moravy:Vice President of Vehicle Engineering:
Martin Viecha :
Good afternoon, everyone and welcome to Tesla 's Third Quarter 2021 Q&A webcast. My name is Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations and I'm joined today by our CFO, Zachary Kirkhorn, and our Senior VP, Drew Baglino, as well as other executives. Our Q3 results were announced at about 3 p.m. Central Time in the Update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump into the Q&A, Zach has some opening remarks. Zach?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Yeah. Thanks, Martin. We're continuing to make great progress as a Company, setting new records on each of the most important financial metrics for Q3. Overall, we delivered just over 240,000 cars, 20% higher than last quarter, and 70% higher than the same quarter last year. We were also able to achieve an annualized production run rate of over 1 million cars towards the end of the quarter. The increase in production rate has primarily been driven by further ramping of the Model Y at our Shanghai factory. Additionally, we have made great progress, increasing production volumes of Model S, and have recently started to ramp and deliveries of Model X. It will take a bit more time to get this program back to prior volumes. But based on demand, we're targeting to exceed historical production levels. We've also completed the transition of our Shanghai factory as our main export hub. This has enabled us to supply more vehicles to the North America market and to introduce Model Y to Europe. Due to part shortages and logistics variability, we have not been able to run our factories at full capacity. It's important to note that while we have roughly doubled deliveries year-to-date, this has been exceptionally difficult to achieve. I want to thank our supply chain team for their incredible work and our production teams for showing impressive flexibility as we make adjustments real-time. These teams' expertise in the chip industry across all tiers has made a huge difference in managing through these challenges. Additionally, we never reduced our production forecast with our suppliers as we're adding capacity as quickly as possible. I also want to thank our suppliers for the dedication and partnership to Tesla. Despite these increases in production and generally higher prices, our backlogs are continuing to grow and average customer wait times are extending. The only practical way to address this in the immediate term is to do everything we can to build more cars on our existing production lines, which is where we are focused. Similar dynamics are also playing out in our storage business as we are working to expand Powerwall and Megapack production as quickly as parts themselves allow us to do so. Additionally, we have made good progress on the in-house battery manufacturing program. And we're excited to have expanded the full self-driving beta program to more customers. Financially, our auto gross margins reached 30.5% on a GAAP basis and just under 29%, excluding regulatory credits, which was our strongest yet. This benefit primarily comes from higher volumes, particularly out of the Shanghai factory, increased mix of the Model Y as we -- and we have made good progress increasing Model S volumes. The Model S has now returned to positive gross margin and we expect this to increase with higher production and the ramp of Model X. As was the case in Q2, there were some net benefit from pricing actions. However, this remains small in the context of other contributors. Please keep in mind that given backlog, it will take time for the impact of recent changes to flow through our financials. Note that we are also not yet recognizing additional revenue from the FSD Beta program. Supply chain challenges, including expedites, continue to provide cost headwinds, as was also the case with FX this quarter. While we are seeing an impact from the rise in commodity and labor costs, we have also been adjusting pricing, which should help to compensate. Overall, as I mentioned in our last call, our P&L continues to benefit from the marginal profitability of each incremental unit with higher fixed cost absorption. As a result of the great progress on margins, volume, and appropriate management of overhead costs, we were able to achieve an operating margin of just under 15%, exceeding the long-term guidance we've laid out previously. On cash, we generated record operating cash flows of $3.1 billion and continued to invest heavily in the build-out of manufacturing, supercharging, and service capacity. We also continue to retire high interest rate debt, including the early settlement of our 2025 senior notes of $1.8 billion during the quarter. As we look forward, we're clearly quite a bit ahead of the pacing required to achieve our target annual growth rate of 50% this year. Q4 production will depend heavily on availability of parts, but we are driving for continued growth. We are also nearing assembly of our first-production cars in Austin and Berlin. It's important to stress, while the first production car is an important milestone, the hardest work lies ahead in the ramp. Please keep in mind that we are pushing the boundaries on new product and manufacturing technologies at these factories, which makes it difficult to predict the exact pace of the ramp. These factories will also partially lay on our margins as we work towards volume production. Overall, I am very proud of what the team has accomplished, and I'm excited for our next phase of growth into Q4 and into 2022. The team has done a tremendous job improving our financial health in a short period of time, while also continuing to improve our precision and pace of execution. Thank you.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. And we will now take questions from institutional and retail shareholders that we posted on our website. The first question is, when should we expect the first vehicles to be delivered with 4680 cells?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Yes, thanks, Martin. Earlier next year, from a non-cell perspective, structural battery crash, range, and reliability testing are on track to be complete this quarter. Testing to-date has gone well, and the Fremont manufacturing line is on track to support. However, similar to what Zach said before, this is a new architecture, and unknown unknowns may exist still. Our top priority is ensuring quality in what we deliver. And from a cell perspective, we are comfortable with the design maturity and manufacturing readiness, matching the pack timeline I just mentioned.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. The second question from institutional investor comes, do you still expect to start production of the $25,000 model in 2023. What are the biggest hurdles from now until then?
Lars Moravy :
Yeah, we're working on a strategy to increase our production rates as quickly as possible. I think Zach spoke to that well. And we're doing this while trying to add the least amount of incremental complexities to the business. We don't want to add any new vehicles to our lineup when we're generally in a cell constrained world. While there is still more runway to grow these existing products, we are focused on Model Y expansion in Austin and Berlin, ramping S&X further in Fremont to restore to past levels, while also growing 3 and Y production in Fremont and Shanghai. As we've mentioned before, after Model Y in Austin, our next product launch will be Cybertruck. And that time and course depend on increasing cell capacity, both from our suppliers and through our inherent cell, as well as many other headwinds we face in supply chain, and completing our currently full plate of products on the table.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. The third question is, with FSD Beta training dataset set to explode exponentially as software is released to a wider and wider audience, are there any early takeaways with regards to how quickly versions can iterate and be pushed out from biweekly to weekly or even daily?
Lars Moravy :
At this point, it's not so much about how much data can we collect, but how quickly can we process the data we've collected. This is where Dojo comes in as we mentioned on AI Day with substantially faster training computer. In Dojo, we will be able to iterate more often than we do now. If for instance, say the training, and that takes one day instead of one week, makes a huge difference in our ability to push out more updates. But realistically, there's a whole lot more that comes into play when iterating software updates. The whole infrastructure from top to bottom, including testing and validation, needs to be set up for faster iteration. So daily updates are not really realistic for now.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. The next question is, "Can you provide an update on future model development and how much diversity in your fleet will be necessary to achieve 20 million in annual volumes? The best-selling cars in the world today only sell slightly over 1 million units, so is it possible to achieve 20 million units with just S, X, 3, Y, truck and the $25,000 car?"
Lars Moravy :
Thanks, Martin. As we've mentioned before, we've seen record growth of both Model 3 and Model Y segments, where Model 3 is currently the bestselling luxury sedan worldwide. As we mentioned at our shareholder's meeting, Model Y is poised to be the bestselling vehicle in the world. Tesla continues to break molds in these vehicle segments and we hope to do so with each new product. As we've said publicly, we'll eventually expand the vehicle line up to get to larger volumes, and we believe that we will need to be in all major segments across small and mid-size, large sedans, SUVs, and trucks to do so. Along with, of course, the massive space of robotaxi.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. The next question, a question from retail shareholder is, what is Tesla 's goal for vehicle production capacity for the four current factories, Fremont, Shanghai, Austin and Berlin by 2024?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Yeah. Thanks, Martin. Our goal as a company here is to grow on an average pace of 50% per year. And so, you can extrapolate that out. There may be some periods of time in which we're well ahead of that. There could be some periods of time, despite best efforts, where we're slightly lower than that. But that remains the long-term goal of the Company. In Fremont, we're continuing to push the boundaries of what's possible there. Over the last 12 months, we've done about 430,000 cars of production. And based upon everything that we know in the factory where the bottlenecks are, what the potential is, we’re targeting to increase that another 50%. I think that will be a difficult goal, but that's the goal that the internal team has. And they're going to continue to push on that. As we look towards Shanghai, we're continuing to push the boundaries there, and we continue to ramp production there as well. So most recently, the ramp up to Model Y, which was our biggest contributor of volume in Q3. We'll continue to ramp that factory. And in our plans, there with time are to keep growing the capacity in that factory. Austin and Berlin are interesting factories because our first iterations of capacity there are on Model Y. But we've intentionally set these factories and locations in which they have a quite significant amount of land and ability to expand. And so, we'll take Model Y at these factories. We're trying to get to 5,000 cars a week as soon as we can. And then we'll continue to push beyond that, potentially even getting to 10,000 cars per week at those factories. And then we will add Cybertruck here in Austin and continue to grow from there. So, our goal is to get to millions of cars per year over the next couple of years. And then ultimately in the long term, be able to achieve 20 million cars per year. We're going to grow as quickly as is feasibly possible with an eye towards a 50% annual growth rate.
Martin Viecha :
Great. Thank you very much. The next question is, what is your view on the tightening regulatory environment for FSD in the investigation and broad data request by NHTSA? Some of the recent nominees to NHTSA have been publicly critical of FSD, including engaging with short-sellers online. How will you manage these environments?
Lars Moravy :
Thanks, Martin. As we have been for years, we always engage with NHTSA and other worldwide regulatory bodies to share our knowledge and to work with them on our approaches on both active and passive safety. There are ongoing regulatory inquiries taking place all the time, and especially on the subjects. FSD, they're at the cutting edge of technology development. During these investigations, my team, myself, are always cooperative as much as possible. We expect to embrace the scrutiny of these products and know that the truth about their performance and the innovations our products have will ultimately be all that matters. In the end then and as I've said on previous calls, we take safety as a top priority in all our designs. This is because our primary motivation is coming from a team of incredible engineers designing software and hardware that saves lives and prevents injuries. And doing so, we'll continue to be transparent to the public on how our technology is both developing from an autopilot safety data, the latest of which we just shared in the shareholder update. And you can also see in review a wide variety of customer post, FSD videos on social media.
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Just to add to that, I mean, as Lars said, safety is extremely important for Tesla. It's the right thing to do. And if you look at various independent testing and regulatory testing of our products, you can see the work of incredibly talented engineers in the results of those tests. And our goal in developing safety-oriented software around the car is to continue to go beyond what the hardware is able to provide. If you can prevent a crash from happening, that's the safest way to manage this. And I think at a macro level here, what we're seeing, and this is entirely understandable and expected is that the automotive industry is going through a transition from the traditional car as we know, it to more computer software-oriented sensor suites around them that can manage things beyond just what the driver manages. And in regulatory bodies are understandably so are interested in understanding how to regulate in this environment. And this has no exception to that. So as Lars mentioned here, I think this is a great thing. We're excited to partner. And we'll work collaboratively with all regulatory bodies who want to go on that journey to the transition to a software-oriented vehicle.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. The next question is, service remains an issue with appointments available weeks or even months out. Likewise, supercharger wait out has become untenable at some locations. What concrete steps is Tesla taking to improve the customer experience in these two key areas?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
I will take the service part of this question. Drew, you can take the supercharging part. We have seen an increase in service late times throughout the summer, and there's a couple of things that have contributed to that based upon the information that we had. The first is that I think this is not -- this is not unique to us is that the return to some sense of normalcy in a post-pandemic world has happened I think more quickly than most people expected. And what we're seeing here is that the number of miles that people are driving has increased. There may have been some demand for service during 2020 or in the early parts of 2021 that customers put off. And so, there's a bit of a catch-up that's occurring that has increased demand for service. At the same time, in the macro-environment here, logistics, moving parts, sourcing parts, has become increasingly more difficult, which is a well-known issue in the world right now, as well as challenges in the labor market. And so, there's this simultaneous increase in demand for service, where the ability to supply that service has been impacted for the reasons I mentioned. And so, we saw an uptick primarily in Europe and North America and service wait times over the course of the summer. And we've been working extremely hard since then to address this. And we've seen our wait times come down. So, this is not the case in every location, but if you think about it from regional average perspectives, we are seeing improvements there. We remain super-focused on adding locations. And so, over the last year, we've grown our physical footprint of service centers by 35%. We've grown our footprint of mobile repair by over 40%. We're also adding staffing as quickly as we can in the areas that are most impacted by the imbalance of supply and demand for service. But I think the most important part about all of this is -- and we've said this on calls before where the best service is no service. And so, we have been incredibly focused as a Company, both on the initial quality of our vehicles and reliability of our vehicles. And we've seen pretty substantially improvements in both of those metrics over the long term and over the last couple of quarters. So, it is something that remains on our minds. We monitor this very closely. But hopefully, that's a helpful explanation into the context and what we're doing.
Andrew Baglino :
And on the Supercharger side, Supercharging team monitors congestion and plans expansion to ensure customer experience met with minimal wait times alongside the growth in our vehicle fleet. While we certainly have work to do in an expanding capacity in some congested areas, average congestion on the network has decreased over the past 18 months. Nonetheless, we're not standing still. We are executing accelerating expansion plans globally. The network has doubled in the last 18 months, and we are planning to triple it over the next 2 years. And even so, on an individual site basis, to combat existing congestion more quickly where it is isolated and programmatic, we expedite local relief sites, deploy mobile Superchargers, and we try to introduce pricing strategies that encourage more off-peak usage to avoid the waiting.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much.
Zachary Kirkhorn :
I want just one thing to add on supercharging. If you haven't experienced our latest iteration of battery packs that can handle fast charge rates in combination with our 250-watt -- kilowatt charging stations, it's pretty incredible. And this is a really important component to supercharging capacity. The faster you can charge, the more charge sessions that you can have on an individual post. That other customer experiences as you're going on a long-term journey because you're supercharging times are lower.
Andrew Baglino :
Yeah.
Zachary Kirkhorn :
So, this is a really important part of the strategy. Super charging team has done a great job rolling this out. But it requires a combination of the 250-kilowatt charging in our latest iteration battery packs.
Andrew Baglino :
And we've also maintained an ongoing roadmap on software improvements, dynamic routing to avoid busy superchargers; that's actually really helpful. We take the real-time busyness of the stations into account when choosing where to navigate people on their road trip. And beyond that, we're also continuing to improve the Trip Planner itself and how it estimates how much energy people use so it's not too conservative and ask them to be able to charge more than they need to, which is another thing that can delay a total trip.
Martin Viecha :
Great. Thank you very much. The next question is, is Tesla considering any other ideas other than FSD with the real-world AI that can bring additional software revenue to Tesla? If not, can Tesla consider building interesting games around FSD Beta?
Lars Moravy :
Sure. At AI Day we did talk about potential future where Dojo could be used as a neural net training platform for other companies. It's not a focus of ours today as we are fully subscribed on Dojo with our internal uses, we do expect to continue to improve the in-car experience in the context of FSD
Martin Viecha :
Great. Thank you. And maybe last question from shareholders is, how does FSD take rate -- how has FSD take rate change since the introduction of monthly subscription? Are there any plans to increase the FSD pricing as why the release becomes imminent?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
I'll take the second part of the question first, we won't be providing any forward-looking commentary on our pricing strategy or what may happen here over the near term. With respect to the first part of the question, it has been an interesting thing for us to impact within the Company. What I'll say, just as a general statement before I make a couple of specific comments, is that the things that we learned on FSD subscription today are not necessarily all that relevant. This is really more of a platform for when FSD Beta goes into wide release, and the features and functionality become more accessible to more customers. The second thing that I'll note is that if you look at the pricing, the monthly pricing of FSD subscription, and then you compare that to the cost of rolling FSD option into your lease or you loan, on a monthly basis to note the economical way for a customer to enjoy the features of full self-driving is through purchasing it upfront and enrolling into their financing. And as a result of that, what we've seen in the data is not -- we're unable to detect a change in the upfront take rate of FSD when people when people purchase cars. We have seen quite a bit of activity of folks carry us to experience what the software has to offer and subscribing to it and enjoying it to that route. But again, as I said at the beginning, I think what we've seen so far on FSD subscription is not terribly relevant. We'll see how that plays out in the future as we continue to release more features.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. And now let's go to analyst questions. [Operator Instructions]. The next question comes from Q - Pierre Ferragu from New Street Research. Pierre, feel free to unmute your mic and go ahead. Pierre, I think your mic is muted. Okay. While Pierre works on that, let's go to the next analyst. The next question comes from Q - Joseph Spak from RBC. Joe, we cannot hear you. Can you click unmute? Okay. While the team is working on that, let's just go back to say the questions. The next set of upcoming question is, Can Tesla allow for FSD to be transferred to another vehicle at a fee, something less than 10-K? Early adopters are paying the price if they want to upgrade their vehicle. You lose the value on the trade-in, and now you have to buy in at a higher cost.
Zachary Kirkhorn :
I don't think that this is widely known but we already actually doing the sentiment of what this question is asking. If you trade in your Tesla to Tesla, we -- there's a difference in price that we pay for a trade-in that has FSD compared to one that doesn't. And so, there's -- there's that premium that we pay to repurchase the FSD. That money can then be applied towards the purchase of the new car. So, I just -- we hear this feedback quite a bit, we see it on social media, we see it in the forums, etc. And so, this already does exist. And not directly in the form here. And we don't call it out explicitly in the trade-in, potentially that we have increased the price of your trade-in as a result. And hopefully, this clears this out because we do actually do that.
Martin Viecha :
Okay. The next question is, Elon said that we get an update on Cybertruck in November a year ago, but it hasn't happened and we know there are a lot of updates. Will you show off the new and improved Cybertruck?
Lars Moravy :
Yeah. Thanks, Martin. We get a lot of questions on Cybertruck. We've been busy detailing the Cybertruck to achieve the prototype version we shared with customers awhile back. As you may have seen recently on social media, we've built a number of alphas and are currently testing those to further mature the design. And while those point out a few key additions like rear steer. There are also a number of smaller or less visible improvements, though the product is largely true to the initial vision. We'll continue to work through the product in the beta stages that we're in now and look to launch that by next year.
Martin Viecha :
Okay. Thank you very much. We just promoted Pierre to a presenter here.
Pierre Ferragu :
Can you hear me, guys?
Martin Viecha :
Yes, we can hear you.
Pierre Ferragu :
Amazing. I'm very impressed that you managed to figure that out.
Martin Viecha :
We have to.
Andrew Baglino :
Thank you, Pierre.
Pierre Ferragu :
[Indiscernible]. Anyway. Let me ask my question. I actually, I'm very intrigued by what you guys are doing on the insurance front, and you have now in the market index us, an insurance product for which the premium varies as a function of the safety score of the driver. And so, I'd love to hear you about that. You must have some initial data points so that market's reaction, what's the update? And from there, can you tell us about how you think you're going to distribute that? Is that going to go through your installed base very easily or is it going to be like a heavy marketing bush? And then will you tell us about your expansion plans. What are the next geographies, what's the timing, how fast is that business line likely to grow in the next few years?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Thank you, Pierre. I'm extremely passionate about our insurance product. We have a terrific team here at Tesla of folks up who have been spending a lot of time developing this, and probably listening to the call. We're pretty excited so far up here. At the highest level here, we entered the insurance markets unintentionally, I would say. Our customers were coming to us complaining that the price of traditional insurance was too high. And it was reducing the affordability of a Tesla. And part of our journey here at Tesla is we want as many people as possible to be able to afford our products. That's extremely important to achieving the mission of the Company. And if you look at the price of insurance as a percentage of what somebody's monthly payment is, it's quite high. And we spend extreme amount of effort in manufacturing to take $5 upon cost-out here, or $10 out somewhere else. If we can get $5, $10, $20, $30 out on a monthly payment, you can calculate what that means in terms of reduction of the price of the car if you finance it, and the leverage of improving insurance cost is huge in terms of affordability. And so that's kind of the context by which we stepped into those. As we started to do more research, essentially the tools by which the insurance has traditionally calculated are optimized based upon the existing data. But the existing data is limited. So, they felt there's a focus on things like marital status or age, or other attributes like that. Accident history is a good one, etc. What essentially happens here is customers who are low-risk and don't actually file many claims end up overpaying on their insurance relative to their cost. That over payment then goes to riskier customers for essentially being subsidized. And as we looked at this and we looked at the data, we thought this just doesn't seem like it's fair. At Tesla, because our cars are connected, because they are essentially computers on wheels, there's enormous amounts of data that we have available to us to be able to assess the attributes of a driver who's operating that car, and whether those attributes correlate with safety. Because we do get a signal when a car has been in an accident. So, we've been spending our time looking at hundreds of different variables and also looking at billions of miles of driving history. And we've been able to fit a model that is able to predict with decent accuracy the probability of collision over a period of time. And the model is not perfect. The model is a function of the data that we have available. That dataset continues to grow. We continue to experiment with new variables, but we do have a model that works pretty well, so far. And from that model being able to predict frequency of collision, we can then align that against the price curve. And we can have individualized pricing integrated into the car, integrated into the app, integrated into that customer's experience. With the feedback loop back to the customer on how they are driving after every drive, the attributes that they were successful on or unsuccessful on, and the tips of things that they can do to improve their safety. That's what we've developed. We then included the safety score as part of the FSD Beta enrollment program where we have almost 150,000 cars currently using the safety score. And I believe the latest data is over 100 million miles of driving. We've been able to go back and analyze that data and we've learned 2 things coming from that. The first is that the probability of collision for a customer using safety score versus not is 30% lower. That's a pretty big difference. It means that the product is working and customers are responding to it. The second thing that we've looked at is what is the probability of collision based upon actual data as a function of a driver safety score. And that is aligning with our models. Most notably, if you're in the top tier of safety compared to lower tiers, there's multiplex difference in probability of collision based upon actual data. So, this is a very new and very exciting frontier for us. I know that was long-winded but I -- we spent a lot of time on this and we put a lot of thought into it. Specifically, with respect to the rollout, the insurance industry in the U.S. is intensely regulated, and it's regulated on a state-by-state level. That means that we require regulatory approvals from each individual in department of insurance at each individual state. Texas is the first state that we launched in. I do want to thank the Texas insurance regulators here, you've been great to work with. We have a road map of additional states. We will launch the product in those states as we receive regulatory approvals. And our goal is to be in every major market in which we have cars in. The -- we did a soft launch in Texas, was its last week?
Pierre Ferragu :
Uh-huh.
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Yeah. And what we're seeing in initial take rate data is that, if you compare that to what we're seeing in California, we're off to a good start here. So, we're very excited about it. We're excited about individual risk-based pricing. We're excited about the ability for folks to become safer and as a result, save money. And it feeds into our priority of a Company of building the safest products in the world.
Lars Moravy :
Yeah. If I can add to that, it's really exciting for the engineering team, for the finance team in taking on safety into their world to explore basis. Thanks for that, guys.
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Thank you, Lars.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you. Pierre, do you have a follow-up question?
Pierre Ferragu :
No. I think I'm fine, Zach. Thanks for taking the time to answer. It's fascinating and very interesting. Yes, I look forward to looking to that.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. The next question comes from Joseph Spak from RBC.
Joseph Spak :
Thanks. Can you hear me?
Martin Viecha :
Yeah, we can hear you.
Joseph Spak :
Perfect. Zach, as you noticed -- as you noted, you hit low-teens operating margins. That was your medium-term target. You're there now, despite the number of challenges and not full utilization to the plan. How are you thinking about that target now? Does it allow you to go lagging, either drive price down further to unlock more demand and invest in other initiatives or does that target and need to change? And in longer term, do you have an aspirational gross margin target as the mix of software and hardware changes?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Yeah. We have achieved -- we've actually exceeded our long-term guidance on our operating margin target. So, we're very pleased to see that. And as we look out over the next quarter and the next year, there's a number of puts and takes financially for the Company. The launch of Austin and Berlin will have ramp inefficiencies there for some period of time until we get those factories up and running. And so that's likely to put some downward pressure on our margins as those factories ramp. Our goals are to ramp those as quickly as possible. But as Drew mentioned earlier, there are a number of unknown unknowns that we'll need to work through. We are also in this uncertain environment with respect to cost structure. We are seeing costs increase on the commodity side. We're getting feedback from our suppliers as we're seeing ourselves the impact of labor shortage. And then logistics and expedite costs just continue to be a part of our story here and it's uncertain how that will unfold. It's our hope that these things stabilize. Exactly when that happens is difficult to predict. And we have been adjusting pricing in line with those changes in cost. And so, we'll see how that unfolds over the course of the next year. So, it's difficult on gross margin to say where that will go for those reasons. With respect to operating margin, we've been very focused as a Company on managing our overhead expenses and operating expenses. And operating expenses as a percentage of revenue has been declining and I expect that trend to continue to happen. And I think the net of all of this is hopefully that we continue to make progress on operating margin over the next 4 of 5 quarters. As we think forward, the business up until this point is kind of largely been a hardware automotive business with a little bit of software on top of that. As full self-driving matures, as take rates increase, if we are to raise pricing on that, there's considerable upside both on gross margins and operating margin as that comes to light, as the business starts to become more of a mix of a hardware-based Company and a software-based Company. So, we feel optimistic about the journey -- very optimistic about the journey as we look over into the long term, just a little bit difficult over the next 4 to 5 quarters. And we'll continue to update on earnings calls as we learn more information. There's just a lot of uncertainty in the world right now.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you, Joe, do you have a follow-up question?
Joseph Spak :
Yes, the question is just -- you mentioned LSP acts globally for standard range models. My understanding is that all comes from China. Is that the continued go-forward plan or do you want to have LSP capabilities in other factories around the world?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Yeah. Certainly, our goal is to localize all key parts of the vehicles on the continent, at least the continent, if not closer to where the vehicles that are produced. That is our goal and we’re working internally and with our suppliers to accomplish that goal. And not just at the end assembly level, but as far upstream as possible.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. And the next question comes from Colin Langham from Wells Fargo. Colin, are you able to unmute? While we're waiting for that, let's go to the next one.
Colin Langham:
Sorry. Do you hear me now?
Martin Viecha :
Yes, we can hear you now. Perfect.
Colin Langham:
Just actually kind of following up on the question before. You mentioned commodities arising, and when I look at a lot of the key raw materials in the battery, cobalt, nickel , lithium, all up 40%. And I know you guys have done a good job of getting long-term contracts to mitigate that impact. Have you seen so far, any impact from that spike? And if not, any sense of when that raw material headwind might actually show up or has shown up?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Yeah. We have seen an impact. Our primary exposure right now is around nickel and aluminum, nickel on the cell, aluminum on non-cell. And we have a mixture of contracts with various suppliers. In some materials, we contract directly and we have full exposure to price fluctuations. We do have a number of long-term commitments and long-term contracts in place. We also have contracts where there's some amount of cost -sharing based upon the movement of indexes. And so, as these have been moving, some of those costs have been flowing through to us. It's not a substantial amount of cost, but it's not small. As we look towards the next year, I certainly hope it doesn't play out this way, but it's possible that we continue to see more of cost headwind, as a result of these movements. It's difficult to say precisely, but the volatility in the increases are just substantial, so substantial. And there are certain suppliers that maybe up to a certain point have been absorbing some of the increase. And as contracts expire there, we have to renew and extend them. We'll have to return to negotiations. And so, what we have to do as a Company and what we are intensely focused on is we need to be continuing to drive down the cost of our products, which we have been doing. And we have to overcome cost increases that are outside of our control. So whether that's resourcing components or redesigning components or finding ways to be more efficient in manufacturing. We have no choice but to continue on that path and be even more aggressive in the light of the macroeconomics here.
Andrew Baglino :
And diversification. Right. Doesn't need to be nickel or cobalt, or I mean there's always another option.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you. Colin, do you have a follow-up question? Okay. Let's go to the next one. The next question comes from Colin Rusch from Oppenheimer.
Colin Rusch :
Hey, guys, can you hear me okay?
Martin Viecha :
Yeah, we can hear you.
Colin Rusch :
Perfect. Could you talk a little bit about your strategy around anode materials and your ability to leverage that into reduction on the cathode side and performance from the anode side?
Andrew Baglino :
Sure. I don't know that I am going to get in to too many specifics. But I guess first, one thing I would say is unlike the commodities discussion we just had, like the anode materials are not really in the same situation just in terms of what they are considering components are so there's less of a focus on rapidly changing them, one way or the other because they're generally stable commodities. There isn't exactly a tit for tat or get a better anode, use less cathode. There is a fundamental ratio that you need to maintain for the cell to function. –So I guess zooming out, the primary focus on the anodes side that we have is just ensuring that it doesn't in any way -- that we are able to continue to reduce the cost of the anode without impeding on the long-term cyclability of the product. It can also help with energy density. As you improve the energy density of the anode, you improve the energy density of the cell. Not directly one-to-one, because you have to pack more cathode in as the anode gets better. And that's a focus as well but the trades basis is just cycling versus day 1 cost.
Martin Viecha :
That's super helpful. And then, just around the vehicle pricing strategy, obviously, there's a lot of flexibility there for some customers and not, can you just talk a little bit about the process around vehicle pricing and how quickly you expect to change that and adjust as you see some of these commodity prices flow through the cost structure, and you look at demand dynamics for vehicles?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Yeah. Pricing has been a really difficult thing for us over the last couple of quarters. And we're -- part of the challenge is -- well, the great thing that we're seeing in the space right now is there appears to just be quite a profound awakening of desirability for electric vehicles. And to be totally frank, it's caught us a little bit off guard. And that kind of awakening and change in consumer sentiment, I'm sure there's lots of reasons that go into it, but folks want to buy an electric car and folks want to buy a Tesla right now. It's very exciting for us. At the same time, we have installed capacity to build more cars but we're constrained by a number of dynamics as we've talked about in great detail. And we are putting in an extreme effort to build as many cars as we possibly can. It's hard to overstate how extreme the efforts are. It's quite the grind. We're trying as hard as we can to maximize that capacity and to be able to meet the demand that we're receiving. But the net-net of all of this is that we're not able to increase production capacity fast enough. So, at the same time, we are seeing macroeconomic cost impacts on our structure as we've discussed previously on the call. So, we're trying to think through if somebody orders a car now, it could be delivered in some cases, and depending upon the car and which factory, could be a couple of months, could be a couple of quarters. And the timing in which we build that car will be just before that car gets delivered. And what will the world look like at that point? And so, we're trying to think through how the cost structure is evolving. How does pricing need to change with that? What are the supply dynamics in the space? The other thing that I will just note on pricing is that companies change pricing all the time. The difference is that when Tesla change its pricing, it's extremely transparent, where that's not always the case otherwise. And sometimes our pricing will increase, sometimes our pricing will reduce. Sometimes to the public, our pricing changes may not seem to make logical sense but there is a strategy that we work behind the scenes as we're balancing supply and demand, as we're also trying to balance various shortages on parts, as we're trying to manage wait times. All of that goes into the optimization here.
Martin Viecha :
Okay. Thank you very much. The next question is from Brian Johnson from Barclays. And Brian, please go ahead and you can unmute.
Brian Johnson:
[Indiscernible]? Can you hear?
Martin Viecha :
Yeah, we can hear you.
Brian Johnson:
By the way, great to hear there's a team at Tesla, and not just one person shows. I wanted to drill down a bit more on FSD. In December of 2020 in a Business Insider interview in Germany, your leaders said that he expected level 5 autonomy by December -- within a year, so that would be now. Yet, we look at the progress in FSD and some of the issues you see on YouTube, and it looks very much like a level 2 plus system that requires vigilance. It's a factor disclaimer site.
Brian Johnson:
So, I guess there's 3 questions. One, what is the timetable to get to level 4 at least capability, we can deal with the regulatory stuff later. Two, what is the criteria for Zach, for you to release revenue -- deferred revenue around FSD and it's having a level 2 system that needs monitoring enough to release that deferred revenue? And then three, maybe you could talk a little bit more about how you plan to work with the new -- with the folks at NHTSA who appear to be asking some questions. They have 3 requests out to you regarding information around the level 2 -- around the capabilities, the natural state.
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Yeah, [Inaudible]. We'll take them in order. It's difficult to be specific on the timelines. The bottom half of the team is working extremely hard, iterating on every version. We're being extremely transparent through the release of this to public customers who are posting information online. When you are using full self-driving and you're going to the iterations, you can feel the progress. And for those who don't have it in their cars, social media is excellent at getting a sense for how that's progressing. And the team is moving quickly, with every iteration, with every update. They're working very hard on that. On your second question about the criteria to release deferred revenue, the way that this works is, we have made certain commitments as to what this product can offer at the time that a customer has purchased that. And so, what we have to assess is, have we met those commitments, and is the software widely available to folks that we've made those commitments to within a certain geography. And given that FSD is still currently in the beta phase, it's invitation only and it's limited, we have not deemed that to be appropriate for recognition of deferred revenue. And we'll continue to evolve this, we'll continue to monitor it within the finance team to see when we get to the milestones in which we're comfortable releasing. On the NHTSA question, Lars, do you want to take that?
Lars Moravy :
Sure. I mean, as I said earlier, we always corroborate fully with NHTSA and other regulatory bodies in any sort of investigation they may have, particularly related to ADAS systems when they came out with the standing general order in July. We were quick to respond to that and one of the first and only companies capable of actually meeting the needs of that report. We continue to send that information to them as required, weekly and as it occur. And with the additional investigations, and as I said, we meet that with great sincerity and we'll work through them one by one to make sure that all the facts come out and NHTSA's well informed about our strategies for both active safety in this case, but also passive safety. As you guys may know, we released updates to our airbag and restraint system last week to Model Y using our fleet data. We worked closely with NHTSA on that and they were fully in a loop before we did it. So, I think these kinds of things will continue to happen in the new regulatory space as Zach discussed, as we move towards a software-based vehicle and we're happy to be part of that journey.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. And the next question comes from Trip Chowdhry.
Trip Chowdhry:
Thank you. Very good quarter. I had two quick questions. First is regarding the two upcoming factories in Berlin and Austin. Who are the 2 factories different from each other, maybe in the layout, design, assembly lines? And the second question is related to Cybertruck. Who is the supply looking at? If you look at the exoskeleton steel, is the supply for that material sufficient for immediate ramp up, I'll say in 23-24 time for Cybertruck? That's all for me.
Lars Moravy :
Yes. Sure. So obviously, as we've noted in the past, we developed our own stainless-steel grade for the exterior Cybertruck to meet both the durability in course of requirements required for an automotive world. With this raw material and others, as Drew mentioned, we continue to look at multiple sources. We have made some early sourcing decisions in that but I think we'll keep that one internal and we've already began the first casting in of that. Rolling stainless isn't so different from rolling any other materials. It's about how hard the rollers are to get to that hardness level. And just like every manufacturing process we put in for every new vehicle, we'll work with our suppliers and vendors to make sure those timelines and supply meet the need and demand of our customers.
Andrew Baglino :
And on the differences between Austin and Berlin, there are some. They're largely associated with the different sort of building architectural choices that were -- happened to occur in collaboration with like local codes and other governing requirements that drives the differences in the architecture between the locations. In general, though, we're trying to progress the manufacturing system as a system and make logical path to find improvements from factory to factory. And in some cases, there was an improvement identified between -- like decisions for one, Austin, the other, Berlin, or vice versa. And so there might be a slightly newer iteration of one part of the factory in one place than the other, but it's all part of like a path forward in the factory that builds the machine -- the machine that builds the machine, sorry.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you very much. And the last question comes from Jed Dorsheimer from Canaccord.
Jed Dorsheimer :
Can you hear me?
Martin Viecha :
Yes, we can hear you.
Jed Dorsheimer :
Hey, thanks for taking my question. So, Brandenburg, I'm just wondering, Zach, if you could estimate the carry costs from a margin perspective. Or I guess in two-parts. So, one, do you -- when do you expect -- do you still expect production coming on in '21? So, a couple of months left in December. And how do you see that margin impact as a function of the carry costs. And I do have a follow-up question.
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Sure. So, it remains our target in both Austin and Berlin to be able to build our first production cars before the end of the year. We've talked about this a bit. The unknown of unknowns, new factories, new vehicle designs, new technologies, new locations, new teams. So, there is quite an execution journey ahead of us, but that remains our target. And all of our plans are oriented around that. We -- for -- we should not expect for us to deliver cars by the end of 2021 from these factories, even if we do produce some. So, homologation, regulatory reasons, and we want to make sure that we build up some number of cars that we're confident in the quality and the customer experience around them. The second thing that I'll say and I mentioned this in my opening remarks, is because of the newness here, it's extremely difficult for us to be precise in what the ramp will look like. And its possible things -- the stars align and things move quickly. It's possible that we're spending the bulk of next year working on ramping these factories. It's just very hard to say, and we'll continue to update you-all to these calls and through other forums. As to how that then impacts our margins, that is also difficult because that is a function of the ramp, which is uncertain. The benefits here, which is different in the ramp of these factories compared to other factories, is if you think about the percentage of our total cost structure in any given quarter that is associated with new ramps, we have the Fremont factory that's running -- generating stable and growing margins there. The same is also true in Shanghai. I expect we'll see some amount of headwind on margin from these ramps. It's just entirely dependent on how quickly we're able to ramp, and what uncertainties come up during the process.
Jed Dorsheimer :
Sure, so margins per car, but I would suspect though, if your carry cost is full rate now, on the -- then as you start producing vehicles, it's going to be a margin lifter from where you're at right now, no?
Zachary Kirkhorn :
We are carrying some amount of costs associated with the factories today. And so, the incremental costs associated with turning the factory is it's not 100% of the factory, if that's what you're getting at in your question.
Jed Dorsheimer :
Yes, that's what I was getting at.
Zachary Kirkhorn :
Yeah. We also actually saw a very similar dynamic to this when we were relaunching Model S earlier in the year. So, when a product starts launching and then cost of goods sold starts to activate, depreciation starts to activate, there's a bit of a movement in the P&L as to where that cost resides. So yeah, seeming to some extent, Brandenburg and Austin costs are already flowing through our P&L, but we still need to continue staffing and ramping, incurring all the operating costs associated with the factory that we're not spending right now.
Martin Viecha :
Fantastic. Thank you very much, everyone, for all your questions. And we'll see you again in three months. Thank you very much and goodbye.
Operator:
Good day and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Tesla Second Quarter 2021 Financial results and Q&A webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speakers' presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. [Operator instructions] Please, be advised that today's conference is being recorded. [Operator instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And good afternoon, everyone. And welcome to Tesla's Second Quarter 2021, Q&A Webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn, and a number of other executives. Our Q2 results were announced at about 1 PM Pacific Time, in the update deck we published the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make Forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events and results could differ materially, due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks, Elon?
Elon Musk:
Sure. To recap, Q2 2021 was the record quarter on many levels. We achieved record production, deliveries and surpassed over a $1billion in GAAP net income for the first time in Tesla history. I'd really like to congratulate every one at Tesla for the amazing job. This is really an incredible milestone. It also seems that public sentiment towards EVs is at an inflection point. And at this point, I think almost everyone agrees that electric vehicles are the only way forward. Regarding supply chain, while we're making cars at full speed, the global chip shortage situation remains quite serious. For the rest of this year, our growth rate will be determined by the slowest part in our supply chain which is a -- there's a wide range of chips that are at various times the slowest part in the supply chain. I mean, it's worth noting that if we had everything else, if we had vast numbers of vehicles themselves, we would not yet be able to make them, everything except the chips, we wouldn't be able to make them. The chip supply is fundamentally becoming a factor on our output. It is difficult for us to say how long this will last because we don't have -- this is out of our control, essentially. It does seem like it's getting better, but it's hard to predict. In fact, even achieving the output that we did achieve, was only due to an immense effort from people within Tesla. We were able to substitute alternative chips. And then, write the firmware in a matter of weeks. It's not just a matter of swapping out a chip. You also have to rewrite the software. It was an incredibly intense effort of finding new chips, writing new firmware, integrating with the vehicle and testing in order to maintain production. And I'd also like to thank our suppliers, who work with us. And there have been many calls, midnight, 1:00 AM, just to deal with suppliers in resolving a lot of the shortages, so thanks very much to our suppliers. Let's see. In terms of FSD subscription, we were able to launch a Full Self Driving subscription last month. And we expect it to build slowly. But then gather a lot of momentum over time. Obviously, we need to have the Full Self-Driving [Indiscernible] widely available for it really to take off at high rates, and we're making a lot of progress there. So yes, I think FSD subscription will be a significant factor probably next year. Regards to Giga Texas and Giga Berlin, we're actually doing this earnings call from Giga Texas. We're in the factory right now, doing this earnings call. And the team has made incredible progress here. You can see the pictures online, and see that there was basically nothing a year ago. And this large, mostly complete, large factory, a year later. So really great work by the Giga Texas team. And then also great work in Berlin, out in Brandenburg, with the team there. We expect to be producing the new design of the Model Y in both factories in limited production later this year. It's always like it's not -- it's hard to explain to peaople who have not been through the agony of a manufacturing ramp. Like why can't you just turn it on and make 5,000 a week. This is -- it is so hard to do manufacturing, it is so hard to do production. To the best approximation, there are 10,000 unique parts and processes that have to work. And the greater growth of production goes as fast as the least lucky and dumbest of those 10,000 things. And a bunch of them are not even in our control, so it's insanely difficult. I'm fond of saying that prototypes are easy and production is hard. And arguably, the really remarkable thing that Tesla has done is not to make an electric car or to be a car startup because there have been hundreds of car startups in the U.S. and outside the U.S. so the thing that's remarkable is that Tesla didn't go bankrupt in reaching volume production. That's the amazing part, because everyone else did. Because they all thought the prototype or the idea was the hard part and it is not; it is trivial by comparison with actual production. It's always worth noting, that of all the American car companies, there are only two that have not gone bankrupt, and that is Ford and Tesla. The seeds of defeat are sown on the day of victory. And we must be careful that we do not do that. They're often -- if you look at history, so often that the [Caesars] (ph) beat us on the day of victory. We will endeavor not to make that the case at Tesla. Let's see, the Model Ys in Texas, and made in Texas and Berlin, will look very much like the Model Ys we currently make, but there are substantial improvements in the difficulty of manufacturing. So for example, the Model Y made here and in Berlin will have a cast front body and a cast rear body. Whereas the one in California has a cast rear body but not a cast front body. We're also aiming to do a structural pack with 4680 cells, which is a mass reduction and a cost reduction. But we're not counting on that as the only way to make things work. We have some backup plan with a non-structural pack and 2170s, essentially. So at scale production, we obviously want to be using 4680s and a structural pack. From a physics standpoint, this is the best architecture, and from an economic standpoint, it is the lowest cost way to go, so the lightest, lowest cost. But there's a lot of new technology there so it's difficult to predict with precision, when does it work and when you reach scale production. And Drew is going to talk a bit more about the 4680 productions. We are making great progress on the 4680 cells, but there is a tremendous amount of innovation that we're packing into that 4680 cell. And so it's not simply a minor improvement on state-of-the-art. There are, and we went through this on the battery cell day, really dozens of -- half a dozen major improvements and dozens of small improvements. So I think it will be great. But it's simple to say when the last of the technical challenges will be solved. So in conclusion, our team continues to make huge efforts to make our factories run at full speed, which is very difficult. We have had some factory shutdowns due to parts shortages. And we hope those will be relieved in the coming weeks and months. And we're making great progress on Full Self-Driving. Some of the progress is not easy to see because it's at the foundational software level. And so it's been sort of a two steps forward, one step back situation. But over time, should do two steps forward, one step back, and keep going, you do move forward. I'm highly confident that the cars will be capable of Full Self-Driving. If they have a Full Self-Driving computer and the cameras, I'm confident that they will be able to drive themselves with the safety levels substantially greater than that of the average person. Once again, thanks to all of our employees, for making this a breakthrough year for Tesla and an incredible quarter. Thanks guys.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And we have some follow-up remarks from Zachary Kirkhorn.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, thanks Martin. And thanks, Elon. Just to reiterate, Q2 was a great quarter for the Tesla team, with a strong improvement across the business. In particular, auto gross profit and margin, excluding credits, increased substantially. This was primarily driven by better cost optimization across our factories, good execution against our cost reduction plans, as well as increases in production and delivery volumes. There was some benefit from pricing actions, mostly in North America, however, it was small in the context of the other contributors. Note that the Model S and X program was at a slight loss for the quarter due to the relatively low volume. And supply chain challenges, including expedites, continue to provide cost headwinds. Additionally, it's encouraging to see the progress made on profitability within our energy and services and other businesses. While there's some benefit to looking at our progress quarter-over-quarter, I find it more helpful to look at progress over a slightly long-term horizon. Over the last two years, our vehicle delivery volumes have more than doubled. This volume increase was made possible by a steady decrease in ASPs of more than 10%, driven by a roadmap to increase affordability and shifting mix towards our more affordable vehicles. Yet over that same period of time, our auto gross margin, excluding credit, has increased nearly 10 percentage points to our highest yet since the introduction of Model 3. This is only possible because our average cost per vehicle has reduced by more than the reduction in average price. This is a remarkable achievement in the context of the volume growth and ASP reduction as mentioned and a testament to the hard work by the Tesla team. Additionally, OpEx as a percentage of revenue has declined, and in particular SG&A, representing the work we've done to become more efficient as we scale the Company while still making the required R&D investments to support our future. As a result, our GAAP Operating margins have risen from negative to double-digit in line with what we have guided. By managing our overhead costs and driving higher volumes, our P&L is benefiting from the marginal profitability of each incremental unit, or said differently, we are recognizing the benefits of scale and improved fixed cost absorption. With strong operating cash flows and cash balance, we are putting that cash to use. Capex continues to tick up, primarily driven by capacity investments in Austin, Berlin, and Shanghai. Additionally, each quarter we are using our cash to retire legacy debt, which was taken on at a time when interest rates and Company [growth] (ph) were much higher than in today's environment. As I've mentioned before, our 2021 volumes will skew towards the second half of the year as we push for continued sequential increases in volume. Despite the great work so far, managing the instability of the supply chain, these challenges remain and unfortunately increasing in pain with the higher volume. As we work through the uncertainty, we want to ensure we do our best to manage customer wait time, as well as the impact these interruptions have on our employees and costs. And as Elon mentioned, volume growth will be determined by part availability as we have the factory capacity ready, and now we're in a strong demand position. I'm excited to see the progress made by the Tesla team, as we continue building the business and strengthening our financials. Thank you very much.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much, Zach. And now let's go through the retail investor questions on say.com. The first question from Robert M. is, Tesla 's website still says Cybertruck production is expected to begin in late 2021. Can Tesla share more details on the current status of the Cybertruck and confirm if production is still --?
Elon Musk:
That's okay.
Martin Viecha:
Lars, do you want to --
Lars Moravy:
Sorry, we cut out there for a second. Yeah, the Cybertruck is currently in its alpha stages. We finished basic engineering the architecture of the vehicle. With the Cybertruck, we're redefining how a vehicle is to be made. As Elon said, it carries much of the structural pack and large casting designs of the Model Y being built in Berlin and Austin. Obviously those take priority over the Cybertruck, but we are moving into the beta phases of Cybertruck later this year, and we will be looking to ramp that in production, and take it to Texas after Model Y is up and going.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, it's just worth reemphasizing that the extraordinary difficulty of ramping production of large manufactured items. At the risk of being repetitive, it is essentially easy to make prototypes, or handbook small volume production. But anything produced at a high-volume, which is really what's relevant here is, it's going to move as fast as the slowest of the say rough order magnitude 10,000 unique parts and processes. And so you can have 9,999, but when just one is missing -- we we're missing, for example, like a big struggle this quarter, was the module that controls the airbags and the seatbelts. And obviously you cannot ship a car without those. That limited our production severely worldwide, in Shanghai and at Fremont. It wouldn't have mattered if we had 17 different car models because we -- they won't need the airbag module so it's just irrelevant. In order for Cybertruck and semi to scale to volume that's meaningful for customer deliveries, we've got to solve the chip shortage working with our suppliers. People just want to say, why don't you just build a chip fab? Well, okay that would take us -- even moving like lightning, 12 to 18 months. So it's not like you can just whip out a chip fab. This is like, yah let's make the chip fab. So some of these things are -- yeah, anyway, it is quite a trial feeling with all of the constraints of scaling a large manufactured object. I think it may be the case that Tesla is scaling. I think we might be the fastest in history ever for scaling a large manufactured object. Maybe the Model T would have been comparable back in the day, of the Ford Model T. Probably internet knows the answer, but I think we may be scaling large-manufactured object at the fastest rate in history, or I would like to know who did it faster, so we can learn from them. It's worth just noting that in the grand scheme of things, it's not bad. So, yeah, so the Cybertruck –and semi actually both are heavy uses of cell capacity so we've got to make sure we have the cell capacity for those 2 vehicles or it's kind of pointless. We can make a small number of vehicles, but the effect of cost if you make a small number of vehicles is the same. Like they would literally cost $1,000,000 a piece or more. There's a reason why you do things in volume production, which is to get the economies of scale and get the cost down. So we are looking at a pretty massive increase in cell availability next year. But it's not like in January 1, it comes through -- it ramps up through the course of next year. But even without Tesla cell production, with our suppliers, we'll be able to deliver about twice as much cell output in next year as this year. Drew, do you want to talk more about that?
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah given concerns over cell's bottlenecking growth, our target is to grow cell supply ahead of the 50% year-on-year growth targets of the vehicle business, and also enable increased energy storage deployments.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Andrew Baglino:
So yeah, our cell suppliers are tracking to double their production in 2022.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. It's worth [Indiscernible], like if you have a target of a certain number, that doesn't mean it happens like as sure as night follows day. It's a target. So if there is some calamity in the world, that interrupts the supply chain, then it will be less. But these contracts that we have with cell suppliers call for roughly a doubling of cell supply to Tesla in 2022. And we have to juggle these exponential -- it's a whole bunch of exponential graphs overlaying on top of each other. And small changes in where you are on the x-axis of time can quite substantially change the area under the curve. So what we're thinking of doing, depending on -- is basically overshooting on cell supply for vehicles, and then as we have say excess cell supply in one month or another, then routing that so outputs to the Megapack and Powerwall. Well, by the same token, if we're prioritizing vehicle production, if there's a shortage of cell upward from some reason then we will throttle down Megapack and Powerwall production. So that it could be something's got to give, basically.
Andrew Baglino:
Or if there is a disruption in the vehicle production.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Andrew Baglino:
And we have an outlet for cell capacity.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. There is a tremendous amount of inertia in the supply chain. So if we said to the supplier, we want you to double cell output. Well, even doing that in a year, it's very difficult. And then that system has a tremendous amount of momentum. It is like a [plethora] (ph) of supertankers. It's insane.
Andrew Baglino:
Speaking of which, from a raw materials perspective, we offer long-term contracts to secure our supply chain to also enable this growth. We're not just looking at the suppliers, but upstream from there.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Andrew Baglino:
Which is more [Indiscernible].
Elon Musk:
Yes. As mentioned, things will move as fast as the slowest part in the entire supply chain, which goes all the way back to raw materials, Lithium and Nickel and that kind of thing. And there's somehow a misconception that Tesla uses a lot of Cobalt, but we actually don't. Apple uses I think almost 100% Cobalt in their batteries in cellphones and laptops. But Tesla uses no Cobalt in our iron phosphate [packs] (ph), and almost none in the nickel-based chemistries. On a weighted average basis, we might use 2% Cobalt compared to say Apple's 100% Cobalt. Anyway, it's really just not a pack that we expect to basically have 0 cobalt in the future. I do -- I think probably there is a long-term shift more in the direction of iron-based, lithium-ion cells, rather, over nickel. As the energy density of iron [Indiscernible] iron phosphate, might as well support iron phosphates taken for granted. But iron-based cells, lithium-ion cells, and nickel-based lithium-ion cells. I think probably we'll see a shift -- my guess is probably to 2/3 iron, 1/3 nickel or something on that order. And this is actually good because there's plenty of iron in the world. There's an insane amount of iron, but Nickel is -- there's much less Nickel, and there's way less Cobalt. So it is good for relieving the long-term scaling to move to iron-based cells, mostly. And I think long-term, possibly all -- there's a good chance that all stationary storage that is Powerwall and Megapack, move to iron. This is most likely the case, since you do not need to transport it, and there's lesser volume [Indiscernible] constraint with stationary storage. So then nickel would be for -- would be really for long range road transports, ships, and aircraft, and that kind of thing.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the second question from retail, which is, Elon has said that Tesla will be opening up the Supercharger network to other Evs later this year. Can you share some more details on how this will be structured, will this be at select brands, or will they contribute to the growth of this network?
Elon Musk:
Yes. We're currently thinking it's a real simple thing where you just download the Tesla app and you go to Supercharger. And you just indicate which stall you're in. You plug in your car, even if it's not Tesla. And then you just access the app and say, turn on this stall that I'm in for how much electricity. And this should basically work with almost any manufacturer's cars. There will be time constraints. If the charge rate is super slow, then somebody will be charged more because the biggest constraint at the Supercharger is time, how occupied is the stall. And we'll also be smarter with how we charge for electricity at the Supercharger, so rush hour charging will be more expensive than what car is charging because there are times when the Superchargers are empty and times when they're jam packed. And so it makes sense to have some time-based discrimination.
Martin Viecha:
Yeah. We've been doing that and it's been working and people are responding. It helps with utilization.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, exactly. In Europe and China and most parts of the world, it's the same connector for everyone, so this is a fairly easy thing to do. We developed our own connector, which, in my opinion is actually the best connector, it's small and light and looks good; up to our standard. So we developed our own connector, which, in my opinion, it's actually the best connector. It's small and light and looks good. So an adapter is needed to work for EVs in North America. But people could buy this adapter. And we anticipate having it available at the Superchargers as well if people don't sort of steal them or something.
Andrew Baglino:
We have a good solution to that.
Elon Musk:
Okay. So that's constraint on [Indiscernible] thing. That's basically a vestige of history. But I think we do want to emphasize that it is our goal, to support the advent of sustainable energy, it is not to create a wolf garden and use that to bludgeon our competitors, which is sometimes used by some companies.
Andrew Baglino:
I think it's also important to comment that increasing the utilization of the network actually reduces our costs, which allows us to lower charging prices for our customers and make the network more profitable, allows us to grow the network faster. That's the good thing there. And then -- and no matter what, we're going to continue to aggressively expand the network capacity, increasing charging speeds, improving the trip planning tools to protect against site congestion using dynamic pricing, as Elon mentioned.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Andrew Baglino:
And just continuing to focus on minimum wait time for all customers.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Obviously, in order for this to be -- for the Supercharger to be useful to other car companies' cars, we need to grow the network faster than we're growing vehicle output, which is not easy. We're growing vehicle output at a hell of a rate. So Superchargers need to grow faster than vehicle output. This is a lot of work for the Superchargers team, but it is only useful in the grand scheme of things. Just only useful to the public if we're able to grow faster than Tesla vehicle output. That is our goal.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And the third question is, Elon said 4680 cells aren't reliable enough for vehicles. Is this referring to cycle life degradation, or something else? Please update us on progress of 4680s and what is still needs to be done to make them reliable enough for vehicles.
Elon Musk:
Really -- this is not -- we'll definitely make the 4680 reliable enough for vehicles, and we, I think, are at the point where, in limited volume, it is reliable enough for vehicles.
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah.
Elon Musk:
Again, going back to limited production is easier, prototype production is easy but high-volume production is hard. There are a number of challenges in transitioning from a small scale production to a large volume production. And not to get too much into the reason of things, but right now, we have a challenge with basically what's called calendaring, or basically squashing the cathode, with material to a particular height. So it just goes through these rollers and gets squashed like pizza dough, basically. And -- but very hard pizza dough. And the -- it's causing -- it's denting the calendar rolls. This is not something that happened when the calendar rolls were smaller, but it is happening when the calendar rolls are bigger. So it's just like -- we were like, okay, we weren't expecting that.
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah. It's not like a science problem, it's an engineering problem.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Andrew Baglino:
It's not a question of if, it's a question of when.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Andrew Baglino:
And the team is a 100% focused on resolving these limiting processes as quickly as possible.
Elon Musk:
Exactly.
Andrew Baglino:
On the reliability side, as Elon mentioned, we have successfully validated performance and the lifetime durability of the 4680 cells produced in Kato, and we're continuing ongoing verification of that reliability. We're actually accruing over 1 million equivalent miles on our cells that we produce every month. In our testing activities, the focus on that is very clear; we want high-quality cells for all of our customers. And yeah, we're just focused on the unlucky limiting steps in the facility. And with the engineers focused on those few steps remaining, we're going to break through as fast as possible.
Elon Musk:
Meantime, we have a massive amount of equipment on order and arriving, for the high-volume cell production in Austin and Berlin. But obviously, given what we've learned with the pilot plant, which is in Fremont. which is really quite a big plant by most standards. We will have to modify a bunch of that equipment, so it won't be able to start immediately. But it seems like, correct me if I'm wrong, but we think, most likely, we will hit an annualized rate of a 100 GWh a year, sometime next year.
Andrew Baglino:
We'll have all the equipment installed to accomplish 100 gigawatt hours, and it's possible that by the end of the year, we will be at an annualized rate of 100 gigawatt hours by the end of the year.
Elon Musk:
My guess is more likely than not, above 50% of reaching 100 gigawatt hours a year by the end of next year on the annualized rate, something like that. It could shift by a little bit, but as Drew mentioned, nothing fundamental, just a lot of work.
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah. And even to the large roller question, Elon, right. Like on the anode side, the large rollers work great, no concerns. And so we're just learning as we go. And the nice thing about having that facility on a fast-track like we had it, and we talked about it at Battery Day, was really de-risking the big factories here. And, yes, we've done and we've learned a lot. And with each successive iteration, the ramp up and the equipment installation will be faster and more stiff.
Martin Viecha:
Alright, thank you very much. And the last question from retail is from Emmett. Can Elon do an interview with one of our YouTube channels once or twice a year? I would nominate David Lee on Investing or Rob Maurer's Tesla Daily channels as first possible candidates.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I guess that I'll do an interview. I mean [Indiscernibl]. If I'm doing interviews tonight I can't do actual other work. Only so much time in the day. But yeah, I'll do it once. I won't do it annually, but I'll do it once. I think also that this is the Until the last time I'll do earnings calls, but this is the -- I will no longer speak, default, during earnings calls. So obviously I'll have to do the annual shareholder meeting s that, I think going forward, I will most likely not be on earnings calls unless there's something really important that -- that I need to say.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you. And let's go to institutional questions. The first one, and we covered a lot of these already. Can you please update us on timelines for the startup production of Berlin and Austin Model Y, Cybertruck and the Semi. Do you expect the ramp of Cybertruck to be as difficult, as it is a new process?
Elon Musk:
I think Cybertruck ramp will be difficult because it's such new architecture. It's going to be a great product. It might, I think be our best product ever. But there's a lot of fundamentally new design ideas in the Cybertruck. Nobody's ever really made a car like this before. A vehicle like this before. So there will probably be challenges because there's so much unexplored territory.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. I think question 2 and question 3, we can skip given we have already addressed it. I'll get to question 4. In 5 years time, how much faster or better could you be at manufacturing capacity expansion using current pace? And what are the biggest issues you need to solve to get to that rate?
Elon Musk:
Well, like I said that I think we might be the fastest growing Company in history for any launched manufactured item. Those who have not actually been involved in manufacturing ramp up just have no idea how painful and difficult it is. It's like you got to eat a lot of glass. And for our manufacturing ramp, it's hard.
Lars Moravy:
Yeah, I mean, I think if you look at the expansion we've done in Shanghai, that factory was built in less than a year and ramped in 5 to 6 months to full volume.
Elon Musk:
[Indiscernible] of that. Took longer than that. It was about a year.
Lars Moravy:
And when you consider cut-and-paste, we've repeated that in Fremont and whatever. But now with Berlin and Austin, we have new factories and new designs? And there's always challenges as you said, Elon, with new designs and ramping that. But I think having teams in 3 locations or 3 continents, will definitely expand our ability and our capacity to grow more lines, rather than just having the one factory in Fremont that we had a year and a half ago.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I mean, for Shanghai, it's an incredible team built the factory in 9 months but it took longer than -- longer than building the factory. It took longer than that to actually reach volume production -- a high volume production. It took about a year. And when you put a factory in a new geography, in order for that factory to be efficient, you have to localize the supply chain. So there's no such thing as cut and paste. It does not exist. And it would obviously be insane to do vehicle production in Europe and send vast numbers of parts from North America. That would be -- that would make the producing in Europe, for example, just crazy. You got to look like the supply chain s have efficiency and then you're moving as fast as your least lucky, least good supplier. Yes. So these supply-chains we go like 3 or 4 layers deep. Frankly, I feel at times that we are inheriting all force majeure of Earth. So if anything goes wrong anywhere on Earth, something happens to mess up the supply chain. Yeah.
Andrew Baglino:
I think the human capital growth though, having factories here, Berlin, Shanghai, Fremont, does a lot to, maybe not exponentially grow, but well, hopefully --
Elon Musk:
We are exponentially growing.
Andrew Baglino:
-- Hopefully maintain that exponential growth.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. It's also -- it takes a while to hire old people and train old people to operate a factory. A factory is like a giant cybernetic collective. And you can't just hire 10,000 people and have them work instantly. It's not possible. I really encourage more people to get involved in manufacturing. I think, especially in the U.S., this has just not been an area where all that many smart people have gone into. I think U.S. has an over-allocation of talent in finance and law. It's both a criticism and a compliment. I'm not saying we shouldn't have people in finance and law, I'm just saying if there might be -- maybe we have too many smart people in those arenas. Me. So --
Andrew Baglino:
Manufacturing is fun.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, manufacturing is great. It's very [Indiscernible], and obviously, you can't have stock unless someone makes it. That's how you get stock. Yeah.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. And let's go to the last investor question. Does Tesla plan to offer more services beyond FSD or high-speed connectivity as part of its subscription bundle going forward? What areas in particular present an opportunity?
Elon Musk:
Yeah, we don't have a lot of ideas on this to be frank. Really, Full Self-Driving is the main thing. Things are obviously headed towards fully autonomous electric vehicle in the future. And I think tells us Tesla is well-positioned and in fact is the leader objectively, in this -- in both of those arenas, electrification and autonomy. It's always [Indiscernible] strike to find analogies, but with other companies, whatever [Indiscernible] Really, the value of a fully electric autonomous fleet is generally gigantic; boggles the mind really. So that will be one of the most valuable things that is ever done in the history of civilization.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And now let's go back to Analyst Q&A, please.
Operator:
[Operator instructions] In interest of time, we ask that you please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Our first question comes from Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer. Your line is open.
Colin Rusch:
Thanks so much guys. Can you speak to the attach ed rates for FSD so far and where you're targeting in terms of the subscription levels?
Elon Musk:
Yeah, it's not worth commenting on right now, it's not meaningful. We really need Full Self-Driving, at least the Beta to be widely available so anyone who wants it can get it. Otherwise, it'll be pointless to read anything into where things are right now.
Colin Rusch:
And then just the follow-up there is about the kin to the regulatory environment, keeping up with the technology. Are you seeing meaningful evolution in terms of the regulators really understanding the technology and beginning to set some standards here sometime in the near-term?
Elon Musk:
At least in the U.S. we don't see regulation as the fundamental limiter. We've obviously got to make it work and then demonstrate that the reliability is significantly in excess of the average human driver for it to be allowed -- use it without paying attention to the road. But I think we have a massive fleet. It will be, I think, straightforward to make the arguments on statistical grounds, just based on the number of interventions, especially in events that would result in a crash. At scale, it will have billions of miles of travel to be able to show that it is the safety of the car with Autopilot on is a 100% or 200% or more safer than the average human driver. At that point, I think would be unconscionable to not to allow autopilot because the car just becomes way less safe. It would be like "shake the elevator" analogy. Back in the day, we used to have elevator operators with a big switch that -- and they were to operate the elevator and move between floors. But they get tired or maybe drunk or something or distracted and every now and again, somebody would be kind of sheared in half between floors. That's kind of the situation we have with cars. Autonomy will become so safe that it will be unsafe to manually operate the car relatively speaking. And today [Indiscernible] just get in an elevator where we press the button for which floor we want and it just takes us there safely. And it would require alarming if those elevators were operated by a person with a giant switch. That's how we it would be with cars.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Next question comes from Rod Lache with Wolfe Research. Your line is open.
Rod Lache:
Hi everybody. Your cost of goods sold per vehicle's already down to the mid $37,000 range in the quarter, it's down $5,000 year-over-year, despite some of the inefficiencies that you talked about. And I know that a lot is going to change from here just given how mix is going to evolve. But if you're successful on the structural pack and front and rear castings in the launch of the 4680 cell, can you just maybe give us a sense of what a successful outcome would look like maybe a year from now. Obviously a lot has to go right. But just any kind of broad framework for us to think about.
Elon Musk:
Yes, it's really difficult for us to make specific predictions is very difficult. I think we felt confident of, say at least a few percent growth year-over-year next year. And maybe it's a 100%, but that's -- we need a lot of crystal balls to figure out exactly what it's going to be. And it is literally impossible to make a specific prediction. But at least 50, maybe a 100, something like that.
Rod Lache:
Okay. And maybe just separately from this, can you just clarify what the status is of some of the advances in battery manufacturing, things like dry cathode mixing that you talked about on Battery Day? What's the timeline? How are those evolving?
Andrew Baglino:
We commented on it today, already actually, but in the facility at Kato, over 90% of the processes have demonstrated rate there, but we are limited by the unlucky few that have not. And that's what we're working on. One of them that Elon mentioned was running the full-scale [Indiscernible] calendar. We're working through some improvements that we need to make to that equipment and to the actual raw material itself to not have those limitations. But again, it's an engineering problem. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when. On the mixing side, we haven't actually really had any challenges specific to your question. Fundamentally, we're still happy with the dry process direction, in terms of the factory footprint, complexity, utility, consumption, space, and overall complexities and implication.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Andrew Baglino:
And the cost associated with that.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. We're going to have programs as dry cathode, I mean, I don't know, maybe it's like 10 or 15% of the cost of equipment or something like that? I don't know, 20% maybe?
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah. 10%.
Elon Musk:
So it's like -- just like people don't think like this is like the Messiah or something, wet versus dry reduces. To dry is like 10% less cost than wet. So it's not 10% slow, nothing to sneeze at, especially if you're making hundreds of GWh a year. But it's not the Messiah, basically.
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. We can go to the next question, please.
Operator:
The next question comes from Pierre Ferragu with New Street Research. Your line is open.
Pierre Ferragu:
Thanks very much for taking my question. I have another question, actually, on batteries, but on a slightly different angle. I was wondering how you're looking at your sourcing strategy for the 4680. You've talked a lot about all the work you're doing to develop your in-house production. But what about asking other battery manufacturers to do 4680 cell with their own technology? Maybe less innovation than what you guys are lining up internally, and I was wondering if the first 4680 cells that we see on the road will definitely come from Tesla's own manufacturing lines, or whether it could be coming actually from outside suppliers as well. And I have a quick follow-up.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. We are in fact working with our existing suppliers to produce 4680 format cells. And this is just a guess right now. But I see us consolidating around a 4680 nickel-based structural pack and -- for long-range vehicles, and then not necessarily a 4680 format, but some other format for iron-based cells. So right now, we kind of have the Baskin Robbins of batteries situation, where there's so many formats and so many chemistries, that it's like we've got like 36 flavors of battery at this point. This is just -- this results in an engineering drag coefficient where each variants of cell chemistry and format requires as to an amount of engineering to maintain it and troubleshoot and this inhibits our forward progress. So it is going to be important to consolidate to maybe -- ideally 2, 4 factors, maybe 3, but ideally 2. And then just 1 nickel chemistry and 1 iron chemistry and -- so we don't have to troubleshoot so many different variants.
Andrew Baglino:
Yeah, and there is an end where we are engaging with the suppliers that we've had good partnerships with on 4680 designs to enable that duplication; so far so good. They are working on -- they're bringing their core competencies to bear on that. We're not mandating like what's going on inside, but it's been a good collaboration.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. We do expect to see significant increases in supply from our existing suppliers in addition to the cells that Tesla's making. So it's both. Sometimes I get questions from our cell suppliers with like, are we going to make all the cells ourselves? We're like, no, please make as many as you possibly can and supply them to us. We have a significant unmet demand in stationery storage. Megapack is basically sold out through the end of next year, I believe.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
We have a massive backlog in Powerwall demand that man to Powerwall versus production is an insane mismatch. Now part of that problem is also the semiconductor issue. So we used a lot of the same chips in the Powerwall as you do in a car, so it's like, which one do want to make? Cars or Powerwalls? So we need to make cars, so that will -- Powerwall production has been reduced. But as the semiconductor shortage is alleviated, then we can massively we ramp up Powerwall production. I think we have a chance of hitting an annualized rate of a million units of Powerwall next year, maybe towards on the order of 20,000 a week. But again, dependent on cell supply and semiconductors. But in terms of demand, I think there's probably demand for in excess of 1 million Powerwalls per year. And actually just a vast amounts of the Megapacks for utilities as well as transitions to a sustainable energy production. Solar and wind are intermittent and by their nature really need battery packs in order to provide a steady flow of electricity. And when you look at all the utilities in the world, this is a vast amount of batteries that are needed. That's why in the long-term we really think -- sort of combined Tesla and suppliers need to produce at least 1,000 GWh a year, and maybe 2,000 GWh a year.
Pierre Ferragu:
Okay. Great. Thank you. And I have a quick question. I know, Elon, you don't think it's meaningful today, but I'd be curious to know if you have any thoughts about when you announced the new pricing on the FSD ring from 10,000 and thrown to 199 without looking. I'd be curious to understand how it's affected behavior in issues, so like a massive effect effect, affecting the service. And I'm not thinking about people looking at it as a message, but more to try the most advanced version of autopilots, and to try it. In the first days, even on the pricing, have you seen a very significant spike in the tech rate? And can you give us a sense of how big it was?
Elon Musk:
Okay. What you are asking, like if the FSD tech rate is too expensive and that's why we're doing subscription? Or -- I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly.
Pierre Ferragu:
No, my question is from the time you announced the subscription at $199 the amounts, how much did like the take rate increase like the [Indiscernible] people who basically took the subscription about the new car. That is how it was when they had to pay 10 grand up front.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah. This is Zach here. I think we're still early in understanding how FSD subscription will unfold. But a couple of data points here. We took a look at our backlog to see of customers in our backlog who have ordered FSD, did they cancel presumably to go to subscription after they take delivery? And the level of cancellations there, was there not seeing cannibalization there? it's possible that that changes, but that was also part of our pricing strategy at $99 and 199.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I mean, we --
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Also part of our pricing strategy, at $99 and $199.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. I mean, any given price is going to be wrong, so we'll just adjust it over time as we see the value proposition makes sense to people. So we're just really -- I'm not thinking about this a lot right now. We need to make Full Self-Driving work in order for it to be a compelling value proposition. Otherwise, people are betting on the future. Like right now, does it makes sense for somebody to do FSD subscription? I think it's debatable. But once we have Full Self-Driving widely deployed, then the value proposition will be clear. And at that point, I think basically everyone will use it or it could be rare -- a rare individual who doesn't.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much for your help. And I think that's all the time we have for today. Thanks for all your questions and we'll speak to you again in 3 months time. Have a good day, everyone.
Elon Musk:
All right. Thank you.
Operator:
This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for standing by, and welcome to the Tesla First Quarter 2021 Results and Q&A Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. Please be advised that today’s conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand the conference over to your speaker today, Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Carmen, and good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Tesla’s first quarter 2021 Q&A webcast. I am joined today by Elon Musk; Zachary Kirkhorn, and a number of other executives. Our Q1 results were announced at about 1 p.m. Pacific Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today’s call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Great. Thank you. So Q1 2021 was a record quarter on many levels. Tesla achieved record production, deliveries and surpassed $1 billion in non-GAAP net income for the first time. We have seen a real shift in customer perception of electric vehicles and our demand is the best we have ever seen. So this is – if you talk about, we are used to seeing a reduction in demand in the first quarter and we saw an increase in demand that exceeded the normal seasonal reduction in demand in Q1. So Model 3 became the best-selling mid-sized premier sedan in the world. In fact, I should say, the best-selling luxury sedan of any kind in the world. The BMW 3 Series was for the longest time best-selling premium sedan. It’s been exceeded by the Tesla Model 3, and this is only three-and-a half years into production and with just two factories. For Model 3 to be out selling its combustion engine competitors, I think, this is quite remarkable. In the past couple of quarters, we delivered roughly $0.25 million Model 3s, so -- which translates in an annualized rate of $0.5 million per year. When it comes to Model Y, we think Model Y will be the best-selling car or vehicle of any kind in the world, and probably, next year. So I am not 100% certain next year, but I think it’s quite likely. I’d say more likely than not that in 2022 Model Y is the best-selling car or truck of any kind in the world. Then with regard to Full Self-Driving, Full Self-Driving beta continues to make great progress. This is definitely one of the -- I think, one of the hardest technical problems that exists, that has maybe ever existed. And really, in order to solve it, we basically need to solve a pretty significant part of artificial intelligence, simply real-world artificial intelligence. And that sort of AI, the neural net needs to be compressed into a fairly small computer, a very efficient computer that was designed, but nonetheless, a small computer that’s using on the order of 70 watts or 80 watts. So this is a much harder problem than if you were to use, say, 10,000 computers in a server room or something like that. This has got to fit into a smaller screen. And this -- I think with the elimination of radar, we are finally getting rid of one of the last questions. Radar was really -- it was making up for some of the shortfalls of vision, but this is not good. You actually just need vision to work. And when it works, it works better than the best human because it’s like having eight cameras. It’s like having eyes in the back of your head, beside your head and has three eyes of different focal distances looking forward. This is -- yes -- and processing it at a speed that is superhuman. There’s no question in my mind that with a pure vision solution, we can make a car that is dramatically safer than the average person. So, but this is a hard problem because we are actually solving something quite fundamental about artificial intelligence, where we basically have to solve real-world vision AI. And we’re - so - and the key to solving this is also having some massive dataset. So, just having well over a million cars on the road that are collecting data from very sort of corner-case rare situations, sort of like data so many weird things in the world like a truck carrying a truck or a car with a -- one example is a car as an actual example, a car with a kayak on the roof where the kayak has a little weight dangling from the front of the kayak in front of the car, and yet the car must ignore this and just look at the road. So it’s really quite tricky. But I am highly confident that we will get this done. So, yes, this quarter I think we will continue to see that a little bit in Q2 and Q3. So Q1 was -- had some of the most difficult supply chain challenges that we have ever experienced in the life of Tesla and same difficulties with the supply chain, with parts -- over the whole range of parts. Obviously, people have heard about the chip shortage. This is a huge problem. But then in addition to that, for example, we had quite a difficulty scaling, driving our production in China, because we are unable to get critical engineers there because of COVID quarantine restrictions. So - which meant that Tesla worldwide was dependent on drive units made at our factory in Nevada, Giga Nevada. So that was a very challenging situation. I think we are mostly out of that particular problem. But that’s just - those were just two of many challenges. So the team has really done an incredible job of dealing with really severe supply chain shortages. So with respect to Model S and X, there were more challenges than expected in developing the Plaid Model S or what we call the Paladium program, which is the new version of Model S and X, which has a revised interior and new battery pack and new drive units and new internal electronics and has, for example, a PlayStation 5 level infotainment system. There’s just a lot of issues encountered, ensuring that the new factory was as also we’re saying was quite hard, because [inaudible] in a smaller pace. So it took quite a bit of development to ensure that the battery of the new S/X is safe. Then, we are trying to get [Audio Gap] in the cars slowly for the past few months. But we are just stacking them up in the yard and just making refinements to the cars that we have built. But we do expect to ramp Model S production and start delivering them probably next month. So -- and then to be in sort of fairly high-volume production for the S in Q3 and to start delivering the Model X in Q3 as well. So I think as we ramp up, I think, probably the demand for the new S/X will be quite high. So surely, it’s going to be a question of ramping supply chain and internal production processes. So probably, we are -- like we are going to aim to produce over 2,000 S/X per week, perhaps, if we get lucky, upwards of 2,400 or 2,500. This again is contingent on global supply chain issues, which just a lot of factors outside of our control here. But I do think we -- this will get solve, it’s just a matter of time, and then we will be doing well over 2,000 S/X per week. It actually costs us less to produce, a little bit less to produce. But it is a superior product. So in conclusion, there’s a lot to be excited about in 2021 and 2022. We are building factories as quickly as we can. Both Texas and Berlin are progressing well and we expect to have initial limited production from those factories this year and volume production from Texas and Berlin next year. And at this time, we will continue to ramp production of Model Y in three months in Shanghai. In the background, we are continuing work -- development work on the Semi, Cybertruck, on the Roadster and other products. Thanks to everyone at Tesla who have made this year a huge success. Now on to questions.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. We have some remarks from Zachary Kirkhorn as well.
Elon Musk:
Okay.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah. Thanks, Martin. Thanks, Elon. So congratulations to the Tesla team on breaking multiple records in the first quarter of 2021, as Elon had mentioned, which is typically the most difficult of the year for many reasons. To summarize the quarter, I think, it’s best understood by three key items. First, we successfully launched and began the ramp of Model Y in Shanghai, achieving positive gross margin in the first quarter of production and receiving a great reception from the market. Second, as Elon mentioned, although we began the production process for the Model S during the quarter, we had not yet begun customer deliveries. The reduction in Model S and X deliveries from Q4 to Q1 were a meaningful headwind to free cash flows and profit generation. For example, we incurred an estimated $200 million of direct P&L impact relating to this program in Q1, the majority of which is reflected in COGS and that’s before even considering the impact of lost revenue and profits as a result of the transition. And as Elon mentioned, we expect the first deliveries to begin shortly. Third, as we continue to work through the instability of the global supply chain, particularly around semiconductors and port capacities. While the Tesla team in partnership with our suppliers did tremendous work keeping our factories running, we did experience high expedite costs in the quarter and they were also higher than they were in Q4, with some minor interruptions to production over the course of the quarter. We believe that this landscape is improving, but it does remain difficult and it’s an evolving situation. If we double click within net income, auto gross margin excluding credits improved sequentially and year-over-year. This is in spite of the costs mentioned for SNX and expedites and a reduction in global ASPs as our cost structure as a company is reducing at an even faster pace. So as we look out over the course of the year, we feel optimistic about our gross margin strength, particularly as some of these headwinds we are experiencing start to be resolved. On Services and other margins, these have recovered and are trending towards profitability, aided by strength in the used car business, operational improvements in service and additional service revenue opportunities that help absorb fixed overheads. On energy gross margins, these remained negative for a second quarter. This was driven by Solar Roof-related ramp costs and winter seasonality in the lease BPA business. We continue to manage through a multi-quarter backlog on Powerwall. We are working as fast as we can to increase production and this will aid in profitability of this business as those volumes increase. On operating expenses, these increased for Q1, which was driven by our investments in technology and growth. In particular for R&D, this includes the structural battery pack and 4680 cells, investments in the new SNX, and our neural net and silicon investments. On the SG&A side, we are setting up infrastructure and support for both China and EMEA in anticipation of volume to come there. And as I have said before, our plans show that we remain on track for sustained industry-leading operating margins. Double clicking on cash flows, we continue to generate positive free cash flows and this was despite the significant working capital headwinds from SNX. Additionally, we are making progress reducing various forms of debt. We also invested $1.5 billion in Bitcoin during the quarter, then trimmed our position by 10%, which contributed to a small gain in our Q1 financials. Taking a step back, we have generated $8 billion in operating cash flows and $4 billion in free cash flows over the past four quarters. As we look forward, our plans remain unchanged for long-term growth of 50% annually and we believe we are on track to exceed that this year as we guided to last quarter. Global demand remains meaningfully higher than production levels, and so we are driving as fast as we can to increase our production rates. As we think about Q2 and Q3, these quarters should largely be driven by execution on SNX, as we have discussed, continued ramp of Model Y in Shanghai and the associated cost reductions of these programs, and we expect profitability and cash generation to evolve over the course of the year in line with those improvements. And then as we get towards the end of the year, our story will pivot towards the launch and ramp of our newest factories in Austin and Berlin. So there’s certainly no shortage of exciting things for us to work on and look forward to. Thank you and we will open it up for questions.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And we will first take a retail questions from, say, our website. The first question is, how is how is Dojo coming along? Could Dojo unlock an AWS-like business line for Tesla over the next few years?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I will jump in here. So with respect to…
Elon Musk:
Sorry about that. My apologies. I was on mute.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Go ahead, Elon.
Elon Musk:
So, yeah, so it’s basically saying that the, like, right now people think of Tesla has -- a lot of people think Tesla is a car company or perhaps an energy company. I think long-term people will think of Tesla as much as an AI robotics company as we are a car company or an energy company. I think we are developing one of the strongest hardware and software AI teams in the world and so we appear to be able to do things with Self-Driving that others cannot. So and if you look at the evolution of what technologies we have developed, we developed them in order to solve the problem of Self-Driving. So we couldn’t find a powerful enough neural net computer, so we designed and built our own. The software out there was really quite primitive for this task and so we built a team from scratch and have been developing what we think is probably the most advanced real-world AI in the world. And then it sort of makes sense that this is kind of what needs to happen because the road system is designed for a neural net computer, our brain. Our brain is a neural net computer. And it’s -- the entire system is designed for vision with a neural net computer, which is because it’s designed for eyes and a brain. And so if you have a system which has very good eyes, you can see in all directions at once and see three focal points forward, it never gets tired. It’s never texting, it has redundancy and its reaction time is super-human. Then it seems pretty obvious that that such a system would achieve an extremely high level of safety, far in excess of the average person. So that’s what we are doing. Then Dojo is kind of the training part of that. So because we have over a million cars and perhaps next year we will have 2 million cars in active use providing vast amounts of video training data that then needs to be digested by a very powerful training system. And currently, we use Tesla training software. We drew up a lot of training software, a lot of labeling software to do -- be able to do surround video labeling, which is quite tricky. This means all eight cameras simultaneously at 36 frames per second per camera labeling video over time. It wasn’t any tool that existed for this. So we developed our own labeling tool. Then taking it a step further, obviously, the Holy Grail is order labeling. So now we are getting quite good at order labeling where the trainers train the training system and then the system order labels the data and the label -- the human laborers just need to look at the labeling to confirm that it is correct and perhaps make edits. And then every time an edit is made, that further trains the system. So that’s kind of like a flywheel that’s just sort of spinning up and really the only way to do this is with vast amounts of video data. So then we need to train this efficiently. So Dojo is really -- it is a supercomputer optimized for neural net training. We think Dojo will be probably in order of magnitude more efficient on, say, show what the exact right metric is, but say per frame of video, we think it will be an order of magnitude more cost efficient in hardware and in energy usage per frame of video compared to a DPU-based solution or compared to the next best solution that we are aware of. So then possibly that could be used by others. It does seem as though over time, I mean, just an observation, I think, I will basically step back that neural net-based computing or AI-based computing is more and more of the compute stack. We are -- conventional computing is called perhaps [inaudible] based computing. It’s still going to be important, it’s still going to be very important, but it will become -- but neural net will become a bigger and bigger portion of compute. So anyway, long story, but I think, probably, others will want to use it too and we will make it available.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let’s go to the second question from retail investors. The recent price changes on Solar Roof have been a bit discouraging for customers and investors. Could Tesla share more about Solar Roof challenges and if the outlook has changed at all, i.e. 1,000 roofs per week?
Elon Musk:
Yeah. First of all, I should say, the demand for the Solar Roof remains strong. So despite raising the price, the demand is still significantly in excess of our ability to meet the demand to install the Solar Roofs. So production has gone fine, but we are choked at the installation point. We did find that we basically made some significant mistakes in assessment of difficulty of certain roofs, but the complexity of roofs varies dramatically. Some roofs are literally two times or three times easier than other roofs. So, you just can’t have a one size fits all situation. If a roof has a lot of protuberances or if the roof sort of the core structure of the roof is rotted out or is not strong enough to hold the Solar Roof, then the cost can be double, sometimes three times what our initial quotes were. So in those cases, what we obviously have to do is to refund customers their deposit. What we cannot do is go and just lose a massive amount of money. We have just got to provide a refund of the deposit. But what is I think most important about the Solar Roof situation, which I tweeted about this past week, is that we are shifting the whole solar situation, the solar power, basically the solar factory situation to, there’s only one product basically, there’s only one configuration every house, but we will not sell a house solar without a Powerwall. That solar could either be solar retrofit with conventional panels put on the roof or it can be the Tesla Solar Glass Roof. But in all cases, it will have the Powerwall to temporary this -- and this is essentially the Powerwall to a plus if you will, the plus refers to a higher peak power capability. So basically, all Powerwalls made since roughly November of last year have a lot more peak power capability than the specification on the website. They are about twice the power capability, roughly. It depends on how you count power, but about twice the peak power and about oddly twice the steady-state power of the specification on the website. The energy is the same but the power is roughly double. And all installations will have a Powerwall and the difficult the installation will dramatically increase -- or the difficulty of the installation will be much less, it will be much easier, because the power from the Solar Roof, the Solar Glass Roof, or the solar panels, will only ever go directly into the Powerwall. And the Powerwall will only ever go between the utility mains, right, between the utility and the main power panel of the house, which means you never need to touch the main circuit breakers of the house. You never need to touch the house circuit breakers. Effectively almost every house, therefore, looks the same electrically instead of being a unique work of art and requiring exceptional ability to rewire the main panel. So this is extremely important for scalability. It’s the only way to do it, really. And this also means that every solar Powerwall installation that the house or apartment or whatever the case may be, will be its own utility. And so even if all the lights go out in the neighborhood, you will still have power. So that gives people energy security. And we can also, in working with the utilities, use the Powerwalls to stabilize the overall grid. So let’s say like if there was a -- like there was in Texas. There was a peak power demand and that peak power demand, because the grid lacked the ability to buffer the power, they had to shutdown power. There’s no power in storage. No good form of power storage. However, with a whole bunch of Powerwalls at houses, we can actually buffer the power. So if the grid needs more power, we can actually then with the consent, obviously, of the homeowner and the partnership with the utility, we can then actually release power on to the grid to take care of peak power demand. So, effectively, the Powerwalls can operate as a giant distributed utility. This is profound. I am not sure how many people will actually understand this. This is extremely profound and necessary, because we are headed towards a world where, as we just talked about earlier, where people are leaning towards electric vehicles. This will mean that the power needs in -- at homes and businesses will increase significantly. We will need -- there will need to be a bunch more electricity coming somewhere. In fact, if you go full renewable electricity, we need about three times as much electricity as we currently have. So these are rough numbers, but you roughly need twice as much electricity if all transport goes electric and then you need three times as much electricity if all heating goes electric. So basically, this is a prosperous future, I think, both for Tesla and for the utilities, because -- and in fact -- and this will be very -- if this is not done, utilities will fail to serve their customers. They won’t be able to do it. They won’t be able to react fast enough. And we are going to see more and more of what we see in California and Texas of people seeing brown-outs and black-outs, and the utilities not being able to respond, because there’s a massive change going on with the transition to electric transport and we are seeing more extreme weather events. This is a recipe for disaster. So it is very important to have solar and batteries at the local level at the house. In addition, it is important to have large battery storage at the utility level so that solar and wind, which are the main forms of renewable electricity can be -- that electricity can be stored because sometimes the wind doesn’t blow. Sometimes it blows a lot. Sometimes it blows too much and at times it doesn’t blow enough. But if you have a battery, you can store the energy and provide the energy to the grid as needed. The same goes for solar because, obviously, the sun does not shine at night and sometimes it is very cloudy. And so by having battery storage power with solar and wind, this gives the long-term solution to a stable energy future, and as I said, especially each both at the local level and at the utility level. If it doesn’t occur at the local level, what will actually be required is a massive increase in power lines, in power plants, as they would have to put long distance and local power lines all over the place. They will have to increase the size of the substations. It’s a nightmare. This must occur. There must be solar plus battery. It’s the only way. So, yeah.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And the next retail question is, Master of Coin, can you tell us anything about Tesla’s future plans in digital currency space? Or when any such major developments might be revealed?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Sure. Thanks, Martin. So as I noted in our opening remarks and we have announced previously, so Tesla did invest $1.5 billion into Bitcoin in Q1 and then we subsequently sold a 10% stake in that. We also allow customers to make vehicle deposits and final vehicle purchases using Bitcoin. And so where our Bitcoin story began, maybe just to share a little bit of context here. Elon and I were looking for a place to store cash that wasn’t being immediately used, trying to get some level of return on this but also preserve liquidity. Particularly as we look forward to the launch of Austin and Berlin, and uncertainty that’s happening with semiconductors and port capacity, being able to access that cash very quickly is super important to us right now. And there aren’t many traditional opportunities to do this or, at least, that we found and in talking to others that we could get good feedback on, particularly with yields being so low and without taking on addition risk or sacrificing liquidity. And Bitcoin seemed, at the time, and so far has proven to be a good decision, a good place to place some of our cash that’s not immediately being used for daily operations or maybe not needed until the end of the year and be able to get some return on that. And I think one of the key points that I want to make about our experiences in the digital currency space is that there’s a lot of reasons to be optimistic here. We are certainly watching it very closely at Tesla, watching how the market develops, listening to what our customers are saying. But thinking about it from a corporate treasury perspective, we have been quite pleased with how much liquidity there is in the Bitcoin market. So our ability to build our first position happened very quickly. When we did the sale later in March, we also were able to execute on that very quickly. And so as we think about kind of global liquidity for the business and risk management, being able to get cash in and out of the markets is something that I think is exceptionally important for us. So we do believe long-term in the value of Bitcoin. So it is our intent to hold what we have long-term and continue to accumulate Bitcoin from transactions from our customers as they purchase vehicles. Specifically, with respect to things we may do, there are things that we are constantly discussing. We are not planning to make any announcements here. We are watching this space closely. So when we are ready to make an announcement on this front, if there’s one to come, we will certainly let you all know.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the fourth question from retail investors is, does Tesla have any proactive plans to tackle main stream media’s imminent massive and deceptive click bait headline campaigns on safety of Autopilot or FSD, perhaps a specialty PR job of some sort?
Lars Moravy:
Well, I will take this one, guys. From the safety side, I continue to say, he is driving on too.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Lars Moravy:
Go ahead, Elon.
Elon Musk:
No. Please go ahead. I think, just with -- just going through the facts of what I mean, specifically, there were -- there was an article regarding a tragedy where there was a high speed accident in Tesla and it was really just extremely deceptive media practices where it was claimed to be Autopilot, which is completely false and those journalists should be ashamed of themselves. Please go ahead, Zach.
Lars Moravy:
Yeah. Thanks, Elon. So I was just saying, we are committed to safety in all our designs and that’s number one in what we do here. Regarding the crash in Houston, specifically, we worked directly with the local authorities and NTSB, so wherever applicable and whenever they reach out to us for help directly on the engineering level and whatever else we can support. In that vein, we did a study with them over the past week to understand what happened in that particular crash and what we have learned from that effort was that Autosteer did not and could not engage on the road condition that as it was designed. Our adaptive cruise control only engaged when the driver was buckled and above 5 miles per hour, and it only accelerated to 30 miles per hour with the distance before the car crashed. As well, adaptive cruise control disengaged the car fully to complete to a stop when the driver’s seat belt was unbuckled. Through further investigation of the vehicle and the accident remains, we instructed the car with NTSB and we saw in the local police and were able to find that the steering wheel was indeed deformed, so it was leading to a likelihood that someone was in the driver’s seat at the time of the crash and all seat belts post-crash were found to be unbuckled. We were unable to recover the data from the SD card at the time of impact, but the local authorities are working on doing that and we await their report. As I said, we continue to hold safety in a high regard and look to improve our products in the future through this kind of data and other information from the field.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. Let’s go to the next question from institutional investors. The first question is, proponents of alternative grid storage technologies claim that lithium ion is unsuited to long-term storage at scale due to vampire drain. Could 4680 cells address this limitation? Is the limitation even relevant for changing the energy equation?
Lars Moravy:
Yeah. Just let me jump in on the vampire drain. That’s definitely not the issue. Good lithium ion cell self-discharges less than 0.001% of its energy per day, so the vampire drain is maybe not…
Elon Musk:
Myth.
Lars Moravy:
Yeah.
Elon Musk:
As mythical as vampires.
Lars Moravy:
Yeah. I think the challenge with seasonal storage is, your value proposition drops from hundreds of utile [ph] full cycles per year to less than maybe 10 or less maybe even less than five cycles per year. So it’s just a different type of technology altogether that would make sense, given that it’s more than an order of magnitude different use case.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. We have got a long way to go before we are dealing with seasonal technology issues. But certainly a way to deal with seasonal technology would be to have wind and solar already on the site of more southerly latitudes and the -- but then across a variety of longitudes. So essentially, let’s say in the U.S., for example, if there was -- I am not sure if Phil understands that you can actually power the entire United States with just sort of a hundred, roughly 100 mile -- by 100-mile grid of solar. Sometimes people don’t quite understand, how much solar is needed to power the United States? Almost nothing of these can be substantially required by this and it is true of almost any country in the world. The solar incidence is a gigawatt per square kilometer. This is insane. In fact, if you took the clear area, just the area, say, for nuclear power plants, the area that is considered not useable because a nuclear power plant is there. In most cases, if you just put solar there it would generate more power than the nuclear power plant, because they typically have pretty wide clear areas. And --so it really -- so if you have say 25% efficient solar panels and then those are 80% efficient in how they are laid out, you are going to do about 200 megawatts per square kilometer. Therefore, 5 square kilometers is a gigawatt, which might be typical sort of power plant. It’s really not much area at all and a lot of places can have wind and solar put in place. So anyway, it’s entirely possible to power all of earth with a small percentage of earth’s area and then to transfer that power through high voltage DC lines. No new technology. No -- you don’t need like room temperature super conductors. This is a total also another myth. Room temperature super conductors almost irrelevant, in my opinion, almost irrelevant. Low cost, long distance power lines using copper or aluminum is very important. So heating is I square R. So that’s current squared to times resistance. So as you increase voltage, you can drop the current dramatically and drop the heating dramatically to a point where it is of minor relevance. Like maybe you lose 5% to 7% with a high voltage DC power line. Something like that. So I want to be clear. No, this is not certain. No new materials are necessary. We just need to scale this thing up. We -- the technology exists today to solve renewable energy. And some people say, well, why don’t we do it? That’s because the energy basis of the earth is gigantic, super mega insanely gigantic. So you can’t just go and do a zillion terawatts overnight. You have got to build the production capacity for the cells, for the battery cells, for solar cells. You have got to put that into vehicles. You have got to put that into stationary storage packs. You have got to put that it into solar panels and Solar Glass Roofs and you have got to deploy all of this stuff. But it’s certainly the case that we can accelerate this and we should try to accelerate it. And the right thing to do I think from an economic standpoint and I think almost any economist would agree is to have a carbon tax, just as we have a tax on cigarettes and alcohol, which we think are more likely to be bad than good and we tend to tax fruit and vegetables less. But the same should be true. We should tax energy that we think is probably bad and support energy that we think is probably good. Just like cigarettes and alcohol. Just like fruits and vegetables. It’s just common sense. And on the plus side, I am not suggesting anyone be complacent. But sustainable energy, renewable energy, will be sold. It is being sold, but it matters how fast we sell this and if we sell it faster, that’s better for the world.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much.
Elon Musk:
There’s no question in my mind whatsoever that the energy storage problem can be solved with lithium-ion batteries, zero. I want to be clear, zero. I think the bias will tend to be towards iron-based, lithium-ion cells. I will say, lithium-ion, people think lithium must be a big constituent of the cells. It’s more like 1% to 2% of the cell is lithium. The main part of the cell is the cathode. The main mass and cost in the cell is the cathode. For high energy cells, like, for example, what we use in most Teslas, have nickel-based lithium-ion cells, which have higher energy density, longer range than iron-based cells. However, stationary storage, the energy density is not as important because it’s just staying on the ground and so I think the vast majority of stationary storage will be iron-based lithium-ion cells with an iron phosphate cathode, technically. But the phosphate part is unnecessary. It’s really just the iron or nickel. I am assuming the terminology. Just think of it as iron and nickel and there’s an insane amount of iron in the world, more iron than we could have possibly used and there’s also more lithium than we could possibly use. Basically, there is no shortage of anything whatsoever in iron phosphate lithium-ion cells.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let’s go to the next question from institutional investors which is, you have suggested that between a 5x to 10x improvement is achievable in automotive production versus the first Model 3 line on a first-principles physics analysis. Where does Berlin sit relative to that limit?
Elon Musk:
I think we are still quite far away from it. I mean, the thing to bear in mind with production is for those who have never done production, they just don’t understand how insanely hard production is. I want to really be very, very emphatic here. Prototypes are trivial. They are child’s play. Production is hard. It is very hard. Now you say production at large scale with higher liability and low-cost, insanely difficult. But what Tesla achieved on the automotive side was not to create an electric car. The truly profound thing on the car side is that Tesla was the first American car company to achieve volume production of a car in 100 years and not go bankrupt. So this is -- this -- basically myself and NIO and Tesla had to basically have several aneurysms to get this done. It was so hard. You have no idea. So anyway, and the thing about making a large complex manufactured object is let’s say that you have a closer approximation 10,000 unique items. If even one of those items is slow, that sets your rate, just one. Isn’t that so trivial? We have had a production stop because of carpet in the trunk. We had a production stop because of a USB cable. At one point for the Model S, the -- we literally raided every electronics store in the Bay Area for a few days there. Nobody could buy a USB cable in the Bay Area because we went and bought them all to put them in the car, literally. And there are like hundreds of stories like that. So anyway, solving that, those constraints, and a logistics problem that makes World War II look trivial. I am not kidding. Like the scale is insane. We are talking millions of cars, massive global supply chain, 50 countries, dozens of regulatory regimes. It’s insane, so yeah.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the last question from institutional investor is, Master Plan Part Deux talks about an urban transport vehicle that is smaller than a traditional bus with greater areal density achieved by removing the central aisle. Do you have any update to share on that goal?
Elon Musk:
Not at this time.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. So let’s move to analyst Q&A.
Operator:
Thank you. First question is from Pierre Ferragu with New Street Research. Your line is open.
Pierre Ferragu:
Hi, guys. Thanks so much for taking my question. I’d love to get actually based on what you presented on the Battery Day. In the last six, seven months, I was wondering how much progress you have made on that front, first in terms of process development. So how are things coming together on your pilot line? Are you getting to the kind of production throughput you are aiming for? And second, actually on your production ramp. So I was wondering in which size you are ramping production capacity for the 4680 cell and where you stand on ramping up that capacity as well? And I have a quick follow-up on energy as well if that’s possible.
Elon Musk:
Well, so we have the – and Drew can add to this. But we have the - a small sort of pilot plant, which is still big by normal standards. We expect to have like a 10-gigawatt-hour per year capability in Fremont, California. And we made quite a few cells. We are not quite yet at the point where we think the cells are reliable enough to be shipped in cars, but we are getting close to that point. And then we have already ordered most of the equipment for battery production in Berlin and then much of it for Austin as well. So we really don’t flick the nitty-gritty elements. But overall, I think, we still feel quite optimistic about achieving volume production of the 4680 next year. What do you think?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I think…
Pierre Ferragu:
Thank you.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I think, Pierre, just one thing I’d add is, there’s been a lot of questions about yield. Actually, I noticed people asking about that. The yield progress isn’t really strong every day and we were really still in commissioning phases. We were really still in commissioning phases with most of the tools to the point where we were confident that the yield trajectory aligns with our internal cost projections. We did talk about yield also at Battery Day, which is one of the reasons why it’s useful to check in on that. It takes a while, as Elon just mentioned, to go from prototype to production and it’s not just parts, it’s processes, it’s equipment. But as we have matured the process equipment, we have gotten to where we need to be on the yield side.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And basically, this is just a guess because we don’t know for sure, but it appears as though we are about 12, probably, not more than 18 months away from volume production of the 4680. Now at the same time, we are actually trying to have our cell supply partners ramp up their supply as much as possible. So this is not something that is to the exclusion of suppliers. It is in conjunction with suppliers.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
So we want to be super clear about that. This is not about replacing suppliers. It is about supplementing suppliers. So -- and we have a very strong partnership with JBL, with Panasonic and LG. And we would -- our request to our strategic partners for cell supply is, please supply us – please supply us with as much as you possibly can. Provided the price is affordable, we will buy everything that they can make.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Yes. And specific to that, we are on track to more than double the supplier capacity over the next 13.
Elon Musk:
Yes. We -- exactly. We do expect from suppliers willing to receive double the cell output next year versus this year.
Pierre Ferragu:
Okay. And I had a quick follow-up on – maybe, Zach, for you on your Energy business. So I understand like the negative gross margin with Solar Roof ran. But I was wondering, what do gross margin look like there when you look at the Storage business and where are you -- what’s your ambition in terms of gross margin in that business? I guess it’s going to grow in the mix in coming years, so it’s important for long-term modeling.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. We are seeing a lot of…
Elon Musk:
We are aiming for comparable margins in storage as in vehicles. But it is important to bear in mind that vehicle is more mature than storage. So we are already are at good margins with the Powerwall, but some additional work is needed for the Megapack to achieve good margins. Yes, Drew, what do you think?
Operator:
Thank you.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. Sorry. Just jumping in, Elon. Absolutely agree. Yes. Powerwall is mature. We have been producing Powerwall 2 for three years now and we are at good margins there, but Megapack has more room to go to achieve our targets.
Elon Musk:
We have a clear runway for improving the cost for the megawatt hours for the Megapack.
Andrew Baglino:
Absolutely. Yes, we do.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let’s go to the next question, please.
Operator:
From Rod Lache with Wolfe Research. Please go ahead.
Rod Lache:
Hi, everybody. I was hoping maybe just first, you could talk a little bit about how you are thinking about the rollout of version 9 of FSD and the transition of the subscription models. It sounds like some of this is about to roll out next month. I am not sure if that’s just a subscription model. But maybe you could just spend a little time talking about how impactful you expect that to be?
Elon Musk:
So go ahead, Zach.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. We are working on getting FSD subscription out. There’s a couple of internal technical dependencies. But from a business model perspective that’s aligned and we are hoping to roll that out soon. The key thing that I say here, there’s a lot of potential for recurring revenue based on a FSD subscription. The -- if you look at the size of our fleet and you look at the number of customers who did not purchase FSD upfront or on a lease and maybe want to experiment with FSD, this is a great option for them. One of the things we will need to keep an eye on is a potential transition from cash purchases of FSD subscription over to cash purchases of FSD who may move over to FSD subscription. And so there could be a period of time in which cash reduces in the near-term and then as the portfolio of subscription customers builds up, then that becomes a pretty strong business for us over time. But we are hoping to get this launched pretty soon and see what the response is to it.
Rod Lache:
Okay, great. And I was hoping, Zach, maybe you could just talk a little bit about OpEx. It was a noticeable increase, even excluding SBC, obviously, a lot going on this quarter. But can you maybe just talk a little bit about how we should be thinking about that going forward?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Sure. On the R&D side, you know what we are seeing, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, is kind of a convergence of a series of programs that are happening and our R&D OpEx spend kind of correlates to where we are in the product lifecycle in different programs. And so we are kind of at the tail end of investments in what we call internally Paladium, which is the new Model S and Model X. And so we expect that to decrease over time, but it was high in Q1 for a lot of the reasons that Elon had mentioned. We are also getting very heavy into 4680 development that Drew and team are working on and the associated structural battery pack that goes along with that. And so these are new technologies, not only new to Tesla, but new to the industry. And so we are investing heavily there on an R&D side to work out those kinks. And spend along in those areas should continue over time as we continue to work through the development cycle of those. Then I also mentioned, and Elon talked a bit about, Dojo and the potential there. So from neural net investments and custom silicon investments, these continue to be areas that we spend on and make investments in. On the SG&A side, the business is pivoting very quickly to be global and China is ramping quite quickly. And we are trying to make sure that we are staying ahead of the volume, so that we have the right sales capacity, store capacity there, local investments and IT and others to manage the growth, such that as the growth comes, the execution challenges are smaller than maybe in similar periods of growth that we have seen in the past and so we are making investments there ahead of the growth. And overall, as we look at OpEx as a percentage of revenue over the course of the year, we do expect to see a substantial drop from 2020 to 2021 as the volumes in the latter part of the year pick up.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let’s go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. We have Dan Levy with Credit Suisse. Your line is open.
Dan Levy:
Hi. Good evening. Thanks. Two questions. One is on COGS, I think, you have gotten from Battery Day a pretty good feel about the potential for COGS reduction related to Powertrain. But I’d like to get a sense of the path to reducing COGS ex-Powertrain as you would still need a meaningful reduction on that front to make the math work on a $25,000 vehicle. So what levers do you have to reduce in your cost ex-Powertrain, is it just more scale, better supply pricing or is it just based on ongoing cost reductions?
Elon Musk:
I think all of the above.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I mean, on the vehicle side, there’s plenty of opportunity as well. Obviously, building a car like a Model S is quite complex and has various moving parts. Model 3 and Model Y were steps of improvement in that. But when you look at some of the other advancements that we are including in the Model Y, factories into Austin and Berlin, we have reduced the body pound by as much 60%. And the part costs money. So we continue to find optimizations there as well as we get economies of scale. When we start to talk about the volumes, we are considering worldwide with four factories building the same vehicle. So both of those things on the vehicle side will improve our COGS as well and the Powertrain continues to be integrated into that.
Dan Levy:
Great. And then just related, as we see Berlin and Austin ramp, I’d like to just get a sense on the comparison of Fremont versus the new capacity, obviously, Fremont is non-optimized because you bought the old NUMMI facility. You had to retrofit that to your need. So maybe you can give us a sense of how your new capacity is going to differ versus Fremont. What are the areas that you have efficiencies that you previously didn’t have and maybe how much does that add up to improved COGS over time to help you achieve that $25,000 vehicle?
Elon Musk:
Yes. We always talk too much about future product development. Earnings calls are not the right place for us to make a major product announcement, so yes. We will get there. We will provide it later.
Martin Viecha:
All right. Thank you very much. Unfortunately, this is all the time we have for today. Thank you very much for dialing in and for listening, and we will speak to you again in about three months. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Thanks. Thanks, everyone.
Operator:
This concludes today’s conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to Tesla's Q4 2020 Financial Results and Q&A Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Sherry and good afternoon everyone. Welcome to Tesla's fourth quarter 2020 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q4 results were announced at about 1 P.M. Pacific Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump into the Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you. So, just to recap the year, 2020 was a defining year for us on many levels. Despite a challenging environment, we reached an important milestone of producing and delivering 0.5 million cars. I'd just like to, once again, thank the people at Tesla for an incredible effort. We delivered almost as many cars last year as we produced in our entire history. So, really an incredible growth rate and despite a very challenging 2020. So, my hat is off to such a hard work with such great people at Tesla. So -- and full year, we achieved free cash flow of nearly $2.8 billion after spending more than $3 billion on building new factories and other expenditures. We reached industry-leading GAAP operating margins in addition to positive net income and record cash flow. Regarding capacity expansion, while we focus on execution, we continue to build a lot of new capacity. We started producing the Model Y out of Fremont and have almost reached full production speed. We ramped the Model 3 in Shanghai to more than 5,000 cars a week sustainably, and Shanghai continues to grow rapidly. We introduced the heat pump to all of our vehicles. We ramped the single piece -- we started and we're able to ramp to volume production at the single-piece castings for Model Y. This is where -- for the first time in history, the entire rear third skeleton of the car is being cast as a single piece in the largest and most advanced casting machine ever made. We built a Model Y factory in China from start to finish in one year. We're also building Giga Berlin and Giga Texas, which we expect to start production later this year. And lastly, we built a cell -- a battery cell factory in the Bay Area. And this -- even though it is a pilot plant, it is -- its capacity is large enough that it would be in the -- probably the top 10 battery cell factories on earth despite being a pilot plant. Regarding the new Model S and X, we are launching the -- we're super excited to announce the new Model S and Model X are in production now and will be delivered in February. So we've been able to bring forward the Plaid, Model S and X. And Model S will be delivered in February and X a little later. The Model S Plaid, and we're actually in production now, and we'll be delivering next month. So this is a tri-motor Model S with a completely new interior. There are actually a lot of great things about this. I'll do another call about the Model S later. But it's really a tremendous improvement over the prior version. And the Model S will be the first -- this Model S Plaid will be the first production car ever that is able to go 0 to 60 miles an hour in under 2 seconds. So no production car ever has been able to get below 2 seconds 0 to 60. This is a luxury [sedan] [ph] that is able to go 0 to 60 in less than 2 seconds, and will have the ability to seat up to seven people with the third row seats. So this is pretty nice. This is faster, to be clear, than any car. It's not like there was a different type of car, like a two-door sports car that was able to do that faster. This is the fastest accelerating car ever made for -- that is allowed to go on roads in history. And like I say, we'll start delivering it in a matter of weeks. And, obviously, we’ll get into the details what the Model S changes maybe later this week or next. But it's really better in many ways. We will be actually raising the price of Model S for these new models, so people -- because the old model -- the new model will be $10,000 more. So, hopefully, people aren't too upset if they bought the old model last month, but this one is 10k more. Yes, we think it’s probably the best car of any kind at any price available in the world today. Then with regard to Full Self-Driving, we've made massive progress on Full Self-Driving. I recommend watching the videos of our public beta. So we've got, I think, almost 1,000 people in the beta at this point. And with each successful release of the beta – of the FSD software, just -- it's really improving rapidly. It's not very common for -- I drive the [indiscernible]. It's very common for me to have no interventions on drives that I do, including drives to a place that I've never been to. So these are not preplanned routes. There are -- the car has never been there before. And it's now actually more -- it's more common than not for the car to have no interventions, even on a complex drive. So -- and this is -- basically, I'm highly confident the car will drive itself for the reliability [indiscernible] of a human this year. This is a very big deal. And thinking about, like, how does one justify the value of the company being where it is? And I think there is a way, just with back of the envelop math, to potentially justify it, where -- if Tesla's ships, let's say, hypothetically, $50 billion or $60 billion worth of vehicles, and those vehicles become Full Self-Driving and can be used in robotaxis -- used as robotaxis, the utility increases from an average of 12 hours a week to potentially an average of 60 hours a week, if they're capable of serving as robotaxi. So that's like roughly a 5x increase in utility. But let's -- even if you say like, okay, let's just assume that the car becomes twice as useful as -- not 5x as useful, but merely twice as useful, that would be a doubling again of the revenue of the company, which is almost entirely gross margin. So it would mean, it would be like if you made $50 million -- $50 billion worth of cars, it will be like having $50 billion of incremental profit basically from that because it's just software. So -- [indiscernible] on that, it's like $1 trillion and the company is still in high-growth mode. So I think there is a way to sort of like justify the valuation of the company where it is using just the cars and nothing else, the cars with FSD. And I suspect at least some number of investors are taking that approach. So in conclusion, while 2020 was a turning point for Tesla and in terms of profitability, we believe this is just the beginning. We think 2021 is going to be even more exciting. And you don't know what to expect in a given year. Obviously, last year, we did not 0 many things we do not expect. But assuming that '21 is a relatively normal year from an external standpoint I think it's going to be a great year for Tesla. We've got a ton of -- many great new products coming out. We've got factories that are -- advanced factories [indiscernible] set up production. It will also make it easier having a factory in Berlin, one, in Texas second, just from a logistics standpoint. And Texas can help supply the eastern half of the U.S. and Berlin can help supply Europe. And there's just pure cars on both much less capital tied up with big cars that are -- been transported to customers. And I think the fundamental efficiency of the company will be much better with the factories or at least having factories on – on each continent and having 2 factories in the U.S. So I'm super excited about the future. And yes, we look forward to making it happen. Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And I think our CFO, Zach Kirkhorn, has some opening remarks as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks, Martin. As Elon mentioned, 2020 has been an extremely successful year while managing through many unforeseen and unexpected challenges. On cash, we continue to generate strong free cash flows, reaching a record $1.9 billion in Q4, alongside growth and investment for future programs. Additionally, we've been able to reduce our use of debt and various working capital lines, including settling $2 billion of convertible debt in Q4, which will continue into Q1. For net income, we achieved our first calendar year and 6 sequential quarters of profitability. In addition, auto gross margin excluding credits improved from 2019 to 2020, despite reductions in ASP and inefficiencies from new product launches and transitions. On Q4 specifically, this was a noisy quarter so let's unpack a few things. Stock-based comp increased, part of which is driven by the rise of the stock price over the course of our 2020 employee performance grant process and a portion of which is unique to Q4 only. The impact of SBC increases is seen across both COGS, as well as operating expenses. Automotive gross margin in Q4 was primarily impacted by two things; first, we invested in improving our products built in Fremont, including converting over to the new Model S and Model X, launching the single-piece castings on Model Y and introducing heat pump on Model 3. Second, logistics and labor costs were impacted due to supply chain instability and pandemic inefficiencies. Adjusting for items such as these as we do in our internal management views, we saw an improvement in auto gross margin. Our services and other P&L was impacted by many of the same factors just mentioned, including onboarding costs associated with new service capacity. However, what's most important here is that we've accelerated the growth in service capacity and we’ll continue to drive capacity expansion as fast as possible. On energy gross margin, we saw an impact from Solar Roof related ramp costs and typical seasonality in the lease PPA business. OpEx as a percentage of revenue continues to reduce despite impacts from items mentioned, as well as increased investment in development of future products. Finally, the early settlement of our convertible notes resulted in an additional $100 million of interest expense for the quarter. All that being said, nothing has changed about our view that operating margin will continue to grow and remain industry leading. As we look forward, 2021 may be our most meaningful step forward yet, as we see the benefits of long-standing investments in capacity and technology. The range of possible outcomes this year is wide, given the magnitude of launches. That's a few things we should keep in mind. We continue to expect a long-term volume CAGR of 50%, of which we may materially exceed this in 2021. As we increase production rates, volumes will skew towards the second half of the year, and ramp inefficiencies will be a part of this year's story and are necessary to achieve our long-term goals. Specifically for Q1, our volumes will have the benefit of early Model Y ramp in Shanghai, However, S and X production will be low due to the transition to the newly architected products. Additionally, we're working extremely hard to manage through the global semiconductor shortage, as well as port capacity, which may have a temporary impact. We will continue to invest heavily in supercharging and service capacity while driving reductions on cost, including OpEx as a percentage of revenue. Global demand continues to outpace production, and we're moving as quickly as we can with a focus on the long-term. I look forward to providing updates on progress throughout the year.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And now we can jump straight into questions from [Safe] [ph] Technologies. The first question from institutional investors is, what is currently holding Tesla back from being the market share leader in solar?
Elon Musk:
Yeah. So we're actually seeing tremendous growth in solar quarter-over-quarter last year. And we had our best quarter since, I think, 2018 in Q4. So we do actually expect to become the market leader in solar and then go far beyond it. It's -- unfortunately, there were a few years there where we had to devote the whole company to Model 3 production and building. We basically take the whole company, including people that work around solar and have work on cars. But now we got a little more bandwidth, we're putting a lot of attention on solar, and it is growing rapidly. So I think it will not be long before Tesla is, by far, the market leader in solar.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Another really important part of the solar strategy is achieving an industry-leading cost structure, which then allows us to have industry-leading pricing. And so that's something that we've accomplished over the last year in terms of getting the cost structure in the place that it needs to be and I think I’ve mentioned, this is a really important part industry-leading pricing to become the leader in the space.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And actually important part is achieving better integration between the Tesla Powerwall and the Tesla Retrofit Solar and Tesla Roof. And we're confident we'll have excellent integration – excellent integration with the Powerwall and Tesla Solar, whether it's retrofit or but [indiscernible] roof before the end of the year. So it's really – I think we've got a good strategy. As Zach mentioned, we're focused on reducing the amount of time and the complexity of the install, and we're making great progress in that regard. And I think we'll have something that's really dialed in this year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The second question is, could current owners get ability to transfer their FSD to their next vehicle? This would be a huge for loyalty and overall increased sales of vehicles who are offering more FSD sales on used vehicles.
Elon Musk:
Unfortunately, we're not considering that at this time. We do actually offer an increased – higher price than for a car with FSD than one without FSD. And I do think that the market currently undervalues – or the consumer market. And arguably the stock market sales probably undervalue the just how good FSD is going to be. But we're not currently planning on offering – on allowing it to get transferred.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you.
Elon Musk:
We will be offering subscription pretty soon in the next month or two. So that should address a lot of people's concerns for being able to get it.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And the third question is, can you give us a progress update on dry coating of the battery electrode? At the Battery Day, Elon said, 'I would not say this is completely in the bag as – yet as the yields were low.'
Elon Musk:
Andrew?
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. Sure. It's true. The in-house cell manufacturing system we revealed at Battery Day contains new processes and equipment. So we did expect some unknown unknowns and technical challenges to arise through the production ramp. The Kato team, however, has been able to solve each manufacturing problem presented to date, and continues to improve yield and rate week-over-week and month-over-month as we move up the production S-Curve. At the same time, the cell engineering teams refined designs, and deepened understanding has reinforced our confidence in the drive process and 4680 design, meeting our performance and cost targets. And from a capacity perspective, we have 10 gigawatt hours worth of equipment landed at Kato. The production staff is nearly all hired. Our material supply chain is established and the team is on track for full production ramp this year. Meanwhile, we've developed enough engineering confidence with our 4680 design and the production process and equipment to kick off manufacturing equipment and facility construction to support our 100 gigawatt hour 2022 goal.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. The next question is, why are you confident Tesla will achieve Level 5 autonomy in 2021? And why is Dojo not necessary to get there?
Elon Musk:
I guess, I'm confident based on my understanding of the technical roadmap and the progress that we're making between each beta iteration. Yes. As I'm saying, it's not remarkable at all for the car to completely drive you from one location to another through a series of complex intersections. It's now about just improving the corner case reliability and getting it to 99.9999% reliable with respect to an accident. Basically, we need to get it to better than human by a factor of at least 100% or 200%. And this is happening rapidly because we've got so much training data with all the cars in the field. And the software is improving dramatically. The -- we also write the software for labeling. And I'll say it's quite challenging. We're moving everything towards video labeling. So, all video labeling for video inference and so there are still a few [indiscernible] that need to be upgraded to video training and video inference. And really, as we transition to each net to video, the performances become exceptional. So, this is like a hot thing. The video -- the labeling software that we work for, video labeling, making that better has a huge effect on the efficiency of labeling. And then, of course, the Holy Grail is auto labeling. So, we're -- we put a lot of work into having the labeling tool to be more efficient when used by a person, as well as enabling auto labeling where we can. Dojo is a training supercomputer. We believe it will be -- we think it may be the best neural net training computer in the world by possibly an order of magnitude. So, it is a whole thing in and of itself. And this is something which we offer potentially as a service. So, some of the others need neural net training, we're not trying to keep it to ourselves. So, I think there could be a whole line of business in and of itself. And then, of course, for training vast amounts video data and getting the reliability from 100% to 200% better than average human to 2,000% better than average human. So, that will be very helpful in that regard.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is what is Tesla's current gigawatt-hour run rate of the 4680 cell production? How do you see this run rate evolving by mid-2021 or end of 2021?
Elon Musk:
I think we kind of talked about that true. I mean essentially, what we're saying is that the number to think about or focus on is like we've got a 100 gigawatt-hour total Tesla cells produced in 2022. It's not that important to look at the run up to that because -- but these things tend to improve exponentially. But we are installing capacity for -- in 2022 for 200 gigawatt hours a year and we think probably we should be able to achieve 30% of targeted design capacity in 2022.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Yes. Agreed, Elon. And as you've said before, with the S curve of production, you can be off a little bit on the initial part of the S curve, and that makes a difference in absolute capacity by quite a bit, one month to the next. So, yes, I mean we are progressing up that S curve as fast as we possibly can.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And we don't see any showstoppers.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And one more question is from retail investors. What is Tesla doing to improve service experience? Tesla had a reputation for outstanding customer service. Now it's impossible to even call a service center, and appointments are scheduled weeks out. Jerome?
Jerome Guillen:
Yes. Well, as far as best service, no service. So we spent a lot of efforts trying to improve the quality and the reliability of our cars. In the last two years, the frequency of service visits are reduced by one-third. So people have to -- customers have to come less frequently in service, which is really the goal, no service. And if service has to take place, we are trying to make it as painless as possible. One big effort there is to increase mobile service, which is now more than 40% of all visits in North America. We're trying to push that to 50% this year. In 50% of service visits lasts less than two hours. So we're trying to service the cars very quickly, so people can get their vehicles back on the road. And in terms of service appointment, it continues to improve. We have about -- we have actually 140 service centers right now in North America. For 100 out of those 140, you can get appointments in less than 10 days. And we're going to make sure it's all service centers are -- have a short wait time. We're accelerating, as Zach mentioned earlier, the pace of opening. In North America, we opened 11 centers in December, and we have plans to open 46 in the first half of this year. So that's what we're doing to improve service. In terms of phones, our emphasis is on the app. Really, we want all communications to go through the app, the tesla app. And we are trying to move away from the phone. As the app is much better than the phone. It can spot directly alerts, directly from the car and schedule a service appointment. And there is a written record of all communication between the customer and the service team. You can have pictures in there. You can take care of your payment without entering the credit card and doing all that stuff. You get updates on the service. And there is even more features that are going to come in the coming months on the app. And I think everybody will be happy, including the ability to spot where your service technician is and how far it is to coming from your car and what's going on there. So we are investing everything on the app. I think just like most other companies as well, and that's the way of the
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And now let's go to institutional investor questions. The question number one, what are the key milestones we need to achieve in order to evolve current FSD to a commercial Level 4, Level 5 ridesharing solution?
Elon Musk:
Yes. So it really goes back to what I was saying a moment ago, which is, we need to transition over the neural nets in the car to video. And in order to do that, the whole stack has to be to – the whole stack has to be changed to video. That means gathering video clips than using – and this is actually surround video. So you've got 8 cameras operating simultaneously with synchronized frame rates. So you've got 8 frame surround video – 8 camera surround video. And then you've got to label basically everything in that video snippet and then train against that and have those neural nets operate the car. So – and this is coming from the past where we would label, the neural nets would be a single camera, single frame. So no video and not combining the cameras. And then we went from single frame, one frame at a time, one camera at a time, neural nets to surround camera -- neural nets would look at all -- all 8 cameras but only 1 frame at a time, and now to where we include the time dimension, and that's video. So I really do see this as a question of getting work done. We're getting it done. And you can see the results in the rapidly improving FSD betas that are at least -- we're also going to be expanding the FSD beta itself to include more and more people. So from my standpoint, it looks like a very clear and obvious path towards a vehicle that will drive 100% safer than a person. Yes. I really don't see any obstacles here.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the second question from institutionals is, does Tesla plan or expect to license any of its software applications, FSD and auto bidder in particular, to third-party OEMs?
Elon Musk:
I think we're very open to licensing our software to third parties. And we've had some preliminary discussions about licensing autopilot to other OEMs. So this is something we're more than happy to do. And -- but I think, obviously, like we need to probably do a little bit more work to prove that Tesla Autopilot is capable of full self-driving, which is, I think, will become obvious later this year. And then we're more than happy to license that to other car companies. We're definitely not trying to keep it to be a Tesla exclusive situation. And I think the probably same goes for Autobidder. We haven't thought as much about Autobidder, but the Tesla philosophy is definitely not to create walled gardens. We're going to allow other companies to use our supercharge networks. And yes, using our autonomy software and Autobidder be fine to.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, key differences in product, customer preferences, FSD strategy between China and the rest of the world. Do we need to do things differently to win the Chinese EV market?
Elon Musk:
Well, we currently are winning that -- we are currently the leader in the Chinese EV market. So I think we're mostly doing something right if we're the best-selling electric car in China. That said, very few of our customers in China, I think maybe as low as 1% or 2%, actually have selected the FSD option. This is much lower than rest of world. So we definitely need to make it work well in China. I think some of it works well in China, then we will have a Grade 4 FSD. I find that the customers in China, Tesla owners in China are among the most discerning in the world. Their attention to detail is incredible. So they -- I'm confident that they will buy FSD as soon as it’s working on time. And we hopefully that is later this year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the next question is, is it fair to argue that the best way to think about company's long-term earnings power is tied to profit per unit of battery capacity? Three-terawatt hours target from Battery Day implies half of long-term battery capacity goes to storage, depending on what you assume for pack size on Elon's 20 million vehicle unit goal?
Elon Musk:
Yeah. It is. So the fundamental limit on electric vehicles right now, in general, is total availability of cells. What's the output of factory cells in gigawatt hours? And you can't grow faster than that. Now at Tesla, we've improved the efficiency of cars dramatically, such that you can actually get a pretty good range even with the standard range battery pack. It's in the high -- it's approaching -- for Model 3, it's approaching the high 200s. And some slight continued improvements, we'll start to get to a 300-mile range even with standard pack and an order 500 kilometers. So there's efficiency improvements in the car. But fundamentally, the growth is dependent on cell production. And there's, obviously, a lot of other companies that want to -- that have a need for sales. So -- but the reason Tesla is doing its own cell production is in order to accelerate the growth. It is not to make less use of our cell suppliers. In fact, I want to be really clear, Tesla wants to increase purchases from cell suppliers. And we've been very clear with our cell suppliers, whether it be CATL or Panasonic or LG that we will take as many batteries as they can produce. So -- and we urge them to increase their production, and we will buy as much as they can send to us. Obviously, there are some price limits on that because the car still needs to be affordable. But I'm just trying to be as clear as possible that our goal with making our own cells is not to disintermediate our suppliers. It is to supplement our suppliers. And we went to our suppliers of cells to increase their production, and in addition have our production that is simply taking up the amount beyond, which they are either unable or unwilling to increase their production. So it's an acceleration over and above the most that our suppliers say they can produce for us. And so we -- since the cell output drives vehicle output, the – and then – I mean probably the Roadster value of Tesla is just what's the cell output that implies vehicle output, and then at least double that for autonomy revenue probably one level. And that's how you figure out the value of the company, I think, long term.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. The next question is about 4680 cells which we already covered in the retail section of this call. So let's go straight to the last question from institutional investors, which is, where are you in Cybertruck development? What are your expectations for Cybertruck deliveries in 2021?
Elon Musk:
All right. So we finished almost all of the Cybertrack engineering. So we're no longer iterating at the design center level or design level. We've got the designs fixed. We're getting to – we'll soon order the equipment necessary to make the Cybertruck work. We're actually going to be using even bigger Tesla machines for the rear body of Cybertruck because you've got – obviously, it's a bigger vehicle and you've got a long truck bed that's going to a lot of load. So we'll be using an 8,000 ton casting press for the rear body casting, as opposed to 6,000 tons for Model Y. So 6,000 tons was the biggest cast in the world. 8,000 tons, quite a bit bigger than that. And I think it's going to be incredible vehicle. If we get lucky, we'll be able to do a few deliveries towards the end of this year, but I expect volume production to be in 2022.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And now we can start with questions in the queue.
Operator:
Thank you. Our first question will come from Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer. Please go ahead.
Colin Rusch:
Thanks so much, guys. Can you talk a little bit about the regulatory environment for FSD and how you're seeing that play out? Obviously, it's a bit of a moving target right now, and you guys are really in the way here, but we'd love to understand how those conversations are going and how you see that impacting the rollout of FSD throughout the balance of this year and into next year?
Elon Musk:
Okay. Zach, do you want to – I don’t know, Zach and Jerome?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
The – what we're seeing right now in the U.S., for example, is pretty dynamic space, but it's overall not particularly limiting on a rule basis, but what we're going to expect is to have to work with regulators to demonstrate really, really high reliability, as Elon said before. The rest of the world is fairly dynamic. In Europe, we see a general slowdown, generally not reaching past Level 3 right now with some impetus to start working on new working groups to reach past that. And China showed an interest in working on Level 4 or even Level 5 later this year. So we expect a pretty dynamic 2021 in the regulatory space. We have leadership in the U.S. looking for manufacturers to demonstrate really good launches and really high reliability before releasing to wider and wider groups.
Colin Rusch:
Thanks, guys. And then just a quick follow-up around inflation on some of the materials markets. Obviously, there's a lot going on as low interest rates flow through the basic material space. Can you talk a little bit about the supply chain and how you're migrating some of your exposure around some of your raw material costs?
Jerome Guillen:
This is Jerome. Yes, for supply chain, the first priority now is to deal with the disruptions from COVID and the shipping, in particular, both between Asia and North America. But we're also looking forward to pricing, and we're watching this very closely for all the components. We are entering a series of long-term agreements with preferred suppliers to ensure that not only you're going to have enough quantity to support the growth, 50% CAGR as Zach mentioned earlier, but also good pricing with appropriate sharing of the risk.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question will come from Dan Levy with Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.
Dan Levy:
Hi, good evening. Thank you. Two questions, one on 2021 and just one on capital. First, on 2021. Any expectations for what we should see on regulatory credit sales? And then the second question is on capital. Obviously, you raised a lot of capital in 2020. What should we think about the use of those funds beyond just covering some of the maturities? And can you just give us a sense of what the elevated liquidity does and doesn't buy? Meaning, to what extent does elevated capital enable you to accelerate plans on building capacity or expanding vertical integration, accelerating timing on full self-drive features? So, those are the questions. Thank you.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Sure. On the regulatory and credit sales side, this isn't always an area that's extremely difficult for us to forecast. 2020 regulatory credit sales ended up being higher than our expectations. And it's difficult to give guidance on that. I mean what I said before is that in the long-term, regulatory credit sales will not be a material part of the business, and we don't plan the business around that. It's possible that for a handful of additional quarters, it remains strong. It's also possible that it's not. Most of our regulatory credit revenue from Q4 was not lined up prior to the beginning of the quarter. And these were discrete deals that were struck over the course of the quarter. So, I wish I could give you more on this, Dan, but it's a space that's extraordinarily difficult for us to forecast. On the second side, with respect to capital, a couple of things that we're thinking through there. So, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, debt reduction is an important thing that we're focused on now. Early conversions, these are things we don't have a choice on. We did around $2 billion of that in Q4. We currently have $1.4 billion that we expect to go out in Q1 as a result of early conversions or conversions on convertible debt. That number may increase and so debt reduction is important. That's helpful on interest expense as well. We are also using the money with respect to our investments in future capacity. And so what we're able to do now that we haven't had the opportunity to do in the past is, as we're building capacity, particularly in Austin and Berlin, we can build that capacity with the expectation of what the end state of capacity will be pulling forward some of those investments, rather than incrementally adding capacity as we go along. And so this is an important part in terms of capital efficiency that we haven't had the luxury to do in the past. And it's great to be able to have the liquidity to focus on that. And then more broadly, as Jerome was touching on, service expansion is really important to the future strategy of the company. So, as you saw in our Q4 numbers, the expansion of service centers and mobile service from Q3 to Q4 increased quite a bit and was also quite a bit higher than the first part of the year. And so, we’re able now to make investments there and also in the supercharging network to get ahead of future demand, which will cost us more in the near term, but is what the right long-term thing is for our customers and the company.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question will come from Alex Potter with Piper Sandler. Please go ahead.
Alex Potter:
Great. Thanks. I was wondering, you mentioned how you'd like to increase your purchases of cells from suppliers. Does this require them to also have the capability to build structural 4680 cells of the sort that you're putting in these newer iterations of vehicles?
Elon Musk:
No, it does not. Although, we are talking with them about making the 4680 form factor, but they -- it is not required. For example, the new S currently uses the 18650 form factor. So they're just a more advanced cell, and we think we'll continue to use that form factor for at least a few years. But we will, over time, be retiring the form factors and try to move to a consistent form factor. But it is not a requirement that we place on our suppliers, because they would -- it would just result in fewer cells. So it's better for us to deal with the complexity of different cell form factors than insist on a single form factor for our suppliers today. Like I said, over time, it will make sense to have a consistent form factor.
Alex Potter:
Okay. It makes sense. And then one additional, maybe qualitative question on capacity expansion. You've mentioned in the past, I mean, access to dollars is one thing, but access to human beings that are sufficiently qualified is another. Have you run up against any issues on that front that would potentially limit your growth in any way? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
That is one of the things that limits focus or limits the growth rate. It doesn't limit the ultimate size, but it limits the growth rate, which is what's the rate of which we can onboard great people and get them trained in the right areas. You usually can't like instantaneously -- if you've got a factory that has 20,000 employees, you can't just hire 20,000 people instantly. They've got -- they’re usually doing something else. So they've got to transition from whatever they were doing or move from some other part of the country. And so there's a certain amount of time required for that. I mean, that said, we do think that we can maintain a growth rate in excess of 50% per year for many years to come. And at least, I'd like to -- yes, at least, look forward to many -- for many years to come. I think this year, we may track to a fair bit about 50%, but we don't want to commit to that, but at least that's what it would appear, and the same again next year. It appears to be meaningfully above 50%.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question will come from Joseph Spak with RBC Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
Joseph Spak:
Thanks. Elon, back in 2018, you tweeted about electric vans and how it could be interesting to work with Daimler and Sprinter. We haven't really heard of anything since. But in the meantime, we've seen a lot of activity in electric van and last-mile space from a number of established players of startups. So I know you said that you have a lot of projects on the table, but can you provide us an update of your thoughts on this market? And is it something you're interested in?
Elon Musk:
I think Tesla is definitely going to make an electric van at some point. The thing to bear in mind is that there is fundamentally a constraint on battery cell output. It's like -- if one is not involved in manufacturing, it's really hard to appreciate just how hard this to scale production is. It's the hardest thing in the world. Prototypes are easy. Scaling production is very hard. So a big part of the reason -- the main reason we have not accelerated new products is -- like, for example, Tesla Semi is that we simply don't happen our cells group. We -- this -- if we were to make the Semi like right now, which we could easily go into production with the Semi, but we would not have enough to cells built for it right now. We will have cells group in ourselves for Semi when we were producing the 4680 volume. But for example, Semi would use typically 5x the number of cells that car would use, but it would not sell for 5x what a car would sell for. So it kind of doesn't make -- it would not make sense for us to do the Semi right now, but it will absolutely make sense for us to do it as soon as we can address the cell production constraint. The same would go for that.
Joseph Spak:
Okay. Thank you. And then maybe if I could dig into your past on one more item. About 2 years ago, at the Autonomy Day, you stated that you're working on the next-gen Tesla chip which was about 2 years away. So is there any update on that front?
Elon Musk:
Yes, to be clear, we are still not -- the software still does not fully use the capabilities of the FSD in 1 computer. It is really just incredibly powerful computer and I am personally certain that you can create full self-driving with safe level 5 presence just using the Full Self-Driving version 1 computer. The version 2, we expect to be about 3x as powerful. And this needs to be paired with higher resolution cameras. And so it's quite a -- it requires a bunch of things to change simultaneously. But we have not been rushing the version 2 of the chip. It's coming along well, and it's in good shape. But since we can achieve FSD, Full Self-Driving, with the current system, it would actually be a distraction right now if we were to introduce the Full Self-Driving, the Tesla FSD chip 2 because it would set us back quite a bit on software. And software is the critical path to Full Self-Driving. So I wouldn't worry too much about that. That's not a -- that's an improvement but not a game changer. That has to be changed. Getting the software to work and getting all the neural nets to be video, that's the game changer.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question will come from Emmanuel Rosner with Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Thank you very much. My first question is about your in-house cell manufacturing efforts. So in addition to building up capacity, some of the goals you highlighted was to cut the pricing or the cost by about 50%, boost the range by about 50% over a number of years. So wanted to know if your initial efforts are trending in that direction? What is, sort, of like the timeline to achieve these goals? And maybe related to this, how are you thinking about the time line for the cheaper Tesla, the entry model, eventually?
Elon Musk:
I think we feel very confident about achieving those targets, let's say, over a three-year time frame. I don't know it grew -- it's not like year one. So three, maybe four years, give ourselves a little room. But for three or four years, I’d say.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah. We put together the trajectory in the Battery Day, and we're on that trajectory still. I think that's probably the best reference for the cost trajectory that we are on.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. We're aspiring to do better than Battery Day, but we are confident of at least for doing what we presented at Battery Day.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question will come from Ben Kallo with Baird. Please go ahead.
Ben Kallo:
Hey, guys. Thank you, Elon, congrats to the whole team. So we're trying to put together all the breadcrumbs. If I remember correctly, going back 10 years, you talked about when you have a mass market car on the road, that you'd step down as CEO and be a Chief Architect. And then we have -- you go into Hawaii, subsea lair and the x.com, and I'm trying to put it all together. There's a lot of questions there. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Sure. Well, I expect to be CEO of Tesla for several years. So I think there's still a lot that I'm super excited about doing. And I think it would be hard to leave. I love these great projects halfway or part like hallway done. So I do expect to be running the company for several years into the future. Now, obviously, nobody is or should be CEO forever. So I don't expect to be -- like the sheer amount of work required to be CEO of Tesla is insane. And I do -- I think I do probably more -- I definitely do more technical work than is typical for a CEO. So it would be nice to have a bit more free time on my hands as opposed to just working day and night, from when I wake up to when I go to sleep seven days a week, pretty intense. So -- but I think the mission isn't over yet, and we still got a long way ago before we can really make a dent in the world on accelerating the advent of sustainable energy. I mean, the goal Tesla, from beginning, has been to accelerate sustainable energy. And -- but if you say like what percentage of cars on the road are electric today, it's still very, very tiny, like an order of 1%, or less than 1% of the total fleet worldwide. So that's the full have long way to go for on the order of 1% of the fleet is electric. There's also a tremendous way to go on solar power, although it's exciting to see the advent of very cost-competitive wind and solar and geothermal. And of course, we need a large volume of stationary battery packs. I mean basically, maybe the three legs of a sustainable energy future are sustainable energy generation, led by solar, wind, geothermal and hydro and a few others. And I'm actually not against nuclear fission. I actually think nuclear fission is – with a well-designed reactor in a situation that is not subject to bad weather or seriously bad weather is actually is a good thing to do. So – and then the second thing you need is stationary storage need batteries because most renewable energy is intermittent. It doesn't – the wind doesn't blow all the time. The sun doesn't shine all the time. So you need a lot of batteries. And it needs to be very long-lasting and high cycle life. And then you need electric transport. If you have those three things, we've got a very bright future with respect to energy and the environment. So a long way to go on that. And so I'm still very much fired up to work on that.
Martin Viecha:
Fantastic. And let's take the last question please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our last question will come from Gene Munster with Loup Ventures. Please go ahead.
Gene Munster:
I was happy to see the update on the timing of Semi and had a couple of related questions. And first, since Semi Trucks typically travel predictable highway miles, will Tesla Semi may be the first to achieve full autonomy?
Elon Musk:
I think that's quite likely, yes. Yes, I can't imagine – I'm not sure who would be number two, but yes, it seems highly likely, yes.
Gene Munster:
Okay. And then my...
Jerome Guillen:
The hardware, it's the exact same part numbers on the Semi on the Tesla cars. There's no difference.
Elon Musk:
Yes. That's true. Yes. As it is, we need to modify the parameters, software parameters change for Autopilot or Self-Driving because it needs now to Model 3, Model Y, Model X or Model S. And so this is – we just need to inform the vehicle, inform the Full Self-Driving brain that it is now in a Semi Truck.
Gene Munster:
Would it need to be retrained then as part of that?
Elon Musk:
No. I think there will be – you have a different control functions because there are turns that you could do in a regular car that you cannot do in a Semi, like you do want to try to parallel park this thing on the street in a city. It needs to know its limitations being a giant truck.
Gene Munster:
Makes sense. My follow-up question was related to if you could just help us explain why battery electric will win versus hydrogen cell fuel tech?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, honestly, I've had this question a million times for just for regular vehicles, even back in the early Roadster days, even before we had the Roadster out. People were saying that somehow hydrogen is going to be a better means of energy storage in a car than batteries. And it was like this is just really not the case. Hydrogen is a very – it's number one in the periodic table. It's got very low density. It's got low density as a liquid, like styrofoam-level density as a liquid. And then it's only a liquid very close to absolute zero. So you have to have a – it's really not realistic to keep it as liquid. You want to have it as a high-pressure gas that has even lower density. So you need a gigantic fuel tank volumetrically, and it's got to be very high pressure. It's a big pain yes, basically. If somebody is going to say, use an ultimate chemical energy storage mechanism to hydrogen, I'd say just use propane or something like that, or methane -- those will be way better than hydrogen. And then having it be a fuel cell just adds even further complications to the situation. It's just crazy basically. And we're extremely confident that we could a long-range trucking with batteries. The math works out. You don't -- if you could just like take, say, watt-hours per kilogram of currently available cells, and say, okay, how much -- what weight would you need to go, let's say, 500 miles? And to what degree does that affect your payload? And it's like, okay, do this. If you do it right, you basically have no effect on your payload or almost nothing, and you can have a long-range truck. I mean, Jerome, do you want to add to that?
Jerome Guillen:
I agree there. And we see also an increase on the regionalization of trucks. And I think it will be perfect. The Tesla Semi will be perfect for it, yes. And I'm very -- I'm looking forward to having some additional ones on the road very soon.
Elon Musk:
But basically, we do not see any issues with creating a compelling long-range truck with batteries. The problem is cell supply; cell supply is the only thing.
Gene Munster:
It's going to be awesome.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
All right. Thank you very much. And unfortunately, that's all the time we have today. So, thanks for all of your great questions, and we will speak to you again in about three months. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Thanks so much. Bye.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to the Tesla Q3 2020 Financial Results and Q&A Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations. Please, go ahead, sir.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Sherry, and good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Tesla's third quarter 2020 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q3 results were announced at about 1 PM Pacific time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump into the Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thanks, Martin. All right. So Q3 was our best quarter in history. We achieved the record production deliveries, record revenue, record net income; both GAAP and non-GAAP and record free cash flow of $1.4 billion. This is really due to the amazing execution by the Tesla team. I could not be more proud to work with such a great group of people. Just really kickass performance across -- throughout the world. Of course, we had our Battery Day. So we hosted -- showed our plans for how we can expand in the future and improve core battery technology, core cell technology at the form factor level, chemistry level and I think more significantly at the manufacturing technology level. There's only a comment I made in the past is that, I think, Tesla's long-term competitive strength will be primarily manufacturing. This is counterintuitive, but I'm quite confident this will be what happens. All right. So we presented what the team has been working on for a long time with batteries. We wanted to step back and really rethink batteries from scratch. First, wishful thinking, just look at it from the fundamental physics and say what, rather than compare to other products in the market, just say from a physics standpoint, if you -- what's the limit of physics? What's the platonic idea of the perfect cell and how close can we get there? And that was our aspiration. And I think we've got a pretty good approach to it, which will have to get better over time. And we went through all of the engineering solutions for every important part of battery design and production. And we'll continue to iterate on that and just recursively improve the core cell and battery technology. The result, we think, in a few years, will be batteries that cost half as much and where the capital expenditures required are a-third or less of what they are today. And we expect Giga Berlin will see our first battery cell production line at scale. Regarding the Full Self-Driving beta release. The Autopilot team, again, just a really all-star team. I spent a lot of time with the Autopilot team. And there's a lot of really talented people in that team who've worked incredibly hard to make the -- to get the beta release out. So I'd just really like to thank them for their hard work. And it's just a very smart group of people. So I think we're starting very slow and very cautiously because the world is a complex and messy place. And so, we put it out there last night, and then we'll see how it goes and then probably release it to more people this weekend or early next week. And then just gradually step it up until we have, hopefully, a wide release by the end of this year. And of course, as the system collects more data and it becomes more robust. So it's sort of like how does Google as a search engine get better? It's because everyone is programming it by asking questions all the time and clicking on particular links. So it's got this great feedback and that makes it an extremely effective search engine. It's the same thing for autonomy. Having on the order of 1 million cars that are providing feedback and specifically feedback on strange corner case situations that you just can't even come up with in simulation. This is the thing that is really valuable. It's not like the obvious stuff. Obvious stuff you can do in simulation. But weird corner cases, only a reality can give you that. So that's -- but we're able to say, okay, we need to train the system on this corner case situation and look for examples, so we can then train against those examples and improve some very esoteric corner case. And it's also important to emphasize that this is a generalized neural net-based approach. There is no need for high-definition maps or a cellphone connection. So the car -- the system is designed such that even if you have no connectivity whatsoever and you're in a place that you have never been to before and no Tesla has ever been there, the car should still be able to drive, just like a person. That is the system that we are developing and aiming to release this year. Then in terms of capacity build out. We're making progress on three major factories. We're continuing to expand Shanghai significantly, which is going incredibly well at Tesla China team. It is just, I mean, incredibly good. Super smart, work hard. It's like I'm always amazed by how much progress the Tesla China team makes. It's beyond all reasonable expectations. And then we're under construction in Berlin and Austin. So we're also making good progress there. Yes. It’s good. So it’s overall going well. I should make a point that for Berlin and Austin, we do expect to start delivering cars from those factories next year. But because of the exponential nature of the spool up of manufacturing plant, especially one with new technology, it will start off very slow at first and then become very -- afterward will become very large. Just in general, manufacturing follows the S-curve and I think, some of those people kind of spend a lot of time manufacturing kind of things that once you have a factory, you can just sort of turn it on and it's at capacity. But it will typically take about 12 to 18 months to reach capacity. And that is a very fast period of time, especially for new technology. So yes, I'd say, 12 to 24 months even. So generally, what I see is the manufacturing capacity is underestimated in the beginning for quite some time. Then it is sometimes overestimated because this is an s-curve. It goes exponential to linear to logarithmic. And it's actually incredibly hard thing, just bringing a production plant up to volume technology. If you can actually think of it like you've got to first order approximation, 10,000 unique parts of processes, all of which operate on an s-curve and with a bunch of uncertainty, and you can just slide 10,000 s-curves on an x-axis, and that's what bringing up a large automotive plant is like. And which one is the laggard, which one is the leader, it's very difficult to tell, and it's constantly changing. So it's really one of the most difficult challenges I've ever seen. So let's see. In conclusion, thank you. What we would achieve would not be possible without the incredible hard work of tens of thousands of Tesla employees and all people and our suppliers as well. I'd like to thank our suppliers. We continue to grow as fast as we can while focusing on cost control and improving quality. And ultimately, the best company will be that which makes great products at an affordable price, and that's our goal. I think I've never felt more optimistic about the future of Tesla than I do today. I'd also like to thank investors who have stuck with us through thick and thin. This is -- I think there's a lot more good stuff to come. All right. With that, we can move to questions.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Elon. I think our CFO, Zachary Kirkhorn, has some opening remarks as well.
Elon Musk:
Okay. Sure.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks, Martin. Overall, our financial health continues to rapidly improve with Q3 being another great quarter on nearly all dimensions, as Elon has mentioned. On net income, we achieved our fifth sequential quarter of profitability, our best net income, and nearly double-digit operating margins. Two things that are important to note to set context for Q3 profitability. First, the regulatory credits business was stronger than our expectations, and we are tracking to more than double this year compared to last. Second, as a result in the rise of the market cap of the company, the second and third tranche of the CEO grant vested during the quarter. Additionally, we have begun expensing one more tranche, resulting in roughly $300 million of combined period expense. I think it's reasonable to view the quarter excluding both these items to get a true sense of the health of the core business. On automotive gross margin, including regulatory credits, it increased materially from 18.7% to 23.7%, with some of our programs achieving greater than 25% gross margin. Keep in mind that inefficiencies related to factory shutdowns affected our margins in Q2. We continue to reduce our manufacturing and operational costs. We are also seeing benefits from the ongoing upward trend of locally built and delivered cars, which has increased from under 50% at the beginning of last year to over 70% most recently, which is a core component of our cost reduction strategy. We are also seeing financial benefits from improved vehicle reliability across the fleet. Services and other margin approved yet again, driven by our used vehicle business and efficiencies in our service operations. In the Energy business, we achieved record storage deployments, aided by the positive reception of the Megapack and Powerwall products as production and deployments grow. Additionally, our filler deployments doubled, and we're continuing to make progress on that front. On cash flows, our cash balance increased to $14.5 billion, which includes free cash flows of $1.4 billion, our highest yet. Our operating cash flows were $2.4 billion, including a $600 million benefit from working capital as we've made progress on days of receivables and inventory despite a reduction in days available. Note that the majority of our operating cash flows are driven by the strengthening of our core operations. Capital expenses grew to $1 billion, driven by Model Y incidents in Shanghai, Berlin, and Austin. As were previous investments in Model 3 Shanghai and Model Y in Fremont, we're expecting these programs to have already fully paid for their respective investments by the end of this year. Looking forward to 2021 and 2022, we have revised up our expectations for capital spending by $2 billion to $2.5 billion, which we have ample liquidity and expected cash flows to fund. This is driven by an increase in-source scope for certain factories, including battery cell manufacturing as well as investments to enable greater capacity expansion in the future. While we expect the return on our investments to remain very strong, keep in mind that with additional scope and location-specific costs, payback of these investments may be slightly longer than what we saw in Model 3 in Shanghai and Model Y in Fremont. Financing cash flows were $4.5 billion as we reduced use of our working capital lines, offset by a $5 billion equity raise in September. Note that we're currently expecting over $1 billion in early convert paydowns in Q4, primarily associated with the 2021 conversions, but also our 2022 and 2024. Looking forward, we remain focused on strengthening the core fundamentals of the business. We are increasing production to meet demand, reducing costs, including localization, driving higher efficiency across the business, and tightening our cash conversion cycle. We've made tremendous progress on this front over the last year and a half. We're also aiming to achieve our original 2020 guidance of 500,000 deliveries despite the operational interruptions earlier in the year. While this goal remains a genuine challenge, we believe it's possible with tight execution across the company. So, congratulations again to the Tesla team for a great quarter and a great year. I'll hand it over to RJ Johnson, who joined Tesla earlier in the year and is leading our Energy business for a few comments.
RJ Johnson:
Thank you, Zach. First, I'd like to also thank and congratulate the team on a job well done. Q3 was a strong quarter for the Energy business, and we're poised for continued strong growth in Energy storage and solar. Megapack is going to be a large growth segment for the business and deployments will continue to expand rapidly as the product reaches full capacity. We have more demand than supply through 2021 and we continue to ramp the product to match unprecedented demand across the globe through 2023 and beyond. Our order book is rapidly filling up through 2023 in a multiple gigawatt-hour scale. Large scale solar plus storage is now more cost-effective than traditional fossil fuel generation in many locations across the globe. This trend will continue as we remove cost, which will further displace existing and new fossil fuel generation. This is true for standalone storage as well. Many customers are utilizing Autobidder to maximize returns as we optimize our hardware and software with advanced real-time bidding strategies that continue to outperform the market where deployed. For PowerWall, we see continued strong demand for residential storage as customers seek increased reliability and backup home generation. We have a very large backlog of PowerWall orders and we continue to invest to increase capacity to fulfill customer orders. We're just now capturing the full power of customer-cited solar plus storage as customers in some jurisdictions are providing services back to the grid when they don't need to consume energy or have backup power. This has massive potential to reduce system cost and make the grid more efficient globally. In the United States, we lowered our residential solar retrofit price to $1.49 a watt after tax incentives, which is the lowest in the industry. We're able to do this by leveraging our online vehicle ordering infrastructure, which substantially reduces the soft costs associated with sales and marketing. As a result, our fixed costs remained relatively flat as our volume and efficiency increase, leading to increased profitability in the retrofit business. We're using the same methodology across the entire Energy business, including service, to capitalize on the technology backbone of the company. Solar Roof is especially exciting as we've gained significant experience over the last year in the installation process, which is a key enabler to scale the business. We've recently demonstrated our ability to complete Solar Roof installation in just one day. We're pleased now, this still requires one to two days to remove the existing roof and prepare it for the Solar Roof installation. Clearly, there will be a range of installation times based on size, complexity, weather and other factors. Overall, our reduced installation time provides a better customer experience, and will enable the business to grow exponentially as scale effects allow for increased efficiency. In closing, we believe the Energy segment is poised for a strong growth as we continue to focus on increasing scale while reducing cost to maximize profitability. I want to thank the team again for their hard work, and I look forward to another strong quarter ahead of us.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much, everyone. And let's begin with questions from say.com. The first question from retail shareholders is, is Tesla planning to start 4680 cell production at Giga Berlin at the same time as vehicle production? Can Tesla share more information on what products you'll use the battery cells from the pilot line in Fremont?
Elon Musk:
Yes. Drew, do you want to take that?
Drew Baglino:
Sure. Yes, we will incorporate 4680 design solutions into many applications in time across both energy and vehicle. And we can use our pilot production facility in Fremont to support the new factory in Berlin as it ramps.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let's go to the next question, which is question number two from retail shareholders. Does Tesla's tablet cell design allow for significantly higher peak charging rates? Does it improve the required taper curve?
Drew Baglino:
Yes. The fundamental limitation on charge rate in lithium-ion batteries is avoiding lithium plating on the anode. And while the tablet's architecture helps avoid overheating because it's a more power dense architecture at high continuous charge rates, it doesn't change the anode plating story. Electro design and anode material choice more directly determines the maximum charge rate and how to avoid that lithium plating problem.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. The third question from retail is, would FSD be able to be transferred to our next vehicle or pay a transfer fee? It would add a broad -- it would add to a brand loyalty. In the same way, gaming companies and cellphone companies keep you in their ecosystem by letting new transfer purchases to upgraded hardware?
Elon Musk:
Yes. We'll give it some thought.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. The fourth question is, what are the remaining constraints to be sold for solar installations to ramp significantly? Carl?
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes. I'm Carl, I'm on the Solar Roof engineering and installation. The biggest constraint right now in Solar Roof ramp is getting enough installers on board and trained and experienced. We've made a lot of progress on this in Q3, and we're continuing to hire. The next opportunity is improving the material flow on the job site. We've talked about this a lot in the factory as well that setting up the right packaging, kitting so that every installer on the roof has the parts they need at their fingertips. Also, we've had great response from third-party roofing contractors as they're ramping up installations for Solar Roof on their customer homes, which is a big source of future growth.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Carl.
Elon Musk:
I mean, here's the way to think about that product, in my opinion. You have to say, I think what do you want the world to look like? When you look around the neighborhood future, decade from now, what do you want? What products are going to make your life better? What future do you want? And I think a future where we've got beautiful roofs with generating energy that are tough and resilient and better in every way than a regular roof and a lab with energy. That's the future we want. The Solar Roof is a killer product. This will become obvious next year.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the last question from retail shareholders is, you recently referred to Tesla as a conglomerate of start-ups. Other than manufacturing electric cars, what do you suppose will be the most valuable business units within Tesla over the next five to seven years? Could you envision any of them ever spinning out from Tesla?
Elon Musk:
Well, yes, I think about this today. Tesla there's probably in excess of a dozen startups effectively in Tesla. Every major product line is a startup. Every new -- big new plant is a startup. And sometimes, frankly, we have to learn a lesson a few times before since then. But even things like service and sales are startups. Other car companies, OEMs, they don't own their sales and service. So we have to create our service network. We have to create our sales and delivery network. We have to do this in, I don't know, 40 countries, multiple languages. So people don't really even know much about is our internal applications team that writes the core technology that runs the company. We are not dependent on enterprise software. Like for those who understand what this means, this is a very big deal. And my hat is well to the great work of the internal applications team. They are like the nervous system, the operating system of the company, the Tesla operating system, extremely fundamental. Obviously, insurance is substantial. So insurance could very well be 30%, 40% of the value of the car business, frankly. And as we've talked about before, with a much better feedback group, instead of being statistical, it can be specific. And obviously, somebody does not have to choose our insurance. But I think a lot of people will. It's going to cost less and be better. So why would you? And the whole autonomy thing is a startup. The computer chip was -- designing our computer chips was a start-up. Obviously sales are a start up. Designing and making our own power electronics for the grave unit, design, manufacturing our own motors, chargers, the Supercharger network is a startup. The thing, I think that people just don't really understand about Tesla is that it's a whole chain of startups. And they like, well, you didn't do that before. Yes. We're doing it now. I mean, I think so far, we have not -- we've maybe been a bit slow with some of the start-ups, but I don't think we've had any of them fail, so far, so good. No plans to spend anything out. That just sounds like added complexity.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let's go through institutional investor questions. The question number one is, as a bridge to the ride-hailing network, could you leverage the insurance product to give customers the ability to rent out their vehicles via the app, thereby enabling the car to make money for them, so basically proprietary version of Toro.
Elon Musk:
We think we're focused on enabling the robotaxi system. So, you can just basically -- like that's really quite a small subset of the overall robotaxi or robocar thing where you can have the car get autonomous for you. You've got the car you have to share with friends and family. You can add or remove it from the network. You can have it be entirely in the network. I mean, if you're an Uber or Lyft driver, you could be managing a fleet of 10 cars. This sort of seems like a shepherd tending the flock type of thing. It's like you just get more, way more leverage. So I think that's sort of -- we could do that. It wouldn't be very difficult, but we're going to just be focused on just having an autonomous network. That has sort of elements of Uber, Lyft and Airbnb. Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the second question from institutionals is, residential energy use accounts for roughly the same magnitude of carbon emissions as road transport. Today's boilers and aircon units are profoundly on sexy. Could you elaborate on HVAC advances with the Y? Could also find use in a domestic system?
Drew Baglino:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Go ahead, Drew.
Drew Baglino:
I was just going to say, I mean, I think one of the things we focused on with the Model Y and now Model 3 pump system was learning how to build a tightly integrated system capable of moving heat to and from anywhere really, powertrain battery, cabin, the environment, in, outside ambient temperatures, all the way down to like negative 20 C, so 30 C. And that's definitely applicable to the home needs of heating and cooling the home and the water in your house, so certainly applicable. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Yes, absolutely. I think like the heat -- for heat pump in the car, being able to use the batteries, both as a thermal and an electric energy reservoir is very significant. Same thing could be applied to a home with the water heater, so -- and the back of pack itself, of course. So, I think there's potential for an integrated home system that Canada's power generation storage, heating cooling, air filtration, water purification in a really tight package. We don't actually have like a prototype or anything, but I think conceptually, that is something that would be probably good to have.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The third question from institutionals is, if meeting your long-term volume targets requires price reductions that preclude you from achieving your low double-digit stated margin targets for the autos business, will you still reduce prices accordingly?
Elon Musk:
Well, we want to make our cars more affordable, and it's real important to separate out affordability from value for money. If the car is too expensive or any given product is too expensive, then people don't have enough money in the bank account, they simply can't buy it no matter what the value proposition is. So it is important to lower the prices in order to such that people can literally just have enough money to buy it. I do not think we lack for a desire for our product, but we do lack for affordability. And so we have to improve the affordability of our products, so they are not out of reach of people. We want to bring them more in reach over time, but also improve our cost of production. Obviously, we get, hopefully, a little bit better every year. Sometimes a lot better. And in terms of margins, all of these margins are going to look pretty comically small when you factor in autonomy.
Drew Baglino:
Yes. Two things I'll add to that. Without a doubt, I mean, we're moving forward to push as much volume as we reasonably can. So Elon talked to earlier kind of how the S-curve and the time line incremental factories looks like. And so we're moving full speed ahead with as much volume as we can reasonably move forward with. The second comment I'd make is, if you just look at the journey of the company over the last 1.5 years, we have grown volumes and grown gross margins despite a number of price reductions over that period of time, and we have cut OpEx fairly stable during that period of time as well. And so the key is what Elon mentioned here. I mean, we have to improve the affordability of the vehicle. We have to also continue to make progress improving the cost structure of not only COGS, but of OpEx, which we've demonstrated over the last 1.5 years, I think, quite successfully and improve the value of the vehicles at the same time. So in addition to reducing the cost of the car, we're making the cars better. And that's the formula to sell the volume. That's what we're focused on.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. The fourth question from institutionals is, at what point do you expect to have enough internal or external battery capacity to start ramping up stationary storage deployments again?
Elon Musk:
Yes. We're ramping up stationary storage a lot. So I mean, it's approximately doubling as we expect, it's approximately double next year. So that's pretty good. And hopefully, we can accelerate that in years to come.
Drew Baglino:
And approximately doubling it this year, too. So the growth...
Elon Musk:
Yes, yes, yes. I mean, if you just keep doubling things, pretty soon, you hit the mass of the universe, and we'll need to start turning Jupiter into cells.
Martin Viecha:
And the last question from institutionals is, manufacturing is hard. Delays happen. What contingencies do you have in place to ensure that bottlenecks that you might encounter while renting internal cell production will not preclude you from your ability to hit your Model Y production volume targets in Berlin and Texas?
Elon Musk:
Yes. So I think it's -- we're trying to derisk to 2021 so that there's almost no dependency on our internal cell production. It's very, very small. The internal cell production will help us ramp in '22, but we're not dependent on it for '21.
Andrew Baglino:
And to derisk the manufacturing system itself, that was one of the reasons why we located our pilot production facility here in Fremont, so we can rapidly iterate on manufacturing scale-up challenges, provide rapid feedback to the design of both the product and the equipment.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Our pilot line is pretty big as pilot lines go. It's -- it will be in the top 10 cell factories on Earth, I believe.
Andrew Baglino:
Yes. That's true.
Elon Musk:
I'll subscale one. Yes so.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And now we can go to questions from analysts online. Sherry?
Operator:
Thank you. [Operator Instructions] Our first question will come from Rod Lache with Wolfe Research. Please go ahead.
Rod Lache:
Hi, everybody. Just wanted to ask about the targets from your Battery Day, looked like you could be approaching something like 20 million vehicles by 2030, if you hit those goals. Could you maybe share with us a little bit more of a midterm target, like where would you be by 2025, and maybe give us a little bit more insight into the investment required to get there, just to put that extra $2 billion to $2.5 billion per year into context?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, I think the tricky thing with trying to predict things midway through exponential is that if things are doubling every year or even just growing 50%, then if you shift one -- plus/minus one year, it has a huge effect on the number. So -- and it sounds like, wow, you either massively exceeded or massively undershot, but it's actually what's going on is a giant S-curve. So a whole bunch of pretty big S-curves, that integrate into a gigantic S-curve. So that's why it's difficult to predict the middle. And I'm not saying for sure we'll hit 20 million vehicles. But it does seem like a good goal to have because that would mean that we're replacing 1% of the global fleet per year. And it's difficult to say that we're -- we're really changing the world. If we're not switching out 1% of the global fossil fuel vehicles. I mean, it's -- I'm not sure that we can make that argument unless we change at least 1% of the vehicles per year. So that's where the two -- the 20 million vehicle per year comes from. It's like 1% of 2 billion vehicles, which is the global fleet currently. The global fleet is growing, so probably will grow a bit bigger in the future. It's hard to say. It's like on map an S-curve to a $20 million -- 20 million vehicle target in 2030 and we just slide it around and see what that number looks like. That will give you about as much insight as we have.
Rod Lache:
Okay. And just secondly, if solid-state lithium metal were to become viable, could you just maybe just pass along your perspective on that? And would you be able to repurpose most of what you're putting into place for changes in technology?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, answering the first part, the cell production system is fairly agnostic on anode, cathode, electrolyte subary that kind of thing. It's -- we could change, and we will change and upgrade the -- all aspects of the cell. So -- and we could, for example, make ion phosphate or nickel manganese or something like that. It's quite adaptable. So I wouldn't say it's just too much more about. But the lithium, like a pure lithium anode is not as great as it may sound. Yes. Volumetrically, you're not gaining all that much, because if you got nothing on the -- say on the anode side and you got -- and just play out lithium, it's got to go somewhere, so you could have room for it.
Drew Baglino:
Yes, lithium is less volumetrically dense in the pure metal form than it is intercolated into silicon. So it's kind of hard to understand, but that's the truth. And then, as we showed in our presentation, the total anode cost that we're talking about is only $1 or $2 per kilowatt hour. So the value of, like, removing the anode material isn’t super high either. So, yes, I fully agree, Elon.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. But if it were to announce that a pure lithium anode is the right move, that would simply -- that would be no problem.
Drew Baglino:
Right. Agreed.
Rod Lache:
All right. Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question, please?
Operator:
Our next question will come from Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer. Please, go ahead.
Colin Rusch:
Thanks so much guys. You're talking about in-sourcing a number of processes. Can you talk a little bit about which processes you're moving in-house and the equipment that you're planning to make yourself versus some equipment that you’d be buying from other folks?
Elon Musk:
Sorry, are you talking about the -- for cell manufacturing and selling or -- ?
Colin Rusch:
Cell manufacturing for sure, as well as on the molds that you talked about, but in terms of the CapEx budget that you mentioned earlier, talking about a number of processes coming in-house and which equipment pieces you're planning to make yourself versus buying?
Elon Musk:
Okay. Well, I mean, Tesla is absurdly vertically integrated compared to other auto companies or basically almost any company. We have a massive amount of internal manufacturing technology that we built ourselves. We literally make the machine. In fact, we designed. It's like, okay, what are the things we want to make, design a machine that will make that thing, then we make the machine. This is what -- this makes it quite difficult to copy Tesla, which we're not actually all that opposed to people copying us, but it's quite difficult, because you can't do catalog engineering. You can't just, I’ll pick up the supplier catalog, I’ll get one of those machine, one of that machine, then go out now on Tesla. You have to -- there is no catalog. Look at it. So we made the machine, that made the machine, that made the machine. It gets -- no, no, we don't want to get carried away here. And quite frankly, we would like to outsource less. That would be great. Because then if we get outsource -- if we take something that we're doing and outsource, then we could take those people and we're going to have them do something else. But, yes, it's like we're just making a crazy amount of machinery internally. This is -- Tesla is not well understood. If you just walk around the factory, you could just get a sense for it. And, yes, I don't know if this is like a smart move, but I just know like, hey, if we're trying to make progress and nobody's got the machines that we need, we've got to make it. So we do.
Colin Rusch:
Okay. And then the second question is really around, just the balance sheet has really changed. You guys have run awfully lean and you've got a lot more cushion at this point. And, obviously, there's opportunities around insurance to drive out some of the cost of ownership as well as financials. How are you guys thinking about that as you move into trying to accelerate demand a little bit and your ability to leverage your access to capital and enable some of those other products? Is that changing from where you've been in the past?
Elon Musk:
Yes, I mean something like insurance is a good example of a product that's basically made by our internal applications team. So, we made the insurance product and connect it to the car, look at the data, calculate the risk. This is all internally -- there's basically internal software application. It's pretty low capital, but it has very high return. I don't know. We're trying to spend money at the fastest rate that we can possibly spend it and not waste it. That's our current plan and so it's quite hard to spend money without wasting it, or just -- we're like really just trying to not waste too much of it, frankly. We will certainly waste some of it, but trying to waste -- not to waste too much of it, this is very difficult. But otherwise, we just try to spend money as quickly as possible in a way that is sensible and yields more value than it can cost.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question will come from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Adam Jonas:
Hey, Elon. A question on LiDAR. If LiDAR were totally free, would you want to use it in your cars near-term? Would that tech significantly help Tesla on the training of your neural network for FSD?
Elon Musk:
I mean totally free, probably not. I think probably -- I think even if it was free, we wouldn't put it on.
Adam Jonas:
Okay. Let's follow-up then. Amazon appears to be investing and building an autonomous or electric transport network of some ilk through some organic investments, but also Zuk, Aurora, Rivian, et cetera. What advice would you give Jeff Bezos in his endeavor?
Elon Musk:
Well, I don't know how much he cares about this, but I guess, he sure is investing a lot of money in. I mean I think you obviously need to vote for -- if you have to care a lot about autonomy, you need to focus on vision because the entire road system is based on past optical. So you have to sell past optical for to have a self-driving system that is generally a solution. And once you solve pass optical, you've solved self-driving. So, why bother with anything else?
Adam Jonas:
Thank Elon.
Elon Musk:
Welcome.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. We'll go to the next question please.
Operator:
Our next question will come from Pierre Ferragu with New Street Research. Please go ahead.
Pierre Ferragu:
Hey thanks for taking my question. A very simple one. You haven't talked that much about like the Cybertruck today. And I was wondering how like the ramp of that product is looking like? When we should see the product hitting the road? And how fast do you expect to ramp volumes? Then I have a quick follow-up.
Elon Musk:
Sure. I was in the studio actually on -- last Friday with Frans and the team just going over the -- just some improvements to the Cybertruck. Generally, with -- it sounds like we really aim to make the car that is delivered better than the car that is unveiled. Because it always drive me crazy, car companies would unveil these awesome looking cars, like, great, you can't wait until they make that. And then the actual make is like much worse, but it's just -- it's like what is the point? So man, we always want to make the car that we deliver be better than the car we unveil. And that's the goal with the Cybertruck. So, there's like a lot of small improvements compared to what was unveiled. I think it's going to be better than what we showed. And yes, it's cool. Like it's very made in Austin. So depending on completing that factory. And there are obviously new technologies with the high hardness kind of armored exoskeleton. This is -- never been done before, so there'll probably be some challenges along the way. And obviously, something that's extremely high hardness and difficult to scratch or dent is also difficult to form. So it's -- there's manufacturing challenges there. That's why it's so cleaner. Although it also looks good, I think, from a cleaner standpoint. Yes. If it goes well, we'll be able to do some Cybertruck deliveries towards the end of next -- towards the end of next year, yes. So it's difficult to predict. I would say there's probably a lot of deliveries in 2022, and some deliveries towards the end of next year, if things go well.
Pierre Ferragu:
Okay. And now I'm trying to get a sense of how next year is going to look like. So if I look at your production capacity at the end of this year, it's going to be almost 850,000 units on an annualized basis. And you're going to increase capacity in Shanghai, open Berlin. You say today you would open Austin as well. So you're probably going to end the year above 1 million units. And so am I right thinking next year we should expect to deliver like somewhere like between 840,000 and 1 million cars during the year?
Drew Baglino:
Yes. We'll...
Elon Musk:
Go ahead, Drew.
Drew Baglino:
Yes, we'll provide guidance on 2021 after next earnings call.
Elon Musk:
I mean, it's in that vicinity. Yes. We’re not far off.
Pierre Ferragu:
Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question will come from Dan Levy with Crédit Suisse. Please go ahead.
Dan Levy:
Hi. Good evening. Thank you. Just wanted to start with a question on the quarter. Zach, maybe you could give us a sense of where directionally Model Y and China Model 3 gross margin was in the quarter relative to Fremont Model 3? And then just a little more color on the gross margin in the quarter. Was this just purely a function of higher volume? Or was there also FSD revenues? Just puts and takes on the gross margin in the quarter.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Sure. On your question about FSD, there was a small amount of that deferred revenue release. It's not particularly material in the $10 million range for the quarter. With respect to product margins, what we're seeing across the board is just continued reduction in cost, really across every product. Shanghai continues to make good progress there. Model Y cost is also coming down quite quickly as we ramp that. But we've guided in the past that Model Y cost should be roughly equivalent to the Model 3 built in Fremont costs. It's not quite there, and it's also a bit of a moving target as Model 3 Fremont cost comes down, Model Y also has to come down with that. But we're generally seeing strength in Shanghai margin strength in Model Y margins. And not too far off of this, we're seeing strength in Model 3 Fremont and S and X margins. So overall, for the quarter, I think it was quite a good story for the products.
Dan Levy:
Great. Thanks. And then just as a follow-up, I wanted to ask about your strategy in Europe. And I think your strategy generally has been, you cut costs and that allows you to cut price and you can generate the extra volume. And I think that's what we're seeing in China and the use of LFP, that's a good example. So once you ramp in Berlin, what's the reasonable expectation of what pricing might look like in Europe? And how flexible are you going to be on pricing to generate incremental reg credit? So margins out of the gate that are a little low, but are then used for the reg credits that help to offset that.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. But what I think, I would say generally to the question is, I mean, we've been in a position for sometime now where we are prioritizing where in the world we send our production. And there's different factors to that depending upon when different product changes are made, what the logistics routing look like, different things going on in different markets. But we are in a position where we need to prioritize. I mean, what we're trying to do as fast as we possibly can is get production up higher, so that we're not in a position of needing to prioritize again. There are -- yes, I think that gets at the sentiment of your question.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let's go to next question, please.
Operator:
Our next question will come from Gene Munster with Loup Ventures. Please go ahead.
Gene Munster:
Good evening. A question on Semi. If you could just walk us through the development of Megachargers, platoon and maybe just how you think about autonomy for Tesla Semi? And what is -- how you envision it impacting the broader trucking industry beyond just EV?
Elon Musk:,:
Jerome Guillen:
Yes. We continue the development of the Semi. And in particular, Megachargers, we realized that 350-kilowatt or so that we might be looking for cars is not going to be enough for Semi. So we're looking for something much more powerful than that, that can achieve essentially charging as fast the Semi as during a break, during your driving time so that you can drive until the next break, yes. So there is no usable or efficient time wasted for charging the Semi. That's the goal. We're working with other parties to make sure that there is a standard infrastructure that will be able to be deployed for all customers. Yes. Probably, all I can say at this point, yes. We're not working on...
Elon Musk:
Sorry, go ahead.
Jerome Guillen:
Just we're not working in isolation. Yes, we're trying to -- we have to invent it because it doesn't exist. But we're trying to invent something that could be helpful for everybody.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Just a note on the sort of Semi. The Semi does consume a lot of cells. So it's, four to six times more than a passenger vehicle, 5-ish times. So if we are cell-constrained, it is -- it kind of -- it's difficult to ramp up the Semi because there's no cells. So we need to solve the cell constraint before ramping Semi to significant volume. That's the only real constraint on Semi's progress. And just we found over and over again, we just kept running into cell production limitations. And then we're just taking things out of one pocket and putting them in another. So we just need more cells, so that we can do more stationary storage, more vehicles, more vehicle lines. We need more cells.
Gene Munster:
It makes sense. A question just, as you think about -- you've talked about robotaxi and how you think that's going to impact kind of humans moving around. How do you think about Semi impacting freight longer term? I mean, is this something that is nice to have and a complement to all of your tech in new markets? Or do you think that this could be a material business?
Elon Musk:
I think, it's very material for sure. I mean, really long-term, all transport will go autonomous. Yes. Horses are like autonomous. But all transport will go autonomous. Yes. So increase some way. So it will be pretty significant.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
The technology that we're putting in Semi is identical to what we're putting in the other vehicles.
Elon Musk:
Yes. It's just bigger and more motors.
Gene Munster:
Thank you.
Operator:
Our next question will come from Ben Kallo with Baird. Please go ahead.
Ben Kallo:
Hey, thanks for taking my question. Elon, what do you think the biggest structural issue is with the, let's call it, old school OEMs or one or two of the structural issues for them by getting their act together and catching up with you? And then you mentioned what you -- we want the world to look like ahead of us. What do you envision that? Is it like just Tesla or Tesla and Rivian or what? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Well, I do think there will be other car companies. I don't think we're going to be the only one. So I mean, the things that -- like what other car companies do even in the auto segment is quite a small subset of what Tesla is. So Tesla, we design and build. We're very vertically integrated. So we're designing and building so much more of the car than other OEMs who will largely go to the traditional supply base and like I call it, catalog engineering. So it's not very adventurous and it basically ends up like older products end up looking the same because they're going to the same suppliers. So I mean, to the degree that you inherit legacy components, you inherit the legacy limitations and cost structure. And so you need to make new ingredients, new parts, and then you need -- then there's no machine to make those parts. So you have to make the machine that makes the part. So Tesla is like -- we're probably -- we might be, in order of magnitude, more vertically integrated than other car companies. And if we're not now, we certainly will be. And then we also we also have to create our sales and service and distribution system, and I don't know, something on the order of 40 countries, somewhere it will be over 100 countries, whereas, the other car companies do not own their sales and service and distribution. So they kind of assemble parts from a supply basin and then hand them to a dealer base. So it's just like -- it's not just -- it's like comparing sales to a car company like just comparing just really one facet or dimension of Tesla, we're like maybe 10% in common with other car companies.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Lets go to the last question please.
Operator:
And our final question today will come from Philippe Houchois with Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Philippe Houchois:
Yes, thank you for taking my questions. I've got 2. The first one for me is, I tried to understand your business model for stationary storage. Have your thoughts on it. I mean there are 2 broad directions. One is selling hardware, which is a bit of a cost-plus business. And I'm just wondering if there's an opportunity where Tesla could actually share into the savings that utilities in particular, could be able to achieve in like grid stabilization. The information I was able to get on your business in Australia a few years ago suggest that given the savings that are achieved, your hardware could have been sold at a higher price. I'm just wondering if you have some share views on where the business already is going.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think you're probably right about that. I mean, RJ and Zach, what do you guys think?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I mean, we're already seeing this in Australia, where we're seeing behind-the-meter aggregation that is providing grid services back to the grid, which effectively reduces the price to the customer and reduces the prices for the grid operator. So you're seeing this trend happening across the globe. And it's going to be at the residential level as well as the wholesale level. So Megapack on one end and then PowerWall on the other side, those 2 working together in tandem and the software layer on top of it, Autobidder being that, that really is going to help make the grid more efficient using the hardware platform and software together.
RJ Johnson:
And just a point of clarification, like that the large power plant in -- largest battery power plant in Australia, like we continue to operate that power plant and generate revenue in the market. So whether we could have sold it from or less, like we're continuing to make money off of that power plant.
Philippe Houchois:
Okay. Thank you. And the follow-up question I had was, during the Battery Day, you talked about this cell vehicle integration approach. It's very interesting. And when I look at that -- when I think about it, it looks like this means that the skateboard designed the Tesla Pioneer that many of your followers are using is going to become obsolete? Or am I not thinking about it the right way?
Elon Musk:
It will be obsolete long term, yes. Good. I mean..
Philippe Houchois:
Are you talking -- yes?
Elon Musk:
I mean several years from now. Now it's not like existing cars still having value. It's just that, that if you have -- if you have -- if you have a structural pack, where the pack is contributing structural value to the car because of like the sort of like the composite honeycomb effect of shared transfer between upper and lower fleet, then anything that doesn't do that is going to have to duplicate hardware. It's going to weigh more. It's going to cost more. And then the same goes forward the front and rear castings. To be frank, we're trying to make the car like you'd make a toy. If you had a toy model car, I would -- and then it's got to be real cheap and look great, how do you make that? You'll cast it. And that's how it's done. It would be absurd to make it up of tiny little pieces of stamp metal joined in complex ways. So it's sort of a natural thing to do. And then the same goes for using the energy storage, the battery as a structure, which is done for aircraft wings and for rockets. The early rockets in aircraft, they had a separate error shelf from propellants or fuel tanks, and then they realized that doesn't make sense. And you've got to integrate. You've got to have your fuel tank in wing shape and you got to have your propelling tanks in the shape of the body of the rocket, for example. You don't want to put a box on a box, basically, which over many years made like basically uncompetitive to have an aircraft that has separate fuel tanks from the wing. The wings need to be fuel tank. But like, I wouldn't think of this as like it's like an overnight transition. It's several years. But like I said, over time, it just would be competitive to have a different architecture, in my opinion.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Unfortunately, this is all the time we have for the Q&A today. I appreciate all your great questions, and we'll speak to you again in about three months. Thank you. Goodbye.
Elon Musk:
Thank you.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by and welcome to Tesla’s Q2 2020 Financial Results Q&A and Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director for Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Sherry, and good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Tesla’s second quarter 2020 Q&A webcast. I’m joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other Executives. Our Q2 results were announced at about 1:15 PM Pacific Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During the call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you. First of all, I'd like to thank the Tesla team for exceptional execution in the second quarter despite tremendous difficulties. They've done an incredible job, and it's an honor to work with such a great team. I mean, there were so many challenges, too numerous to name, but they got it done, and just what a great group to work with, like I said, it's just an honor to work with such a great team. And as a result, we were able to achieve our fourth consecutive profitable quarter, and although the automotive industry was down about 30% year-over-year in the first half of the year, we managed to grow deliveries in the first half of the year. So despite that massive industry decline, we actually went up. We're also very excited to announce that we're going to be building our next Gigafactory in Texas. It's going to be right near Austin. It will be about -- I'll just go into a bit of detail on this, and then I'm sure there'll be a lot of questions. But the location is five minutes from Austin International Airport and 15 minutes from Downtown Austin, and it's about 2,000 acres, and we're going to make it a factory that is going to be stunning. It's right on the Colorado River. So we're actually going to have a boardwalk where there'll a hiking and biking trail. It's going to basically be an ecological paradise. Birds in the trees, butterfly, fish in the stream, and they will be open to the public as well. So not closed and only Tesla. So if anyone is interested in looking at Giga Texas, with engineering, production, whatever the case may be, please let us know. This is -- we're going to be doing a major factory there. And it's also where we'll be doing Cybertruck there, the Tesla Semi. And we'll be doing Model 3 and Y for the eastern half of North America. Now at the same time, I want to say, we will continue to grow in California. But we expect California to do Model S and X for worldwide consumption and 3 and Y for the western half of North America. And then we think probably also the Tesla Roadster, a future program, would also make sense in California. So I think this is a nice split between Texas and California. And just to emphasize, we'll continue to grow in California, but we'll be creating a massive factory and Cybertruck and Semi programs in Texas. And I also want to just do a shout out to Tulsa, and just say thank you very much to the Tulsa team, the economic development team and the governor, really, I was super impressed. The whole Tesla team is super impressed, and we will, for sure, strongly consider Tulsa for future expansion of Tesla down the road. Let's see, is there anything more I want to say about? There's a lot of information. So anything, guys? All right. Well, I'm sure they have lots of questions. We've already started work on the facility, so some initial construction work. So it's already underway, started this weekend. Let's see, moving on to other subjects, Solar. We recently adjusted the pricing of our retrofit solar. So Tesla Solar is the lowest cost solar in the United States. And we added the lowest cost guarantee and a money-back guarantee. So we're very confident that people will have our solar product, whether it's the Solar Retrofit or Solar Roof. Our Solar is now 30% cheaper than the U.S. average. After the Federal Tax Credit, Tesla Solar now costs $1.49 per watt. And it's very simple, highly automated single-click experience. So definitely, think about Tesla, whether you want a new roof or Tesla Solar Roof or you want Solar on your existing roof either way, we're the company to go to. And then you also get a Powerwall and have energy independence and be your own utility. So I think that product is really coming together and it's only going to get better later this year. So just very excited about that business potential. On the additional technology stuff, we introduced the first production car with more than 400 miles range. So the current Tesla Model S now has an EPA-certified range of 402 miles. I mean, you basically can drive from L.A. to San Francisco nonstop and still have some miles left over when you arrive. And this is at highway speed. So you don't have to anything drive slowly or anything drive -- you can just drive normally and go very long distances. And then for full self-driving, we launched traffic lights and stop signs and we continue to improve that to make them more robust. And we're currently testing full self-driving software for intersections and city streets and narrow streets. So I personally tested the latest Alpha build of the full self-driving software when I drive my car. And it is really, I think, profoundly better than people realize. Yes, really profound. It's like amazing. So it's almost getting to a point where I can go from my house to work with no interventions, despite going through construction and widely varying situations. So this is why I'm very confident about full self-driving functionality being complete by the end of this year. It's because I'm literally driving it. In conclusion, I'd like to again say thanks for all the hard-work of the Tesla team, achieving our first full year of profitability in the company history. It was incredibly difficult. And just as a result of the hard-work of a lot of people from Tesla worldwide. And yes, just think about the next 12 to 18 months, we'll have 3 new factories in place. Things are looking great with Giga Berlin, and we'll have Cybertruck, Semi, Roadster, Full Self-Driving. There's so much to be excited about. It's really hard to kind of fit into this call. But the sheer amount of hardcore engineering, especially on the autonomy and the manufacturing engineering front is mind blowing. And then, of course, there's Factory Day, which is coming up pretty soon. And I think that's really going to surprise people by just how much there is to see. So with that, thanks, again, for your support on our long-term mission. And we're looking forward to having a great journey with you, to create amazing products and continue scaling it. And, yes, this is -- I think, I've never been more optimistic or excited about the future of Tesla and the history of the company. Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And I think our CFO, Zachary Kirkhorn, has some remarks as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks, Martin. I want to start by thanking our employees, customers and suppliers for your support over the last quarter. In particular to the Tesla team, I couldn't be more impressed with the hard work and the resiliency that you all have shown. On net income, overall, as Elon mentioned, we achieved our fourth sequential quarter of profitability. This is despite a significant impact to our financials as a result of suspended operations of our U.S. factories and field operations around the world. To ensure the business remains healthy, we took temporary action to reduce costs, including expenses related to personnel and non-critical patent projects. The direct cost savings -- or the direct cost impact of the temporary shutdown was largely offset by these cost savings actions. Although, the cost were concentrated in COGS and the cost reductions were in both COGS and operating expenses. On automotive gross margin excluding regulatory credits is this reduced sequentially from 20% to 18.7%. This sequential reduction is fully attributed to idle capacity charges and lower operational efficiency, due to the various shutdowns. Despite these charges, we continue to make progress, reducing our costs, particularly on Model Y in Fremont, and Model 3 in Shanghai. Given the global macroeconomic context, we made the decision in Q2 to pass-through savings to customers around the world on some of our products. With the release of stoplight and stop sign recognition and response, we recognized $48 million of deferred revenue in the period. The full profit impact on our P&L is less than half of this, due to costs associated with FSD computer retrofits in the field. Regulatory credit revenue increased sequentially to $428 million. While difficult to forecast precisely, our best estimate of 2020 credit revenue is roughly double that of 2019. Services and other margin improved yet again, marking the fifth sequential quarter of improvement. In the Energy business, our Megapack product achieved its first quarterly profit. We remain production-constrained in this business and are continuing to work towards building additional capacity. And our solar installation business was impacted by permit office closures, limiting installation volume. Stock-based comp increased from Q1 to Q2. This is driven almost entirely by an expense related to the next tranche of the CEO grant, as well as early vesting of the first tranche, which is reflected in SG&A within operating expenses. On cash flows, our cash balance increased to our highest level yet of $8.6 billion, which included free cash flows of over $400 million. This is a strong result on its own, despite an increase in capital expenses associated with Shanghai and Berlin, as well as movements in working capital. A few things to note on working capital, particularly accounts receivables. While our AR balance is usually about 20% of revenue, it can fluctuate depending upon a number of factors. First, overall, less than 30% of our receivables is associated with new car sales. Second, due to payment terms associated with financing and enterprise customers, settlement time lines for certain methods of cash payments and geographic mix of our deliveries, our cash balance and associated receivables are impacted significantly by how many cars are delivered in the final weeks and days of the quarter. Third, roughly 40% of the balance is attributed to payment terms on regulatory credit sales and statutory EV incentive programs, both of which have been increasing. Customer deposits reduced slightly as well. Note that as we transition to lower order fees across the world, the average deposit per order will continue to reduce driving down this balance. As we look forward, Tesla was able to navigate through Q2 due to our agile and dynamic culture. We will continue to appropriately manage our cash flows through cost optimization and close working capital management. This is key as we remain focused on expanding production, scaling our operations and preparing for the launch of three new factories over the next 1.5 years.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let's go to questions from institutional investors first. The question number one is, as Tesla continues its journey towards the long-term goal of selling 20 million units per year, what are the most important vehicle programs that will drive volume growth over the next three to five years beyond Model 3, Y and the Cybertruck? Cheaper, smaller versions of 3 and Y? Or region-specific vehicles? Or anything else?
Elon Musk:
I don't think we can comment on our detailed product roadmap beyond what's announced because I think we want to reserve that for product launches. But it would be reasonable to assume that we would make a compact vehicle of some kind and probably a higher capacity [indiscernible] vehicle of some kind. These are likely things at some point. But I do think there's a long way to go with 3 and Y and with Cybertruck and Semi. So it's a long way to go with those. I think we'll do the obvious things.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. The second question from institutional is, what is your vision for software at Tesla? What opportunities do you see from monetizing the installed base other than by FSD?
Elon Musk:
Right now, by far, FSD is just overwhelmingly the most important thing. I think the upgrading of the fleet to full-self driving, especially with an over-the-air software update. I mean, we go down as the biggest asset value increase in history as a step change. Maybe there's something bigger, but it certainly would be one of the biggest -- I can't think of anything bigger. So overnight, 1 million -- depending on exactly on when it happens and when it's allowed in various regulatory jurisdictions, you have like at least a few million cars, suddenly becoming five times more valuable or something like that. Certainly five times higher utility. They go from like 12 hours a week of utility, something like that or [indiscernible] to 60, something like that. So, everything else is pretty small by comparison. Now, when things do become full self-driving, so what are we going to do in the car? Well, I guess we're probably going want to do productivity and entertainment of some kind. Or maybe play games and do work. That's in the future. We're already putting some games and stuff on the car, just for fun.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, we have been experimenting on that. So, FSD remains, by far and away, the biggest opportunity in the near-term. But we're putting the plumbing in place to be ready to scale other areas when the time is right. So, premium connectivity subscription is something that we've put in place. And the ability to upgrade your vehicle through the app, for example, on Acceleration Boost or upgrading a Standard Range Model 3 to a Standard Plus, adding rear-heated seats. So, these are things that we have and we're continuing to get feedback from the field and other things that we can launch and we'll trickle those in with time.
Elon Musk:
Yes. But they're all very tiny compared with like the step change to full self-driving depending upon how you calculate it is probably worth at least $100,000 per car. So, it's a lot of software you have to sell in the App Store or whatever, yes.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The third question is also about Autopilot. What are the most important upcoming self-driving milestones? And how do you think about timing?
Elon Musk:
Well, the actual major milestone that's happening right now is really a transition of the autonomy system of the cars like AI, if you will, from thinking about things in -- like two and a half feet. It's like think -- things like isolated pictures and doing image recognition on pictures that are [partially] [ph] correlated in time, but not very well and transitioning to kind of a 4D where it's like -- which is video essentially. You're thinking about the world in three dimensions and the fourth dimension being time. So, that architectural change, which has been underway for some time but has not really been rolled out to anyone in the production fleet, is what really matters for full self-driving. So, what we've been doing, thus far, is really just things like 2D -- mostly 2D and like I said, not well correlated in time. So, just hard to convey just how much better a fully 4D system would work -- does work. It's capable of things that if you just look -- looking at things as individual pictures as opposed to video -- basically, like you could go from like individual pictures to surround video. So, it's fundamental. So, the car will seem to have just like a giant improvement. [Indiscernible] probably rolling out later this year. We'll be able to do traffic lights, stop, turns, [trust] [ph], everything, pretty much. And then it will be a long march of nines, essentially. How many nines of reliability are okay. So it's definitely way better than human, but how much better than human does need to be. So that's actually going to be the real work. There's just a massive amount of work with each, kind of, order of magnitude of reliability. But you'll see it happen. And if you plot the points on the curve, it would be kind of [up-ish[ ph]] where it's headed. AI, in general, I think, is something -- I've been saying this, banging this AI drum for a decade, we should be concerned about where AI is going. The people I see being the most [wrong] [ph] about AI are the ones who are very smart, because they can't imagine that a computer could be way smarter than them. That's the flaw in their logic. They're just way dumber than they think they are.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the next question from institutional investors is. Please, may you update us on Alien Dreadnought? How has your thinking evolved and what is needed in order to get closer to fundamental physical limits?
Elon Musk:
Well, we bring a massive amount of effort into manufacturing engineering, the machine that makes the machine. There's probably 1,000%, maybe 10,000% more engineering required for the factory then for the product itself. So we're certainly making progress. I mean, battery and powertrain factory, Gigafactory in Nevada is, you know, alien dreadnought version 0.5, something like that, starting to approach version 1. We're getting way better at making cars. You can see that in Giga Shanghai. You'll see that even more with Berlin. And we're really changing the design of the car in order to make it more manufacturable. The fundamental architecture of Model Y will be different in Berlin, it may look the same, but the internals will be quite different and fundamentally more efficient architecturally than what we've done to date. Drew, would you like to add to that?
Drew Baglino:
Yes. I was going to expand on that. I think part of the Alien Dreadnought concept is not just automation, but minimizing the number of process steps and complexity involved in the manufacturing system, which involves really integrating design and manufacturing across from like when the raw materials enter the factory to the finished goods exit. And we're learning so much through doing that.
Elon Musk:
Vertical integration is extremely important to this. But the supply chain, if you put like a GPS tracker on a molecule from when it got mined to when it was in a usable product, it would look insane. It would be like, wow, it went around the world like six times. So with vertical integration, maybe you can only go around the world once. It would be a huge improvement, or not even like half -- I think, I get vertical integration in litigation an order of magnitude improvement. So yes. And its -- do you want to Drew...
Drew Baglino:
Yes. I think the focus for us is increasing CapEx efficiency. This is something that we've been working very hard for the past 3 years. And you can see that we can build new factories for less amount of money and much faster. Those things go together.
Elon Musk:
It's a better factory for less money in less time.
Drew Baglino:
Yes. Less money means less time. So that's a great advantage. And also reducing this -- and there still is a lot, the amount of inefficiencies. We want every operation to add value to the vehicle; value, meaning moving the atoms closer to the final state. So we do not want any robot that just moves things.
Elon Musk:
Or in fact, it's like we want to be super respectful of people's labor. If we're asking somebody to do something, are we sure it's useful? Are we asking them to spend their timing a way that is respectful of their time? But it's like, wow, the like, the potential for improvement is tremendous. But it's I just want to be clear. At Tesla, we love manufacturing. It's awesome. And I really think more smart people should be working on manufacturing.
Drew Baglino:
We want more people. We don’t find enough people. People are interested in designing new lines and trying to do things different, Tesla's got a job for you. And now we've got jobs everywhere. It's not only in California. Now we've got just in China, in Berlin, in Austin, Texas and in California. So there's plenty of exciting places. And all these places will do original work and challenging meaningful work.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Absolutely. It's actually extremely exciting and fulfilling to design new production systems. And I think that for some reason, I kind of got a bad rep, especially in the U.S. for a long time. And I think people didn't think that manufactured -- they sort of put manufacturing is like, oh, this is for some boring, just making copies, whatever. But actually, there's far more opportunity for innovation in manufacturing than in the products itself, order magnitude. So like if there's one thing that comes out of this call, it's like, hey, if you want to help us invent amazing, new manufacturing techniques and have input into the product itself, it's not like you just get touch the product and say, hey, make this product and it's kind of a lousy design. If you're manufacturing, you get to change the product design, and say, hey, this product, you're asking your manufacturers dumb. Like, great, let's fix it. So it has, if you work on manufacturing engineering, but you don't just get force fed a sandwich. You get to change the product design. So it's super exciting. And we evolve the lines even after they're both this rapid evolution of the production system. So…
Drew Baglino:
And there's nothing more rewarding than going from 0 cars an hour to 5,000 cars a week or 1,000 cars a day.
Elon Musk:
Yes. So the long-term sustainable advantage of Tesla, I think, will be manufacturing.
Martin Viecha:
And the last question from institutional investor is, how many vehicles can Tesla produce in Texas?
Elon Musk:
Well, right now, 0. But long term, a lot.
Drew Baglino:
It's our biggest property.
Elon Musk:
Yes, it's biggest property, true.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. And now we can shift to retail investor questions on Say.com. The first one is, Tesla Energy seems widely ignored by Wall Street, despite Elon comments about growth rate exceeding automotive. Could Tesla share more detail on calendar planned projects to help investors better understand the business outlook? How disruptive is Tesla's Autobidder technology?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I can't emphasize. I think long term, Tesla Energy will be roughly the same size as Tesla Automotive. So, I mean, the Energy business collectively is bigger than the automotive business. So you feel like, how big is the Energy sector? Bigger than automotive. And in order to achieve a sustainable energy future, we have to have sustainable energy generation, which I think is going to be primarily solar and followed by wind. And those are intermittent. So you need to have a lot of batteries to store the solar energy, because the wind doesn't always blow and the sun doesn't always shine. So there's like three elements of the sustainable energy future
Drew Baglino:
Yes. I think the Megapack has represented itself and is an integrated rapidly deployable grid tied storage battery of megawatt hour scale. We're working with utilities, large and small, not just utilities, but also just like microgrid and project developers of all type, and building our own projects where it makes sense. And there's a lot of demand for the product, and we're growing the production rates as fast as we can for that product. And then on Autobidder, Autobidder is basically autopilot for grid-type batteries. It's an autonomous energy market participation system that does high-frequency trading in short...
Elon Musk:
That's a bad word.
Drew Baglino:
Sorry.
Elon Musk:
How should free instant energy called front running. We're not doing that.
Drew Baglino:
Not doing anything like that. No, it's ensuring that the battery is doing everything it can to manage the grid intermittency of the renewals -- renewables and just grid intermittency of all kinds. I mean, people turn their lights on and off, power plants turn on and off, factories ramp up and down and batteries are great to solve those problems.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Its just grid stabilization at the most heightened level. So it just shows that things are super smooth. It's like a UPS, uninterruptible power supply of a normal size. But just ensure that this grid has smooth sailing. And then the batteries, the computers like all interact with each other and make sure that they're working together to make the grid smooth. And this can be done with the Powerwalls and the Megapacks and the Powerpacks all working together and interacting with third-party systems as well.
Drew Baglino:
Yes. Essentially, are distributed. It does both.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Drew Baglino:
Yes. I mean, we've…
Elon Musk:
It’s just necessary in order to solve the sustainable energy problem.
Drew Baglino:
Yes, you can't plan power plants on the hourly scale in a renewable world. You need to optimize them on a minute-by-minute scale, and that's what we're doing.
Elon Musk:
Yes. The real limitation on Tesla growth is cell production at affordable price. That's the real limit. So that's why we're going to talk about a lot more about this on Battery Day because this is a fundamental scaling constraint. And any part of that supply chain or pricing at the cell level will be the limiting factor. So whatever maybe an error from mining to refining, those many steps that are refining to cathode and analog formation, cell formation, whatever the truck point is, that will set the growth rate. And so we expect to expand our business with Panasonic, with CATL, with LG, possibly with others. And there's a lot more to say on that front on Battery Day.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the second question is, now that it's time to bring the Tesla Semi to volume production, can you share more detail on production plans? What weekly production rate is considered volume production? And when does Tesla expect to reach that rate?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. So we'll start production next year, as we announced it before. I'm personally very excited about the project. I can't wait. We do have a few trucks that keep driving around and like keep delivering cars. But we're going to accelerate that. I want to be clear that the first few units, we will use ourselves, Tesla to carry our own freight, probably mostly between Fremont and Reno, which is a fantastic test route. We're going to prove that we have very good reliability. And so far, the early units do have it, but we'll do that at a larger scale. And we have also promised some early units to some long term, very patient and supportive customers, and we'll do that. Now we have more sales coming up in next year, as Elon just pointed out. So we can increase the diversity of the portfolio. It didn't make sense up to now to do it. But we'll be ready. And that's maybe a little biased. I'm very excited about this. And we have a lot of very unique technology that we're always dreaming about that we will be putting into that Semi. It will be just awesome. Yes.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And there’s like two general classes of cell. There's like iron phosphate, and then the nickel based, the nickel based cells have higher energy density so longer range. Obviously, those are needed for something like Semi, where every, every unit of mass that you add in battery pack you have to subtract in cargo. So it's very important to have a mass efficient and long range pack for four batteries. What we're seeing with our passenger vehicles is that our powertrain efficiency and tire efficiency, drive coefficient like basically all of the things that, like, you know, our HVAC, going to a heat pump, basically our total vehicle efficiency has gotten good enough with Model 3, for example, that we actually are comfortable having an iron phosphate battery pack in Model 3 in China and that that'll be in volume production later this year. So, we think that getting a range that is in the high 200 -- basically, we think you probably getting a range of almost 300 miles with an iron phosphate pack, taking into account a whole bunch of powertrain and other vehicle efficiencies. And that frees up a lot of capacity for things like the Tesla Semi and the other projects so far higher energy density. So, yes, so you have like two supply chains that you can tap into iron phosphate or nickel. We use very little cobalt in our system already and that's -- that may to zero along, so it's basically about nickel.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, Tesla recently decided not to produce Standard 3 Range version of Model Y. No longer offers a Standard Range Model S or X and has announced ramping of the Semi. Does this shift from smaller pack vehicles suggest that Tesla is not battery constrained as in the past? What are the biggest constraints now?
Elon Musk:
Well, I'd just like to reemphasize, any mining companies out there, please mine more nickel. Okay. Wherever you are in the world, please mine more nickel and don't wait for nickel to go back to some long -- some high point that you experienced some five years ago or whatever, go for efficiency. As environmentally friendly, nickel mining at high volume. Tesla will give you a giant contract for a long period of time if you mine nickel efficiently and in an environmentally-sensitive way. So, hopefully, this message goes out to all mining companies. Please get nickel. With regard to passenger vehicles, I think the new normal for Range is going to be just in U.S. EPA terms approximately 300 miles. So, I think people will really come to expect that as some number close to 300 miles as normal. That's a standard expectation because you do need to take into account, like, is it very hot outside or very cold? Or are you driving up into a mountain with a full load? And it's -- people don't want to have -- get to the destination with like 10 miles range, they want some reasonable margins. So, I think 300 is going to be really -- or close to 300 is going to be a new normal. Call it 500 kilometers basically -- roughly.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Next question on insurance. What is the hold up for Tesla Insurance outside of California? Will you release numbers from that part of the business? Will Tesla Insurance be required to participate in the Tesla ride hailing network as a driver?
Elon Musk:
Sure.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. We were joking before the call that we get the quarterly insurance question that -- funsay.com [ph] here. We are working super hard on insurance. I'll go into a little bit more deal here than I have in the past. Currently, we have a product in California, as I've described before, it's been quite well received and I would largely describe it as a fairly standard insurance product with elements of it that are unique to our cars. So you can think of it as a version one of Tesla Insurance…
Elon Musk:
Version 0.9 is it getting at least.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
0.9. What we're working on now is -- we can call it version two, or we can call it the first version of our Telematics product. And so really ultimately where we want to get to with Tesla Insurance is to be able to use the data that's captured in the car, in the driving profile of the person in the car, to be able to assess correlations and probabilities of crash and be able then to assess a premium on a monthly basis for that customer. And what makes this very exciting for us is the amount of data that is available, with the customer's permission to use, is not available on any other product or any other vehicle in the world. So this gives us a unique advantage in terms of information. And we have a decision point here where we could take the California product and replicate that into other states, or we could delay going into additional states and instead put more effort into the Telematics side of this. And we chose the latter. And where we are now is nearly complete with the risk and cost analysis associated with the first version of the Telematics product. We hope to be filing that in a handful of states with regulators very shortly. And assuming that regulatory approvals go smoothly, we hope to have this in a handful of states by the end of the year. And then we'll continue to file for approval in additional states. With regulatory approval there, we'll continue to roll this out nationwide as quickly as we can. And then that product, as we continue to collect more data and reiterate on it, there'll be version two, version three, et cetera, as we continue to refine that.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, at the heart of being competitive with insurance is what is the accuracy of your information. Like are you dealing with -- are you forced to assess people statistically looking in the rear-view mirror Or can you assess people individually, looking ahead with smart projections, and inform the driver that -- how they may reduce their -- what actions they can take to reduce their insurance, as Zach was alluding to, it's like, okay, you're driving too fast, you're on this that, the other thing, it's like if you want to pay more for insurance, you can. But if you want to pay less, then please don't drive so crazy. Then people can make a choice. Like, okay, they want to drive aggressively, in the case, it'll be higher insurance, or they want more capital enter driving and pay less. This was actually very helpful for us to have a feedback loop to see what is driving insurance expense. A lot of it is just -- it's like a little fender bender and the net fender bender because of the way that the body collision repair is being done, it cost like $15,000 or something crazy, and like, and then we can actually adjust the design of the car and adjust how the repair is done to actually have the fundamental cost of solving that problem would be less. So this has helped us under a whole bunch of facility things that we were doing basically without realizing it. But this is a problem with, in general, with insurance is like if the insurance is like, all you can eat, then the feedback loop for improvement is sweet. So this gives us a great feedback for improvement, because it's basically a fundamentally better insurance product. I'd also like to say, I'm inspired of recruiting because if there's one thing I'd like to come out of this call, it's that a lot of great people want to join Tesla. That's the other one thing I'd like to take on this call. And on the insurance front, I want to be clear. We're building a great, like a major insurance company. If you're interested in revolutionary insurance, please join Tesla. I would love to have some high energy actuaries, especially. I have great respect for the actuarial profession. Your guys are great at math, please join Tesla. Especially if you want to change things and you're annoyed by how slow the industry is. This is the place to be. We want revolutionary actuaries.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Sorry. So there was the second part of this question, will Tesla Insurance be required to participate in the Tesla ride-hailing network? And so, I think I've answered this before in prior calls, but by the time the ride-hailing network is available, we will -- Tesla Insurance coverage will be provided to folks who are in this network. It's a different type of insurance because of the use of the car. It's not decided whether third-party insurance versus Tesla Insurance will be required. There might be some things we need to think through there. But Tesla Insurance, at least, will be working, working for the ride-hailing network.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And in the interest of time lets go to the Q&A of analyst from the line.
Operator:
Thank you. Our first question will come from Dan Levy with Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.
Dan Levy:
Hi good afternoon. Thank you. I'll ask a question on quarter and then just a question more broadly on strategy. Just on the quarter, if you could give us an update on gross margin. Was China accretive to gross margin in the second quarter? And give us an idea of how far Model Y gross margin was versus Fremont Model 3? And then just more broadly on strategy, it seems like your approach to in-sourcing is varying by region. You're in-sourcing a lot more in Fremont, but you're relying a lot more on the supply chain in Shanghai. What do you expect your approach to be on in-sourcing when you eventually open up Berlin? And what your Texas factory is going to be? Thank you.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Just to start with the gross margin questions. We did see progress on gross margins in China, and that was despite pricing action that was taken. The factory is still not running at full capacity yet as it continues to ramp. So we think there's think there's a continued opportunity to optimize the cost structure there. Model Y, as we mentioned last quarter, was profitable in its first quarter of production. And despite the inefficiencies that we had due to the shutdown, we did see pretty substantial improvement in the Model Y margin. And as we said before, the Model Y cost structure and Model 3 cost structure will converge. They're not quite there, Model Y is still slightly more expensive than Model 3, and it's not yet at full production. And with Model Y carrying a slightly higher price point, you can kind of back into the math there on the relative gross margins.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean the Shanghai factory is a pretty big factory. And it's continuing to do more and more internally. But it's also -- the thing that's really helping is like there were previously a ton of parts that were made in other parts of the world that were being shipped to Shanghai from every part of the world. And just locally sourcing those components makes a massive difference to the cost of the vehicle. And I mean, the proportion of local sourcing has literally been rising at like 5% to 10% a month, from 40 -- it was like 40% at the beginning this year, something like that, it will be like 80% by the end of this year, maybe more.
Zach Kirkhorn:
There is also a lot -- very strong, very competent and very eager suppliers around the factory in China.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I will say it like this. The suppliers in China have been extremely competitive, possibly the most competitive in the world.
Zach Kirkhorn:
And so far, we're in negotiations with -- for Berlin and we've awarded a lot of business. Also a lot of suppliers in Germany or the rest of Europe that are eager to support the factory in Berlin. Yes.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Well, obviously, Germany has a great automotive industry and supply chain. So, actually, a ton of our suppliers are in Germany within like a few hundred kilometers of the factory.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let’s go to the next question please.
Operator:
Our next question will come from Toni Sacconaghi with Bernstein. Please go ahead.
Toni Sacconaghi:
Yes. Thank you. You mentioned in the slide deck a couple of times that you were pleased with gross margin with PTI margin progress and you expect it to achieve industry-leading operating margins over time. Maybe you could shed a little light on that? Industry-leading for luxury vendors is 8% to 10% PTI. For Porsche, it's smaller, at 17%. For mass market vendors, it's 5% to 8%. What do we think about? And how much, ultimately, do you believe that EV credits will contribute to that margin? Because I know your margin has been 5% over the last 12 months, but it's actually less than 1%, excluding EV credit, so it’s a 4 point contribution right now. How do we think about ultimately what industry-leading margins are? And how much of that you think is coming from EV credits, regulatory credits? And I have a follow-up, please.
Zach Kirkhorn:
Sure. I've mentioned this before in terms of regulatory credit. We manage the business, said differently, we don't manage the business with the assumption that regulatory credits will contribute in a significant way to the future. I do expect regulatory credit revenue to double in 2020 relative to 2019, and it will continue for some period of time, but eventually, the stream of regulatory credits will reduce.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, it's worth telling that we're -- buyers of our car in the U.S. received 0 federal tax credit. Whereas many of our competitors are like, they get a $7,500 pack tax credit. And yet our sales have continued to do well. Yes.
Zach Kirkhorn:
Yes. And so what we see is a continued decline in the cost to produce manufacturing and distribute our cars. That cost curve, even for mature products, like the S and the X, continues to come down as we work on that. Model 3, which is our second most mature product, that continues to come down. You then layer on top of that, as Elon was discussing earlier, the potential for software-based revenue, particularly full self-driving, there's the revenue recognition portion of that, that we have today, that, that will expand as we release more features. And then you can layer on top of that, in the future, revenue from a ride-hail network. Operating expenses continue to come down and become more efficient as a percentage of revenue. There's still incredible opportunity there that we were working on, particularly on how customers interact with the company from sales and service and what their flow is and how we get cars to them. So we continue to see efficiencies there. So in the medium term here, what our modeling shows is in the low teens operating margin level. And I think there continues to drive the opportunity to drive that up. So I hear your point on the 5% and the 1%. We're on a bit of a journey here, and we're continuing to be partner [ph].
Toni Sacconaghi:
Thank you. And if I could just follow-up, Elon, you've talked a lot about the mission of the company in -- and really trying to drive EV adoption globally. So how do you think about that trade-off between driving towards industry-leading profitability, yet trying to make your cars more affordable and broader? It feels like, historically, you've always picked the path of, I'd rather drive more growth and more adoption because ultimately, that's the mission of the company, and we even saw it a little bit this quarter with price reductions, you could have probably kept price where it is, sold some units and had better profits, but that's been an ongoing choice that Tesla, as a company has made. So how do you personally think about that trade-off between, even if you were to get to industry-leading margins, wouldn't you be inclined to give more of that back to drive a greater adoption more quickly?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think we actually achieved both when you factor in autonomy. I think we can go way beyond industry margins and have the car be affordable to more and more people and potentially almost everyone when you're factoring in autonomy. But that was really a mega game changer, giga game changer. Yes. But I mean, it is important for people to distinguish between two things. There's value for money that our product has; and then there's affordability. And even if you rail value for money and have value for money, like infinite, if people don't have enough -- if people do not have enough money in their bank account to buy the car, they simply cannot. So then you used to have this cycle or something that nobody can buy. So it is important to make the car affordable, and we will not succeed in our mission if we do not make cars affordable. Like the thing that bugs me the most about where we are right now is that our cars are not affordable enough. We need to fix that. So we're all making progress in that regard, just sort of steadily gaining progress. So yes, we need to not go bankrupt. Obviously, that's important because that will fail in our mission. But we're not trying to be super profitable either, obviously, profitability is like 1% or something, this 1% or 2%. It's not crazy. Last quarter, it was only like 0.1%. So we want to be profitable. Like I think just we want to be like slightly profitable and maximize growth and make the cars as affordable as possible, and that's what we're trying to achieve.
Martin Viecha :
Thank you. Let’s go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Our next question will come from Emmanuel Rosner with Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Hi, good afternoon. Could you please characterize the current near-term demand environment for your vehicles? These are obviously unusual times. I think back in Q1, you had indicated record backlog, I guess, at the beginning of this past quarter. I haven't seen any specific comments about new orders or backlog in the release today. So, can you give us some color?
Elon Musk:
Demand is not a problem. Definitely not. We do have some production supply chain challenges we're trying to slow right now. For example, the Model Y, we're body casting, obviously, because it's new technology, it's been tricky to maintain rates and keep growing the rate for Model Y casting, which is -- it's a two-piece casting with a bunch -- and there's about half dozen other parts that are added on, that will transition to a one-piece casting. In fact, I'm super excited about this. We're going to have a -- the world's biggest casting press is getting assembled right now actually in Fremont for the Model Y rear body casting. It's enormous and looks awesome. So, it's -- look, the things that are troubling us right now are not demand, that they are just a bunch of firefighting on supply chain and production issues.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Okay. So --
Elon Musk:
Sorry. Yes. Don't worry about demand. That's not the issue.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Okay. So, when you're saying achieving 500,000 deliveries has become more difficult, was it really just a function of the recent shutdowns and some of these supply dynamics?
Elon Musk:
Yes. It's not true at demand. It's really just a production issue. It's been pretty hard when you've got like a global supply chain, and it's kind of whatever the most effective part of supply chain is that sets your rate. I mean the number of rabbits do know how to pull out of a hat for supply chain is insane, team has done an amazing job. So, I think also some of our costs were related to having to use a lot of airplanes to get parts around because of part shortages. So, we'll hopefully use fewer airplanes. That will improve our costs, but demand exceeds supply right now. That's where we are now.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And the last question please.
Operator:
Our last question today will come from Philippe Houchois with Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Philippe Houchois:
Yes. Good afternoon. Thank you. You mentioned a few times the constraint to growth is battery capacity still. And I was hoping you could clarify the scope of the Berlin plans for building right now. Will there be the battery capacity consistence with the amount of assembly volume you expect to come out of the -- ? And if not, would you be able to source, your battery requirements, out of Europe? Or would you have to import batteries from outside Europe to ensure production in Berlin?
Elon Musk:
Okay. We can't say too much about this. Except that, where there will be local cell production and -- that will serve the needs of the Berlin factory. Drew, is there anything? Berlin factory. Drew, is there anything -- yes?
Drew Baglino:
I mean, no, that's straightforward enough. I think just adding to what you said earlier about talent and people, like the same goes in all areas of cell, supply chain, manufacturing materials, design, we are solving this problem. And we -- we're treating it like any other problem that we have solved. We will solve this problem, talented people to join us as we solve this problem.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And like, so my biggest concern for getting our talented people is just probably Berlin, because the labor mobility in Europe is not as low. I would recommend changing this. Like somebody wants to leave and join another company, sometimes they have to spend six months on Garden Leave. It's called garden, hanging out in the garden, basically. And like this is not a good use of people's time. I mean, if they want us to hang out on the garden, that's fine, but they shouldn't have to.
Philippe Houchois:
Thank you.
Elon Musk:
I mean, those are now Europe. We know what we're talking about.
Martin Viecha:
Philippe, do we have a follow-up question?
Philippe Houchois:
No. That’s fine. Thank you very much.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much, everyone, for joining this call, and thank you for all your good questions. And we'll speak to you again in about three months
Elon Musk:
Yes, maybe sooner with battery. Okay, thanks.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to Tesla's Q1 2020 Financial Results and Q&A Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director for Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Sherry, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's First Quarter 2020 Q&A Webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q1 results were announced at about 1:00 p.m. Pacific Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] Before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you. So, Q1 ended up being a strong quarter despite many challenges in the final few weeks. This is the first time we have achieved positive GAAP net income in a seasonally weak first quarter. Even with all the challenges, we achieved a 20% automotive gross margin, excluding regulatory credits while ramping two major products. What we've learned from this is that -- we've obviously learned a lot here. After the Model 3 ramp from three years ago, our new products get run faster and become profitable sooner. In Q1, we produced more Model Ys in the first quarter than Model 3s in Fremont in the first two quarters. Thus far, the Model Y ramp has been even faster than the Giga Shanghai ramp in Q1. Most surprisingly, as otherwise, we are ahead of the schedule that we were ahead of already. Most surprisingly, Model Y was profitable already in its first quarter of production, something we haven't achieved with any product in the past. Regarding Autopilot, we released a new software update for traffic lights and stop signs to Early Access Users in March and to all U.S. customers with Full Self-Driving package just last week. Our cars will not automatically stop at each stop sign or traffic light until the driver gets a confirmation to proceed. I should say that the car is actually capable of much more than this, but we are only exposing functionality that we feel quite good about and where we feel it is probably a safety improvement. We are collecting data from over 1 million intersections every month at this point. This number will grow exponentially as more people get the update and as more people start driving again. Soon, we will be collecting data from over 1 billion intersections per month. All of those confirmations are training under old methods. Essentially, the driver went driving and taking action is effectively labeling -- the labeling reality as they drive and making them better and better. I think this is an advantage that no one else has, and we're quite literally orders of magnitude more than everyone else combined. I think, this is difficult to fully appreciate. It’s the reason I say it's very difficult to have a search engine that competes with Google because everyone is training Google all the time with their searches. So, when you're searching something and you click on a link, you're training Google every time you do that. It's very difficult for any new search engine to compete on that basis. So, all those confirmations of training and all that, and certain cars will be able to drive through an intersection without a confirmation as well as to make turns. And we really feel we're -- I feel extremely confident that it would be possible to do a drive from your home to your office most of the time with no interventions by the end of the year. So, this is -- we can almost do this already with the leading-edge Alpha [indiscernible] driving the car. So let's see. On other technology fronts, we increased the range of model S and X yet again, this time to 391 miles for Model S and 351 miles for Model X. Actually, we said that, actually, the model -- the real Model S range is 400 miles, but when we did the last EPA test, unfortunately, ATA left the car door open and the keys in the car, so the car - and it did this overnight. And so the car actually went into waiting for driver mode and lost 2% of its range. And as a result, it had a 391 test. As soon as the EPA reopens for testing, we will redo the test, and we're actually confident that we will achieve a 400-mile-or-greater range with the Model S. But to be clear, the Model S, for the past two months -- the true range of the Model S for the past two months has been 400 miles. And of course, we're not stopping there. We're looking forward to continuing pushing for improved range over time and improving handling, acceleration and all those details that make Tesla special. For Model Y, we introduced a revolutionary two-piece -- we're underway casting that we are going to be making a single-piece casting later this year, meaning like essentially the rear third of the body is cast as a single piece, which is no casting of the size or complexity has never been done before. In fact, there isn't even anything that is on par with the two-piece casting for the Model Y. So, we're really pushing the envelope on vehicle structural engineering and manufacturing. I'm very excited about this approach as it allows us to reduce the weight of the cast and improve NVH. It's better in every way essentially. For Model Y, we also introduced a revolutionary new heat pump, which allows the car to have a higher range. So Model Y has remarkable range on par with -- in fact slightly better than, I guess, the Model 3 and just despite being a bigger car that weighs more. And the heat pump is a key contributor to that. It is especially excellent at low-temperature driving. So -- and the feedback we're getting from customers who have received the Model Y thus far has been universally positive. We're confident this product will be our best-selling product ever. So in conclusion, and just to -- looking forward, I guess this is a forward-looking statement we are absolutely continuing our Model Y capacity expansion at full speed at both Giga Berlin and Giga Shanghai and here in Fremont when they will let us continue. Localized production in China and in Europe will bring the cost down, making our products even more competitive over time. While many other companies are cutting back on investment, we are doing the opposite. We're absolutely pedal to the metal on new products and expanding the company. And we're really looking forward to being in sometime next year, a truly global manufacturer with major factories in North America, China and Europe and a capacity of well over 1 million units a year. So there's a tremendous amount to look forward to and we can't wait to tell you what's going to happen. Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And now to Zach's opening remarks.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks, Martin and thanks, Elon. I'm very proud of the accomplishments of the Tesla team this past quarter. A few things to highlight and add to what Elon just mentioned. We successfully launched, ramped and demonstrated profitability of the Model Y, as Elon mentioned, significantly ahead of schedule. This is our second large-scale product launch since Model 3 in 2017 and it's evidence to the progress we've made on cost control and ramp efficiency. It's hard to understate the significance of demonstrating profitability of this program in its first quarter of production. Our Shanghai Model 3 margins improved dramatically since Q4 of last year, nearing equivalents of Model 3s built in Fremont. This is despite not yet running at full capacity, while also managing through the production shutdown in early February. We also announced a long-range and performance variant of Model 3 for our road map, which will positively impact ASPs in China. On order rates, we did not experience much of an impact related to the expiration of government incentives at the end of Q4. In fact, we exited the quarter with our highest-ever backlog yet again. Aided by these accomplishments, we are able to achieve our first-ever Q1 profit. Automotive gross margin, excluding the impact of regulatory credits, remained strong for all products, despite charges taken in Q1 associated with production downtime. We continue to make progress on OpEx efficiency, as well as our service and other margins. Our energy business was impacted as well by shutdown activities in Q1 limiting deployments. We also experienced expected launch efficiencies associated with our third version of the Solar Roof, which impacted overall profitability. As I've noted before, we expect regulatory credit sales, which our credits we sell to other carmakers to generally increase with time. This can be seen by the increase from Q1 relative to Q4. And note that most of the credit revenue did not contribute to cash in Q1, and it's reflected in the accounts receivable on the balance sheet. Our free cash flows were impacted by the temporary – by the temporary increase in end of quarter inventory for all our products resulting from the abrupt suspension of production and delivery operations. Had these interruptions not occurred, we were pacing towards a record quarter of deliveries and strong free cash flows. As Elon mentioned, it is extremely important that we remain on track to achieve our long-term plans and technology road map. We are taking the near-term actions required to continue those investments. Model Y in Shanghai and Berlin are proceeding as planned and we're making progress on improving capacity for Model Y in Fremont and Model 3 in Shanghai. In the near term, our Shanghai factory remains operational, contributing an increasing level of cash flows and profitability to the company. In Fremont, we're working towards restarting production as soon as that's possible. We are also continuing to deliver cars that we were unable to deliver at the end of the first quarter. Our vehicle inventory balance increased by 14,000 units at the end of Q1, which was a headwind to free cash flows in Q1, but it's helpful in Q2. Note that one of the most important aspects of Model Y in Fremont and Model 3 in Shanghai is the dramatically improved cash conversion cycle by locally producing and delivering vehicles. While sales and delivery operations have paused in many areas of the world, we are still receiving many online orders, despite inability for our customers to experience the product prior to ordering. However, unavoidably, the extended shutdown in Fremont will have an impact on our near-term financial performance and we will need to work through how quickly we'll be able to ramp production to prior levels. More broadly, we remain focused on ensuring our cash flows are managed appropriately. Working capital management, in particular, raw material inventory is the single most important lever in managing our cash flows during this time. The Tesla team has done a great job here. We've also taken actions to eliminate or reduce non-critical expenses and optional investments while continuing to drive efficiencies throughout the business. Overall, we've modeled many scenarios into 2021 and remain comfortable that we have sufficient liquidity to proceed fully with our most important, long-term investments. It is important to note that Tesla remains an extremely agile and dynamic company, and this is aided by the substantial work we've done over the last year to improve our cost efficiency and productivity. And we have the ability to quickly adjust our spending and planning as required. So thank you again to the Tesla team for success in Q1, and we will turn to questions.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. So we'll take the first questions from institutional investors compiled by Safe Technologies.
A - Martin Viecha:
The first question from institutional investor is, most Tesla owners have yet to purchase or experience FSD, despite most vehicles having all the necessary hardware. What levers could you pull to accelerate adoption and deepen your data advantage? For example, could you consider offering FSD as a premium subscription?
Elon Musk:
I think we will offer Full Self-Driving as a subscription service, but it will be probably towards the end of this year. I should say, it will still make sense to buy FSD as an option as in our view, buying FSD is an investment in the future. And we are confident that it is investment that will pay off to the consumer -- to the benefit of the consumer. In my opinion, buying FSD option is something people will not regret doing.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Agree. And financially, rolling the upfront purchase of your -- of the FSD option into a loan in the vehicle or a lease is – will be the least expensive plan on a monthly basis to own, plus you preserve the option value of increased value of time. So we do understand that some customers who have ownership or have leased their vehicles did not purchase that option upfront. And so this will enable those customers to spread out the cost of ownership of FSD or subscription over time.
Elon Musk:
Yes, absolutely. At a high level, our overall goal is to maximize the area under the curve of customer happiness. That is our goal. And we think that, that's the kind of thing that all companies should try to do. And it's what results in long-term value creation and loyalty – the guest loyalty. So our goal is always really to do the best thing for the customers, and we're confident that if we behave like that, the customers in turn will behave the same way to us.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The second question from investors is, China recently announced changes to its NEV subsidy program that disqualifies Tesla vehicles from benefiting from the subsidies. To what extent is there room for Tesla to lower manufacturing costs in China and pass those savings to buyer, so they can qualify for the subsidy?
Elon Musk:
Yes. So we are making rapid progress on lowering the production costs in China. And we're actually excited to announce on this call that we will be reducing the price of the standard range Model 3 basically tomorrow, China time. So the day after tomorrow, California time, but tomorrow, China time. And there will be a price below the subsidy limit. And we feel confident that that's will still be a vehicle that delivers a good gross margin.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. And on the manufacturing cost portion of the question, the cost of vehicles produced in Shanghai in Q1 is already lower than the cost to produce the Model 3 in Fremont, and there's still significant opportunity left to take costs out. So fixed cost absorption from higher production volumes, which are occurring in Q2 and will occur through the rest of the year were not fully localized on the supply chain yet. And so while a lot of the supply chain is localized, it's not complete, and there's additional opportunities there. And so we'll continue to bring the price down and expand margin -- costs down and expand margin even with this reduction in price that Elon mentioned on the standard range version of the vehicle.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, Andy Grove once said that great companies are improved by crisis. In which way has Tesla improved towards -- or is expected to improve coming out of COVID-19?
Elon Musk:
Well, it has caused us to look closely at our cost structure and to be more efficient as a company. That's one always has to do that in a crisis, and just thinking about our core beliefs and what do we want to do. And we came to a conclusion that at the right move was actually to continue to expand rapidly, continue to invest in the future and in new technologies, even though it is risky. And we've talked to some of our key investors, and they support that approach as well. So I think that there's clearly an uncertain future ahead. It's a bit of a bumpy road. But I think the long-term prospects are extremely good. Anything you guys want to add?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, I agree with Elon. The prioritization on the key projects will enable us to execute more efficiently and faster on them, which I think is great. The other one that I would add is, it's always been our vision at Tesla to improve the customer experience and make that as digital as possible.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Touchless delivery.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, So touchless delivery. Mobile service touchless sales has been something that we've been very focused on and made a lot of progress on.
Elon Musk:
Yes. The Tesla is the only car that you can literally order in less than five minutes on your phone, you can order a car and have it delivered to your doorstep with all the paper and everything done. That's it. Effortless.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And many customers do that.
Elon Musk:
And they're doing it, yes. In fact, a big part of it is just trying to communicate to people that this is something you can do, because normally, buying a car is quite a pain -- for most people, they would rather go to the dentist than buy a new car. Actually, my dentist is very -- but it's really like quite an arduous thing. When the typical retail experience for buying a new car is more painful to people than having a root canal done, then you have to say, well -- and for Tesla, it is completely as easy as ordering something from the Apple App Store or something on Amazon and -- except it's a car. Yes. All right. And then five minutes is a, if you really went fast, I think you could order a car probably in 90 seconds, so.
Martin Viecha:
The next question is from institutional investor is, can you give us a brief preview of the Battery Day by generally highlighting steps Tesla is taking to improve cell energy density and time line for introduction?
Elon Musk:
Yes. Actually, we were just -- we don't want to preempt Battery Day. We want to leave the exciting news for that day, but there will be a lot of exciting news to tell. And I think it would be one of the most exciting days in Tesla's history and we're just trying to figure out the right timing for that. We think probably the right timing will be the -- probably the third week of May. Not giving a firm date, but we think that probably that's the right timing. And depending upon what we're allowed to do, it will either be in California or Texas.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. And the last question from institutional investors, could you please update on progress stores development and commercialization of Full Self-Driving? How much revenue have you recognized so far?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
So there is a couple of things on the financials for Full Self-Driving. And so, currently, in North America, it's sold for $7,000 as an option. We take roughly half of that as revenue, and the other half of it goes into deferred revenue. That's associated with features that will be released with time. Our deferred revenue balance is continuing to grow. It's a little bit over $600 million. And so as we release features with time, at the end of every quarter, we take a look at what features have been released associated value and then we can release that from the deferred revenue into our financials for that quarter. And then cars going forward, once the feature is released, we can recognize that revenue. So we reduce the amount of deferral, and we can recognize that revenue within period. So, I mean, this is one of what we think will be one of the most powerful gross margin levers with time as the feature suite is rolled out.
Elon Musk:
Absolutely. There's also a tremendous amount of untapped potential in the beat out there that could upgrade to turn on Autopilot -- basic Autopilot or Full Self-Driving. And that's something we will enable just as simple in our purchase or as we talked about earlier, just towards the end of the year, as a subscription. So that's just a lot of untapped potential there. That's not in the deferred revenue line, obviously, but it's certainly a great deal deferred potential that we think is a large portion, which is likely to reach fruition.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And now let's go through the questions from retail investors. Question number one, Elon has mentioned a 50% compound annual growth target for Tesla in the past. Is this still in line with Tesla's ambitions for the next five to 10 years? This would be 4 million vehicles in 2025 and more than 20 million vehicles in 2030. Is 40% or more realistic target?
Elon Musk:
Well, it's always difficult to predict what the macro situation is going to be. I think people – actually people would have predicted the unexpected roundhouse that COVID came up with it sort of came out of nowhere. So I think in the absence of something, some massive force majeure events, but quite massive, I think, 40% is the likely number. It's possible that is 40%. I would be very shocked, if it's less than 40%, even with force majeure Model 3.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. The next question from retail investors. When will you announce the next Giga? How many Gigas, do you have planned for the next five years?
Elon Musk:
I think we will announce the next Giga possibly as soon as a month. We may not – as soon as next month. This is not a prediction, just saying. That's – that could happen. It will certainly be within three months and possibly one month. And that would be in the U.S. So as for how many will be in five years, I'm not – I don't know right now what that number would be. I guess, several more than there are today. But I'm not sure, what exactly it would be in five years, but some number more than today.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I'll also add that our Gigas have gotten bigger. And --
Elon Musk:
Yes. Larger, they start being called Tera.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, with multiple products as well. And so the absolute number of Giga factories, we may ultimately build might be less, but each one is larger. And that's under our belief that just significant efficiencies by having as much as possible, and similar product lines under the same roof, and as much vertical integration as possible all in one facility.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, can you give us an update on Solar Roof ramp? How many are you currently able to install per week? What is your installations per week target for the end of 2021?
Elon Musk:
We were actually gaining interest momentum with the Solar Roof before COVID, but COVID essentially shut us down, both from the ability to install and the ability to get permits. The permit offices were closed. And we're sheltering places, 11 places. So we obviously cannot install and the – if you can't get permits, then you can't physically do it. It's basically impossible. So – but I think the long-term trend for Solar Roof is extremely good, and I'm confident that, let's say, within the next, I don't know, year or—maybe even by end of year, we should be installing at a rate of 1,000 a week. That's not in the middle of winter or something, like taking seasonality – allowing for seasonality, where it's hard to install on roofs that are covered in snow and ice. But like, say spring, I think it's installing, which is the hard part. We actually have demonstrated the ability to hit 1,000 a week plus build rate for the Solar Glass Roof already. So that's not a problem. It's building out the installed teams, building up the third-party channel installers, the roofing industry installers. And internally, we want to have at least 1,000 Solar Roof install teams with – and taking a week or perhaps a little less than a week to do an install, which gets you 1,000 a week roof installations. We see demand is good. Production is good. So it's really all about the install, and then like also build out the training, the very diverse group of companies in the roofing industry to also install Solar Roof that, I think will scale – allow us to scale far beyond 1,000 a week. We're also seeing a lot of interest outside of North America. So we expect this to be a product that is international and actually seeing a tremendous amount of interest from China on the Solar Roof. So we're confident this will be a very significant product for the company over time.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, can you elaborate on Tesla's plan to enter the residential and/or commercial HVAC market? Can you provide some basics of how your system will work? Will you consider the heat pump water heater market as well?
Elon Musk:
Well, as I said on Twitter, I'm personally extremely excited to build HVAC – gas, HVAC system that also has sort of hospital-grade particle filtration, basically have a filtration that filters out viruses, bacteria, pollen, fungi and also neutralizes specific alkaline gases that is quiet and efficient. And these are all things we've achieved in our cars. In fact, I don't know if a lot of people realize, but the Model S are the only cars in the world that have a hospital operating room-grade heavy filters built-in. They're very big. So – but you can get to a particle count that is insanely low with our cars.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And 3 and Y have like MERV 16 or 15 capable filter –
Elon Musk:
Yeah. It’s not like model 3 and Y – Model 3 and Y also – they're way better than any other cars to the best of my knowledge. They're not quite as good as possible operating room, but they are extremely good, way better than any other normal car. And we're continuing to improve the filters on 3 and Y. These actually have a big effect on health even in normal just day-to-day living. It's reducing particle count and it has vector on allergies and all sorts of things. So it's really – air quality is incredibly important even in non-COVID situations going forward. So taking all those things that we've replenished and applying to how HVAC would be and commercial HVAC would be is just very exciting. And then you've got – if you're condensing water, like why not also have a few water source, if you have water, you possibly could then heat the water and have a water heater as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah. And use it as a heat source, if you need it instead of the outdoors, when the outdoor is really cold or the other way around. So lots of options.
Elon Musk:
It could be a hell of a product. So we just have to – Tesla have potentially to whether we continue on the product front. So we're going to make sure, we got a lot of ice in the fire here, for new products with the Cybertruck, Semi, new Roadster and the Gigafactories in various parts of the world and Model Y, Autopilot and the Solar Roof and…
Zachary Kirkhorn:
New technologies.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, exactly. Powerwall, Powerpack, Megapack. We are seeing tremendous demand for stationary storage, more than we can supply, at least for 2020.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the last question from the retailers, when will Tesla start acquiring utilities like Hornsdale Power Reserve and most lending instead of selling them battery storage? Does it make sense for Tesla to buy bigger plants and convert them?
Elon Musk:
Well, we haven't really thought about that yet. It's not out of the question, but our brand is full. Excuse me, sir, our brand is full. That's not out of the question. Our overarching goal is to help accelerate the advent of sustainable energy. And the three elements of that are sustainable power generation, then you've got to store the power, stationary storage. And then you've got to have electric transportation. So -- and we don't have, like, say, specific market share goals or anything like that. It's just to the degree that we can accelerate the advent of sustainable energy, we think that's a fundamental good for the world, and we want to do that as fast as possible. But it's not, like you said, market share growth is a goal in and of itself. It's just the faster this happens, the better the world will do.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And I think now we can move to analyst questions.
Operator:
Thank you. Our first question will come from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Adam Jonas:
Thanks everybody. I hope everyone's safe and healthy. I got one question, one follow-up. And I'd point out, I've had a root canal before, and I would agree, Elon. It was less painful than buying a car.
Elon Musk:
I mean, really, it's -- yeah, exactly.
Adam Jonas:
It's a big problem, actually. It's a big problem. Different conversations. Zach, first for you, any real-time update on company liquidity at the end of April? Some companies have given the circumstances, gone out of their way to give a little color on that. I just want to give you a shot at that, and I got a follow-up.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah. It's a fair question. I don't have any additional color to provide. So $8.1 billion in cash and cash equivalents at the end of Q1, we're managing it very closely. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we do have an increase in inventory of vehicles that we were unable to deliver at the end of Q1. So we're making progress delivering those through April, which is helpful for liquidity. And as we've been looking at liquidity, we've been looking at this over the next 18 months, and there's ups and downs to the liquidity. Currently now, as we're not producing, we still have payables from Q1 that we're paying off. But then in a couple of months, we'll quickly be through that, and then we'll have a gap in payables since we don't have any parts coming in. So it does go up and down a little bit. But in looking at the long-term horizon, which is how we're managing it right now, we feel pretty comfortable with the liquidity position of the company.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. I should say we are a bit worried about not being able to resume production in the Bay Area, and that should be identified as a serious risk. We only have two car factories right now, one in Shanghai and one in the Bay Area, and the Bay Area produces the vast majority of our cars, all of S and X, and most of the 3 and all of the Y. So the extension of the shelter in place or, frankly, I would call it, forcibly imprisoning people in their homes against all their constitutional rights, that in my opinion, and breaking people's freedoms in ways that are horrible and wrong is not why people came to America or built this country, what the fuck? Excuse me. But outrage -- it’s an outrage. So -- but it will cause great harm, not just to Tesla, but to many companies. And while Tesla will weather the storm, there are many small companies that will not. And all peoples -- everything people have worked for their whole life is going to get -- is being destroyed in real time. And we're going to have many suppliers -- or have many suppliers that are having super hard times, especially the small ones, and it's causing a lot of strife to a lot of people. Yes.
Adam Jonas:
Elon, on that point, you mentioned people that gave their lives to build the country. My fault for you on this. There have been a lot of comparisons drawn to the state of the U.S. economy in the early 1930s when Roosevelt began a series of new deals and infrastructure projects or post-World War 2 when Eisenhower launched the U.S. Highway Act and JFK launched the Apollo Program, which you could say was influenced by the Cold War, clearly, and you benefited from and our space program benefited from. What would be your message to U.S. lawmakers on this call as we – in addition to your opinion on shelter in place, but thinking the longer term, your message to U.S. lawmakers coming out of the crisis, specifically around EV infrastructure and a chance to work with taxpayers to support sustainable transport and renewable energy? I'm wondering if you see this as a chance to make the crisis and all the loss and lives lost not be in vain. Thanks.
Elon Musk:
I think, it's high time we invested in infrastructure in this country. We have a lot of a crumbling highways and bridges. And frankly, when I visit China, I see their infrastructure as being much better than ours. It's great. Europe has better infrastructure. It's really quite sad that U.S. infrastructure especially it’s roads and highways is where it is today. And our airports, in a lot of cases, are an embarrassment. So -- and it's not just a question of money. It's a question of will. Sometimes, we spend a lot of money on these things, but what are we gaining for it? So -- and yeah, we really need to be thinking about what is the transportation of the future, not the transportation of the past. If this was 1920, do you want to be investing in steam engines or in commercial engines? Obviously that’s not steam engines. So this is the time to think about the future and also to ask, is it right to infringe upon people's rights, as what is happening right now. I think the people are going to be very angry about this and are very angry, because somebody should really -- if somebody wants to stay in their house, that's great. They should be allowed to stay in the house, and they should not be compelled to leave. But to say that they cannot leave their house, and they will be arrested if they do, this is fascist. This is not democratic. This is not freedom. Give people back their goddamn freedom.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let's go to the next question please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Emmanuel Rosner with Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Hi, good evening. Question on Model Y. I was hoping you can elaborate a little bit more on the drivers of how the gross margin is already positive at such low volume. How much of it is a function of the commonality with the Model 3, what other factors should we think about? And what does that mean for the app flow for the eventual gross margin on Model Y?
Elon Musk:
Zach?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Sure. A couple of thoughts there for Y. The first is, it does carry a higher ASP. So on the revenue side, it carries a higher ASP than Model 3. And the deliveries that we started with were of the higher ASP versions of the cars. So we started with deliveries of performance initially. And so that helps create some of the margin. And that will come down with time as more variants are released, and we have more of a steady-state mix. But it's similar to the ASP trends that we had with Model 3 when we launched that product in Fremont two years ago. On the cost side, I think you hit on a couple of the buckets. The commonality is huge. It's very important. And in addition to that, manufacturing processes are very similar to Model 3 as well, and so we have experience with that both with Model 3 in Fremont and then as well in Shanghai. And it helps to have an existing factory with existing workforce and knowledge here as well. So the ecosystem to support and launch the product is there. There remain a lot of opportunities to take -- continue to take costs out of the car. And the number of vehicles that we built in the first quarter is quite limited relative to our goal.
Elon Musk:
It's good. We take costs out of the car and to make the product better. So it's tax. It's not make the product worse. It's -- and if we can take costs out of a car, make it worse, we want to take costs out of the car, figure out how we can make it lighter and simpler. And so it's -- want the car to just incrementally improve as well as incrementally lowering costs. But for a five-seater Model Y, we expect marginal costs of that car to be comparable to the Model 3 once we have reached say, 10,000 or 20,000 units or something like that and…[Technical Difficulty].
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, please standby, your conference will resume momentarily. Thank you. Speakers, you're back online.
Martin Viecha:
All right. Sorry, we got disconnected for some reason. What was the question again? Okay. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
The next question comes from Ben Kallo with Baird. Please go ahead.
Ben Kallo:
Hey, thank you very much. Just wondering about the cell strategy. In Reno, you have, obviously, integrated there. But you're buying cells I think, in Shanghai and then what we think in Germany. And so, how are you looking at that going forward? And then could you just talk about Mr. Mizuho and that Board addition and kind of the process with adding him to the Board? Thank you.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Sure. From a sales perspective, with all the partners we've had historically in the future, we're just looking for competitive technology and competitive pricing. I think we'll talk a little bit more about this on Battery Investor Day like how we're approaching all of it. But yes, I mean, we don't have like one model we're restricting ourselves to pursue. We're just trying to find what's best for the products and -- in the long run. And then the other question about the Board?
Martin Viecha:
Sorry, we couldn't hear the second part of the question.
Ben Kallo:
Yes. I was asking about Mr. Mizuho entering the Board and kind of the process behind that and what he brings to the Board?
Elon Musk:
I think we all need to go. And obviously, he brings tremendous amount of experience investing at the highest levels in the world and has done great work as -- at the Japan Pension Fund, which is the largest fund of any kind in the world. And generally, the conversations over the years is just churning incredible insight into how the securities -- the global security markets work and what he thinks it is, whether are historical. It just -- it seems like he has a strong philosophical understanding about how to make the future better. And he shares our view regarding the environment and just a very sensible, smart person who brings a lot to the Board and I think is generally recognized as such by many people.
Ben Kallo:
I guess leaking into the Panasonic relationship, maybe just how is that relationship going? And is there any read-through on bringing him on to the Board? Thank you.
Elon Musk:
No. I think this is set right through with the Panasonic relationship. I mean, I have a great relationship with Panasonic's CEO. We meet regularly one on one and talk at the time. So, that relationship is strong. Just that he'd bring more of a broader and a global, strategic view to the Board.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Our next question will come from Gene Munster with Loup Ventures. Please go ahead.
Gene Munster:
Congratulations on the progress. Elon, you talked about full autonomy by the end of the year. I would love for you to walk through the rollout strategy of the Tesla Network app and how that's going to look prior to the robo taxi stage? Are you going to gradually take over human routes with autonomous capable routes over time? Or how do you see that playing out?
Elon Musk:
Well, it's pretty much going to play out as it has played out, which is, we'll release more and more functionality. Yes, before we release any functionality, it goes through extensive testing. First, we run it -- we have a simulations team that has, I think, a very good simulation of the real world. So we run any car changes through battery tests and simulation. Then we have a global QA team, which I'm on, actually. I'm one of -- on the global QA team. And we test the releases in the real world, the essence of real-world in a simulation, which is -- which are very many, because the world is very complex and where -- and then we release it to a small group of private beta testers within the company; then to a larger audience, including people outside the company; then to Early Access Tesla owners; and then finally, a broad release. And so there are many stages that these things go through. So, by the time something is being -- going to wide release into the U.S., it has gone through all of those stages. And the software that's at the very early stage is much more advanced than what people are seeing. So, just going to go through a very rigorous safety process. So essentially, we need to figure out, get very good at complex intersections, get very good at complex turns in intersections and things like busy malls, in a parking lot or office park or special events and sporting events, that kind of thing, when those eventually come back. Those are extra hard cases. But it's all tracking very well. If you like, the water pallets engineering team is -- we just have an extremely talented group, and I'm deeply involved with the team. So we talk every week and meet every week when we can, as now physical meeting is difficult. So I have quite a deep understanding where we are, where we're headed. And I feel like we have a tremendous amount of momentum, and we'll have the functionality that’s really cool, also driving by the end of the year. Now after that functionality is released, there's still another step, which is to improve the reliability of it, once it is released, to kind of core self-driving with the human -- supervised by the driver. And then we keep improving the reliability to a point where it no longer needs to be supervised by the driver. And we provide a vast body of data to regulators to show them that this is the case. And then presumably, the regulators, depending on which jurisdiction it is, would give approval for the autonomous cars that can drive with no human onboard. Obviously, the regulatory approval process that's difficult for us to predict with accuracy, because it's out of our hands. But for the rest of it, I feel very good about where we are.
Gene Munster:
So, to summarize, we want -- we're going to give owners full autonomy, some level of that by the end of the year. Then a human is in the loop, Tesla Network app sometime, is it first half of next year? Would that be the hope?
Elon Musk:
Do you mean like, when can a car drive with no person?
Gene Munster:
With a person -- initially a person who observes, would that be with the Tesla Network app, would that be really part of the year of 2021? Is that the hope?
Elon Musk:
If described as a hope, I would say that, that's probably a fair description.
Gene Munster:
Okay. And then kind of take it to its end stage, the robo taxi stage. Any high-level thoughts to understand the regulatory is a massive unknown? But if you're going to put a guess on it, where would we -- when will we start seeing robo taxis?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think it's quite likely, in my view, organic. I could be wrong. As you see, because we are ahead in some areas, and we're behind in others, because -- when I give a guess, I give the guess that I think is the likely midpoint, not the point with lots of margin. If this is normal distribution, I'd give you the 50th percentile, not the three segment optimistic or pessimistic. So then that necessarily means, at least, half of my predictions will be wrong and half will be right. Yes. I think -- or it might be right, but offset by a few weeks to a few months, in some cases a few years. But I believe as everything I've ever said would come true – did come true, it may come through late, but it did come true. So punctuality is not my strong suit, but I always come through in the end. So – and I think we could see robo-taxi fleet in operation with the network fleet next year. Not in all markets, but in some.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And let’s go last question please.
Operator:
Our last question will come from Pierre Ferragu with New Street. Please go ahead.
Pierre Ferragu:
Hey, thanks for taking my question. One on gross margin, first. I know your impressive performance in Q1. So there are three moving parts, the tailwind from credits, of course; the Model Y is ramping. Even if it broke even, it probably took average gross margin down. And of course, you had like Fremont being closed, shut down the last week of the quarter. It probably was the sort of an extra cost. And so when I looked at how gross margin evolved sequentially, excluding these three moving parts, I felt like your auto gross margin could have been up like a couple of points sequentially. So I wanted to check with you, if that estimate would make sense. And then I will have a follow-up on energy storage. Thank you.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Sequential market improvement – margin improvement.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. So the three things that you mentioned, I had a little bit of a hard time hearing the full question here because we're having a bit of network difficulty in the room. I'll do my best here. So when we look at margin, we just look at credits as you have, so I agree with that. Model Y ramping, bringing down overall gross margin, I agree with that as well. So it was lower than the overall average, and that will increase with time. And shutdown and efficiencies in both Shanghai and in Fremont also weighed on margin. And the Shanghai margin was below the average as well. Even though it's increasing quickly and approaching Model 3, it still is below the average. And so I think the sentiment of your question was, if you were to remove those factors, was there a sequential increase in gross margin. I haven't specifically calculated that, but I think your intuition is right. We saw strength in gross margin across the board, as I mentioned. And in particular, S and X gross margins continue to improve despite slightly lower volumes there and higher fixed cost amortization. So there's good progress happening, both on the ASP side and the cost reduction side, for our products and production. And I think this also lends itself to the power of the gross profit contribution to the company once we get through these inefficiencies, we get them on up and running again, we increase capacity so we can spread out fixed costs and continue to execute on cost reductions on our products, we feel very optimistic about that path going forward.
Pierre Ferragu:
Thanks. And I had a quick follow-up on energy storage, if you can hear me well. I think like – I can't remember – I think from the very first days I heard you on the call, you've always mentioned that demand for energy storage is always outstripping supply, and you have more orders than you can make. And so I'm kind of thinking there will be – there should be an inflection point in that business at some point, and it's going to be driven by your ability to add much more manufacturing capacity like battery manufacturing capacity. And at a high level, how are you thinking about that inflection point in terms of time line?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
In terms of time line, I think what we've been doing with both our partners and internally is looking at how to reduce the – fundamentally the cost of investments in new sales capacity because when you look at a car – a vehicle product, there's a lot of things in the vehicle besides the cells. When you look at an energy storage product, it's really just the cells. And so to really grow the energy storage business, it's all about cell investments. And so that's what we've been focused on. And I think not to give too much away, but that will be one of the things we address in Battery Investor Day is how we're focused on that. And when we have that in the place we want, it will be a lot easier to scale that business.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much for all your great questions. Unfortunately, this is all the time we have today, and we'll speak to you again in three months' time. Thank you very much, and have a good day.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by and welcome to Tesla's Q4 2019 Financial Results and Q&A Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Sherry and good afternoon everyone and welcome to Tesla's fourth quarter 2019 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Mus, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q4 results were announced at about 1:00 PM Pacific Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During the call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump in the Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thanks, Martin. So Q4 was another strong quarter for the company. Deliveries reached over 112,000 vehicles in a single quarter. It's hard to think of a similar product with such strong demand that it can generate more than $20 billion in revenue with zero advertising spend. I think that's like where we do say that from time-time and I think it's often overlooked, but to have the highest demand electric vehicle in the world with no advertising spend is I think quite remarkable and speaks to the nature of the product and the fact that the product itself is compelling enough to generate that demand without much of advertising. At our Fremont factory we're producing at a rate roughly the same as the NUMMI factory did in its record year of 2006 and obviously we expect to exceed that significantly this year. This rate of production was cheap before we even started to produce the Model Y out of Fremont, so there's lot of potential to go beyond that number. For the Shanghai factory I'd like to say congratulations again to the team in Shanghai on launching Model 3 last quarter and achieving the first deliveries earlier this year. I'm really excited and optimistic about the potential for the Shanghai factory. I think it's going to be incredible asset to the company and we also broke ground on the Model Y factory in Shanghai, so lot of good progress there. Regarding Model Y, it was only 10 months ago that we revealed a Model Y prototype. And now in January this year, we started producing Model Y in limited volumes already. Now this is thanks to a great effort of our engineering team and we managed to achieve by far the highest energy efficiency of any electric SUV ever produced at 4.1 miles per kilowatt hour, which means Model Y four wheeler drive got EPA rating of 315 miles and this improvement is reflected on the configurator as of today. This is above what we previously stated by a pretty significant margin. And then just with great acceleration, top speed, it's really just an incredible specs all around. For the Cybertruck, a few months ago we revealed obviously we revealed the Cybertruck, and that was -- that went viral and we tried to build a product that -a product that is superior in every way without any preconceptions of how such product should look. So it really just from the standpoint of what's the most badass, futuristic, armored personnel carrier that kicks the ass of any pickup truck, basically that's the goal. And we wanted it to look like something that just came out of the sci-fi movie set from the future and the demand has been incredible. I have never seen actually such a level of demand at this this -- we've never seen anything like it basically. I think we will make as about as many as we can sell for many years. So -- as many -- we'll sell as many as we can make, it's going to be pretty nuts. So, and I think actually the product is better than people realize even, they don't even have enough information to realize just the awesomeness of it, it's just great. So and then stepping back in 2018 from a financial standpoint, we were free cash flow was breakeven, but in 2019 we managed to generate more than $1 billion free cash flow, while building a factory in Shanghai in record time and while building parts of Model Y in production. So, I think to -- for us to have this level of free cash flow while making massive investments in capacity, while developing new products, while improving the core engineering is a testament to the -- I think incredible performance of the Tesla team and I'm just so proud to work with such a great team. I'd like to thank the whole Tesla team for their ongoing work on cost control and is what has allowed us to get to this compelling financial numbers, while at the same time growing the company at an incredible pace. And in conclusion when I think of what we have in front of us, the next couple of years, we've got Model Y, we've got Giga Berlin, Tesla Semi, Solarglass Roof, Cybertruck some very exciting improvements in battery technology for the full self-driving, we got the next-gen Roadster and probably in a bunch of other products we'll [indiscernible] too. It's hard to think of another company that has more exciting product and technology roadmap. So super-fired up about where Tesla will be in the next 10 years. If you look back 10 years from today to 2010, we will produce approximately a 1,000 times more cars in 2020 then we produced in 2010, 8,000 and we have also Solarglass and solar retrofit, Powerwall and Powerpack other things too. So where we will be in 10 years, very excited to consider the prospect.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much Elon and Zachary some opening remarks as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Thanks, Martin. This past year was truly transformational for Tesla and I want to thank everyone who has been a part of making this happen. On 2019 a few key points I'd like to highlight. On demand, while we've mentioned a few times, it's worth highlighting once again, over the course of the year we've transitioned entirely from generating Model 3 orders from a reservation backlog to generating new and organic demand. We've also seen a stabilization of Model 3 ASPs even increasing slightly in Q4 and we've seen an increase in ASPs of S and X after the launch of the longer-range versions in Q2. With respect to capacity expansion, we've greatly learned from the development and launch of Model 3 in Fremont and Reno. As a result, we've been able to bring new production capacity on board faster and with less cost. This is evidenced by the launch of Model 3 in Shanghai, as well as Model Y in Fremont, programs that were both launched in under one year. Financially, we have demonstrated multiple quarters of strong cash generation, enabled to higher volumes, improvements to capital efficiency, progress on working capital management and continued improvement in our product and operational costs. And we were able to achieve positive GAAP net income in both Q3 and Q4 for many of the same reasons that enabled strong cash generation. We've also made progress on recurring and software-based revenue with the implementation of premium connectivity and the beginning of upgrades available for purchase via the Tesla mobile app. Finally on stock-based compensation, it increased sequentially by $82 million driven almost entirely by an expense related to the next tranche of the CEO grant. This is a result of our improved, expected financial performance of the company, which the CEO stock grant is tied to. As we look ahead to 2020, this again will be an important year for the company. Our task ahead is to execute on the next phase of growth, while managing cash flows to support that growth. On Model Y, we expect first deliveries in limited quantities later this quarter and will ramp over subsequent quarters. As mentioned previously, we are forecasting higher gross margins on Model Y compared to the Model 3. This year for the Shanghai built Model 3, we expect to achieve run rate production and delivery rates. In addition, we expect to have completed the majority of plant supply chain localization at the factory or in the region. This is one of the most important components to achieve lower production costs for the site. We are also seeing strong order rates for the locally-built Model 3 and remain focused on continuing the production ramp and managing costs. We also anticipate significant progress on factory construction of the Shanghai and Berlin built Model Y, which will result in continued increases in capital spending. On operating expenses I expect an increase over the course of the year to support our growing product pipeline and international footprint. However, OpEx growth should increase at a lower rate than top line revenue. Overall, we believe this will set us up for a strongest annual financial performance yet, with sufficient forecasted cash flows to support investments related to our growth and further strengthening of our balance sheet. For Q1, please keep in mind that the industry is always impacted by seasonality. Additionally, we are in the process of ramping two major products Model 3 in Shanghai and Model Y in Fremont, which I expect will temporarily weigh on our margins. We are also in the early stages of understanding if and to what extent we may be temporarily impacted by the Coronavirus. At this point, we're expecting a 1 to 1.5 week delay in the ramp of Shanghai built Model 3 due to a government required factory shutdown. This may slightly impact profitability for the quarter, but is limited as the profit contribution from Model 3 Shanghai remains in the early stages. We are also closely monitoring whether there will be interruptions in the supply chain for cars built in Fremont. So far we're not aware of anything material, but it's important to caveat that this is an evolving story. However, we have more than sufficient cash to continue our expansion plans, while further strengthening the balance sheet. Thank you again for your support and we will turn to questions.
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you. We are going to take the first question from retail investors compiled by SAY [ph] Technologies. So the first retail investor question is since solar is required for all new home constructions in California, do you have any substantial orders for Solarglass Roofs from any of the large California homebuilders that you can share. What's the 2020 target for the number of Solarglass Roof installations in California?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think we do -- we are seeing, [indiscernible] from a small base, exponential growth in demand and output for our Solarglass Roof. So it's a [real hard] [ph] to predict what that will be this year except that the demand is very strong and we are working also not just through Tesla [source] [ph], but also through new homebuilders and through just the roofing industry in general, whether is in North America on the order of 4 million new roofs per year. So, we see a lot of interest and so it's just a question of refining the installation process, getting lots of crews trained to do the installation. But over time I would expect a significant percentage of new roofs to be something - to use solar glass in one form or another. It's really going to be your choice, do you want a roof that is alive with power or dead without. And I think people will want a live roof that generates power and it looks good and lasts long time and it's the future we want. So it will be a significant product but because it is a new and quite revolutionary product and that there is a lot of challenges to overcome, but they will be overcome and this will be a major product line for Tesla. And the Buffalo factory is doing great.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Second question from retail shareholders is, will you release the Tesla [indiscernible] network app before full autonomy and change the terms of Tesla Insurance to allow owners to be drivers on the network. If so when will this happen? Might want to target California airport first, also good place to add Superchargers.
Elon Musk:
Sorry, it sounds like more question then one?
Martin Viecha:
Yes, it's a bit of a bundle, yes.
Elon Musk:
Well, I think it's – it probably will make sense to have like to enable car sharing in advance of the kind of sort of drive robo-taxi fleet because the car sharing can be done before full self-driving is approved by regulators. So, it's probably something that we would enable before sort of robo-taxi fleet is enabled. And, it sounded like there were some other questions bundled in there?
Martin Viecha:
Superchargers at airports.
Elon Musk:
Sure. Yes, probably we'll have superchargers in the airports. We have supercharges wherever we see that there is a need for supercharges.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And then on the insurance part of the question, it is our intent to allow people to put their cars into ride sharing or the FSD network using Tesla Insurance. It's not currently the case, but by the time that this is available, it's our intent to get that ready.
Martin Viecha:
Yes, thank you. The next question from retail investors is how many California owners are currently insured with Tesla Insurance? What's the target for Tesla Insurance in 2020? When will you start significant -- to significantly leverage the data you have from the fleet to lower the cost of your coverage? Will we get premium discount of certain percent?
Elon Musk:
Yes, I mean go ahead Zach.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, so Tesla Insurance is currently available in California. A couple of things that we're working on this front, the first is to expand it to other locations and we are preparing the regulatory processes, preparing our processes to go through the regulatory processes in those locations. We're also working on the processes to continue to adjust our rates in California, which also have to go through regulatory processes as insurance is quite heavily regulated. And that's where we're spending our time focusing on Tesla Insurance right now. There is a significant amount of innovation as we've discussed before in this space, exactly getting to the intent of what the question here is using our technology to reduce rates. And this will be rolled in over time.
Martin Viecha:
The last part of the question was, will there be a discount for using Autopilot with our cars?
Elon Musk:
Yes, there will be.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
The rate card for California Tesla Insurance already considers the safety features associated with Autopilot.
Elon Musk:
Right, but I think -- I think it would make sense for us to close the loop on higher use of Autopilot, reduces the insurance costs as well as the probability of injury. So I think insurance is going to be I think quite a major product of Tesla over time. The amount of money that people spend on car insurance is like a remarkably big percentage of the cost of a car, like you can lease a Model 3 right now for $400 a month, but a typical owner in California will be paying somewhere between a $100 and $200 a month in insurance. So we're talking about something which is maybe a quarter or two half of the cost of the lease of the car is insurance. And a lot of that insurance cost is just because the insurance companies don't have good information about the drivers and that there is no good way to provide feedback where it's a very poor feedback mechanism in terms of the insurance rates versus the actual way that the car is being driven, whereas we can do that in real time. It's a fundamental information advantage that insurance companies don't have.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The next question is, you set expectations that you would be feature complete on FSD by the end of 2019. Can you please provide an update on when will we see this with end users, where are you in retrofitting the FSD computer to older models?
Elon Musk:
Well, I mean, to be precise, I said I was hoping would be feature complete with both FSD by the end of last year. We got pretty close, it's looking like we might be feature complete in a few months. The feature complete just means like it has some chance of going from your home to work let's say with no debentures. So, that's -- it does mean the features are working well, but it means it has above zero chance. So I think that's looking like maybe it's going to be couple of months for now. And what isn't obvious regarding Autopilot and full self-driving is just how much work has been going into improving the foundational elements of autonomy. The -- like the core autopilots in Tesla or Autopilot software and AI team is just is I think very, very strong in making great progress. And we're really only getting to take full advantage of the Autopilot hardware and the FSD hardware. So, I think it's -- the apparent progress as seen by consumer as well seems to be extremely rapid, but actually what's really going on my head it seems like I said having the foundational software be very strong and with really strong foundation. And then really fundamental thing is moving to video training. So in terms of labeling, labeling with video in all eight cameras simultaneously. This is a really, I mean in terms of labeling efficiency arguably like a three order of magnitude improvement in labeling efficiency. For those who know about this it's extremely fundamental, so that's really great progress on that.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. And the last retail investor question comes from Kendall. Since most retail investors seem to understand Tesla better than analysts and we think a larger part of their own personal wealth on Tesla doesn't make sense to take mostly questions on these earnings calls from us vis SAY. Do you even have to take questions -- answer questions from analysts?
Elon Musk:
Well, I guess, we don't have to -- I do think that a lot of retail investors actually have deeper and more accurate insights than many of the big institutional investors and to me better insight than many of the analysts. It seems like if people really looked at some of the smart retail investor analysts and what some of the smaller retail investors predicted about the future of Tesla, they would -- you would probably get the highest accuracy and remarkable insight from some of those predictions.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. So now let's switch to institutional shareholder questions. The number one question is, you have spoken previously about Shanghai Giga being 65% lower CapEx per unit of capacity. Have you learned to do anything better or different from an OpEx perspective? And if yes, what kind of impact might we expect on the long-term gross margin?
Elon Musk:
Sure, go ahead, Zach.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. The Shanghai factory has been a quite remarkable cost experience across all line items of COGS for the Model 3 there. We have talked a lot about the CapEx being of capacity being lower, but I mean you can basically run down entire list of COGS between labor cost, material cost due to localization, opening up suppliers that would not have made economic sense from the states. Localizing the supply chain flows into inbound logistics and outbound logistics costs as well, so we're not shipping cars from California over to China. And then that has a corresponding savings on our lower import related costs. And there is a slide in the shareholder letter that shows the layout comparison between our Fremont facility here in California and also the Model 3 factory in China and the simplification in terms of the flow is pretty evident from that layout and that cascades itself into all sorts of savings for the operations of the facility. And so if you add all of this up our internal estimates are a pretty significant reduction in the cost of Model 3 in China relative to Fremont, but I think it's also important to keep in mind that the cost of the Standard Plus in that we're selling out of Shanghai is of lower than that of the similar car coming out of Fremont from price perspective. And so and I've said this on previous earnings calls, I think it's fair to expect margin coming out of the Shanghai facility to match the same margin for the vehicle in Fremont.
Elon Musk:
Yes, there is a pretty big fundamental efficiency gain that Tesla has by just making cars, especially affordable cars 3 and the Y, at least on the continent where the customers are. It kind of makes sense it's -- but what we're doing will happen, during the past was really pretty silly in making cars in California and then shipping them halfway around the world to Asia and Europe. And this created a lot of cost, because you got to ship those cars, so they got lot of finished goods, sitting on the order or waiting at the port or going through customs, tariffs, transport, it's -- and then the factory complexity in California is very high, because you've got different regulatory requirements in China, North America and Europe. So we got three different types of cars that are being built, it's very complex and just having a factory in China, a factory in California, a factory -- North America factory in Europe. Well, just that alone is a massive improvement in our formula operating efficiency. Now that I think this may not be fully appreciated.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And also on working capital.
Elon Musk:
Yes, absolutely.
Martin Viecha:
According you see OpEx here to, but it's not 2010. Okay. The next question from institutional investors is given the recent run in the share price, why not raise capital now and substantially accelerate the growth in production i.e. fill te Gigafactories, investment in Supercharger and customer service.
Elon Musk:
Well, we're actually spending money as quickly as we can spend it sensibly. So if there's any sensible way to spend money, we're spending it. There is no artificial hold back on expenditures anything that I see that is what looks like a -- it's got good value for money. The answer is yes immediately. So -- but we're spending money I think efficiently and we're not artificially limiting our progress. And then despite all that we are still generating positive cash. So in light of that, it doesn't make sense to raise money because we expect to generate cash despite this growth level. Zach, you can…
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, I completely agree with that. I think some of our learnings during the Model 3 launch period where we grew too quickly and with too much complexity. And it held back our ability to continue to scale and part of the journey that we've been on in 2019 is to underline a series of unintentional that process is that kind of accumulated in the company over time. And so that's kind of what contributes to the reduction in OpEx over the year as we get smarter about that. And now we've laid a good foundation and I think and I agree with you on that we're not holding back on the growth. I mean we have two products, two vehicle products launching right now and that will consume much of the bandwidth of the company to stabilize those over the course of the year. And then looking into next year, we have even more products launching, more factors. So we want to be smart about how we spend money and grow in a way that's sustainable. So we don't positive term to the mistakes I think we made a year and a half or so.
Elon Musk:
Yes, absolutely.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. The next question we've already answered regarding Autopilot timelines. So, the following question would be, can we please talk about cost control and OpEx sustainability in terms of growth versus gross profit growth. How did we achieve the recent OpEx trends and how should we think about OpEx needs as we grow both vehicles and geographic workloads?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I commented briefly on this in my opening remarks. We did see an increase in operating expenses from Q3 to Q4, even excluding the portion of that attributed to stock-based compensation. And when you double click into that growth, it's supporting the Model Y program and also Shanghai program as well. And so I think we as a company are now at the point where we've learned a lot on cost efficiency as I've just mentioned and we've unwound a number of the processes that were not in the right place including automating the things that need to be automated. And we'll continue on that journey. But I think we're at a point now where OpEx will start to tick up at least if you look annually from 2019 to 2020 to support our international footprint and then the growth of the company. It -- our job is to grow that significantly slower than the pace of growth of revenue to improve the operating leverage, which we're very, very focused on.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. And the last question from investors is the sales of Model S and X have stayed flat for several quarters, the main reason is that they still use 18650 batteries. When we will S & X use 2170 batteries manufacturing capacity of 18650 may be used for battery storage systems since that.
Elon Musk:
Sure. Well, actually the core chemistry inside the 18650 cell has improved many times over the years. So, it's really the form factor as opposed to a core technology. So it's, yes, I think we're pretty happy with where the -- the energy content, the sell-in, the improvements in efficiency of both vehicle. We're rapidly approaching a 400 mile range for the Model S, for example. So this is -- it won't be long before Model S is 400 mile range. Anything you want to add to that?
Unidentified Company Representative:
No other than to say that the 18650 line is running smoothly for really long time and in a world where self-supply is fueling growth like or part of the fuel growth, I don't see a reason to turn that self-supply off, so…
Elon Musk:
Yes, and actually the Model S and X actually have more range than we are currently stating on the website. We just haven't gotten around to updating the I guess the EPA sort of right number, but the actual range of the Model S and X are above what the websites as there are, yes the existing cars are better, so that being made.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Actually been that way for...
Elon Musk:
Yes, it must be somewhere in the 380s of what like that.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much and Sherry let's go to the Q&A on the phone.
Operator:
Thank you, again. [Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley.
Adam Jonas:
Hi, everybody and actually agree the retail questions were excellent actually. So Elon, do you see potential for Tesla vehicles to be fitted with user terminals that are compatible with the StarLink constellation in the near or medium-term future?
Elon Musk:
Well, it's certainly something that could happen in coming years. If there's no plans throughout this year, the folks at StarLink is ready for high bandwidth, low latency connectivity for homes and businesses and I guess aircraft and boats and that kind of thing, but the antenna for that high bandwidth, low latency thing is sort of about the size of medium Pizza which you could put on a car, but I think is more bandwidth than you would really need or you tend -- being buy just take it on the car. Yes, it will workplace for antenna.
Adam Jonas:
Well, maybe just a follow-up -- from follow-up, how we're assuming that we get the antenna form factor and cost down to a point where that could be integrated into the roof of a car for example, cost effectively and aerodynamically, et cetera? How would compatibility with the StarLink architecture theoretically improve the Tesla customer experience or the capability of the network?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think actually in most parts of the world we just use the cellular connectivity, just use 5G would be a recommendation to like in any cities or something like that. But if you're out in the countryside and there's is not good cell connectivity, then you could connect with StarLink antenna. And you wouldn't need -- you don't need to like have like gigabit level or level connectivity probably like 20, 30 megabits supply fine and then you have much more antenna. So yes, I guess it could be good for yes making sure there is connectivity in outside of major cities and that kind of thing. But I mean that's a -- sort of I'd say relatively obtuse, so I'm not thinking about it very much to be honest.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Dan Galves with Wolfe Research.
Dan Galves:
Good afternoon, thanks. So hoping you could give us some guidance on what CapEx is going to be this year and kind of as I look to model out the business long-term, is there a rule of thumb that we can use for capital expenditures per unit of production capacity or some sort of rule of thumb like that?
Elon Musk:
I don't know if we wanted to tell you, I don't think we want to say what our CapEx is going to be this year and certainly -- except to say that like -- as I said earlier, we're spending money as fast as we can spend money in sensible ways. So it's definitely not artificially limited. We will spend like a lot of money this year for sure. It's -- the challenge comes in like finding efficient ways to actually deploy the capital, that's the harder part then and sort of deciding on a CapEx number really.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. And I think we'll always find ways to become more CapEx efficient [indiscernible] capacity. We challenge the teams to always become more efficient and so we see reduction per -- in terms of CapEx.
Elon Musk:
Absolutely.
Dan Galves:
[Indiscernible].
Elon Musk:
Yes, it's good. Yes, I think there's so much -- it has a way that the core technology is improving radically that maybe you wouldn't necessarily notice as an end customer or some of them where you would notice, some that you wouldn't, but it's just there are these things that we have a big effect on the efficiency of the company like our internal applications team that kind of builds the Tesla internal operating system and if we just -- sort of core automation of the company, that makes a big difference to our productivity, but you wouldn't necessarily -- you would see it effectively in healthy financials, but you wouldn't necessarily notice that as an end customer.
Dan Galves:
Okay, got it. Maybe I could follow-up, I mean your kind of operating cash flow, EBITDA is annualizing at $4.5 billion right now. As I look out to the future, I'm kind of guessing that that could fund somewhere around 200,000 to 250,000 units of capacity a year which would be maybe a 30% CAGR over five years. I mean is that something that's feasible for you guys to execute on a consistent basis a level of capacity building that large?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I mean, I think…
Elon Musk:
We're having for more than 30%, yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, I think they're not -- I'm not sure the math that you've done, but I think our internal plans are faster. And just back on your first question, we will have additional detail on CapEx in the 10-K, but back to the growth rate, I mean, one thing to keep in mind is that the Shanghai facility, we do have a loan facility in place to support that growth. So that helps. And then as our production volumes increase that generates more cash on the business as well, that allows us to continue to fund additional factory. So I wouldn't necessarily view it as limited as you described it.
Elon Musk:
Yes, I think a few years ago, I said I -- yes, I think on our [indiscernible] a few years ago, I said in my estimate first is that Tesla would grow at an average compound average rate of in excess of 50%, I -- by saw hold to that belief.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Our next question comes from [indiscernible].
Unidentified Analyst:
Good afternoon and congratulations on the progress. First question related to Cybertruck, you mentioned you will sell as many as you can make. Can you remind me how many you think you can make and any thoughts on the cost of production for making those Cybertrucks?
Elon Musk:
Yes, I think we don't comment on those detailed numbers except the demand is just far more than we could reasonably make in the space of, I don't know, three or four years, something like that. So the thing we're going to be really focused on is increasing battery production capacity because that's very fundamental because if you don't improve battery production capacity, then you end up just shifting unit volume from one product to another and you haven't actually produced more electric vehicles. So that's part of the reason why we have not for example really accelerated production of the Tesla Semi because it does use a lot of cells and unless we've got a lot of battery cells available then -- and say like accelerating production of the Tesla Semi would then necessarily mean making pure Model 3 or Model Y cars. So we've got a really -- make sure we get a very steep ramp in battery production and continue to improve the cost per kilowatt of the batteries. This is very fundamental and extremely difficult. So that we said we're going to do kind of like a Battery Day just to kind of explain more about this what our plans are. I think probably it's going to make sense to do that after the end of this quarter, because I think it's going to be kind of an intense end of quarter as it was last quarter. So tentatively sort of in the April timeframe, we will do a Battery Day and kind of go through what the challenges are, how do you get from here to, I don't know a couple of thousand gigawatt hours a year or something.
Unidentified Analyst:
Great. I'll look forward to that Battery Day. Elon, you also mentioned in your prepared comments about other products that may come up and the only vehicle not announced for Master Plan Part II is a high passenger density vehicle, any light that you can give us regarding that project?
Elon Musk:
Yes, going back to what I just said that we got to improve the total battery capacity otherwise we add complexity, but we do not improve the number of vehicles on the road. So what we do some sort of high-capacity vehicle at some point probably, but we need to make sure we got the batteries to make cars that we already that are riding on our fleet. And it's just generally true when I see some I think sort of sensible comments by our arc invest, whether pointing out that really people do prefer to drive in their cars mostly by themselves and like the average, yes I mean the average number of occupants in a car, I think is like 1.2 and maybe with autonomy maybe it will go to 1.4 maybe, but I'm not sure if that -- it even goes there. So, well, it makes sense just for us to do sort of a minivan or sort of truck like that or something like probably, but like I said we're going to solve those battery -- we got to scale battery production to crazy levels that people cannot even balance today, that's the real problem.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from John Sagar [ph] with Evercore ISI.
Unidentified Analyst:
Thanks for taking my call. I want to talk about the differences between the Model 3 and the Model Y beyond the sort of 10% rule of thumb, just around cargo and size. Are there other features that are going to differentiate the two models. And then as a follow on to that, you've talked in the past about how Model S sales grew with the introduction of Model X. So are you planning on setting up your production facilities to align with that thesis that essentially Model 3 sales will expand alongside the introduction of Model Y?
Elon Musk:
You know, we're not quite sure what's going to happen with, but it is true that Model X, the introduction of Model X actually increased Model S sales because you would come in, look at the Model X and they like said okay, I'd prefer the Sedan and we're worried that X sales would of course S sales drop there -- actually could increase. So from us -- we're not too worried about demand, we are worried about production, make sure we get that production ramp going and reach volume production as soon as possible with the Model Y. And it's hard for -- it's always to hard predict what -- the exponential part of the S curve of production. Production pretty much always follows those S-curve or it's kind of like a herky-jerky S-curve. And you can use to predict what it's going to be like in the beginning because it's flow and it is pretty question like at the end, but that intermediate portion of the S curve is very difficult to predict. So that's and it involves a massive amount of hard work and just reacting fast to issues that arise. So, I think we're just going to have go as best we can with Model Y and make sure it's a great product. I think there are some things that will differentiate it, but not -- does on our October analyst call. And I think, so when they do, when people do a teardown of the Model Y, I think they will be impressed about some of the things they see.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And just to add to that, I think it's important to keep the Model Y launch in context over the next 18 to 24 months. But what we're working on here between Berlin and Shanghai and Fremont is to have 3 and Y locally produced in all location.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And so, Model 3 is expanding as Model Y is expanding, may be ups and downs various factories as we get to the journey of having these products on the major continents.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Also the rule of thumb of 10%, I think you need to see it when you see the car, you realize that it's not just a 10% different car. It's not just that -- there is more change happening like to the customers' perspective as well.
Unidentified Analyst:
All right, thank guys.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer.
Colin Rusch:
Thanks so much guys. Can you speak to the pricing strategy in light of the China price reduction, as well as the mission to increase EV adoption. Is there a target for gross profit or operating profit on a per-vehicle basis that we should be thinking about or how should we really frame that for ourselves?
Elon Musk:
Yes, I mean we're trying to make the cars as affordable as possible, as fast as possible, while maintaining reasonable -- while still being at least a little bit profitable and growing the company like crazy and having good free cash flow and accumulating our cash balance. Zach, anything you want to add?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
No, I think that's fair say. I mean our order rate supports the pricing that we have right now. We're working very hard to reduce cost and expand production because I mean we feel from the data it's pretty clear that there's a lot of interest in our products. And so -- we're working on is to increase production, increase availability of the products with time. And the price reduction in China, kind of, the first step towards this global localization, more accessible price and we'll continue to work on cost reductions in China as we do in Fremont and grow production.
Elon Musk:
Yes, I mean the thing that's really going to I think probably just have a profound effect on our financials is like is high volume and high margin obviously and that high-margin part comes from autonomy. So, do people buy the full self-driving package or not and do that buy it worldwide or only in certain places. For example, our autonomy is not as good in China as it is in the US, so fewer people -- a very small percentage people by the FSD package in China. But as we -- as we fix that then we will see a much higher people, percentage of people buying. And as we're close to full self-driving that is just going to become more and more compelling. So that's for our financial standpoint, that's the real mind-blowing situation is high volume, high-margin because of autonomy.
Colin Rusch:
Okay. And then just shorter-term, there's significant discussion in industry around moving to higher voltage on the Powertrain. And then some challenges around the supply chain preparedness to support that, separate from the battery packs since we'll talk about that in a couple of months. Can you speak to the areas of focus on Powertrain technology driven cost reduction over the next 12 to 24 months that we should be thinking about?
Elon Musk:
Well, Powertrain is pretty damn Good, I mean it's very than anything else other by a country mile. It's worth noting for example at the -- the Model S has like 100 kilowatt pack, but Tacon [ph] has 100 kilowatt like 95 kilowatt hour pack. The Model S is steadily approaching 400 miles range, the Tacon has 200 miles range. So we must be using that energy pretty efficiently and the Powertrain is a big part of that.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I would just say that focus is on cost on the Powertrain when we're thinking about technology innovations, it's how do we continue to drive the cost down.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And that's through voltages maybe one angle, but there are certainly others that just enable more power density and lower cost.
Elon Musk:
Looks like Powertrain is like mind blowing I think. Yes. Coming out later this year end of the year, probably, that's our goal, get Powertrain up end of the year and then it's going to be like -- this is like alien technology, it's insane. I think, I think we could do, yes, I mean I think there was no way, this could get engineering team, Tesla to a little about hardcore engineering.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Let's go to the next question please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Emmanuel Rosner with Deutsche Bank.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Hi, good evening, everybody. So in your slide deck, you had the comments around average selling price being stable or thereabouts in 2020. Can you maybe walk through some of the puts and takes, how you see sort of like that metric evolve, obviously you have the Model Y which probably would have initial higher pricing and then the China Model through at a lower price. So I guess what are the puts and takes for what you see as sort of like steadily in 2020?
Elon Musk:
Making the price better and better, so is the value. I know we're wondering we come out of prices and so I think or adjust according to what the demand looks like, I mean like right now it's pretty good, maybe they will change who knows, yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
But I think the way you described, it is fair. So I mean, relative to the current Model 3, China Model 2 pricing is slightly lower. And our Model Y pricing is public on the website. So you can see that it's clearly slightly higher than what Model 3 is out of Fremont. How the mix of those three products and that's out over the course of the year, we'll see. I think it's probably fair at the moment to assume the mix of those stays fairly stable in terms of ASP, when you average them together.
Elon Musk:
Yes, I mean the affordability of our car and trying to improve radically because for a very -- to tariffs mostly going to weigh, purchase tax exemption, local cost supply, not having to spend a bunch of money to transport it over the ocean. So the affordability is nine day for our car intent.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Dan Levy with Credit Suisse.
Dan Levy:
Hi, good evening. Thank you for taking the question. Just want to follow-up on the question on capital raise. So given the cheaper cost of capital and this is a real competitive advantage for others, why wouldn't it make sense to raise capital to either pay down debt or to pursue acquisitions especially bolt-ons that could help you accelerate capabilities and all-time in this battery technology?
Elon Musk:
I mean, if you know of any acquisitions, we'd love to hear about them. Yes, sure. Sounds great, whom should we acquire?
Dan Levy:
Well, given the importance of autonomous I imagine that this is an area that you would want to accelerate, if you view it as a crucial competitive advantage?
Elon Musk:
We're not aware of anyone that we'd want to acquire.
Dan Levy:
And debt pay down?
Elon Musk:
Leading the company to pay down debt, doesn't sound like wise.
Dan Levy:
I think the broader, there's been a couple of versions in this question over the course of the call. I think what we're saying more broadly is that as we look forward on the cash generation from the business relative to what our plans are, we are not constrained.
Elon Musk:
Yes, we're going to pay down the debt just as time goes by and we paid down $0.5 billion worth the debt last quarter. So we'll just keep steadily paying it down and yes, so, yes. But, yes, I don't think we have any more say on that part, all right?
Martin Viecha:
Okay, thank you. Let's go to the next question please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Pierre Ferragu with New Street Research.
Pierre Ferragu:
Thank you for taking my question. Elon, I wanted to come back on batteries. If I look at the end of this year, you should have -- units in position capacity soft cars, so that if you add -- the energy storage means mid probably north of 60 gigawatt of battery production capacity. So where do you stand now, and how do you get there? And then it looks like your competitors are those who would like to compete with you, seem to be struggling to grow battery capacity. So if you can just take us through what you're doing differently, why you're confident you can do that, I mean it seems like nobody else can.
Elon Musk:
Well, I guess a lot of people sort of wait front of us for not like grow bulk cars and bulk capacity and it's like now to turn that actually even the pros have trouble with it, it's pretty hard. So, but the fact is, we've already demonstrated massive growth and so production capacity at our Gigafactory, Nevada. And they have to go from the sales to the modules to the pack, so to sell capacity but also module and impact capacity. So we've just gotten pretty good at that and we've worked well with key partners like Panasonic, our relationship has been excellent. They've been a great partner with us for many years. We've added some additional partners that are small at scale with LG and CAGL. And I will have more to talk about this in detail in Battery Day, like I said probably April, we've got a very compelling strategy. I mean we are super deep on cell -- super deep cell-through battery, cell module battery. Drews, anything you want to add to that?
Unidentified Company Representative:
Thanks, I think you said it all.
Elon Musk:
We are super deep.
Unidentified Company Representative:
Yes, I mean it's a…
Elon Musk:
Rabbit [ph] all goes down pretty far.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Seven days only.
Elon Musk:
Yes, we did seven days a week now battery production. Man, we know a lot of factories.
Unidentified Company Representative:
The only thing I would add is we do have a decade plus of experience of not just like what a cell should be but how to integrate it into the product and that's really helped us.
Elon Musk:
Yes, absolutely and how to manage the cell and the module, the battery and through for weather conditions and different environmental and different charge regimes and while we really know about batteries -- so next level.
Pierre Ferragu:
Okay, thanks. And Zach, maybe a quick mundane follow-up for you, that's rate. Can you give us a sense of the impact of the ramp of Shanghai on your COGS in Q4?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, we were negative gross margin on the products that we built in Q4, but the team in China, I think did a great job managing cost during the launch. And so there was a slight drag associated with it, but not terribly significant.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. And let's go to the last question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our last question will come from Joseph Osha with JMP Securities.
Joseph Osha:
Further to the conversation around the cell technology, just wondering if you can comment on what the plans are for the Maxwell technology that you acquired here as a capacitor or dry cell or what have you? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Well, like I said, we're going to talk about this in Battery Day, which is probably April. And then a lot of these questions will be answered. I think it's going to be a very compelling story that we have to present. I think it's going to actually block those minds, of course my mind and I know it. So it's going to be pretty cool.
Joseph Osha:
Maxwell that ultracap technology is kind of part of -- part of the plan?
Elon Musk:
It's an important piece of the puzzle, yes. I think like some of the sort of retail investors have managed to put together several piece of the puzzle that it had the most insight.
Joseph Osha:
I shall have to read the blogs more. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
All right. You're welcome.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much for everyone for all of your good questions and we will speak to you in another three months. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Thank you.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Thank you.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to Tesla's Q3 2019 Financial Results and Q&A Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. We ask that you limit yourself to one question and one follow-up question. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Sherry, and good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Tesla's third quarter 2019 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q3 results were announced at about 2:00 PM Pacific Time in the update deck we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Please press star one now if you would like to join the question queue. But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you. First of all, I'd like to just thank the Tesla team for an incredible job this quarter. The execution was outstanding and -- on just about every front. So it's just an honor to work with such a great team. Q3 was obviously a very strong quarter and we had record deliveries, we're able to make great strides and controlling our costs. We shifted back to GAAP profitability while also generating strong free cash flow. And again, this would not be possible without each employee doing their part to reduce cost. Our operating cost is now at the lowest level since Model 3 production started. Regarding Gigafactory, Shanghai, this month we started with trial production at Giga Shanghai and built four vehicles from body, to paint, to general assembly. So this is a -- more emphasis this is a real factory with a tremendous amount of equipment in it. While a lot of people see the outside show the factory, which is enormous, and it was essentially under water in January. It was below the water table literally. What is, I think, much more significant is that we're able to install massive stamping machines, fully operational paint shop and a sophisticated general assembly line in the same period of time, in parallel with bogue building I'd like to thank our transient for this extraordinary achievement I'm not aware of any factory of this magnitude in history being constructed in such a short period of time, approximately 10 months. As far as I know, this is unprecedented. And Gigafactory Shanghai will become a template for future growth. We're planning to build model-wise in Shanghai as well of course, and build a Gigafactory in Europe and we hope to announce the location to that Gigafactory. In fact, we will announce the location to that Gigafactory before the end of this year. Regarding Model Y, we're also ahead of schedule on Model Y preparations in Fremont, and we've moved the launch timeline from full 2020 to summer 2020. There may be some room for improvement there, but we're confident about summer 2020. I've actually recently driven the Model Y release candidate and think it's going to be an amazing product and be very well received. I think it's quite likely to -- just my opinion, but I think it will outsell Model S, Model X and Model 3 combined. Regarding the Version 10 and Smart Summon, last month we released our latest Software Version 10, which includes video streaming games karaoke, Spotify and a host of other new features and improvements. Most importantly, it includes the first version Smart Summon, which has now been used 1 million times. So, it's now over 1 million uses of Smart Summon, and in the next week or so we will be releasing an improved version of Smart Summon taking into account all the data from those 1 million Smart Summon attempts. So, this really illustrates the value of having a massive fleet, because it allows us to collect these corner cases and learn from them, and use street learning and become rapidly better just as Navigator and Autopilot did on the freeway. So, expect a number of improvements in Smart Summon in the weeks to come. And this is really just the beginning as we collect more data and Autopilot and Full Self-Driving functionality get better. I do -- while it's going to be tight, it still does appear that we will be at least in limited -- in early access release of a feature-complete Full Self-Driving feature this year. So, it's not for sure, but it appears to be on track for at least an early access release of a fully functional Full Self-Driving by the end of this year. And yeah, lastly, we're highly focused on decisions that really make a material difference to the company, such as opening Gigafactories in other continents. Yes, it's worth noting that these geared ultimately having three Gigafactories effectively will triple out our output. And then when you consider increased output per Gigafactory, it's going to actually more than triple our output over time. And then, there are a lot of interesting things happening with respect to advanced batteries and more efficient powertrains, and full self-driving and all that sort of stuff, but that will be something for a future time. And then, one last item is that tomorrow afternoon, we will be releasing Version 3 of the Tesla Solar Roof. That's the integrated solar panels integrated with the roof. So that's -- I think this is a great product. Version 1 and 2 where we're still sort of figuring things out. Version 3, I think, is finally ready for the big time. And so we're scaling up production of the Version 3 solar tower roof at our buffalo Gigafactory. And I think this product is going to be incredible. But we'll talk more about that on the official product launch, which will be tomorrow afternoon.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And I think Zachary has some remarks as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, thank you, Elon. Thank you, Martin. Q3 was a great quarter for Tesla. I know many employees are listening right now, and I want to thank you for your passion and your hard work. We've made terrific progress, and yet again, we realized margin improvements in nearly every aspect of the business. There are three key points I would like to highlight. First, we returned to profitability in Q3, aided by improved gross profit, reduced operating expenses and the absence of negative one-time items that weighed on our financials in the first half of the year. GAAP automotive gross margin improved sequentially to 22.8% and over 20% excluding regulatory credits. We achieved these improvements through higher production volumes on Model S, Model X and Model 3, enabling better fixed cost absorption. We realized improvements in labor hours per vehicle as well as other costs such as warehousing, logistics, delivery and import related items. We are also making continued progress reducing material costs, including commercial negotiations with suppliers. Model S and X ASPs increased even accounting for revenue deferrals related to free unlimited supercharging. And Model 3 ASPs declined slightly, driven by mix in Asia, pricing action in EMEA. North American ASPs held flat as mix improved, offsetting pricing action we took at the start of the quarter, which is great to see. Note that with the release of Smart Summon in the US, we were able to recognize $30 million of deferred revenue. As we expand Smart Summon to additional markets and release new features, we will continue to recognize additional deferred revenue. Our services and other loss reduced yet again, reflecting our focus to improve efficiency of this area of the business, and we further reduced operating expenses despite increased orders, deliveries and new programs in development. And finally, on net income and other income, we saw benefits from foreign exchange, which as I mentioned last quarter, we don't hedge. The second key point I want to highlight is that we demonstrated another quarter of strong free cash flows despite a significant increase in our captive leasing mix and a sequential increase in CapEx spend. This has enabled year to date positive free cash flows for the company. Our cash balance increased by approximately the same amount as our free cash flows, and we exited the quarter with our highest quarter-ending cash balance ever of just over $5.3 billion. Specifically, on captive leases, we've received a number of questions on how these are funded. We use our leasing warehouse and ABS sales to allow for captive leases without material use of cash. What's important to note here is that our warehouse and ABS flow through financing cash flow, and as a result, leases negatively impact free cash flow. This impact was material in Q3 as the lease rate increased substantially by 50%. In addition, CapEx spend increased, driven primarily by Gigafactory Shanghai and Model Y spending. We've received a number of questions on why our capital spending appears low compared to prior levels, even though there are multiple new projects launching and in development. As we noted in the shareholder letter this quarter and last quarter, this is because we've made great progress on improving our capital efficiency. My third and final point is around demand and growth. Our global order rate remains strong and continues to increase. Despite increases to production levels, our order backlog has been growing, and quarter to date orders are significantly higher than at this point in last quarter. In the immediate term, we're focused on increasing production of Model 3 and Model S and Model X as quickly as we can. The bulk of this work involves continued optimization of existing equipment. We've also made targeted adjustments to pricing to better balance supply and demand. Our pace of execution on these factories and capacity expansion has increased significantly. As Elon mentioned, the first phase of Gigafactory Shanghai is already production-ready, and we've been able to pull in the timeline for other major projects. Overall, we are quickly turning the corner for our next phase of growth and our financial health continues to strengthen. We remain focused on reducing cost which enables rapid investments in future programs and growth.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. And I think also our Director of Energy Operations Kunal Girotra wanted to have some remarks.
Kunal Girotra:
Hi, everyone. My name is Kanal Girotra, and I've been with Tesla for about four years working on different aspects of deploying our energy products. I now run Tesla Energy's deployment and fulfillment teams. Over the last three months, the energy teams have made great progress in both our Solar and Energy Storage businesses. As you can see in our quarterly deck, our solar deployments rose by almost 50% over last quarter, and our energy storage deployments, which include Powerwalls and Powerpacks, grew by 15% to an all-time high of 477 megawatt hours. In the last three months, we relaunched Tesla Solar in North America by simplifying our solar offering into three sizes of small, medium and large with transfer and pricing on the website.
Elon Musk:
Actually, if I may interject. What a lot of people don't realize is, in California and in a number of other states, if you buy our sort of solar subscription or solar rental, there's no money down, and you instantly save on your utility bill, and there's no long-term contract.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Right.
Elon Musk:
So, it's kind of a no-brainer. It's really, do you want something that prints money? And if it doesn't print money, we'll fix it or take it back. It's kind of a no-brainer. And it sort of plays into Tesla's overarching strategy here which is effectively to become a giant distributor global utility...
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah.
Elon Musk:
On the energy side.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, absolutely. The subscription solar offering that you mentioned has launched in six states, and like you said, it's six monthly payments and no long-term contracts, and the response from customers has been pretty awesome so far.
Elon Musk:
Most people do actually buy it, as opposed to rent it, which actually is technically the better -- while you make money immediately if you rental, it's actually a better investment if you buy it, because the cost of capital of the consumer is better than our cost of capital. And then, there's an interesting study by Zillow and a number of other organizations that show that adding solar to your home increases the price -- increases the value of your home, and the Zillow study showed a 4% increase in the value of the home with solar. And then, if you add sort of the Powerwall, which gives you blackout protection so you'll have energy security in the event of rolling blackouts or if the power goes out for any reason, which appears to be a long-term systemic issue in California particularly, that I think is definitely going to be viewed as a significant asset for any home.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Totally, yeah. Yeah, I think to your point of buying Tesla Solar is easy because we have one of the lowest prices in the nation now, in the country, and just a little bit of story there. We were able to lower our prices because our cost of acquisition is now less than a quarter of any typical solar company.
Elon Musk:
We don't do sales.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, we do online sales, online orders...
Elon Musk:
There's no advertising, no marketing and no sales force. But would you rather pay for power or for marketing? I'd say, you would rather pay for the product.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Totally, yeah. Yeah. That's great. On solar, we've also simplified the fulfillment process with a goal of really fast order to install timelines. We've done many residential installs with a single related to a customers' home because of the reduced complexity. We've also been working with cities and counties to submit generic permits that follow a template rather than customizing for every situation, because...
Elon Musk:
Actually, this is a really big deal. I want people to appreciate the great work by you and the energy team to get this done, because one of the inhibitors, both from a cost and timing standpoint, is getting permit approval from these various regional authorities, and we've pioneered a novel approach. It's sort of an innovation applied to bureaucracy frankly, which enterprising and planning vision which are anything. And we've gotten a massive number of housing approval authorities to take a generic template, as opposed to a custom template, which makes it -- and in most cases I think electronic, as well. So that just makes it simple and low cost and fast to get approval for solar, which is how it should be.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Totally. Yeah, around 350 cities and counties have accepted it.
Elon Musk:
And more coming
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Many more coming.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I think ultimately it will be almost everyone.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, yeah, we have a lot more small cities and counties that have to come online, but that will be our focus in the coming days. And it's more important as we scale Solar Roof too. For all our deploying energy products, we need the innovation in the bureaucracy space that you said as well.
Elon Musk:
I mean, yeah.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, so all these improvements have led us to speed up our customer order to installation timelines from months to, in many cases, days. As Elon, you already said, we've added the option to add Powerwalls to secure people from future power outages and home installed Powerwall -- as was shown in the recent California outages, many homes ran successfully.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, you can tell which homes have a Powerwall because that's where the lights are on. Look at the neighborhood, it all but a few lights are out, and there's usually the ones with the Tesla Powerwall.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah.
Elon Musk:
I think also like the single truck roll -- yeah, single visit install is a big deal. We're taking it from where the solar industry would often be three visits before the solar was installed and would often take a lot of time to do the installation. But we've streamlined all of that to the point where in many cases it's a single visit to do everything, and it's fast, minimized disruption to the homeowner. And ordering solar is literally one click. You can order solar for you house in less than one minute.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, and then we have done the same thing in the commercial solar space. Nobody thought of putting a simple left side with prices for commercial solar. We do that now, and we've seen a good response from small businesses wanting to go solar. And by removing the complexity of long-term contracts and simplifying the terms and conditions, a commercial solar sales process would typically take six months is now taking a couple of weeks. So the same thing that we have done in residential, we want to expand more and more in commercial as well. So all in all, the roadmap for energy products from solar, Solar Roof, Powerwall to Megapack is superexciting, and I expect Tesla Energy to become a larger part of our overall ecosystem as we leverage and integrate the same competencies from our Vehicle business. The future is pretty exciting for Tesla Energy.
Elon Musk:
Great, thanks.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. So first we're going to take some questions from say.com. We will then take questions from both institutional investors as well as retail investors.
Operator:
Q - Martin Viecha:
So, the first question from institutional investors is, what are the opportunities for Tesla to create demand? Is word of mouth still sufficient or should we expect to see Tesla commerce advertising in the near future.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, what we're seeing is that word of mouth is more than enough to drive our demand in excess of production. We have no plans to advertise at this time. At some point in the future, we may do advertising not in the traditional sense but more to just inform people and make sure they are aware of the product, but not engage in the typical trickery that is commonplace in advertising.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. The next question from institutional investor is, Elon, other than robo-taxis and autonomous vehicle capabilities, when you look over the next three years, what are you most excited about at Tesla that you believe investors don't understand or have missed?
Elon Musk:
I think there is generally a lack of understanding or appreciation for the growth of Tesla Energy, as Kunal was talking about. In the long term, I expect Tesla Energy to be of the same or roughly the same size as Tesla's automotive sector or business. This is the most underappreciated group. I think it could be bigger, but it's certainly of a similar magnitude to Tesla Solar. Meaning, if you take Tesla Solar plus battery stuff, Tesla Energy is, I think, the least appreciated element. And part of it is like, for about 18 months, almost two years, we had to divert a tremendous amount of resources. We had to basically take resources from everywhere else in the company and apply them to the Model 3 production -- fixing the Model 3 production ramp and simplifying the design of the Model 3. So, for about a year-and-a-half, we unfortunately stripped Tesla Energy of engineering and other resources and even took the cell production lines that were meant for Powerwall and Powerpack and redirected them to the car because we didn't have enough cells. Now that we feel that Model 3 production is in a good place and headed to a great place, we've restored resources to Tesla Solar and storage. And so that's going to be, I think, the really crazy growth for as far into the future as I can imagine. And but we had to do it because if we didn't solve Model 3, Tesla wouldn't survive. So unfortunately, that shorted pretty much the other parts of the company. But it would be difficult for me to overstate the degree to which, I think, Tesla Energy is going to be a major part of Tesla's activity in the future. And Tesla's mission from the beginning has been to accelerate the advent of sustainable energy, that means sustainable energy generation and sustainable energy consumption in the form of vehicles, electric vehicles. And I think one of the stats we will publish in the future along with our vehicle production is that how much sustainable energy Tesla produced, or Tesla customers produced with our products. And I think you'll see that we're producing about the same or comparable amounts of sustainable energy as are consumed in the car -- in our cars. Because for the longest time, the rebuttal against electric cars is like, don't they use dirty power from coal? Well, no, we're solar power. Obviously the solar power came from companies, not just Tesla. Yeah, sustainable generation and sustainable consumption, and that's what we're doing. And we'll do more of it.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you. The next question from investor is related to full self-driving attach rates. Given that self-driving regulations will evolve unevenly in different markets, would you consider selling modules individually? For example, navigate an Autopilot or Summon versus current strategy of selling the package as a whole in order to encourage adoption and getting more data?
Elon Musk:
I think we'll continue to sell it in a bundled fashion. I mean, any Tesla that you buy already has basic Autopilot included. So, I think that's -- that really is a pretty major advantage relative to other cars. But then, the next step will be full self-driving with Smart Summon being kind of the beginning of that. And obviously, we kind of have the two sides of it -- highway Autopilot and we've got Summon which is sort of low speed in parking lots and that kind of thing. Now we need to work on solving the intermediate portion which is traffic lights and stop signs, and navigating through windy roads and -- windy narrow roads in suburban neighborhoods. That's the focus right now. You're going to want it all. That's the answer. Something everyone is going to want for sure.
Martin Viecha:
Okay.
Elon Musk:
And as I said before, at the point which we're able to upload the software enabling a Tesla to become a robo-taxi, expect to have that from a functionality standpoint by the end of next year. In terms of the functionality -- basic functionality aspirationally end of this year but reliable enough that you do not need to pay attention in our opinion by the end of next year. And it would need -- the acceptance by regulatory authorities will vary by jurisdiction. But that transition, that sort of flipping the switch from a car that is from not robo-taxi to robo-taxi, I think, will probably be the biggest step change increase in asset value in history by far.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you. The next question is, with respect to Model Y, what is your latest expectations for launch timing? Do you anticipate any Model 3 production downtime at Fremont during the launch? And how should Model Y gross margin percent look compared to Model 3 gross margin?
Elon Musk:
Well, we've talked about the launch time. What really matters is the timing to volume production where volume production is some number in excess of 1,000 units per week. And we're confident of reaching that point no later than the middle of 2020. Yeah, so from an interest standpoint, we do not expect it to interfere. Yeah, the body line is separate, the paint line is -- basically we do not expect it to interfere with Model 3. No, we do not expect any downtime. From a margin standpoint, Zachary, do you want to add anything?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, from a margin perspective, we're expecting ASPs for Model Y to be slightly higher than they are for Model 3, and this is common in the industry between sedans and CUVs. The part that we've worked very hard on is controlling the cost of Model Y, and our steady state forecast for that program puts the cost at roughly equivalent to Model 3. There will be ramp in efficiencies at first, of course, as we launch the program, but as it stabilizes with steady state production, we do expect that it will be a higher margin product. It's something that we're very excited about within the company.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you. And the last question from institutional investors is, can you provide an update on FSD package attach rates? As FSD attach rates improve, will you let the financial benefits manifest in higher gross margins for company and shareholders or will you lower the price to drive delivery volume?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
I don't think we're going to need to lower the price of FSD. I expect the price of FSD to increase slowly as the functionality and capability improve. That's -- that is unchanged. Anything to add on to that? I mean, our cash gross margin obviously is higher than our GAAP gross margin because of unrecognized revenue associated with FSD attach rates. So that's why I think it's in the order of $600 million or in the order of $0.5 billion of unrecognized revenue. So if you were to include that, which is obviously recognized as we release the full self-driving functionalities, the actual gross margin we're operating in on a cash basis today is higher than the GAAP gross margin.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let's now go to questions from retail investors. The first question from Craig is, can you provide more detail on the DeepScale acquisition, its importance, and whether Tesla is still on track to recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs with automatic driving on city streets by the end of 2019?
Elon Musk:
Sure. DeepScale is a very tiny company. It's basically about 12 people, and they have some expertise in increasing the efficiency of neural nets for a given amount of compute, which I think is helpful. So it remains to be seen, but the intent behind what was a very tiny acquisition was to, I think, slightly accelerate FSD. That is the intent, and hopefully that will turn out to be true. Yeah.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. The second question, we've already answered regarding Model Y delivery. So we'll jump to the third question from Craig. News reports suggest that Gigafactory may already be producing Model 3s for Chinese market. Could you please update us on the production expectations for Giga 3? And confirm purpose of the second building now being built. Is that for battery production as suggested by some press outlets?
Elon Musk:
Yeah, we're in trial production of Model 3, basically sending cars through the system, and we're ramping rapidly. We're expecting to hit volume production in a few months essentially. The second building is indeed for battery and module production. And there's probably -- there's obviously a bunch more construction beyond what is already there because obviously we need to build out more facilities for Model Y production at Shanghai as well.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. The next question from retail investors is, can you update us on the initial results of Tesla car insurance? Is there a timeline to expand it nationally and internationally?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, I can take that. So far, we've launched Tesla Insurance in California. I have to say that I'm quite pleased by the results so far. The take rates as measured by quote-to-purchase conversion are quite high by industry standards, and we expect that this will only increase as folks understand the products better and receive some of the known price increases coming from some of the standard carriers that they'll come to us and look for an alternative. There's a bunch of work happening behind the scenes on improving the product, particularly the purchase flow, to make sure it's the best product experience for our customers. And we're also working very hard to get other states lined up in the States, and then also to launch in some countries internationally. So we're not able to provide specific timelines on those changes, but we're definitely working as quickly as we can, given how well received Tesla Insurance has been in California.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I think it also has a secondary effect of insuring that the third-party providers of insurance provide reasonable rates to our customers.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Completely agree. The goal here is not to have an outsized market share of insurance, it's just to make sure that their customers have an alternative to other companies, as well, if those rates are high. I mean, ultimately what makes the most sense for a total cost of ownership perspective is for folks to have good pricing on their insurance.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Exactly.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. And the last question from retail investors. There is skepticism regarding your comment that the full self-driving will be feature-complete by year-end, like resulting from confusion about feature-complete, what feature-complete means. Could you please talk to this and perhaps give us a list of features that establish the FSD baseline?
Elon Musk:
Yeah, feature-complete, I mean, it's -- the car is able to drive from one's house to work, most likely without interventions. So it will still be supervised, but it will be able to drive -- it will fill in the gap from low-speed autonomy -- low speed autonomy with Summon. You've got high-speed autonomy on the highway, and intermediate speed autonomy, which really just means traffic lights and stop signs. So feature-complete means it's most likely able to do that without intervention, without human intervention, but it would still be supervised. And I've gone through this timeline before several times, but it is often misconstrued that there's three major levels to autonomy. There's the car being able to be autonomous, but requiring supervision and intervention at times. That's feature complete. Then there's -- and it doesn't mean like every scenario, everywhere on earth, including ever corner case, it just means most of the time. And then, there's another level which is that we think it's -- that from a Tesla standpoint, we think the car is safe enough to be driven without supervision. Then the third level would be that regulators are also convinced that the car can be driven autonomously without supervision. Those are three different levels.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. Sherry, we can now go to the questions from analysts.
Operator:
Thank you. [Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Dan Galves with Wolfe Research.
Dan Galves:
Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my question. I was hoping that you could give us a little bit more color on sizing up the key factors in the auto gross margin improvement from Q3 to Q2, particularly you mentioned some nonrecurring items in the letter. And also, should investors be prepared for any meaningful headwinds as the China plant comes up, but isn't at full production yet?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, I can provide a couple of comments on that. On your final -- on your last question about China headwinds, there are always ramp inefficiencies when we launch a new factory. So we don't expect China to be any different than that. So there will be some that we experience in Q4. The amount of that is hard to forecast, given that it's a different type of factory design than we did here in Fremont. We're working very hard to limit the ramp inefficiencies, but certainly fixed cost absorption and having all of the labor ready as we ramp will have an impact on Q4. On the margin improvement, a couple of things there for Auto gross margin. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, S and X average selling prices increased from Q2 to Q3. I mean, that's important, as I mentioned in the last earnings call. The prior powertrain versions of S and X provided significant headwinds on average selling price for that product in the quarter. We've also done a bunch of work as a company to become more targeted in how we adjust pricing on our products and how we optimize that based on local supply and demand. And so, I think there is a bunch of good work from the team on that in Q3, which we allude to in our financials. And cost reduction has just remained a huge focus for us. It's hard to underestimate how much of that has been engrained in the culture of the company. And Jerome and his team have done absolutely tremendous work there. So, on every line item of our cost, whether it be manufacturing, labor, warehousing, logistics, there's just a tremendous amount of good work that happened there. Specifically, on nonrecurring items, two that I'll note, one being the Smart Summon revenue recognition, debatable whether that's considered recurring or not given that we continue to expect to release more features and release revenue associated with that in the future, but we did want to call that out specifically and the dollar value around that because we know there's been speculation around the impact for the quarter. And foreign exchange is just something that since we don't hedge, it has an impact, and it comes and goes every quarter. So we'll have to see as the quarter plays out the effect that that has.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley.
George Dailey:
Hi, everyone. This is George Dailey on for Adam. So, first question, is it a fair assumption to say that once the Shanghai Gigafactory is ramped, the Model 3 sold in China for China could be the most profitable car you sell, even more profitable than the average car made at Fremont right now?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
That one is also difficult to forecast, it's a good question. At least based on the plans that we have now, we're expecting it to be roughly in line with where Model 3 is coming out of our Fremont factory. There's still a bunch of work around cost optimization in the factory after we launch with ramp inefficiencies, and we need to work those costs down. And then there will be work to land on what the right mix is within the country and where we ultimately land on the product offering. So I think just for now, it's safe to assume that it's roughly in line with the margins that you see coming out of the Fremont facility.
George Dailey:
Great. And then, if I could just sneak in one more, so it's been over seven years since you launched the Model S. And many OEMs seem that they don't have the same commitment to battery electric vehicles that you do, and many don't even offer one right now. As your business model proves to be more sustainable, could we potentially see Tesla maybe supplying other OEMs with batteries or software or complete electric vehicle architectures maybe in an effort to accelerate mass adoption of sustainable transport?
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I think there's -- it would be consistent with the mission of Tesla to help other car companies with electric vehicles on the battery and powertrain front, possibly on other fronts. So it's something we're open to. As a lot of people know, we open sourced our patents so that those would not serve as an obstacle to the adoption of electric vehicles or solar power or stationary storage. And we're definitely open to supplying batteries and powertrains and perhaps other things to other car companies.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Maynard Um with Macquarie.
Maynard Um:
Hi. Thank you. I have two questions. The first is, Software Version 10.0 added a lot of functionality that's never really been available in a car before through an over-the-air update. In your shareholder letter, you say that this lays an important foundation for things to come. Can you just talk about the longer-term plan or your vision for the direction of the software platform, and if you have plans to monetize that opportunity?
Elon Musk:
Well, the goal for the infotainment system is to say what's the most amount of fun you can have in a car, which I think -- I don't think other car companies really think about it that way. But certainly, what is the most fun -- how can we maximize the enjoyment of a car such that it's not some just some sort of transport utility device with no soul and no character. We want it to be fun and entertaining, a reverence, something that you love. And so, there's a lot one can do because people are generally spending a couple hours a day on average in their car, and so that's pretty high percentage of their waking time, outside of like showering and going to the bathroom and that kind of thing. It's a lot of time. And I guess, maybe there's some way to monetize it, but we haven't really thought about it that way. Our goal is to just make -- say what is the most fun you can possibly have while you're in your car. And obviously as autonomy gets better and better, that is going to become much more of an entertainment opportunity. So we'll see where that leads, but that's what we're after. That's our goal.
Maynard Um:
Great. And then, can you help us help frame the opportunity for emission credits? As the standards in the EU starts to tighten next year, and I'm not looking for an exact number, but maybe more to understand whether this is an opportunity in the tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions, anything to help us frame the opportunity, and also whether you have any ongoing dialogues with OEM? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
We certainly have ongoing dialogues with OEMs, but as you see from our financials, the tax credits or emissions credits are not forming a very big percentage of our revenue. They're -- I mean, Zack, what was the last quarter? It was really quite...
Zachary Kirkhorn:
It was over $100 million.
Elon Musk:
But out of like several billion. So it's like 1.5%. It's not -- it's not exactly a giant percentage. And obviously there's credits in the US are really not -- the credit situation not particularly strong for obvious reasons, which we think is not great for the future, but anyway that's the way it is. In Europe, there's much more of a sensitivity to the environment, but we're not counting on some big windfall, maybe it will be good, maybe not, we don't know. But we're not counting on it.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, I think that's a fair way to characterize it. I mean, our expectations are that credit revenues will generally increase with time, not necessarily increasing every quarter. We did increase from Q2 to Q3, but there's a certain amount of them that are baseline based on the number of cars that we build and deliver, and there's others that are deal specific, and those deals can happen at any point. So we're constantly in conversations with auto makers about this, but within the company, we manage the business without counting on any profit or cash flows from regulatory credits, and we view it as purely incremental. And my recommendation is that everyone should feel it that way. It's just an extra that comes through.
Elon Musk:
It's obviously a good thing to do that would help accelerate the advent of sustainable energy for sure. But it's -- and I think outside the US, there seems to be a strong push in that direction, which is great. And probably within the US, that over time will become a strong push.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Emmanuel Rosner with Deutsche Bank.
Unidentified Corporate Participant:
Hi. It's Edison [ph] on for Emmanuel. Thanks for taking our questions. First, there's been a lot of activity in the industry about electric pickups lately. Just curious if you have any updates, anymore insights you can share on the one that you're about to put out later? And then, secondly, there was a comment I think earlier about the order book quarter-to-date. Can you just clarify what was the baseline? And any insights about the geographic mix of that? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, we're not -- I think we've said enough about the Tesla Cyber Truck. We're not going to -- this is not the right forum for us to do product launches. But I think it would be -- I mean, my opinion, and this could be totally wrong. I could be totally out to lunch here, but I think the Tesla Cyber Truck is our best product ever. That's my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. And demand is not -- it seems to be strong. We should be production constrained this quarter.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, that's right. The baseline from the comment earlier that I made was looking at this point in the quarter in Q2, and order rates are strong, I would say, in all markets. I think we're very encouraged as a team at the reception of our products as more and more people become aware of electric vehicles. I think competitive products help raise that awareness, and overall interest is just increasing. So our focus internally is to increase production as fast as we can both with the existing equipment and accelerating our timelines on new capacity. We believe that everybody should be driving an electric car, so we need to move as quickly as we can.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, absolutely. We want to get the Tesla volume to where it is perhaps somewhere on the order of 1%, replacing 1% of the global fleet over time. That's, I think, the global fleet is pretty big. We think that's a good one to aim for, which is about 20 million vehicles a year, just by the way. But I do think that the demand for new cars will rise as the world transitions away from combustion engine vehicles, just as when people had CRT TVs, there's no cathode ray tube TVs, the sales rate was just basically replacement rate. You wouldn't really buy a new CRT TV unless yours broke. But when flat screens came out, there was a big step change in demand because now getting a big flat screen TV was much better than having a small CRT TV. I think we'll see the same thing with electric vehicles, which is that instead of people just buying a car just because their last car wore out, they'll buy an electric car because they're fundamentally a better car, and especially if it's got self-driving.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Pierre Ferragu with New Street Research.
Pierre Ferragu:
Hi. Thank you for taking my question. I just feel how you...
Elon Musk:
Hi, Pierre. We cannot hear you.
Martin Viecha:
It's very quiet, so we can't hear you.
Pierre Ferragu:
Can you hear me now?
Elon Musk:
It's muffled, but we'll try.
Pierre Ferragu:
Okay. Sorry for that. So, I was wondering how your thinking has evolved on Model S and Model X. It looks like the deliveries have stayed to the deliveries of the previous quarter and that Model 3 has indeed cannibalized the demand for these cars, quite a big deal. So how are you thinking about these two models going forward? What's the strategy you have in mind? And I have a quick follow-up on the Model Y.
Elon Musk:
The Model S and X are really niche -- they're really niche products. I mean, they're very expensive, made in low volume. To be totally frank, we're continuing to make them more for sentimental reasons than anything else. They're really of minor importance to the future.
Pierre Ferragu:
Okay. That makes sense. And then, my question...
Elon Musk:
They're great cars. The Model S I think if you want -- I mean, the Model S literally won Motor Trend's best car ever in history by the way. I think if you're out there and you're buying -- and you're going to buy a Model S, I think you just made a mistake, to be totally frank. It's incredible, especially the new one with variable damping suspension, hospital operating room, HEPA filter for air purification, the raven powertrain. It's the fastest car in the world, and it's just so easy to drive. It makes you feel like Superman driving that car. It's incredibly safe. It's just an amazing vehicle. And then, Model S, I think, is like Faberge egg of cars. I mean, not Model X. Model X is like the Faberge egg of cars. Yeah, that's why so many artists and musicians buy the car. It's an art piece basically.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, just to add -- I agree. They're absolutely phenomenal cars. And we are increasing production on our S and X lines for this quarter in response to increasing demand. And so, I think part of the story here is, as we have launched, ramped and stabilized Model 3, that's kind of consumed a lot of the attention around the company. But now as that has stabilized, we're able to focus our attention and balance that between S and X and Model 3. So, the delivery numbers in Q3 understated the interest in the product for that quarter. And we continue to see strength in the order rate, which we anticipate will be reflected in S and X deliveries in Q4.
Elon Musk:
I mean, Model S -- basic Model S at this point has a range of 370 miles. Actually, technically it's 373, but we actually certified it incorrectly as 370, but it's 373. And there are some software improvements that we think will make that even better. I forgot to mention, we're also expecting there's going to be an over-the-air improvement that will improve the power of the Model S, X, and 3. That's, by the way coming in a few weeks. Should be in the order of 5% power improvement due to improved firmware. Drew, do you want to say anything on that?
Drew Baglino:
Yeah, we just continue to learn how to optimize the motor control in our products. And yeah, so 5% improvement for all Model 3 customers and 3% for S and X.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, and there's also the single pedal driving that will improve the range as well.
Drew Baglino:
Very excited about that. It's an improvement in comfort and feel.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, it's easier to drive. And it improves the range.
Drew Baglino:
Yes. And faster super charging.
Elon Musk:
Faster super charging, yeah.
Drew Baglino:
For Standard Range and Standard Range Plus customers, which is a big deal.
Elon Musk:
I don't think there's ever been a situation in history where you buy a car and it gets way better over time just through the software. Not a little bit better, but a lot.
Drew Baglino:
It's very exciting, I think. Yeah. As a customer myself, I enjoy these updates. I always look forward to them.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, might move the Model S range to almost 380 or high 370s with the update.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And we're not stopping to work there. We'll continue working on these developments.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, absolutely.
Martin Viecha:
Pierre, did you have a follow-up question?
Pierre Ferragu:
Yeah, just a quick one on the Model Y. So, I was wondering what you have learned with S and X that make you think maybe when you launch Model Y, you have some cannibalization of demand on the Model 3? And have you started to think about that and how to approach it?
Elon Musk:
No, I don't think. We're not expecting to see cannibalization of Model 3, one is a sedan and one is an SUV.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, the best comparison we have for that is when we launched Model X and we had Model S at the time.
Elon Musk:
Model S sales increased.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, and we didn't see any cannibalization there.
Elon Musk:
The opposite. When we launched Model X, Model S sales increased.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, so that's the best comparison that we have.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Dan Levy with Credit Suisse.
Dan Levy:
Hi. Good evening. Thank you for taking the questions. First, just wanted to ask a question on Giga III. You're targeting 3,000 units a week. But we saw with Fremont that the ramp on Model 3 was lumpy. And you sort of ramp and then sort of cut production to fix the bottlenecks. Given this is a brand-new capacity, how smooth should we expect production to be on a week-to-week basis? Meaning, once you hit the 3,000, is that 3,000 you could go every single week in a quarter or is it still going to be lumpy within a quarter?
Elon Musk:
I mean, if you've got a crystal ball, we'd love to use it.
Dan Levy:
I'm looking for it.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, it should be smoother than Model 3 because there's a lot of commonality of parts. But -- and I think if you look over a reasonable enough time frame, the production will actually be fairly smooth. But from a week to week standpoint, it obviously will not be. It will be about as smooth as, say, the stock market. How smooth is the stock market from one week to the next? But if you just extend the time period to, say, two or three-quarters, it will be very rapid steady ground. And obviously it will go way past 3,000 a week.
Dan Levy:
Okay. Great. Thank you. And then, just a follow-up. You mentioned -- Elon, you mentioned earlier in your comments that one of the things you're optimistic on in the future is Tesla Energy, and I think we understand the part that one of the challenges in the past was sort of a reallocation of resources away from Energy to the Auto side. Could you just talk to where you see the greatest pockets of growth in Energy, is it Solar or Storage? And now that you can reallocate resources, what would that entail in terms of capacity? Or what does reallocation of resources look like?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think, on a percentage basis, Solar will grow the fastest, but Storage will also grow higher on a percentage basis. I think both over time will grow faster than Automotive. They're starting from a smaller base. I think, especially if you look at sort of -- if you look at like year-over-year growth, it will be absolutely incredible, I think. From one quarter to the next, there might be some fluctuations due to seasonality or some short-term parts shortage or you name it, but over the course of, say, a year, gigantic increase. Also, with Solar, it's hard to install a lot of solar in the winter, especially on the East Coast. The roofs are full of snow and ice. So you will expect to see some seasonality there, but then it ramps up quite a bit as the weather improves. Yeah.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. And I think that's unfortunately all the time we have today. Appreciate all your questions, and we're looking forward to talking to you next quarter. Thank you very much, and goodbye.
Elon Musk:
All right, thanks.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen and thank you for your patience. You've joined the Tesla Q2 2019 Financial Results and Q&A Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session and instructions will be given at that time. [Operator Instructions] As a reminder this conference may be recorded. I would now like to turn the call over to your host, Senior Director of Investor Relations, Martin Viecha. Sir, you may begin.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, a lot, Steven; and good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Tesla's second quarter 2019 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, JB Straubel, Zachary Kirkhorn, and a number of other executives. Our Q2 results were announced at about 1:45 PM Pacific Time in the update letter we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially, and due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today’s call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow up. [Operator Instructions.] But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thank you. So last quarter we delivered more than 95,000 vehicles, which is a record for Tesla. To put that in perspective, it's nearly an 80% increase in deliveries compared to the second quarter of last year. I mean it's sometimes hard for people to appreciate when you have a large manufactured item with a complex double supply chain, just how difficult that is. I'm incredibly proud of the Tesla team for being able to do that. I think this level of growth is possibly unprecedented, might be the fastest that any large complex manufactured item has grown in history. So just, I think, really great work by the Tesla team to achieve that outcome, and we expect growth to continue in the future at -- for several years to come at 50% to 100% level. So – it’s like generally that's not well appreciated how the quarters [ph] to grow at that rate. So -- achieving record number of deliveries is an important milestone and it shows the rapid progress we've made in managing our global logistics and delivery operations at high volume. And as I said, all this was achieved, thanks to the tremendous hard work of the entire Tesla team. Model 3 was once again the best-selling premium vehicle in the U.S., outselling all of its gas-powered equivalents combined. In Europe, Model 3 is approaching sales levels of its established premium competitors, and it was awarded a five-star rating from Euro NCAP earlier this month. This is in addition to Model 3 receiving an overall five-star rating in the U.S. from NHTSA and including earning five stars in every category and subcategory and achieving the lowest probability of injury of any vehicle ever tested. Motor Trend also recently selected Model S as the best vehicle they have ever tested in their 70-year history across all other cars. So, Motor Trend, which is arguably the leading authority in evaluating vehicles, the Motor Trend Car of the Year is the most coveted award. It's pretty incredible that they would say that Model S in their entire 70-year history is the best vehicle they have ever evaluated. This is despite Tesla not buying any advertising in Motor Trend, and I think it speaks to their journalistic integrity. That's something special. So -- and since the vehicle that they evaluated, we've actually made -- commenced advancements of both Model S and Model X including our recent update of a new suspension with active damping capability, and an all-new drivetrain that's capable of 370-mile range in the Model S and 325-mile range in the Model X. We’ve also issued numerous software updates and improvements that have made Model S and Model X faster, safer, and added dozens of new features. Just like Model 3, Model S and X have the hardware needed for future full self-driving capability. As we look ahead to the rest of the year and into 2020, we remain focused on launching new vehicle and energy programs further expanding our manufacturing operations and continuing to improve customer service. We remain focused on international expansion because local production is essential to being cost competitive. By the end of this year, we will -- we expect to be producing Model 3s in volume out of Gigafactory Shanghai. And as you can see it from the photos in our quarterly letter, the equipment installation there is progressing well. We also have to finalize a location for our European Gigafactory before the end of the year. Here at Fremont, preparations for Model Y production has already begun. Since Model Y has high component overlap with Model 3, it should be -- we expect it to be a lot easier to ramp. It's something on the order of three quarters of all the parts are common between Model 3 and Model Y. And we expect the manufacturing costs for Model Y despite additional content to be approximately the same as Model 3. This quarter, we opened 25 new service locations and added more than 100 mobile service vehicles to our fleet. And although our fleets have a total -- Tesla fleet size has doubled in the past 12 months, which is like again, just kind of a crazy thing to consider that Tesla is almost doubling all cumulative production every year. This is a totally mad thing to make as many cars in the year as we've made in our entire history, and to have that be an ongoing trend, I think it's difficult for people to really feel an exponential. So, we didn’t evolve to feel an exponential, we can feel linear, but we could only understand an exponential at a cognitive level. But Tesla is expanding at an exponential rate. And in fact, if you look at the Tesla cumulative deliveries chart like year-over-year cumulative deliveries, it's about the cleanest exponential graph I have ever seen. So, obviously, if that trend continues, results I think are going to be pretty amazing and I think that will continue. So, we've been able to improve service considerably and you can imagine that if -- obviously, if we're doubling our fleet every year, managing service is quite difficult. It's like a total -- because service scales as -- not just with new production but as the total fleet scales, service needs to scale. And we're going to scale service in a way that's sensible from a cost standpoint, a bit better that kind of it is really quite a difficult challenge to scale. Nonetheless, we've made massive improvements in service, especially in parts waiting -- time to wait for parts and in collision repair, and we've in-sourced a great deal of the collision repair activities which has had, I think, quite a good effect on customer happiness. And this will continue in the months to come. So, it’s a very important milestone, and I think we believe Tesla has – is now at the point of being self-funding, and we expect to be cash flow -- free cash flow positive in future quarters with the possible temporary exceptions around the launch and ramp of new product. From a profitability standpoint, we expect to be probably around breakeven this quarter and profitable next quarter, so that's -- I feel pretty confident about that. And then in terms of deliveries, we expect deliveries to be between 360,000 and 400,000. We expect production to be a slightly higher number than that, and demand to be a slightly higher number than that. So, people often confuse deliveries, production, and orders for Tesla, and they're actually three different numbers. So yes, you obviously cannot deliver more than you make, and so typically we will make more than we deliver. And then the demand generation activities kind of move in kind of like -- to get together with production like it doesn't make sense to put a lot of effort into demand generation if production can't meet the demand and likewise. So, what just happened is, we'll solve the production issues, and then the say okay, we need to increase demand, address demand, and then it may increase production, then increase demand. I -- and it’s like a few get caught up in the details a lot, but if you look at the actual results, like I said look at cumulative deliveries over time for Tesla, cleanest exponential you've ever seen, extrapolate that curve [ph]. So, there's a trend [ph] lot to be excited about at Tesla, and we'll have more to share in the coming weeks and months. Zach is there anything you'd like to say about our results?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes sure. Thanks Elon. A few things I want to highlight before moving into the Q&A. Overall, Q2 was a strong quarter for Tesla. I'm extremely proud of the team for the progress we've made. We've achieved record vehicle production and delivery, record storage production and deployment, record services and other revenue with a corresponding reduced loss. As we've mentioned a few times, we stabilized international logistics and delivery operations at higher volumes, and we saw gross margin improvement in nearly every aspect of the business adjusting for the impact of regulatory credit revenue. As a result of these accomplishments, we once again achieved strong free cash flows which is only partially attributed to working capital benefits. We also successfully raised roughly $2.4 billion in net proceeds in May. Thus, we exited the quarter with $5 billion in cash and cash equivalents, the highest in our history. Our net loss reduced significantly relative to Q1 aided by higher volumes and progress on cost efficiencies. A few things to note. There's $117 million within operating expenses for restructuring. We had a sequential reduction of $104 million related to regulatory credit, which is inherently lumpy. And in our other income line, we saw a $66 million reduction. This is nearly entirely due to foreign exchange, which we don't hedge. GAAP automotive gross margin only reduced slightly, despite the reduction in credit revenue and expected reductions in our vehicle average selling prices. Adjusting for the impact of credits, automotive gross margin improved materially. For Model S and Model X, ASPs were impacted by pricing actions applied to inventory of vehicles built prior to the launch of our powertrain and suspension upgrades in April, the majority of which were sold and delivered in Q2. For Model 3, global ASPs stabilized during the quarter at roughly $50,000, a sequential reduction, yet gross profit per Model 3 improved representing the continued success of our cost management efforts. Note that we continue to defer a significant portion of revenue associated with full self-driving, which will be recognized in future periods upon the release of additional features. Operating expenses, net of restructuring continues to improve as well despite the increases in volume, reflecting the immense focus on improving our operating efficiency. And while operating expenses and capital expenses may appear to be unnaturally low this quarter, that's not the case. Rather these reflect continued progress on cost efficiency and ability to scale our core technologies and processes. If we take a step back here, I think it's important to remember that Tesla is on a long-term journey and it's difficult to see the full picture looking quarter-to-quarter. We committed that Model 3 would be a transformative product both for the industry and our business. Three years ago, we unveiled the Model 3. Two years ago, we brought the product to market. One year ago, we demonstrated our ability to build the Model 3 at high rate. So far this year, we've demonstrated our ability to manage global deliveries and logistics at a higher rate, but the most important thing is that we've demonstrated our ability to generate significant organic demand as nearly all orders generated in Q2 were non-reservation holders. And thus far in Q3, our order pacing is ahead of where we were at this point in Q2. And as we noted in our Q2 production and delivery release, our order backlog increased over the course of Q2. Ultimately, the Model 3 is accomplishing what our business needs it to do. It expanded our sales and customer base, enabling us to generate cash we need to reinvest. In the process, we've appropriately managed our operating expenses and have reduced the cost of running the business. This is critically important because I feel as though we've broken through a baseline fixed cost barrier, enabled by the success of the Model 3 business. With continued focus on execution and cost management, the next 12 to 18 months should be the most exciting yet. During this time, we believe that Gigafactory, Shanghai will be producing at scale. Model Y will be in production, addressing the most popular vehicle segment. Our European Gigafactory will be well underway. Our autonomous driving feature suite will continue to develop; energy products business will grow and maybe a few other things along the way. And while there's inherent risk in any large and ambitious set of projects, our intent is to grow and invest as fast as we can afford to. With the cash we have on hand and the stabilization of Model 3 across the key areas as I've noted, we believe we're in great shape for this next phase of growth.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Now let's start taking some first questions. Sorry about that. Sorry. Go ahead.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Okay. So, an important update is that JB Straubel, our Co-founder and Chief Technology Officer will be transitioning to a Senior Advisor from the CTO role; and Drew Baglino will be taking over most of JB's responsibilities. I'd like to thank JB for his fundamental role in creating and building Tesla. Thank you, JB.
JB Straubel:
Thanks, Elon.
Elon Musk:
If we hadn't had lunch in 2003, Tesla wouldn't exist basically.
JB Straubel:
It's been – yeah, it's been quite an adventure, 16 years.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. But lunch with you and Harold Rosen [indiscernible]. That's the reason Tesla exists.
JB Straubel:
I remember it well. And maybe just to add a bit more to that, I'm not disappearing, and I just want to make sure that people understand that this is not some lack of confidence in the company or the team or anything like that. I love the team. I love the company and I always will. So, Drew and I have worked closely together for many, many years, and I have total confidence in Drew, and I'm not going anywhere if there's anything I need to do to be helpful to Drew or the whole team or any of the ongoing projects. Yeah, I mean, I'm actually really happy with how we've kind of phased and transitioned some of these different projects and people in, and I feel like this is a super good process overall. Drew, you want to say anything.
Drew Baglino:
Obviously, big shoes to fill JB, but we have been working closely. In fact, we've already been talking about this project back in 2003 all along and –
Elon Musk:
You guys talked back in 2003 as well?
Drew Baglino:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
Well, 2003 was a good year.
Drew Baglino:
I was graduating and I didn't know what to do.
Elon Musk:
Okay.
Drew Baglino:
I was like, let's do this project. But I – I feel exactly as you feel that we are well set up that we know how to get help where we need to from you, and that we're very excited about the growth ahead of us, about myself and the whole team.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
JB Straubel:
And I'm excited to stay involved in some of our core technologies, and all that help where I can. Just in less of an operational, obviously less – not an executive type role.
Elon Musk:
Sounds good. Well, JB, thanks again for your integral role in creating this company and Drew as well. So that's cool you guys were talking about it in 2003, it sounds like the right year.
JB Straubel:
Good year.
Elon Musk:
Good year.
Drew Baglino:
It was – the technology was ready.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Looks like finally ready, it’s ready to be put in a car, AC propulsion, [indiscernible], you’re going to give those a little credit. Yeah.
JB Straubel:
Yeah. They did some pioneering work.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. So, can we have some questions now?
A - Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. So, we have some first questions from our retail shareholders from say.com. And the first question is, it has been stated that Tesla is supply constrained, not demand constrained. Can you help us shed some light on why Tesla is lowering car cost if supply is constrained?
Elon Musk:
Sure. There's a number of things to consider here. The -- there's really two key dimensions for demand. There's value for money and then there's affordability. Obviously, if somebody simply does not have enough money to buy the car, it doesn't matter how much the value -- how good the value for money is. You can have infinite value for money if somebody does not have the funds to buy the car, they simply can't get it. So, this is just very important to parse those two. And I think there's like – there's tremendous amount of desire to buy our cars, but people obviously they don’t have enough money to buy them, they cannot. So, we have to make the cars more affordable. Actually, like in the U.S., our cars got almost $2,000 more expensive with the expiry of the tax credit on July 1 or partial expiry. And we only dropped the price of the Standard Range Plus Model 3 by $1,000 or actually -- yes, by $1,000. So, the base Model 3 actually got a $1,000 more expensive, which seemed like a reasonable compromise. So that's actually -- we feel sometimes just having this sort of pretty absurd notions like, if it’s tremendous high, you can just charge any price, like, you cannot charge any price. I think making our cars more affordable is also a fundamentally part of the transformation. So, yes, is there anything you want to add?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. I'll just add to that. I agree completely. What I'll add is that, generally speaking, within the Model 3 lineup, the pricing adjustments for our higher trim [ph] cars were slightly more than that for the Standard Plus. So, the – so we'll see how the data plays out on this as we take in more orders, but the expectation is that our mix will move towards higher trim to some extent offsetting some of the ASP adjustments from the pricing changes. And one other thing I'll add is that, we are focusing on a couple of markets as well to target and identify some of our sales, and so some of our pricing adjustments reflect those elements of that strategy.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Essentially, like, we expect average selling prices to be the same within a few percentage points.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
That's correct.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Generally, on ASP, as we noted in the letter, it was roughly -- even over the course of the quarter, stabilized around $50,000, and we have good visibility into where ASPs are going based on order data. So that gives us one to two months of lead as to where our actual recognized ASPs will be. And so, I would expect some adjustment to our Model 3 ASPs as a result of this pricing change, but the trim mix will offset some of that. And we continue to make great progress on cost efficiencies. And so, overall in that our expectation is that the Model 3 gross margin will continue to grow.
Elon Musk:
Yes. On the gross margin point, like the full self-driving is just – is an extremely important part of the margin calculation, and the features for full self-driving are – only a portion of them have rolled out. So, the revenue recognition on the full self-driving option is limited at first until those features roll out and also the demand for full self-driving package is limited because the features are mostly prospective instead of current. But as those features roll out, I would expect the take rate for full self-driving to increase significantly as well as the recognition -- revenue recognition for full self-driving to obviously match the roll out of the product. So, the gross margin over time will be really quite compelling when factoring in the full self-driving option which is yes, accounted to $7,000 in mid-August, and that number will increase over time.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. The second question is many of us who follow Tesla closely are incredibly excited about Battery and Powertrain Investor Day and its technology implications. Can you provide us any more detail on when this will be and what will be covered?
Elon Musk:
Yes, I think for Battery Day, we're going to do a comprehensive review of cell chemistry, module and pack, architecture, and a manufacturing plan that has a clear roadmap to a terawatt-hour per year. The time for this probably is about six months like maybe February or March next year, show and tell [ph].
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much. The next question is you stated on the Q4 2018 earnings call that customer service was a personal priority for 2019. Can you update us on what has been done to-date to ensure that all owners are receiving an industry-leading customer experience?
Elon Musk:
Sure. I meet with the service team multiple times a week and get daily updates on the reliability of the vehicle. We -- the best service of course is no service. That's like the vehicle just reliability and quality being so good that service is rarely required. That's what the main goal is like, eliminate the need for services. Then in terms of increasing service resources, initially we're opening service centers as fast as we can and have already opened to 25 new service locations this quarter and that will increase -- the rate of service center opening will increase dramatically through the course of this year as well as more Mobile Service. Mobile Service is really great, because it's like we just come to you and fix the car wherever you are, and that's hard to beat that for convenience. For cost delivery, we've made vast improvements to logistics for getting parts to service centers. Hey, Jerome do you want -- Jerome -- how we manage the service -- global service and--
Jerome Guillen:
Yes, as you pointed out, the best service is no service. So, we're trying to continue improving the quality of the cars and track this daily and fewer and fewer service visits are required from the most recent cars that we're building. So, we're on a good trend there. We also need a lot fewer work to finish the cars in the factory. Besides that, we still we are making more parts to all the service centers and we ship everything same day pretty much so that people don't have to wait for cars -- for parts, and we accelerate service and increase capacity. There's a lot of improvements that we've already implemented and many more on the way. So, I am relatively optimistic and I'm happy to help with the service team.
Elon Musk:
Yes. We had the regional service heads of U.S. at the factory last week, and it was incredibly helpful, just a closed loop on with service and production and with the software team. And for example, like a lot of services visits are just questions about how to use the car and...
Jerome Guillen:
And it's the number one visit is, how to use Autopilot test. So, yes, a bit of education there helps.
Elon Musk:
Like how do I turn it on.
Jerome Guillen:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
Like, it's good. It's like how do I turn it on? Okay. So just providing better feedback on user interface and usually how do you turn it on. And yes, a whole bunch of things that are quite elementary to reduce service load.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. The next question is; in April, Gigafactory one had efficiency of about 23 out of the 35-gigawatt hours theoretical capacity. Has this been improved yet? And is Tesla still cell constrained? Are there any near-term plans to increase the plant’s theoretical capacity?
Elon Musk:
Drew?
Drew Baglino:
We have seen improvements in the 23-gigawatt hour number. We're in the high 20s now with the trajectory continuing upward. We're not...
Elon Musk:
So about 28-ish?
Drew Baglino:
Yes 28-ish. I would say, we're not so constrained for any of our activities at the moment.
Elon Musk:
Cell volume is approximately matching the production ramp rate.
Drew Baglino:
Yes.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much. And the last question is what is the new laser facility?
Elon Musk:
Nothing major. It's just a distribution warehouse.
Jerome Guillen:
Yes, we're optimizing the real estate trying to conciliate everything under one roof, reduce the cost, there’s nothing special there.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. Latif, we can start the Q&A question queue on the call.
Operator:
Yes sir. Our first question comes from the line of Dan Galves of Wolfe Research. Your line is open.
Dan Galves:
Hey, thanks very much for taking the questions, and congrats on the $5 billion cash number, I'm halfway expecting to some headlines tomorrow of seeing Tesla's got too much cash on the balance sheet. I was wondering if you could update us on Gigafactory China. We don't have a great sense of what delivery volumes in China are for Model 3 at the moment. Some sources are around maybe 3,000 or 4,000 per month. What have you seen in terms of order flow and demand since you announced pricing at a local product that gives you confidence that you can get to 3,000 per week type of demand in that market?
Elon Musk:
Yes, we don't talk too much about like detailed price plans, but are you asking like what do I think the long-term demand for Model 3 is in Greater China region? I think it's about, from Shanghai Gigafactory, I think it's actually -- long-term demand is about 5,000 a week.
Dan Galves:
Okay. And -- sounds good. And have you considered potentially sourcing cars to Europe from that China plant at all?
Elon Musk:
No. Our plan is to source cars to Greater Europe area from Fremont, California until we have European Gigafactory operational. And that's -- but that's probably a couple of years before, it's probably 2021 before we have an operational Gigafactory in Europe. And so, until that time, we will source from California. Yeah, it's like, this is a speculation and it's my opinion, but so what I think say long-term demand is for Model 3, it's probably 15,000 units a week globally something like that.
Dan Galves:
Okay. Thanks for taking my questions.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. We’ll go to the next question please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Toni Sacconaghi of Bernstein. Your line is open.
Toni Sacconaghi:
Yes, thank you. I was wondering if you can comment about whether you felt that Q2 benefited from consumers in the U.S. sort of rushing out to buy Model 3 in advance of the declining federal tax credit, a phenomenon that you sort of saw in Q4. And part of the reason I ask is, at least by my analysis it looks like maybe 70% of the Model 3 sold in the quarter were in the U.S., which is sort of higher than your normalized percentage of U. S. sales. And so, do you feel that that phenomena may have occurred in Q2? And are you still confident that Q3 deliveries can improve sequentially? And beyond the data point that you provided on the call that the orders quarter data are better than last quarter, is there anything else you can point to that provides that confidence?
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I think we'll -- demand in Q3 will exceed Q2. It has thus far, and I think we'll see some acceleration of that. So -- and then, I think Q4 will be, I think very strong. So, we expect that quarter-over-quarter improvements. I think Q1 next year will be tough. I think Q3 or Q4 will be good, Q1 will be tough. Q2 will be not as bad, but still tough. And then I see like Q3 and Q4 next year will be incredible.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah, just to add on the tax credit step down, so the step down from Q2 to Q3 was significantly lower than the step down from Q4 to Q1. It's also important to keep in mind that there's seasonality in the auto business in Q1, which also is part of the impact. But generally speaking, our order rates so far this quarter is higher than where we were at this point in Q2, and we haven't seen a significant impact on U.S. based orders as a result of the step down.
Toni Sacconaghi:
Okay. Thank you for that. If I could just follow-up. Elon, I'm wondering, if you can comment on whether you believe Model 3 is having any cannibalization impact on S and X sales or why you think that – or why else there might be sort of a structural step down in the demand and delivery levels relative to what we’ve seen over the last five or six years?
Elon Musk:
Actually, we're just talking about this earlier today. We're not quite sure ourselves. I think there's some cannibalization, maybe false expectation in the market that there's like some big overhaul coming for S and X, which would then cause people to hesitate to buy, if they think there's some like radical redesign coming, which is why I've stated publicly that this is not the case. The Model S and X today are radically better than the ones that – when we first started production, especially S. Like say like 2013 or 2012 Model S compared to today's Model S night and day. In fact, I still run into people I know, who have like 2013 Model S, and they think it hasn't changed. And like it is dramatically better in every way. But we don't do model years. We just roll in improvements as they come. So – but I think there is maybe a communications issue, where people don't realize just how much better the S and X are today than when we first started. And I think we actually want to address that communications issue and just get a better understanding of– from the front lines like what demand should be higher for S and X than it is and will get to the bottom of it and fix it.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Thank you very much. Let’s go to the next question.
Operator:
Next question comes from Emmanuel Rosner of Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.
Unidentified Analyst:
Hey, it's Edison on for Emmanuel. Just first question on the guidance, I know previously there was a target out there of 25% kind of on S and X and Model 3. Just wondering is the updated one is that suggesting that that's no longer in play for the year or kind of what are the implications with today's update?
Elon Musk:
Well, if you factor in the full self-driving option. I think it is in play for the year. We seem to get the features done, make sure they are great, roll them out, and recognize revenue and increase the take rate on full self-driving. There's also – for the existing fleet, there's a very significant opportunity to upgrade the existing fleet to full self-driving. Since mostly he has not purchased this option yet. So there's a significant margin potential for the existing fleet to upgrade to full self-driving, which most of the fleet can. So, yes, absolutely, I think, like long term we are talking 25%, 30%. Not long term meaning like a year. Long term, like, in terms of vernacular that 30% gross margin is I think quite likely.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. We continue to take significant costs out of the Model 3 in particular as well and Jerome can comment further on this. But every week -- nearly every week we had record lows on our labor content to build the vehicle. And we saw an ASP adjustment, net reduction in Model 3 from Q1 to Q2, yet the gross profit on the vehicle expanded, attributed to the cost reduction efforts that are underway.
Jerome Guillen:
Labor cost saw more than 50% reduction in one year. Yes, it's progressing every quarter.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I just want, like, to see what the labor hours were quarter-over-quarter.
Jerome Guillen:
Yes. Reduced in half, yes, since the Q3 last year, but it's also all the -- for the fact that's associated with spares, the scrap is reduced to pretty much nothing, reduced 90% year-over-year. Spares are just more than half. So we're -- our goal is to make the car more affordable and sort of pushing everyday, yes. And every week we'll beat records on most lines.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Jerome Guillen:
And in terms of output and cost per unit, yes. We're in very good dynamic and level of fiscal discipline that I have not -- we have not had in the past.
Elon Musk:
Agreed, yes. So, like, for a core financial health standpoint, I think, I'd just like to echo Jerome's words, like, I think Tesla's fiscal discipline is dramatically better than times in the past.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Joseph Osha of JMP Securities. Your line is open.
Joseph Osha:
Hello, hello. Listen -- listening to you talk about mix here and the fact that you're running a single shift of your S and X facilities in Fremont, I'm wondering is there maybe some potential to reconfigure the floor space there a bit? And is that something that you're thinking about?
Elon Musk:
Well, we are reconfiguring the floor space at Fremont and there's quite a lot of factory space that's probably taken up with the S, X parts warehousing, parts for the S, X line. And we don't really need that, so that's where we're putting a lot of the Model Y activity. Jerome, do you want to…
Jerome Guillen:
Yes. We are improving the material delivery for S and X just like we have done for Model 3 of some ready components. We reduced production part warehousing costs by again 90%, 9-0, since Q3 last year and so we're making a lot of room. We have - we're much more efficient with parts delivery. It helps that increasing production actually. So that’s space that we cleared out, I'm looking at it right now in Fremont, which is going to put Model Y stuff in there. So every -- if you visit the factory from, I would say, every six months you'd have a hard time recognizing and finding their way. Yeah. It's constantly changing and evolving.
Joseph Osha:
And as a follow -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Yes, just like efficiently factory, both Fremont and Giga is like just the rate of improvement which is not slowing down has been incredible. It's like you're just like you can feel it and see it.
Joseph Osha:
And just as a follow-on then, could we see you manage to make 8,000, 7,500, 8,000 Model 3s in Fremont by the end of the year you think?
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Joseph Osha:
Okay. Thank you very much.
Elon Musk:
I mean I feel confident it's -- let's just say that the trend is very clearly towards being able to get to 10,000 vehicles a week of which that would be -- there is rough numbers like 8,300 to 8,600 Model 3s and the balance in S and X. So, there's sort of 1,600 to 1,800 SX. In round numbers 8,500 3s, 1,500 SX per week, but probably a bit more than that.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Dan Levy from Credit Suisse. Your line is open.
Dan Levy:
Hi, great. Thanks for taking the question. I wanted to ask about your Reg credits in particular the non-ZEV piece. You're not disclosing the ZEV piece anymore, but just a couple of questions on this. First how can we think -- is there any quarterly cadence to think about this? And then what's the composition of this? Is this going purely to European OEMs? There's obviously one automaker that you've agreed with. I don't know if there are any others that you're looking at. And lastly to what extent can you -- or are you willing to sacrifice pricing in Europe to sell higher volumes to generate more Reg credits? And are you having discussions with other automakers on this one?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, on your question about the cadence of regulatory credits, it's -- it is -- generally as I've commented in the past, we expect regulatory credits to become a more meaningful part of our business. On a quarter-to-quarter basis, it's very difficult to forecast to them. As you saw from Q1 to Q2, that declined. And as you model regulatory credits in Q3, I would not expect a significant increase in regulatory credits, although it's hard to forecast exactly. The regulatory credits composition is a mixture of these particular deals that are one-time. There's also some that are production-based over time. Production-based ones are easier to forecast because it's based on cars that we build and we get an outset to that way. The deal-specific ones are lumpier which makes it more difficult. And then your final question was on does it make sense to sacrifice pricing to drive regulatory credit in certain markets. It might. I'm not sure if we've specifically gone into the details of that, but generally, we're selling cars in markets at the prices we think are appropriate and the regulatory credits into something traditional. We generally try not to run the business based on regulatory credit revenue.
Elon Musk:
The regulatory credits is like I mean it's a relatively small part of the equation for Tesla. So, -- I think the ZEV credit situation, I think, really needs reformed because the market for ZEV credits is negligible. Now some of what's happening here is, other manufacturers are kind of like waiting to see how their EV sales due before buying any credits from Tesla. And so it kind of depends on how that goes, if they sell more EVs then there's not really any to do deal with Tesla and if they sell fewer [than theirs].
Martin Viecha:
Great. Next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Colin Rusch of Oppenheimer. Your line is open.
Colin Rusch:
Can you walk us through the plan for battery sourcing in China? How many -- how much of the supply is going to come from internally produced batteries? How much is coming from externally? And what's your expectation around cost per watt hours as you start to ramp?
Elon Musk:
I don't know if we want to talk about the details of battery supply. We've got a good handle on. We don't expect to be self constrained in China for the next year, I don't know. Drew what do you think?
Drew Baglino:
Yes, that's what our plan looks like right now. In terms of internal versus external, I think we should wait until we have our discussion early next year. But yes, we have agreements in place with -- we're good for next year as you say Elon.
Elon Musk:
I think you probably need to study or reset like Master Plan for our Powerplant 3, but it's really like yes to some degree, but Battery Day will be kind of national --, which is like okay, how do we get from kind of – any-tens of gigawatt hours per year to multiple terawatt hours per year. What's -- that's a pretty dry scale increase in -- so yes. Sort of roughly 100, like a 28 gigawatt hours right now well actually there is one where you count the factories in Japan so, a little over 30% to 35% or something like that. And how do we get like 2 terawatt hours a year? What would you like? So to order bank to increase.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
That's the way you have to think about it because that's what you need to do.
Elon Musk:
Exactly. In order to make fundamental shift in the world's energy usage and really transform things to sustainable energy future, if you're not in the terawatt hour range it's like, it's a nice new story but it is not fundamentally changing the energy equation.
Colin Rusch:
Okay. And can I have a follow-up question around Model S and Model X saturation? Obviously you guys have some ideas around how big that market is? How should we be thinking about sustainable volumes and pricing on those volumes? Obviously we're seeing some lower numbers here and I think that's a core element of what's going on with the story that as we see pricing drop and volumes drop what are the right numbers to think about you guys from a planning standpoint in terms of sellthrough on both the Model S and Model X?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think it's probably too much focused on S and X . The S and X -- they are nice, but they're not -- and it's like without them we couldn't spell sexy. So the main reason, well not the main reason, but a reason is we want to keep spelling sexy. So, that is a reason, I should say not the main reason, but a reason to keep going with the S and X. But the story for Tesla in future is fundamentally Model 3 and Model Y and I think like my guess is like long-term sales of – long term meaning, a couple of years I think. The demand for -- sales demand for 3 is like on the order of three quarters of a million units a year, and it's probably 1.25 million per year for Model Year, so they combined is like maybe two million from those two vehicles, and then S/X is like there may be 80,000 to 100,000 a year. So it's like 4% or 5% of the volume in 3 and Y. And then you could throw like a truck in there, pickup truck and a semi, but it just gets smaller and smaller. So they are great products, but they’re -- from a volume standpoint, they're not all that important in the long-term.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let’s go to the next question please.
Operator:
The next question comes from Pierre Ferragu of New Street Research. Your line is open.
Pierre Ferragu:
Hey, thank you for taking my question. I'd like to ask you Elon about distributions. So you made like -- you guys made a big change at the beginning of the year going from like an almost 100% on line distribution model, you tried to push back on test drive and get people to buy the car, try it and return it if they don't like it. So could you give us an update on how it is progressing? Do you see this start becoming mostly like an online distribution on -- following an online distribution model? And I saw you opened 25 new retail locations in the quarter, so how do you see your retail footprints evolving over time?
Elon Musk:
Actually we've opened 25 service locations. I think really what we find is that the word-of-mouth for Tesla is incredibly good. So once there's a new piece of customers in a particular area, they love the cars and they talk to all their friends about it and that's really what drives sale. So if you think of like retail locations like a viral seed in an area. It would grow organically by itself, but the retail location actually is like a viral seed. It's not, they aren't needed, they are just -- they are like an accelerant. What is needed for sales in any given area and I'd say this worldwide, frequently told like this country is different or that country is different. Like people around the world pretty much want the same thing in my experience. They have to have a service location that's convenient, so it can't be like you've got to drive eight to five hours to a service location. So, you got to have service, you to have supercharging and charging all sorted out, you could have good consumer financing and then the price must make sense. And any place where those four things are true, our sales are great. So, we're rolling out service centers like crazy. Service centers are the key to sales, not the retail locations.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yeah. And we're going city-by-city on the service center point. We're looking at where our populations are of existing customers. We're mapping driving times from those customers to the service centers inclusive of traffic to improve densification of our service centers in locations in which our customers currently reside. We do have areas that are underrepresented for service centers, where the drive time is too long, where there are population that don't have appropriate access to charging or service centers and we are working as fast as we can to get places up and running in those areas. So it's very systematically being mapped out with a focus on service and supercharging as opposed to our retail presence.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Supercharging is incredibly important to us. You can't just have like 80% of the routes somebody who wants to take, you need 100% routes, a car is like it's really a freedom to travel, anything that inhibits freedom of travel, it –impairs the fundamental value of the product.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
All perceived.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, exactly, real all perceived freedom of travel.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Joseph Spak of RBC Capital Markets. Your question please.
Joseph Spak:
Thanks. So, Elon you mentioned the importance of full self-driving for gross margin. You've also mentioned the importance of China. Do you expect to be able to offer the full self-driving suite that you plan to offer in the U.S. and China? And I guess, even in Europe, where they've also been a little bit tougher on regulating?
Elon Musk:
Yeah, we expect to be able to offer full self-driving actually everywhere except EU, because there's just some committee rules that were put in place years ago that needs to be changed. It's not from a technical standpoint, it's very doable but we just need to work through the regulatory committees to get the regulatory approvals and rules changed. It's just – it all just take a bit longer than other places. But I think, we'll see a lot of pressure from our customers in Europe to have these rules changed, so they can have access to full self-driving. And I think at the end of the day, the regulators will answer to the public. So I think that's just a temporary thing and it's as quite specific to the – to EU rules. And we're just not present really when those rules were drafted. So that's why – got to put in place. But they're making a ton of sense, but we just got to work through the process to change them.
Joseph Spak:
Okay. And then the second question is you know, you mentioned service a number of times. There's always been some I think growing frustration with owners. And you mentioned parts availability and you've issued the dealership model, but I guess how do you plan on increasing parts availability without the corresponding working capital commitment that would be required as the fleet continues to grow?
Elon Musk:
It's actually just taking the parts that were stored in a bunch of warehouses, and just moving them to the service centers. And kind of the just – the thing that make sense is to I think to have the service centers where the parts are kind of all on the wall, it's like a supermarket. Like, you know, you always know, where like the Cocoa Puffs are and you can just go eat there and go and grab it and you just replenish the shelves with parts. And so what we're basically putting all parts that are used more frequently than like six weeks on -- the tray on the walls on service centers. There's no ordering of the parts, you just go take it off the shelf and put it on the car. Really want to get to, not merely same-day service, but same hour, sort of, like, definitely, which applied generally to service.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. And specifically on the working capital piece of this, we actually have a significant amount of service parts inventory. The challenge is, it's just not at the service centers.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And so a lot of the lag that is experienced is, we have to get the part from the distribution center to the service center. And so by moving -- by localizing the parts, I don't expect that to be a large working capital drain on the company. It might actually be the reverse, where we don't need to store as many parts eventually.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And, obviously, just having parts, if they’re made at -- if we make them internally or if they're made at a supplier, just sending them directly to the service center, instead of like having them go through a bunch of distribution outlets. It's -- in fact like when I was in China, from my the last trip, I was like, actually the China team here, is there anything silly that we're doing that we should fix. And they said, yes. Well, several of the parts that require replacement are literally made in China and then we end up shipping them to New Jersey and then back to China. And could we please just ship them like literally across the road. And like, yes, no problem. There's always like crazy things that happen as -- if you're like -- if you have a 45,000 person company and then just basically stop doing silly things. It's -- yes, a lot of what is needed for improvement.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And as the scale of the business increases, the economics of localization, of things like parts distribution make a lot more sense. Whereas in the past when the company was smaller having centralized centers was easier from a cost perspective. So the business -- because the company is growing so fast, as Elon has mentioned, we have to continue to redesign processes and systems to re-stabilize ourselves on a new plateau of volume.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And then, we'll grow again and we'll need to rebuild those processes.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, Tesla is the only company made some things that volume that is fully product integrated all the way through sales and service and charge of everything. So we really just need to look at the total system efficiency and say in the limit, if Tesla was the auto industry, how would we do it to maximize economic efficiency. And that's -- we're got to kind of like recalculate that optimization, as we achieve greater scale. I'm confident we can achieve a fundamentally better economic efficiency than the rest of the auto industry.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Okay. Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today. So thank you so much for all your questions and we'll speak to you again in the next three months. Thank you.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this does conclude today's conference. Thank you for your participation. You may disconnect your lines at this time.
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the Tesla Q1 2019 Financial Results and Q&A webcast. My name is Sherry and I will be your coordinator for today. [Operator Instructions] As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would now like to turn the call over to your host, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations. Mr. Viecha, you may now proceed.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Sherry and good afternoon everyone. Welcome to Tesla’s first quarter 2019 Q&A webcast. I am joined today by Elon Musk, J.B. Straubel, Zachary Kirkhorn and a number of other executives. Our Q1 results were announced at about 2 p.m. Pacific Time in the updated letter we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today’s call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thanks, Martin. On Monday, we hosted our first ever Autonomy Investor Day showcasing our new in-house design full self-driving computer and our AI-based software trained by more than 400,000 Tesla vehicles. All Tesla class vehicles today have all the hardware necessary for full self-driving and over the year updates will enable our customers to use the Tesla ride-hailing network fleet and generate income, which as we said on Autonomy Day a few days ago we think is somewhere between $10,000 and $30,000 a year, in some cases, perhaps more. We are the only company in the world producing our own vehicles and batteries as well as our own in-house chip for full self-driving. We are in a position unlike anyone else in the industry. And in 2020, we expect to have 1 million robo taxis on the road with the hardware necessary for full self-driving. We believe we will have the most profitable autonomous taxi on the market and perhaps – yes. Last quarter, we experienced a massive increase in delivery volume in Europe, similar to what North America experienced last year as well as the massive increase in delivery volume too to China. As far as challenges go, this was a good one to have, because we booked vehicles and consumers support them. This rapid increase in overseas volume strained our logistics operation and resulted in over half of our global deliveries occurring in the final 10 days of Q1. This was the most difficult logistics problem I have ever seen and I have seen some tough ones. So I will say it again, like we initially delivered the half of all vehicles produced or half of all deliveries occurred in literally the final 10 days of Q1. As a result, a large number of vehicles – vehicle deliveries shifted into Q2, which of course, Q1 net income to be negatively impacted. As we said, we could not get the vehicles to customers specifically in time. The response to this, we are in the process of regionally balancing our vehicle bills throughout the quarter. This will make the – this will put much less strain on Tesla, results in a much better delivery experience for customers and have a very positive effect on our working capital in the middle of the quarter. In Q1, Model 3 was yet again the best-selling premium car in the U.S., outselling the runner up by almost 60%. It’s worth just dwelling on that for a moment, just how absurd this is compared to predictions that were made several years ago. There are literally – best knowledge zero predictions that this would happen if you go back just even 5 or 6 years ago, an electric car would be the best-selling premium car in the U.S. And we believe over time we will be the best-selling premium car throughout the world. And in fact, in Norway, in March, we set a record for the highest sales of any car period ever. And that would be something similar in Switzerland as well. So, this is really an incredible achievement by the Tesla team. Since the introduction of standard range, standard range class, only 70% of previous Model 3 have actually been non-premium vehicles, where people actually pay more for a car than they have ever paid for a car. They never anticipated paying this much for a car, but because they want the Model 3 more than they ever wanted a vehicle, they are willing to pay more to get a Model 3. And keep in mind, global expansion for the Model 3 has just begun and this segment is vastly larger internationally than it is in the U.S. We are continuing to make significant improvements to our vehicle lineup, including updating the Model S and X production line to culminate the next generation of powertrains. So, we announced this yesterday and we are now in production with the significantly more balanced powertrains for the Model S and X as well as an upgrade to the suspension system to have active adaptive damping in the suspension system and to enable charging at 200 kilowatts, which is – and there are number of other small changes. If anyone is thinking about upgrading their Model S or X, this is a great time to do it. And we also introduced a loyalty program, where if somebody is an existing Tesla owner and they buy a performance Model S or X, they get their first upgrade for free. So this is – yes, as a thank you and an appreciation to existing Tesla customers. So, they have a longer range. The Model S now has a range of 370 miles. This would actually be at a range of 370 miles and Motor Trend test drove the car a few days ago and drove nonstop all the way from San Francisco to Los Angeles at normal highway speeds and they said they could have even gone faster and they were any headwind as well. So, this is pretty remarkable that electric car could go nonstop between the two biggest cities in California. I mean, I have never – back when I was driving gasoline cars, I always have to stop at the gas station. This is literally better than a gasoline car with the rare exception. And there is also an increase in power, accelerates faster, just better in every way. And we are able to increasing the size of the battery pack, which is a testament to the powertrain team and for us to be able to improve the efficiency of the powertrain by such a significant margin. So, with the recently announced product improvements on Model S and X as well as continued expansion of Model 3 globally, we expect the order rate to increase significantly throughout the year and in commensurate with our production levels. And I am very excited about the future for other products, especially for full self-driving, which will fundamentally transform transport as we know it. The Tesla Semi truck Model Y, improvements to Powerwall, Powerpack, the Solar Roof Version 3 on the energy side. And no question in my mind that Tesla has the most exciting product roadmap of any consumer product company in the world. And finally, I want to thank our employees for their incredible work and our customers for their continued support.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much, Elon. And I think Zachary would like to have some remarks as well.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, thank you, Martin and thanks Elon as well. Overall, as we reflect on the progress of Q1, this was one of the most complicated quarters that I can think of in the history of the company and it was ambitious even by Tesla’s standards. The global expansion of Model 3 was a huge theme within the quarter. We launched the standard range lineup for Model 3 product retooling from Model S and Model X, which Elon just talk about and suspension upgrade and then we implemented various pricing adjustments and work to do the corresponding impact that had on our order mix in deliverable cars. So there is two key themes that I would like to discuss briefly and then we will open it up to Q&A around cash and profitability for the quarter. First, on the cash front, we exited Q1 with $2.2 billion in cash and cash equivalents on hand. This was a $1.5 billion reduction from our 2018 ending cash balance, but this reduction is attributed to two factors. The first is that we paid off $920 million convertible note on March 1. Note for those of you looking to the cash flow statement, $188 million of this is flowing through our operating cash flows. The balance to the $1.5 billion reduction is more than explained by the working capital impact of expanding Model 3 operations overseas. And the two components to this which we have discussed is that an international operation naturally commands additional working capital because of transit times, but then also the stress on our delivery operations meant that not all of our cars will be delivered, both of these factors which occurred in Q1. We do not expect to repeat in Q2 and we expect our quarter ending cash balance to continue to increase going forward. I will also note that we are tracking in April to the largest amount of deliveries from month 1 in the history of the company. On the working capital point, as Elon noted, 50% of our deliveries in Q1 occurred in the final 10 days of the quarter. This is because we prioritized international builds for the first half of the quarter and then U.S. local builds in the second half. This led to a binary inflow of Model 3 cars to EMEA and China and significantly stressed the delivery operations. We also faced important issues in Shanghai and Beijing and worked through those, but that also skewed deliveries towards the final couple of days and weeks in the quarter. So, we are addressing this by regionally – by building regionally balanced and we have already executed on this for Model 3 and S and X will be implemented in the next week or two. The secondary benefit of this is that it enables us to run stable operations throughout the quarter. So, we don’t have to staff many of our delivery areas and logistic operations to the fleet. We expect significant cost savings to come from this. On the P&L side, we incurred $188 million of one-time adjustment that’s led through to net income. $120 million of this was related to S and X pricing adjustments that we announced on February 28. This included a reserve for a potential increase to return it for a residual value guarantee and buyback guarantee of vehicles and also an adjustment for the inventory value of our used Tesla inventory and service volumes. There is an additional $67 million related to Q1 restructuring and other charges that flowed through. Within the automotive business, one thing that I want to note here is that automotive revenue was negatively impacted by $501 million attributed to the reserve increase for S and X that I just noted. If you adjust for this, the decline from Q4 to Q1 in revenue is roughly in line with the decline in deliveries. Within automotive gross margin, Model 3 gross margin declined slightly to approximately 20%. This is due to two factors. One is the pricing adjustments that we made on February 28 as well as the makeshift towards the standard range lineup which we launched. We also successfully executed on a number of cost reductions which offset this impact, labor content warehousing and scrap are the examples of double-digit improvements from Q4 to Q1. In spite of launching the standard range variance, we want to note that North American ASPs are close to $50,000, with the majority of our orders being from long-range bearings of Model 3. In S and X, the impact on margin was more significant. Two major pieces here is the volume reduction led to a reduction in fixed cost absorption, so that impacted our margin as well as the pricing actions that we took on February 28. Even though S and X have been in production for a while, we still continue to make operational improvements there, the labor content as an example, which improved quarter-over-quarter. As we look to the future here, I agree with Elon’s sentiments about the excitement of our product lineup. From a financial standpoint, what we have effectively done here is build an incredible base of knowledge and assets that we can quickly scale and replicate into different products around the world. So, Gigafactory Shanghai is a terrific example of this. As we noted in the letter, CapEx bringing up capacity 50% for Giga Shanghai as compared to Model 3 in the U.S. and then 50% our internal forecast that we are executing against is actually better than that. And Model Y, as we have noted, is built on the Model 3 platform, so we are able to leverage the knowledge there for capital efficient expansion. In energy as well, as we have noted previously, 2019 is a big year for storage, so a lot of exciting improvements coming there and the expansion will help improve margin as we can better utilize some of the assets that we planned investments in that. So just to conclude the opening remarks here, I personally never felt more excited about the future of the company and I am looking forward to the discussion.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much, Zachary. Let’s take some first questions from retail shareholders who have been submitting their questions on say.com. So, the first question is, will Tesla be able to complete their purchase of Maxwell Technologies? What is holding that back?
Elon Musk:
Jonathan, do you want to?
Jonathan Chang:
Yes, hi, it’s Jonathan Chang as our Counsel here. Right now, we are just going through approvals with the SEC. There is not a whole lot of things holding it back. We are on schedule, we are on track. Right now, we are looking to close in mid-May.
Elon Musk:
Great. Thanks.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. The second question is, is Tesla considering and creating an insurance program in order to further simplify the ownership experience and to more accurately take into account safety of driving in Autopilot? The insurance market is very unreliable for Tesla ownership right now.
Elon Musk:
The answer is, yes, we are creating a Tesla insurance product and we hope to launch that in about a month. It will be much more compelling than anything else out there.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much. The next question is, Elon, most people when they think of Tesla only see it as an automotive company. Can you speak to the energy side of the company specifically, the roadmap for when you see the energy side of things really taking off and generating major revenue for the company?
Elon Musk:
Sure. The challenge really is battery cells scarcity. As far as the additional storage is concerned, we basically need an up-sell to support the vehicle production as well as to full power on Powerpack. Last year, in order to have enough cells for Model 3, we actually had to convert all of the lines of the Gigafactory to produce cells just for Model 3 as opposed to Powerpack. So we are essentially scrounging cells from all around the world to continue some level of production on the Powerpack. This year, we think that we will be able to allocate at least maybe 5% to 10% of cell outputs like current, J.B., like what do you guys think?
J.B. Straubel:
Yes, between 5% and 10%, something like that.
Elon Musk:
Yes. So, there are [indiscernible] in a Powerwall in the car so that translates to a – quite a decent number of Powerwalls. And then we will continue to use cells from variety of suppliers around the world. The Powerwall Powerpack, because I don’t have to go through vehicle [indiscernible] are much more adaptable to using variety of cells from other cell providers. So, we expect that Powerwall and Powerpack to see a very significant percentage growth this year maybe on the order of 300% or some quite high number. Sorry, sorry. Yes, 300, confirming it, 300%. So this is a very big percentage growth rate. It’s much faster than an automotive. So over time, we expect that sort of growth rate would hopefully be able to continue and then battery storage will become a bigger and bigger percentage of Tesla’s business over time. We also have – we are also finding a significant increase in retrofit solar this year, because we have finally refined the product offering to be something that’s extremely compelling and much more cost efficient to deliver and install. So, to radically streamline process from what has been done before and we will have more to say on that possibly next week. And then the Solar Roof tile, we are on Version 3 of the design. That necessarily takes a while to scale up because we have to be confident that the Solar Roof is going to last on the order of 30 years and because the warranty is sort of 20, 25 years and so the rate at which you can iterate on Solar Roof is necessarily slowed down by [indiscernible] which you can do accelerate aging on the roof and we want the installation process to be simple and easy, which is actually the Tesla Buffalo factory a few weeks ago and I was pretty impressed with the team and we are looking forward to scaling that up significantly through the balance of this year and next.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. The next question comes from Jeffrey, when and where will the Tesla semi production begin?
Jerome Guillen:
This is Jerome. Next year we will start production. We are very happy with driving the trucks extensively with I think so far quite amazing success, yes.
Elon Musk:
The prototypes are working amazingly well.
Jerome Guillen:
Yes, very well. We just used them all the time. We load them to maximum weight and continue to make improvements.
Elon Musk:
So, we have even used them to deliver some Model 3s.
Jerome Guillen:
Yes, that was fun. So, yes, we will start production next year. The location was not yet set, but it’s pretty clear that we make all the batteries and driving it in Reno.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much.
Elon Musk:
Sparks technically.
Jerome Guillen:
Sparks, yes. Northern Nevada.
Elon Musk:
Yes, Northern Nevada.
Martin Viecha:
And perhaps the last question from retail, how soon should current owners that purchase FSD, get the new FSD computer?
Elon Musk:
I think from features and functionality standpoint, I think there is no point getting the FSD upgrade if you don’t really have it in the car for probably about 2 or 3 months. That’s when we will start releasing features that are materially different from the feature set available on the Version 2 hardware. So, just no need to rush to the – get your computer replaced. It’s like 2 to 3 months before it becomes relevant and then it will obviously increase rapidly from then. One other comment I will make in case nobody asked this exclusive especially. For Model Y production, we are right now trying to decide whether Model Y vehicle production should be in California or Nevada and we expect to make a final decision on that very soon. But in the meantime, we have ordered all of the tooling and equipment required for Model Y. So, we don’t expect this in anyway to delay production of Model Y, but it’s hardly a very close call between Nevada and California as to whether we do the Model Y at Giga or at Fremont, but those are the two options and we will hopefully be able to make the decision in the next few weeks.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Sherry, we can go to analyst questions in the question queue.
Operator:
Thank you. Our first question comes from Ryan Brinkman with JPMorgan.
Ryan Brinkman:
Hi, thanks for taking my questions. Your guidance for 90,000 to 100,000 2Q deliveries when combined with the full year outlook, it suggests somewhere between 35% and 45% sequential growth from the first half to the second. Can you talk about what is giving you the confidence to project that growth and in particular what the order book or reservation list maybe telling you?
Elon Musk:
Yes. We do see strong demand for vehicles, both S, X and 3. The standard range plus Model 3 with autopilot included at $39,500 is just an incredibly compelling vehicle and affordable to probably something on the order like the top 40% income earners in the U.S. and Europe. So, it’s – I think we will see a lot of interest and demand in that. We are. And then with the upgraded S and X, I think a lot of people were kind of anticipating that there would be an S, X upgrade and this really is kind of a game-changer of an upgrade. So, I think we are seeing an uptick in demand and we expect to see that to be quite significant. And we are also out of the seasonality of Q1 with few people just generally don’t like buying cars in winter and we are getting past the overhang of that tax credit cliff, which for us ended in the U.S. on December 31. So, these were all very positive factors. We also have just a lot of markets where there is program or tapped into demand, especially for Model 3. So we will be really saying the right-hand drive Model 3 and expect to see significant demand in right-hand drive countries. Overall, I feel really good about the way things are headed.
Ryan Brinkman:
Okay, thanks. And then my follow up, sorry, as you said on previous call, you indicated that the Y would not be built in Fremont, because it was I think you said packed to the gills. I heard today that it is now a close call between California and Nevada. Is anticipated demand for Fremont built vehicles less than was previously thought or have you managed to maybe find more capacity in Fremont, for example, with the tent or some other production method?
Elon Musk:
Well, first of all, obviously on account of tents, like I mean, we like hardcore tents, so I am not like Cub Scout tents, which are fine, but this is actually – credit goes to Tesla team, because they actually look at how could we do this in Fremont if we had to and we feel like we can actually append building space to the – to the west side of the building and use a lot of internal space that’s currently used for warehousing in the Fremont factory. And so we believe it actually can be done with minimal disruption to add Model Y to Fremont.
Ryan Brinkman:
Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Pierre Ferragu with New Street Research.
Pierre Ferragu:
Hey, thanks for the call. My first question is really on the Model S and Model X and Elon, you said you are comfortable with the one you see – based on what you saw in April, do you think that the 25,000 units per quarter is the level of demand that is where you see the market coming back already or are we not there yet? And more specifically, in the U.S., the pull forward in Q4 probably hurt a lot of demand for S and X? Is that something that we still see the numbers today in recent weeks or is that behind us? And I have a follow-up on Q2.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, I think something like – returning to the 100,000 a year annualized demand for S and X is what we anticipate. That’s to the best to my knowledge. We don’t have a crystal ball, but that’s probably our best guess. And sorry, what was the other point?
Pierre Ferragu:
Yes. My question was about like the run-rate of demand you see at the moment, do you still feel like weak demand in the U.S. because of the pull forward in Q4 or do you think demand returned to normal already?
Elon Musk:
I think we expect demand to – we are seeing demand returning to normal in Q2. And it might be a little better than normal. I don’t have a crystal ball, it’s hard for me to say, but my impression right now is that demand is quite solid, quite strong, yes.
Pierre Ferragu:
And then my second question was briefly on...
Elon Musk:
Sorry, Zach would like to...
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. Well, just one thing I wanted to add to that, just on the production side of S and X. We did reduce production in Q1 as was noted. That was part of the retooling that we put in place to get the longer range vehicle out with the improved suspension and we are in the process of increasing production backup over the course of Q2. So just for the pervasive expectations, we will exit Q2 at a higher production rate than we did in Q1 on S and X and then return back to a more normal volume in Q3. It’s already increasing.
Pierre Ferragu:
And my follow-up was really on Q2 like with 90,000 to 100,000 units you are getting back to fairly nice volumes and I am surprised you don’t – you just still expect a loss. So maybe if you could take us through where we will see in Q2 pain points compared to Q4 and Q3 where you had a profit for similar volumes? How much of the loss in 2Q will be one-off costs, how much is the price points coming down in the mix and how much is related to pricing and other things?
Elon Musk:
Sure. So quite a bit, but we think if we didn’t unwind or pulled the wave where we, yes, made cars in the first half of the quarter almost exclusively for Asia and Europe and in the second half almost exclusively for North America. And then actually even that is subdivided depending upon whether it’s West Coast or East Coast, then we could deliver more cars. But we think it is important to unwind this wave, because it ends up being sort of optimizing for one quarter, but really adding a lot of cost and difficulty and not just – not being a good expense for customers and pretty aggressive efforts from Tesla team. So if we have to fully optimize for profitability in Q2, I think we can do it, but then we would be unable to unwind this crazy wave of deliveries and it also helps our working capital within the quarter to not have the wave. And then, Zach, do you want to talk about some of the other items?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes. No, I think you summarized it well, Elon. Two other things that I would add. One is we did make pricing adjustments to our products in Q1, which puts pressure on margin. And so that’s part of what we will see in Q2. The teams are working extremely hard and making terrific progress on improving the cost efficiency of the business without sacrificing growth and that in combination with the efficiencies from unwinding the wave, is where we feel we will be comfortable returning to a place of profitability in Q3 once all of those pieces are in place.
Pierre Ferragu:
Thank you.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you very much. Let’s go to the next question.
Operator:
Our next question is from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley.
Adam Jonas:
Thanks. First question, Elon, a couple of days ago, I asked you how safe is the Autopilot technology and you said something like twice as safe as normal driving, but you seem to be in a really unique position to really collect exobytes of data, you could potentially be externally validated much more rigorously provided the regulatory body or insurance institute to just show how much safer Autopilot is. When could we expect to see Tesla do that, that type of validation that investors could also get a sense of? It seems really, really important for adoption. Thanks. And I have a follow up.
Elon Musk:
I think we are just going to continue to report the absolute numbers. I think a point of detail just give those of you our bytes of Tesla that maybe sort of like data mine the situation and then try to turn it positive into negative. So we are just going to keep reporting report. We do give some more detailed information to insurance companies to help with rates. And obviously as we launch our own insurance product next month, we will certainly incorporate that information into the insurance rates. So, we essentially have a substantial price and sort of arbitrage or information arbitrage opportunity where we have direct knowledge of the risk profile of customers and based on the car and then if they want to buy Tesla insurance, they would have to agree to not drive the car in a crazy way. Or they can, but then their insurance rates are higher. So we are just going to keep reporting the numbers at a broad stroke level, which I think is really what matters.
Adam Jonas:
Okay, I understand it.
Elon Musk:
That’s the safety.
Adam Jonas:
Okay. And just as a follow-up, Elon and you kind of alluded a little bit, there is just so much drama around Tesla’s share price and quarterly results. From the outside at least, it looks like a huge distraction. And at the same time, there is so much alternative capital and large amounts of strategic capital that is incrementally deployed in domains where Tesla has real leadership. So how important is it for Tesla to be a publicly traded company, Elon?
Elon Musk:
Well, mate, I don’t want to surprise you, but I would prefer we were private, but unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed, so...
Adam Jonas:
But is it important? I mean, you think the company’s value is maximized being public? Is there just only so much you can do and you just got to play the hand you’re dealt?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think this feels like the sort of price of the stock is being set in kind of a manic-depressive way. And I think Warren Buffett’s analogy is just like perhaps being a publicly traded company is like having someone stand at the edge of your home and then just randomly yell different prices for your house every day. It’s still the same house.
Adam Jonas:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
So, it’s a bit of a distraction at times, but I’m not sure what to do about it.
Adam Jonas:
Okay understood. Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Maynard Um with Macquarie.
Maynard Um:
Hi thanks. In the update letter, you talked about supplier limitations impacting production. Can you just talk about what that was and how long you think that might continue to impact you? And then I have a follow up.
Elon Musk:
In Q2, we don’t we think we have two supplier interruptions, at least the significant ones that we’re aware of.
Maynard Um:
Okay. And I guess there was some concern out there that Model 3 was cannibalizing S and X despite them being all different vehicle classes, and it doesn’t sound like you’re saying that at all, but I was just wondering if you had any evidence that proves, disproves this? Any thoughts there would be helpful.
Elon Musk:
No, they’re reducing through different market segments. Yes.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And also, not only 3.5% of our trade-ins for Model 3 are coming from Model S. So, it’s from all the Model 3 trade-ins, Model S accounts for a super, super tiny portion.
Elon Musk:
Yes, for sure. People Model S just want to trade it in for another Model S or maybe an X.
Martin Viecha:
Okay let’s go to the next question please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Dan Galves from Wolfe Research.
Dan Galves:
Hi thanks everybody. A couple of questions. One, you mentioned a $50,000 ASP for North America Model 3s, can you give us a little bit more detail on kind of is that a number like since the February 28 price adjustments? Is that what you’re, kind of seeing as order flow? I’m sorry ASP is kind of the current order flow since those price adjustments?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, this is Zach. I mean, what we saw on February 28 when we launched the standard range, the standard range class variances, is that there’s pent-up demand for those products that released very quickly after it was announced. And then as more time has passed and order rates have stabilized, it’s starting the average ASP has actually been increasing each week ever since as the order rates stabilizes. And just under $50,000 ASP represents the most recent one, and we think it’s starting to stabilize there. And we’ll see where things trend in EMEA and China as well, but what we’re seeing in North America is that over 50% of our orders of the long-range variance in ASPs [indiscernible].
Dan Galves:
That’s really helpful. And the follow up is, I know order questions have been asked before, but let me put it this way. So, the I imagine that S and X orders need to have a couple of days to pick up after the upgrades. But on Model 3, whatever your assumption is within the 90,000 to 100,000 Q2 deliveries, whatever that assumption is for Model 3, does your current order flow support that? Or do you need something kind of positive to happen over the course of the quarter to get there?
Elon Musk:
I think we’ll I think we’ll be fine. Yes, I don’t think there any major thing required.
Dan Galves:
Okay. Thanks a lot, guys.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Toni Sacconaghi with Bernstein.
Toni Sacconaghi:
Yes, thank you. Elon, I was wondering if you could talk about this whole notion of raising capital for about the last year, you sort of shooed it as almost an evil thing and I think a lot of investors believe that the company might be better served and its growth aspirations if it did raise capital or had a stronger cash base. And given that you used up about $2 billion worth of cash in the quarter, aren’t you potentially trying to go through a very thin space while trying to grow quickly and be self-funding, which, quite frankly, may be unrealistic. So why not raise capital? And why do you view that as something that Tesla shouldn’t do? Or wouldn’t do? And I have a follow up, please.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I don’t think raising capital should be substitute for making the company operate more effectively. So that in that sense, I think it’s just, it’s important to have strong financial discipline of the company and just to make sure we don’t have extraneous expenses and we’re just being frugal with capital. If we keep raising capital every time, then it just takes we now have the forcing function improving the functional operation of the business. So, I think it is healthy to be on a Spartan diet for a while. At this point, I do think there are it is similar to raising capital. That’s a but this is sort of probably about the right timing, but yes.
Toni Sacconaghi:
So, does that mean that investors should expect the capital raise in the near to medium term? And I hear you on the force and constraint, but I mean growth does eat cash especially in a capital-intensive business. If you really do believe you have a first mover advantage, why wouldn’t you want to push it as quickly as possible even if it meant raising capital in the short term.
Elon Musk:
Yes. First of all, I’ll just say that I don’t think capital has been constrained on our growth thus far and the type of those fund in fact, if there was a final constraint on growth would’ve faced capital before now. But I think it is very important as company scales to make sure we are on a solid foundation and that we’re we have the appropriate financial discipline throughout the company and are spending money very efficiently. At this point, I think we are doing that. There’s more work to do, and Tesla today is far more efficient operating organization than it was a year ago. We’ve made dramatic improvements across the board. And so, I think there’s merit to the idea of raising capital at this point.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Just to add to that, the journey we’ve been on for the last 12 to 18 months on being more efficient and how we spend money has really changed the full trends of the company. It enabled us to accelerate a number of cost reductions on the COGS side of our products and then make improvements in operating expenses as well. And then as we look forward to capital investments for Giga Shanghai and Model Y and ultimately our European facility, our CapEx capacity has come down significantly through the work of the team here. So, I think it has been a very productive journey for us.
Elon Musk:
And technically, we did raise some big capital in China for the Shanghai Giga on the order of $500 million. So that we want to make sure that we don’t have to grow on level capital stuff under the Shanghai factory.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Now let’s go to the next question please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Alex Potter with Piper Jaffray.
Alex Potter:
Hi guys, I was wondering when you say obviously the logistical challenges were a headwind in the quarter. You talked about trying to regionally balance your deliveries going forward. Is that basically saying that people in Europe and China are just going to need to wait longer to take their deliveries and you’re going to try to emphasize more in North America in order to...
Elon Musk:
No, they would actually receive their cars sooner. It just means that instead of building cars in batches, where, say, the first half of the quarter is just dedicated to China, Europe cars, and the second half is dedicated to North American cars that we blend vehicle production for customers throughout the world, throughout the quarter. And that this [indiscernible] we don’t want a situation again like quite like we had in Q1 where essentially all the cars were arriving at customers worldwide at the same time. We literally delivered half of the entire quarter’s deliveries were in the final 10 days of Q1. That’s insane. So, I think we need to unwind that. I suppose it’s not a great customer experience because we’re shorthanded and then we have to redeploy like fuel from that are working in sales, HR, legal, engineering, everyone just to deliver cars. And then we then they can do their regular jobs. So, it just makes sense to just plan the production according to demand throughout the quarter.
Alex Potter:
Okay. That makes sense. Then the second question, I guess on go to market, there were some period of time there where the company was focused on closing storefronts. A fair amount of noise made around that. And then it, look like some of the commentary was hedging that strategy. I was just wondering if there’s any update there. If you have that, that would be helpful. Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Sure. I think Tesla just sort of I didn’t handle messaging of that well. I mean, that’s amplified by statement taking to an extreme where there was a misunderstanding. We certainly will continue to have stores, and we will continue to add stores provided they are in locations where there is high foot traffic and that are in our target market. So, we actually will continue to add stores in locations are no-brainers. We will close stores in locations where they are incredibly hard to find and the foot traffic of potential buyers is very low such that it does not support the cost of the store and the people in it. So, I think it’s just common sense. And then all sales online just, means that even if you go into a store, you we would guide you to order the car on your phone. So, source essentially like there like information centers, place you can get a test drive and buy some Tesla merchandise, that kind of thing. But all sales online, doesn’t mean all stores are closed. Just means when you buy a car, you always do it on your phone in the store or at home or anywhere. Orders online doesn’t, meant all stores are closing. That’s not what it’s meant.
Alex Potter:
Okay very good. Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Philippe Houchois with Jefferies.
Philippe Houchois:
Hi yes, thank you for taking the questions. I’m just wondering if you could comment on the agreement you seem to have reached with FCA on the possibility of selling your CO2 credits to them in Europe and what that means to your potential cash inflow. When that might start occurring? And if there is any chance any of those things are in your Q1 cash position?
Elon Musk:
I think it’s a confidential deal with FCA so we and we agreed with FCA not to comment on it publicly so we must abide by that.
Philippe Houchois:
And can I ask you a question of coming back to what Adam was saying about the drama that surrounds your unfortunately, why don’t you reduce some of it by disclosing on a monthly basis your deliveries and also maybe disclosing early your greenhouse revenue instead of just reserves so we get right away a better view on some of these details that kind of move the stock.
Elon Musk:
I think that would actually be counterproductive because people read too much into what occurred in a month. I mean, even at a quarterly basis, things can be lumpy. And so the more granularity that’s provided on a monthly level, the few would reach all sorts of conclusions that doesn’t makes sense. It’s like literally sales to a particular country, say, overseas are affected by when the ship arrives. And so, if the ship arrives on the 31st of the month or the first of the next month, this will make it look like something dramatic has happened. But actually, the ship was just a day late. So, people read that would increase the drama, not decrease it.
Zachary Kirkhorn:
And we’re filling the ship 100% [indiscernible].
Elon Musk:
Filling the ship 100% so it’s like it just ends up being lumpy. So, like if you managed if you’ve calculated like GDP of a country to offset the U.S., GDP on Sunday is extremely low, but GDP on a Monday is extremely high. It does not mean nothing has really changed.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from David Tambourino with Goldman Sachs.
David Tambourino:
Great. Thanks for taking our questions. First one, on customer deposits, it looks like it’s essentially flat to maybe slightly down. I understand it’s probably some timing with deliveries that could have helped it towards the end of the quarter. But we would have thought it would have increased given the Model Y [indiscernible]. So, our question is what was the initial order intake for the Model Y? And just coming through combing some of your comment earlier, what daily order rate are you seeing right now for the rest of your products?
Elon Musk:
I think we don’t want to comment on the granularity of deposits. Again, people read too much into this. We’re not playing of the Model Y because we’re just not in production so you can’t really read anything into Model Y orders at this point.
David Tambourino:
Okay. Well, then my second question would just be if you anticipate a further price adjustment the next level view credit phasing out July 1?
Elon Musk:
We don’t comment on future price changes unless you see it publicly.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let’s go to the next question please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer.
Colin Rusch:
Yes, could you comment on whether you’ll be better constrained at 100,000 vehicles a quarter in 2Q?
Elon Musk:
Self-constrained you mean? We don’t feel constrained at 400,000.
Colin Rusch:
And then as you look at the Maxwell Technology integration, post close, how quickly do you think you’ll be able to integrate that technology into the battery production? And could you comment on potential for chemistry and form factor changes as you get it integrated?
Elon Musk:
I mean, you’re really asking some pretty super secret sauce questions here. I think yes, we’ll have I think we’ll probably have an Investor Day like an Autonomy Day maybe later this year or early next just to go over the cell and battery technology and future strategy. And think that will be very informative but we do recognize the criticality of this.
Colin Rusch:
Okay thank you so much guys.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Joseph Spak with RBC Capital Markets.
Joseph Spak:
First question is really just a clarification on in the outlook of 25% non-GAAP gross margin that you’re targeting. Is that over the mid-term or is that something you expect to hit by the end of this year? And if so, what gets S and X back higher given the price cuts?
Zachary Kirkhorn:
Yes, this is Zach here, that’s [indiscernible] so we’re targeting for the end of the year, although internally, we are working towards S and X non-GAAP gross margin achieving that sooner. The biggest lever there is actually two components. One is, as we increase volume back on our S and X production line, there’s just a natural benefit there from the fixed cost absorption which will help us. But we also have a number of cost reduction projects in place that we’re executing on over the course of the year. And then the third piece which applies to S and X, but also Model 3, we’re seeing an increased take rate on our full Self-Driving offering. And there are, revenue associated with that given that the full suite of functionality is not there. And as that option becomes, approaches we roll out more, we will be able to apply more revenue on that. So all of these things together within our internal gives us [indiscernible].
Elon Musk:
Yes, I should mention that the upgraded powertrain for S and X was actually launched in a significant cost down because we essentially took the high volume, we’re driving units of the Model 3 which is extremely efficient magnet motor and product electronics and we made a version for that for the contract unit of S and X. And so, we’re actually able to get cost reduction while improving range and [indiscernible] of the car. That’s just 1 example.
Joseph Spak:
Okay. The second question is just looking at the 10-K, you’ve notice $4.9 billion purchase obligation, which I think is primarily related to Panasonic Giga 1. And then Elon, in some of your communication, you’ve indicated production constraints. I guess the question is, does that $4.9 billion correlate to reaching that 35 gigawatt hour rate? And if you can’t hit that because of production constraints, does that adjust?
Unidentified Company Speaker:
This is [indiscernible]. So, the purchase obligation in the 10-K is basically for the entire contract which we have for Panasonic. It’s not something that we need to hit. I mean, make the purchases tomorrow. So this is going to take a couple of years.
Joseph Spak:
Okay.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Colin Langan with UBS.
Colin Langan:
Great thanks for taking my question I mean, it sounds like from the tone of the call that you don’t see that there’s a demand issue for some of the product, but margins seem to be under pressure and typically automakers stop pricing when there is a demand issue. So, what is the logic of the price cuts during the quarter?
Elon Musk:
I mean, our goal, as we’ve been very clear about from the beginning of the company, is to make our cars as affordable as possible. And we thought it was important to offer the $35,000 Model 3 and then to create a sort of bundled package for the Model 3 with the increased range because we think actually that difference between 220 and 240 is quite important more people realizing in range and posher interior and Autopilot. So, we thought a product that’s really just knows the sweet spot, which I think the $39,500 Model 3 is just really nail the sweet spot and raising consumer response accordingly. You can tell by the $35,000 version of the Model 3 that, of course, didn’t have Autopilot and has a software introspection, that kind of thing. It’s like slightly more inconvenience to buy just have to make a phone call or visit a store. So, it’s just not like you have to complete the obstacle course or something. But we see very few people actually take us up on that $35,000 offer, but it’s there and will remain there.
Colin Langan:
As a follow up, you’re still targeting the China facility ramp by the end of the year. Are you still confident in the 3,000 per week? And do you have a battery supplier yet that’s getting pretty close to the point?
Elon Musk:
Yes, the Shanghai Gigafactory progress is going incredibly well. Tesla the execution of our team underground there. I get daily e-mails with Tesla picture from one day to next from Tom who leads the Gigafactory program. And so, we’re obviously discussing or getting updates 7 days a week. So, I mean, I’m in that Gigafactory e-mail. So, in terms of execution, of course, the production grows as fast as the [indiscernible] item. That’s very important to bear in mind. So, we have 99% of things in good shape can make the car. So, with respect to that said, it looks like we’ll reach volume production at the end of this year with, let’s say, more than 1,000 cars a week, maybe 2,000 from Shanghai Giga at the end of this year. That’s what it looks like to be the case right now. If it’s not at the end, it will be shortly thereafter. And then we expect to have multiple sales flyers for Shanghai Giga.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much everyone. Unfortunately, this is all the time we have for our Q&A today. Appreciate all of your questions, and we look forward to talking to you in the next quarter.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in today’s conference. This concludes the program. You may all disconnect, and have a wonderful day.
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla, Inc. Q4 2018 Financial Results and Q&A Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session, and instructions will follow at that time. [Operator Instructions] As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would like to introduce your host for today's call, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations. Mr. Viecha, you may begin.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Sherry, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's fourth quarter 2018 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, J.B. Straubel, Deepak Ahuja and a number of other executives. Our Q4 results were announced at about 1 p.m. Pacific Time in the update letter we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thanks, Martin. Last year was definitely the most challenging year in Tesla history, but also the most successful. Thanks to the incredible work of the Tesla team, Model 3 became the best-selling premium vehicle in the U.S. for 2018. And in fact, when considering battery electric vehicles, Tesla achieved an 80% market share of U.S. sales in the last year. I think this point is perhaps not well appreciated. All other electric vehicles combined were 20% of sales in the U.S. in last year. So I think that's not so bad. We also delivered - also made vehicles last year as we did in all prior years combined, which is tremendous achievement by the Tesla team. The - if you track Tesla vehicle production year-over-year, cumulative sales and deliveries year-over-year, it is about the cleanest exponential I've ever seen. We've basically almost doubled our fleet every year. Every year, we make as many cars as we did in all prior years. So this is a very unusual thing to see for - especially for a large complex manufactured object, I think maybe the fastest that a complex manufactured object like a car has grown in history or at least I'm not aware of anything that is faster. Martin, are you…?
Martin Viecha:
I'm not sure. I think Model T was a little bit slower, but I'm not 100% sure.
Elon Musk:
Okay. And we expect that exponential to continue. So with the deliveries this year being - even in the face of - if there's a global recession - even if there's a global recession, we're expecting deliveries this year to be about 50% higher than last year. And this - it could be a lot more than that. But even with tough economic times, to see 50% growth is pretty nutty. For Q4, we achieved GAAP profitability, the second quarter for the first time in the company history, and we increased our cash on hand by more than $700 million, even after paying debt [in EMEA] [ph] with the total of $3.7 billion of cash. This means we have enough cash to settle our convertible bond that will mature in March. In addition, our operating margin remains strong at 5.7%. Operating margins in the fourth quarter are usually lower in the automotive industry, but this was not the case with Tesla. 2019 is going to be an amazing year for Tesla. As I mentioned, we are expecting to increase sales by 50%. Perhaps could be a lot more than 50%, but I think 50% is a very reasonable number. But that's crazy growth for the automotive industry. I want to note that one of our major priorities this quarter is improving service operations. So really, from my standpoint, when I think about what my priorities are this quarter, it's improving service in North America. That's number one. And I think we have very exciting [indiscernible] we're going to roll out with the [indiscernible]. We're going to get cars to China and Europe and make sure that we have good logistics for the whole delivery process, from factory gate to the customer. That's obviously pretty far from California to get to Europe and China and make it to - get the car to customers. So we're working every aspect of that logistics chain, and I think we've - I think it's going to be good. I'd say at this point, I'm optimistic about being profitable in Q1. Not by a lot, but I'm optimistic about being profitable in Q1 and for all quarters going forward. So let's see, we've opened 27 new store and service locations, bringing out our total locations worldwide to 378. And we increased our Mobile Service fleet to 411 vehicles. Mobile Service fleet is something we can scale up very rapidly, because we don't need bricks and mortar, we can get more vehicles, hire people and deploy rapidly. It also actually results from higher customer satisfaction, because we can actually send one of our service vans to your work or home and fix the car without you having to bring it into the service center or do any paperwork or anything like that. It's really seamless and invisible. The customers love it. And we're also increasing the functionality of the Tesla App for service, so that instead of having to make an appointment - to call and make an appointment, you just open your Tesla App, say you want to make a service appointment, and it was the top 10 most frequently requested service items, and you can - with a couple of taps, you've made yourself an appointment. And we're going to make it easier for the car to be picked up and dropped off as well. So if you want - if you prefer not coming to the service center at all, you can just request that the car be picked up and delivered. That's something that we'll be - so that's already - we're going to roll it out and have a big improvement to customer satisfaction. It rolled out two or three weeks ago. But the next thing we're going to add is, if a car detects something wrong, like a flat tire or a drive unit failure, that before the car has even come to a halt, there is a tow truck and a service loader on the way. The car has already notified Tesla emergency services, and a service loader, a tow truck, are on their way before your car has even come to a stop. I think this will be immense in improving customer happiness. [Indiscernible] call it and you have to tap the center screen to cancel it. So you can cancel it if you want. We just have to - it's like automatically going to happen. You just press cancel. We're also improving parts distribution. So I think we made a strategic error in the past about not having service parts located at our service centers. We had them in parts distribution warehouses, which basically meant it was impossible to have a fast turnaround on servicing a car, because the car would come in, then the parts will be requested, they come to the service center, this would basically - even if they're very simple, repair could take days. So we're going to be able to stock in all common parts at the service centers, so that it's possible to - - get your car serviced in 20 minutes or 15 minutes, even if it's a simple matter. I mean, it should be like eight minutes or whatever, eight minutes. It should be like lightning fast. But in order to - we have to have the parts located at our service centers. Also, it's going to make sense for our service centers to do basic body work or essentially to replace a front or rear fascia, it makes sense to just prestock the front and rear fascia in the common colors. So unless you have an unusual color, we can literally replace your fascia in 15, 20 minutes, and this is not like, weeks at a body shop stuff. In terms of the new products, with Model Y, we've completed ensuring of ensign of Model Y, and the parts are - [indiscernible] for production Model Y. Three quarters of the Model Y is common with the Model 3, so it's a much lower CapEx per vehicle than Model 3. And the risk is also quite low. This is in contrast to Model S versus Model X where the theory was - I think Model X, we just - it's sort of Model X to be like the sort of the Fabergé egg of cars. It's an incredible vehicle and probably one - probably nothing like it will ever be made again, and maybe it shouldn't. But it is a work of art. It's a special work of art. But the commonality with the Model S is limited. It was only about maybe 30% in common with the Model S, whereas Model Y is, I think, 76% was what it got in common with the Model 3. And we're most likely going to put Model Y production right next to - in fact, it's part of our main Gigafactory in Nevada. So it will just be right there. Batteries and powertrains will come out and go straight into the vehicle. So that also reduces our risk of execution and reduces the cost of having to transfer parts from California to Nevada. It's not a for sure thing, but it's quite likely, and it's our default plan. I would expect Model Y will probably be - the [indiscernible] Model Y will be maybe 50% higher than Model 3, could be even double. The - as I understand it, the midsized SUV segment is the - worldwide is the most popular type of vehicle. So we'll probably see a higher volume of Y than 3. And earlier this month, we saw the construction of our Gigafactory in Shanghai, and by the end of this year, we expect to be producing Model 3s using a complete vehicle production line. That's body paint, final assembly, general assembly and module production. So it basically would be - this will be extremely fast. I get like daily updates of progress of the Shanghai Gigafactory, and those factories are going to go up like lightning. So we do feel quite confident at this point, at least for the factories that are in our control, that we can achieve volume production in Shanghai by the end of the year. And that should allow us to get to the 10,000 vehicles a week rate or very close to it by the end of the year. And yes, I think that's it.
Martin Viecha:
Okay, great. So we're going to take the first questions from our retail investors who have been submitting their questions on say.com. So the question that has been submitted has been about service, which I think you already spoke at length about. So let's go to the second question. The second question would be, how are you feeling about demand right now across the product line? Is 500,000 to 700,000 units at 42,000 ASP still a realistic annual target for Model 3, even considering Model Y and its impact on demand? And do you continue to see S and X demand of 100,000 annually?
Elon Musk:
I mean, my best guess, this is just a guess, my best guess for demand of Model 3 worldwide is something - in a strong economy, it's something on the order of 700,000 or 800,000 units a year. That's my best guess for demand of Model 3 in a strong economy. If the economy goes into a recession, then I think that could be something under 40% less. But I think even in a recession, worldwide demand is still something in the order of 500,000 for Model 3. For S and X, we did eliminate the 75 [indiscernible] of S and X and product model differentiation relative to 3 and then Y that's coming out. I think we could see a slight decline in total vehicles, but I think the net cash flow from S and X is likely to be very similar. So probably no major change in net cash flow for S and X.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. The next question from Alex is, can you please share an update on full self-driving and Tesla Network development? When will customers start to see full self-driving features? What's the best case time line for a Tesla Network to go live?
Elon Musk:
Sure. We have - we already have full self-driving capability on highway. So from highway on ramp to highway exit, including passing cars and going from one highway interchange to another, full self-driving capability is there. In a few weeks, we'll be pushing update that will allow the option of removing stock confirmed in markets where regulators approve it, which we believe that will be the case in the U.S., for example. And over time, we think probably all regulators will approve it. But we kept talking from there just to make sure that we took care of like - of any strange corner cases. And it's really quite sublime if you have stock confirm of and like the car goes from highway on ramp, passes slower cars, change - takes an interchange and then takes the exit and then comes to a stop after the exit. So it's really quite profound to have that experience. Then the next part of full self-driving will really be to - is traffic lights. It's hard. So stop streets are pretty easy because you can essentially geocode those and is recognized at all times. Traffic lights and intersections will be the next really tricky one. And then navigating complex parking lots and like - sort of like if you're underground in a mall parking lot with a lot of traffic and pedestrians and it's on multiple levels, that kind of thing is what gets tricky. With the release of enhanced or advanced Summon, you'll see the first indications of the car being able to navigate complex parking lots, and that's also coming up fairly soon, probably next month. And in development mode, the car does all the things that I just mentioned in development mode. It recognizes traffic lights and stop signs and basically has all the functionality in development mode. It's really just a question of getting your reliability of recognizing traffic lights to several names. So I guess like, I don't know, 98% good right now, but we need it to be like 99.999%, really extremely reliable. So - and the capability will be there for - when will we think it's safe for full self-driving? It's probably towards the end of this year, and then it's up to regulators to decide when they want to approve that.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let's go to the next question, which is, if and when will Tesla switch Model S and X to 2170 battery cells? What percent range improvement do you expect?
Elon Musk:
We have no plans to switch S and X to 2170 and can't comment on huge product developments.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. So maybe we'll take the last question from retail investors, which was, where will Tesla Semi and Model Y be produced? Can you share a time line on expected production ramp of these products?
Elon Musk:
As I mentioned earlier, the Model Y, we think, most likely will be produced at Gigafactory, but that's - unless we encounter some obstacle - that's the default plan that we're proceeding towards. And it's fast, low risk and also low CapEx. In terms of the - I mean, probably there's like initial production of Model Y, very low volume, probably next year. But then it always takes time to ramp up any production system, and that's difficult to predict the shape of that S-curve. So we feel confident in saying there will be production volume of Model Y by the end of next year, but in between beginning of next year with low volume, it always starts with very low growth exponentially - from beginning of last year to end of next year, it's difficult to break that ramp. So that's our expectation for Y. For Semi, we're - I don't know if you want to comment on that, Jerome.
Jerome Guillen:
I want to start next year as well.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Jerome Guillen:
But the first units will be - this is Jerome. Well, first units will be for our own usage. So depends how many trucks we'll use for our own usage to move the parts and the vehicle in different location, and then we'll start delivering to outside customers.
Elon Musk:
Yes, that's good. And then the Tesla pickup truck, we might be ready to unveil that this summer. It will be something quite unique, unlike anything else.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Fantastic. So operator, we can start taking questions from participants on the call.
Operator:
Thank you [Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Ryan Brinkman with JPMorgan.
Ryan Brinkman:
Thanks for taking my question. I think - the amount that you've spent on lands for Gigafactory Shanghai in the classification operating cash flows, is there any guidance you can provide us in terms of how to think about CapEx for this facility going forward? And can you discuss the source of funds for the project? I think you've spoken in the past about the potential to raise that locally in China. Is that still your thinking? And what kind of terms might you be able to raise that capital?
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes, Deepak here. You're right. The purchase of the land is a 50-year lease with the government of China. So it's not CapEx, but it's operating lease, that shows up as cash flow from operations. However, the CapEx that we will invest is our equipment, and we fully own it. So that will show up as capital expenditures. The plan, as we have indicated in the letter, is still to get funding for majority of that capital spending from local China banks. And we expect pretty attractive rates based on the dialogue we've had. And there's a lot of interest. And we hope to finalize that and then share the details at that point.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, as a ballpark figure, probably it's something about - something in the order of $0.5 billion in CapEx to get to the 3,000 vehicle rates in Shanghai, ballpark figure. And as Deepak was saying, [indiscernible] very competitive debt financing in China, really extremely compelling interest rates, and we do not expect that to be a capital drain on the company.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes. These are the biggest banks in the world, and for them, $500 million is not a large amount of money on the scheme of things.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Gene Munster with Loup Ventures.
Elon Musk:
Sorry perhaps - if you're in the automotive industry you’ll understand how significant this is but maybe it's not as obvious to everyone is Tesla has the first wholly owned manufacturing facility in China for any - of any automotive company. So this is profound, and we're very appreciative of the Chinese government allowing us to do this. I think it is symbolic of [indiscernible] open the market. And if I - and you know, it [indiscernible], so like a note of appreciation for the Chinese government in allowing us to do that. It's a very significant thing.
Gene Munster:
Question I have is related to Waymo and the autonomous driving opportunity. Morgan Stanley recently valued Waymo at $175 billion. And my question is, what do they have that you don't have? And separately - so what do they have that you don't have? And then separately, how important is the timing in the Tesla story longer term? Is this nice to have? Is it really about EVs and renewable energy? Or is the autonomy kind of one of the foundational parts of the story longer term?
Elon Musk:
[Indiscernible] goodness of Tesla, yes, so like the why of Tesla, the relevance, what's the point of Tesla, comes down to two things
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question...
Martin Viecha:
Sorry, do you have a follow-up question? Okay, no follow-up question. Okay. Let's go to the next participant.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question is from Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer.
Colin Rusch:
Thanks so much. Can you talk a little bit about the geographic dispersion for the guidance for 2019, where you're expecting the Model 3s to sell through as well as the other models?
Elon Musk:
Well, I think we did, actually. Yes, it's clear in our letter.
Deepak Ahuja:
We indicated in Q1, we will start delivering Model 3s in Europe and China. And we also shared a chart showing the potential market size for midsized premium sedans in North America, Europe and Asia, suggesting those markets could be even bigger. So I think that gives a good sense of where we'll be. And we'll launch the right-hand drive version at some point to go to the other markets.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Maybe in the order of 350,000 to 500,000 Model 3s, something like that this year.
Colin Rusch:
Okay. And then just in terms of the cost reduction road map and rework post-factory, can you talk a little bit about your expectation for reducing that in the next couple of quarters and what the order of magnitude is on that in your model internally?
Elon Musk:
Jerome, do you want to answer that?
Jerome Guillen:
This is Jerome. Well, our manufacturing is improving quarter-over-quarter. Actually, week-over-week, we take fewer hours, both here in Fremont or at the Gigafactory, to assemble the Model 3 and S and X as well. And then we track the quality very closely. We review that carefully with the engineers and the supply chain and the manufacturing team. And the quality in the field and the number of incidents is also improving week-over-week, every week. So there are fewer and fewer need for cars to be in service, yes. So we'll keep going. There's no end in sight. And we'll try to make sure that the car never breaks down.
Elon Musk:
Yes, I think there's like some confusion about rectification. Like I said - like - for us to drive the Model 3s that come off the line, all that happens is like some slight adjustment of drawer gaps and panel gaps and that kind of thing, and that's all that's done. There's nothing more than that.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Colin Langan with UBS.
Colin Langan:
Thanks for taking my question. Just a follow-up on the comments around you said about 700,000 to 800,000, you think, is the normal demand. I mean, any color on what price you're expecting that to be? Because I think there's a lot of chatter that demand is already weak in - of the midrange, at least, already in January. I don't know if that's true as well.
Elon Musk:
Yes. I mean, - there are multiple factors at play here. First of all, there's a lot of seasonality to automotive purchases. Most people do not buy a new car in the middle of a blizzard. So January and February tends to be seasonally low and then picks up significantly around the early to mid-March time frame. In the U.S., we obviously have a pull forward of demand from the tax credit. And yes, there's - so there's all those factors. But I feel very confident about Model 3 demand. The customer happiness level with the car is incredible and I think probably the highest of any car in the world right now, I think. And so you can tell like, basically, nobody wants to sell their car.
Colin Langan:
But the target price point is, I think, in the past, you mentioned mid-$40,000. Is that where we're thinking or a long-term range?
Elon Musk:
Yes, this is really just a guess. So it's not like I got some huge crystal ball or something. But at volume, I would expect, this is totally a guess, I want to be clear, probably an average of $42,000, probably at that volume level. I'm not certain on it.
Colin Langan:
And just as a follow-up. You commented that you expect China to be online by the end of the year, but there's a lot of articles that the battery supplier - you're looking at different battery suppliers. But, I mean, do you have a battery supplier? Because it seems kind of close to when production is supposed to start.
Elon Musk:
Well, there's really three things
Operator:
Our next question comes from Emmanuel Rosner with Deutsche Bank.
Emmanuel Rosner:
First, I wanted to ask you about the short-range Model 3. What are your latest thoughts in terms of timing of introduction? I think at some point, you had in mind to do it in the - maybe the first half of this year. And just to clarify, when you're sort of talking about the outlook for 2019, the number of deliveries up 50% and then the margin target for Model 3 to get to 25%, does that assume that you're introducing a lower range, the short-range Model 3 at some point during the year?
Elon Musk:
Well, you could call it the standard range, but it's maybe short by Tesla's standards, but it's long range by other manufacturers' standards. So - but yes, we expect to introduce the standard range Model 3 sometime - probably the middle of this year is a rough, rough guess. And we're working hard to improve our costs of production, our overhead costs, our fixed costs, just costs in general. I think this past year, while extremely difficult, has driven us to a high level of financial discipline. I think we're way smarter about how we spend money, and we're getting better with each passing week. Yes.
Emmanuel Rosner:
And so to be clear, the - you expect to reach at some point this year - or you're targeting at some point this year 25% gross margins on Model 3, and that's despite introducing the lower-end - or just the standard range Model 3. Is that correct?
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Emmanuel Rosner:
Okay. And, I guess, my follow-up would be on the demand side. So you're talking about 50% increase this year. You said a few times that it could be higher than this. I think you just mentioned in the previous question 350,000 to 500,000, if I understood well. So what is sort of like what drives the cautious outlook that's in your letter? Because it feels like it's the - it's just basically four times the fourth quarter run rate, which would imply sort of 50% for the full year but not really a lot of growth versus what you just accomplished. So, I guess, how do we think about the total demand for 2019, especially if you introduced this - the cheaper version?
Elon Musk:
Well, we need to bring the Shanghai factory online. I think that's the biggest driver for getting to 500K plus a year. Our car is just very expensive going into China. We've got import duties. We've got transport costs. We've got higher-cost labor here. And we've never been eligible for any of the EV tax credits. A lot of people sort of dependent on incentives. In fact, we are [indiscernible] EVs, we have the least access to incentives. It's pretty crazy because there's so many companies that - countries that have put price caps on the EV incentive, which affects Tesla. And in China, which is the biggest market for EVs, we've never had any subsidies or tax incentives for vehicles. So it's - it is eligible for that. But it sounds like that's going to be reducing in China in the coming years. But, really, bottom line is, we need the Shanghai factory to achieve that 10k rate and other cars be affordable. The demand for - the demand for Model 3 is insanely high. The inhibitor is affordability. It's just like people literally don't have the money to buy the car. It's got nothing to do with desire. They just don't have enough money in their bank account. If the car can be made more affordable, the demand is extraordinary.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Pierre Ferragu with New Street Research.
Pierre Ferragu:
So, Deepak, I was wondering, so as you get to 2019, we're all concerned about the potential recession, and I was wondering how you think about it and what you would tell us about what we should expect - how we should expect Tesla to react to recession in 2019. How do you manage your volume land? How do you manage your pricing? How do you present cash? How do you manage your CapEx if things turn south in 2019? And then I have a follow-up on gross margin for Jerome.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes, it's a very broad question, which is not really just for me to answer. But I think at the highest level, the way we are trying to be prepared for any kind of contingency here is to just continue focusing on cost. And the theme of our conversations here is, how do we reduce cost all the time? And how do we run our business with a very high level of financial discipline? And Elon alluded to that and so did Jerome - Jerome, I think. That - if we do that, we believe that even in some of the scenarios of lower volumes and pricing - tight pricing, we do have a good chance and a good shot of being profitable and generate free cash flow. So that's the best way to manage the business, be frugal.
Elon Musk:
Yes, I don't want to be a broken record about this, it's costs, costs, costs, because reducing our costs - by the way, while making improvements to Model 3, I want to emphasize, the product is getting better by slight degrees despite lower costs in hundreds of small ways. But you actually wouldn't notice explicitly, but they would appreciate subconsciously. And getting those costs down, variable costs and fixed costs, is what allows us to lower the price and be financially sustainable and achieve our mission of environmental sustainability. So we have to be absolute clear about this. There's no question.
Deepak Ahuja:
The other aspect of this, Elon, which we've been doing extremely well, is capital efficiency. We have dramatically cut back on capital expense, and we are spending it in a very efficient manner. We talked about it in the letter on Model 3 and Gigafactory Shanghai. We talked about it for Model Y. There are just so many learnings that we are incorporating, and we just want to beat what we did with Model 3 and the kind of spending we had for the returns we got.
Elon Musk:
Absolutely. I mean, we're confident that our CapEx per unit of production for Shanghai factory and for Model Y will be less than half of what we did for Model 3. Internally, we think it might be a quarter but that's probably too good to believe, but it's definitely less than half.
Operator:
Our next question comes from David Tamberrino with Goldman Sachs.
David Tamberrino:
First thing I want to just understand is on what you're seeing from European orders and China orders so far. There are some numbers that get thrown around, but you guys are obviously taking a look at it. How is that order profile shaping up relative to what you saw in the U.S. with the launch of the 3?
Elon Musk:
I think it seems good. I mean, our share actually with Europe and China is, how do we get the cars made and on a boat as such that it reaches customers before end of quarter and we don't have a massive number of cars on the water. That's our biggest challenge. It's not demand. It's how do we get the cars there fast enough.
David Tamberrino:
So like orders above, I think I've seen like 20,000 order levels for Europe and single-digit thousands for China is better than that, Elon?
Elon Musk:
Yes, absolutely. The - I mean, we're not even really trying, I should point out. I guess it's - we - our factory is like, right now, only making cars for China and Europe. That's all it's doing for - with respect to Model 3. And our whole focus is, okay, how do we get those cars made, get them on a ship as fast as possible, get the ship as fast as possible to Zeebrugge in Belgium then get them over to Drammen in Norway and get those cars to customers as fast as possible. We get them to China as fast as possible. In China, we were also - yes, we don't what's going to happen with the trade negotiations. So that's very important to get those cars especially to China as soon as possible. We hope the trade negotiations go well, but it's not clear. But we need to get them there while there's sort of a de facto - sort of a truce on the tariff war. And the demand gen is really not one of the things we're thinking about.
David Tamberrino:
Okay. Then just lastly on this demand thread, customer deposit came in again over $100 million. Is it possible to give us an update? I know you don't think it's really a relevant number but I do want to know. Explain why on the reservation count, where you were 450,000, you started delivering. And I ask this because I think we're just all trying to understand how much incremental demand you think there is based on what you see at that lower price point if, say, there's over half of those people that are still waiting for that 75k base model to come out. That would be interesting, and I think that's what you're seeing but I just want to confirm that.
Elon Musk:
So Deepak, do you want to...
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes, I mean, I think reservations are not relevant for us. We are really focused on orders. Now we do have a large reservations backlog still, which tells us that a lot of customers are still waiting for those cars, but I don't think it's appropriate to share the reservations number.
Elon Musk:
Reservations are just like preorders. It's like here - like some video game come out and there's like a preorder number, then that's like - stops being important once you start shipping the game or product. So yes, as I said earlier, I think - my guess is demand is somewhere on the order - in a strong economy is on the order of 700,000 or 800,000 units a year for Model 3 and even in a recession is probably on the order of 0.5 million.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Daniel Ives with Wedbush Securities.
Daniel Ives:
So my question is around Europe. Obviously, with deliveries coming onboard in the first quarter, maybe what surprised you in terms of - your demand looks strong, but in terms of what you're seeing at the region, is it stronger than you expected in certain countries? What do you think is driving that? And maybe you can just talk about the opportunities and challenges in Europe especially from a delivery logistics perspective.
Elon Musk:
Well, like I said, we're thinking about demand almost zero right now. It's really getting the product there in time and not having a ton of cars on the water and in a quarter and then for China getting cars there before there's a potential rise in tariffs. That's really - put really at front of mind that cost reduction and then improving service in North America, yes.
Daniel Ives:
And just maybe a quick follow-up on - can you just talk about - when we look at the Gigafactory build-out in China and obviously how important that is, can you maybe just fast forward, let's say, 18, 24 months? I mean, how do you envision that as just a competitive advantage versus maybe some other automakers that will be trying to go in your tracks?
Elon Musk:
I think it will be quite a significant advantage, a really good - it's quite fundamental to the future of Tesla, and I expect to make several trips to China this year. And I'm working very closely with the team building the factory. I literally get daily updates. So it's a super big deal and we're only just talking about Phase 1 here. Phase 1 is about 10% of what we think the Gigafactory will ultimately be. So it's a major, major, major deal. And we're getting a lot of support from the Shanghai government, which we're very appreciative of, and the national government.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Toni Sacconaghi with Bernstein.
Toni Sacconaghi:
You've talked repeatedly about the need to drive down costs, which, in turn, drives the elasticity of demand for cars. And I'm wondering if you can talk about how much of a price differential between the $50,000 Model 3 and the $35,000 Model 3 is structural, meaning that powertrain costs for EVs are just structurally higher than they are for internal combustion engine cars. And where do you think that difference is today and when that is no longer a factor? So is - or maybe said another way, is the bigger driver in getting to lower costs and lower - and more affordability on the Model 3, is it really around the powertrain and getting that at parity? Or is it everything else about Tesla not being as efficient as other manufacturers that is causing the higher price right now? And have I follow-up, please.
Jerome Guillen:
It's both, it's both, the vehicle and both the powertrain. So I split my time half and half between the Gigafactory and here, and there is opportunities in both, yes.
Deepak Ahuja:
But I think the bigger point is that, yes, there is cost reduction opportunities out, but the bigger point is it's not that our cost is higher than a gas-powered or an internal combustion engine.
Martin Viecha:
I think what Toni meant is with the battery pack, as in battery pack as well as the powertrain together, are more expensive than an engine.
Elon Musk:
That's true.
Toni Sacconaghi:
And how big do you think that delta is today? And when it's - do you think of it as being kind of $10,000, $11,000 for that pack plus powertrain for an electric vehicle and maybe $5,000 or $6,000 for an internal combustion engine car? And is that sort of the order of magnitude? And where do you see those getting much more aligned just sort of given the lives of where you think cell and pack costs are going?
Elon Musk:
Well, the biggest part to bear in mind is because of electricity, it's quite a bit less than the cost of gasoline, especially in Europe or in California or China, basically almost everywhere except, say, the middle of the United States, where the cost of gasoline is very expensive and electricity is far cheaper. The - so that factors in to the cost of ownership pretty significantly. It's on - sort of going on the order of $50 to $100 a month depending upon how much somebody drives. So that's a very important thing to consider for an electric car versus a gasoline car. The - that said, in terms of initial cost of acquisition, I think it's probably - this is just off the top of my head, not a calculated number, probably on the order of 7k but trending towards 4k or 5k. It's off the top of my head.
Toni Sacconaghi:
Okay. And as you think about 2019, you talked about sort of scenarios for demand and how you plan to roll out the intermediate range and then ultimately the standard range. What is - if you do have to make a trade-off on volume or profitability during the course of the year, meaning to get the volume you need or you think you can deliver, you have to go to lower margins or vice versa, where's the trade-off? Is - are units produced most important to you? Or is delivering the 25% gross margin more important? So if you have a chance to deliver 450,000 or 500,000 cars but they'll be more standard editions and gross margins will end the year at 20%, is that - are you willing to make that trade-off?
Elon Musk:
My guess is it ends up being sort of about the 6.5 [does together] where if there's a given amount of free cash flow, you sort of decide - you decide to achieve that with a smaller production or smaller volume of cars or at a higher margin or large volume cars at a smaller margin. I think we're already towards the second. We're going to make more cars at a lower margin, but I think it's more or less a flat rate.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Maynard Um with Macquarie.
Maynard Um:
Can you just update us on where battery costs are now and where you anticipate they'll be by year-end? I'm just trying to gauge how much of a factor this is to lowering costs and sustaining profitability.
Elon Musk:
That's a highly proprietary number. We cannot give it out, but I'd like to tell you but no. We do think we have the best costs in the world. We're - to the best of our knowledge, our costs are lower than anyone else right now and they're improving.
Maynard Um:
And maybe talk about your expectations with the Panasonic-Toyota JV and how it might impact you. Was this something that you were made aware of?
Elon Musk:
I spoke directly with Tsuga-san about this, the Head of Panasonic, and he assured me this will have no impact on Tesla.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Dan Galves with Wolfe Research.
Dan Galves:
Do you plan to offer a U.S. lease product for Model 3 in the U.S.? When can we expect it? And can you talk about what percentage of S and X have historically been leased in the U.S.?
Elon Musk:
Well, we've been reluctant to introduce the leasing on Model 3 because of how - of its effect on GAAP financials. So it is worth noting that demand to date is with zero leasing. So obviously, leasing is a way to improve demand but it has - it makes our financials looks worse. So we're - we don't want to introduce that right away. I mean, we'll introduce it sometime later this year probably. What - I'm not sure the percentage of lease is for S and X right now.
Deepak Ahuja:
It's around 20%, low 20s, and it stayed stable at that level for many, many quarters, which is - it seems like the natural demand because we don't do [some invention or] artificially bump up.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. Our leases are legit. The - it usually expects a small business. Tax write-off is important for the - for leasing. So...
Dan Galves:
Okay. And then I have just, like, two quick housekeeping questions. One, is there a restructuring charge that you expect in the first quarter? How much is it? And is it included in your expectation of a small profit?
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes, it is included in that. It's difficult to say exactly what that is. At this point, it's, let's say, roughly around $40 million, but that number can vary slightly.
Dan Galves:
Okay. And then just the last one is...
Deepak Ahuja:
Sorry, go ahead.
Dan Galves:
Yes, the last one is, this change in your service parts structure to make things more distributed rather than in the parts warehouse is, would that be like a meaningful working capital drag? What's the cash impact of that?
Elon Musk:
No, it's actually - we've just been very silly about where we store our parts. So it's actually going to be no change in sort of working capital or not something you would even notice in the financials. It's just being smarter about sending parts directly to service centers, in fact either directly from our factory here or from our suppliers and just ship and direct to the service center. Right now, actually, our costs will improve, I think, actually quite a lot, persistent, actually quite - they're kind of persistent. It's quite boneheaded, actually speaking self-referentially. So just being - so stopping doing the foolish things will massively improve our service costs, will massively improve customer happiness around the world, and it's just fundamentally better all around. I mean, there are some pretty - we've been just like super dumb in some of the things we've done, where - like [I went] to China last year as I always asked, "Okay, what are we doing wrong? What can we fix?" And then like our China team is great always. They're like, "Well, do you think we could have spare parts that are made in China just sent directly to China service centers? Because currently, there's a bunch of parts that are made in China then sent to a warehouse in New Jersey and then sent back to China." Literally, what was happening? It's super [dumb stuff]. So it's going to get way better. And yes, it's very queer.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Ben Kallo with Baird.
Ben Kallo:
I have one question and it's got four parts to it. Happy new year, Elon. So the first part is - so our Street numbers, like consensus, we've got everything wrong for six years or seven years since you went public, and there are about $6 in earnings. Talk to us about that if you can. Number two, Elon, could you talk to us about - can you talk about - I hear you cut some workforce at SpaceX and there at Tesla. I feel that you have a worry about global economy. Can you talk to us about how you feel about that with your guidance in order - in the same order? And then can we talk about, maybe sort of third thing, for JV? No one's ever going to talk about stationary storage, but we had a whole page on that with pretty good speech, and what should we be focusing on that? And what can that add to the bottom line on top of that $6 this next year?
Deepak Ahuja:
I mean, we can't really, Ben, talk about consensus and what that means. I think the - maybe the better approach is we are providing certain guidance here and you and the other analysts need to reflect that in your modeling. And that's the best indication from the company of our projections. In all fairness, that's the best way I can think of answering your question here.
Elon Musk:
Yes. J.B., is there anything...
Jeffrey Straubel:
I mean, I think the letter outlines the predicted growth in the battery storage business, the stationary storage business pretty clearly, and that should be included in the projections as well. So I mean, we're excited about it but I can't say much more detail.
Elon Musk:
I mean, our internal projections for stationary storage are closer to 3 gigawatt hours. But some of it is kind of lumpy and may not be completed this year. We would have done more in stationary storage last year except we were so strong for vehicle production. So we had to convert a bunch of stationary storage lines, battery lines, to vehicle battery lines. Otherwise, we would have done quite a bit more in stationary storage. I expect that to grow, I mean, probably twice as fast as automotive for short - a long time.
Jeffrey Straubel:
We continue to set production records basically every month. So that's growing.
Deepak Ahuja:
And the profitability of the storage business and the gross margin continue to improve as we keep ramping up production and scale.
Elon Musk:
It's going to be a gigantic business down the road.
Martin Viecha:
And the last question was about economy, global economy.
Elon Musk:
Sure. I mean, I do think that the economy moves in cycles and there's fairly a significant risk of a recession over the next 12 to 18 months, but I'm confident that Tesla will remain at least slightly profitable even with - even if there is a significant recession. And then when - and be all the stronger for it when there's recession. And the - we have to be relentless about cost in order to make affordable cars and not go back up. That's what our headcount reduction is about, yes, yes. I think we have to - it's - we have to be super hardcore about it. It's the only way to make affordable cars. The - on the SpaceX side, the cost reduction was for a different reason unrelated to - SpaceX has really - SpaceX has two absolutely insane projects that would normally bankrupt a company, Starship and Starlink, and so SpaceX has to be incredibly spartan with expenditures until those programs reach fruition.
Martin Viecha:
Okay, Great. I think that's all we have time for today. Thank you very much for your questions, and Elon would like to have some closing remarks.
Elon Musk:
Yes. So let's see. The - so Deepak is - well, I'd like you to make the announcement, but Deepak is going to be retiring.
Deepak Ahuja:
Again.
Elon Musk:
Yes, from Tesla.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
Deepak, I think it's now been - you first started with Tesla about 11 years ago, right?
Deepak Ahuja:
When - close to that, yes.
Elon Musk:
Yes, almost 11 years. Thank you for your tremendous contribution to Tesla. And he's announcing retirement but the retirement will not be immediate, but Deepak will continue to be at Tesla for a few more months and will continue to serve as a senior adviser to Tesla for probably years to come hopefully. And we thought long and hard about who the right person is to take over from Deepak, and that's Zach. And Zach has been with Tesla now for nine years...
Martin Viecha:
Nine years.
Elon Musk:
Yes. So Zach [ph] you had management and technology at Wharton undergrad and then worked at Tesla and then spent a couple of years at Harvard Business School, which I actually don't think was necessary, by the way.
Martin Viecha:
You told me that when I came back.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. So Zach's incredibly talented, has made a huge contribution to Tesla over the years, and obviously a very well-known [quantity] to the whole team and has the respect of the whole team. And Zach, I don't know if you'd like to say a few words?
Martin Viecha:
Yes, I will.
Elon Musk:
Okay. Or do you want, Deepak, to save you?
Martin Viecha:
Deepak?
Deepak Ahuja:
Sure, okay. Thank you, yes. Well, first of all, Elon, thank you very much for the opportunity for me to be here and be here again a second time. I've learned a lot from you and I've been always inspired by you, and I've been also very inspired by the team at Tesla who are incredibly brilliant, very passionate and just amazingly perseverant, the best team I could imagine. So thank you everybody for that. There is no good time to make this change. We felt strongly this was a good time. It's a new chapter, a new year. Tesla has had two great quarters of profitability, cash flow, so now a really solid foundation. And I feel really good about Zach taking over as the CFO. He's proven himself with his many years of experience and many tough challenges that he's worked on and really excited to have Zach take on this role, and I'll be here to support him and make sure we are all successful as a company.
Martin Viecha:
Yes, well, thank you, Deepak. Thank you, Elon. So my name is Zach Kirkhorn. Just a brief background on myself. So I joined Tesla just under nine years ago when it's a super small company with a lot of potential ahead of us and I was attracted to the mission and the vision of the company. Throughout that time, I've been deep in the operations of every major program of the company, from the Roadster to Model S and X, Model 3, scaling our Energy business and more things to come, which we've talked about on the call. I feel we're starting 2019 with a very strong financial foundation. We have enough cash to continue launching new programs and developing new technologies, and we're able to service upcoming debt obligations with our forecasted cash flows. My focus alongside the talented and amazingly passionate team at Tesla is to ensure we continue the terrific momentum on cost management and operational efficiency, which will enable us more - enable more access to our products around the world, which is key to achieving the mission of the company. On a personal note, Deepak, a huge thank you to you for your leadership, mentorship and support and very much looking forward to discussing our progress on future earnings calls.
Elon Musk:
Great.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much. We will speak to you in three months.
Elon Musk:
Thanks, guys.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in today's conference. This concludes the program. You may all disconnect, and have a wonderful day.
Executives:
Martin Viecha - Senior Director of Investor Relations Elon Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and Chief Executive Officer Madan Gopal - Functional Lead and Principal Safety Engineer Stuart Bowers - Vice President of Engineering Peter Bannon - Director of Hardware Engineering Andrej Karpathy - Director of Artificial Intelligence and Autopilot Vision Laurie Shelby - Vice President of Environmental, Health, and Safety JB Straubel - Chief Technical Officer Deepak Ahuja - Chief Financial Officer Jerome Guillen - Vice President of Programs
Analysts:
Dan Galves - Wolfe Research, LLC Pierre Ferragu - New Street Research LLP Romit Shah - Nomura Securities Co. George Galliers - Evercore ISI Maynard Um - Macquarie Group Adam Jonas - Morgan Stanley Toni Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. James Albertine - Consumer Edge Research, LLC Phil LeBeau - CNBC
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla Q3 2018 Financial Results and Q&A Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session, and instructions will follow at that time. [Operator Instructions] As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would now like to introduce your host for today's conference, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations. Mr. Viecha, you may begin.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you, Sherry, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's third quarter 2018 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, J.B. Straubel, Deepak Ahuja, and a number of other executives. Our Q3 results were announced at about 1:00 PM Pacific Time in the update letter we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portions of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. [Operator Instructions] But before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Musk:
Thanks, Martin. So I'll make some opening remarks, then we're going to talk about vehicle safety, Autopilot and battery safety. And we have a number of people from Tesla here to elaborate on that. I think there is just a lot going on that you would find interesting. But I want to start by thanking all of our customers, employees and shareholders. This was an incredibly stark quarter for Tesla. Model 3 production stabilized. We delivered a total of 84,000 vehicles globally, which is more than 80% of the vehicles that we delivered in all of 2017. In fact, we delivered more cars in this quarter than we did in all of 2016, in a single quarter. Model 3 became the best-selling car in U.S. in terms of revenue and the 5th best-selling car in terms of volume. We saw higher revenues and significantly better profitability in our Energy business. I mean, but I think with solar, it may have been the best quarter ever for solar. We achieved GAAP net income of over $300 million, increased cash and equivalents by $731 million and achieved a greater than 20% gross margin for Model 3. And moreover, we expect to again have positive net income and cash flow in Q4. And I believe our aspirations I think it will be for all quarters going forward. I think we can actually be positive cash flow and profitable for all quarters going forward, leaving aside quarters where we may need to do a significant repayment, for example in Q1 next year. But I think even in Q1, I think we can be approximately flat in cash flow by end of quarter. This quarter was made possible by the incredible execution of our employees across the board from sales, production, delivery, service, energy, engineering, finance and all of our G&A teams. Really, every part of the business executed incredibly well. I want to thank everyone again for your incredibly hard work. I especially want to thank customers who helped - it's like, I've never even heard of this, maybe this has happened before, but I've never heard of it, of a case where a company's customer has actually cared about the future of the company so much that they volunteer their time to help the company succeed. I think that's amazing. You just don't see that anywhere. So, yeah, it really chokes me up me up actually. This quarter we started rolling out Version 9.0 of our software, which is the biggest software upgrade in 3 years. And Model 3 received a 5-Star Safety Rating in every category and sub-categories. And it got less probability of injury of any car that the U.S. government has ever tested. Looking ahead, we expect to produce and sell even more Model 3s in Q4. And expect that trend to continue into Q1. And we're excited to bring Model 3 to Europe and China early next year, given that the market for mid-sized premium sedans in those regions is even larger than in North America. I said before that we must prove that Tesla can be sustainably profitable. But this quarter was an important step towards that and I'm incredibly excited about what lies ahead. So this is - yeah, just so proud of the Tesla team, our customers. We really appreciate the support of our long-term shareholders, and yeah, I suppose, on behalf of the Tesla team we're super appreciative of your support to what's obviously been a very difficult time. All right, now, let's move to - let's start up with vehicle safety. Madan, who is our Lead Vehicle Safety Engineer, been with the company for a long time. Madan, how many years has it been, that we've been working together?
Madan Gopal:
It's my 10th year. 10 years.
Elon Musk:
10 years, wow. So, yeah, I've been working with Madan for 10 years. We had so many conversations on vehicle safety. Wow. And you know what, we're really go - try to go the extra mile with vehicle safety. Not just - in fact, there is a series of government mandated tests. But what some companies do is they game the system. So they know where the - site full impact is going to be. They strengthen it right in that position. At Tesla, we're like, okay, what is the weakest point in the car; let us test it with that position. So, it's - the actual safety is not fully captured in the tests, because we anti-game the system. Madan, if you…?
Madan Gopal:
Thank you, Elon. Just want to give you a very quick background about myself.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Madan Gopal:
Like I said, I joined Tesla, 10 years. I'm extremely very happy to mention, working with extraordinary set of very passionate and very hard working individuals, and that essentially shows in our product. So that's very important for us. And also important is our principle mission statement on safety, because what we want to do is, safety has been - is probably the important factor for our vehicle, it's not just for electric vehicle, any vehicle, period.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Madan Gopal:
And that fundamental difference differentiates us, so which essentially helps us to keep adding new features and new safety technology. And that's very important and that shows in Model 3, latest thing that we have. Also the fact that we have electric vehicle, the design and architecture gives us a fundamental benefit over traditional vehicles. And that takes care of, for example, whether you have a block of engine in the front, where we can work with using a pretty much open architecture in the front. And the whole fact that you have all the electrical and high voltage, and motors and all of that, almost below the center gravity of the vehicle gives a lowest probability of the reduced rollover risk. And that significantly benefits.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. I think, architecturally, we have Newton on our side. And having Isaac Newton on your side is definitely the way to go.
Madan Gopal:
Right, exactly. So in the latest series of tests, I would like to specifically talk about Model 3. NHTSA did the series of tests, actually four tests, one frontal, two side and one rollover test. And if you look at, they have been calculating how can we distinguish within the 5-Star, there are so many vehicles that already gets 5-Star. And if you look at within the 5-Star, there is a…
Elon Musk:
They're just not all the same, not all the same.
Madan Gopal:
Yeah, exactly. So if you look at there, there is a metrics we came up with, which is a part of US NCAP rating itself, as a lowest probability of injury. And Model 3 has the lowest, and just to give you a context, there are total of 900 plus vehicles since 2011, which have been rated. So the fact that Model 3 is the best among all the 943 to be exact. So that speaks the volume. And I'm very happy to say that Model 3 has achieved. We are not stopping right now. What we would like to do next is how we can make use of the active safety and autopilot features, and make it even more improvement, so the next area that we are focusing on, how to integrate active and passive safety. That's our next area of challenge, which we will improve for sure.
Elon Musk:
Again, it's worth noting that the safety extends to not just people in the car, but also pedestrians.
Madan Gopal:
Correct.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, so not having a big engine block in front of the car is really helpful, so because if you - if a car would hit a pedestrian, we will get to active safety next, because the best thing is, obviously, not just to hit car or pedestrian. The fact that the hood can dent so far in is really helpful, because it ends up being like sort of - like a trampoline or like a - it has - you don't move a rock underneath it. It's very helpful. So it's helpful for pedestrian safety and for the safety of the people in the car. And then, even if you are to have like a head on collision with another car, the extended sort of crumple zone of a Tesla Model S, X or 3 is helpful to the people in the Tesla and the people in other car. So it's not just the people in the car.
Madan Gopal:
I'd like to add one item, which is essentially how we look at the real world safety, which has always been an important element for Elon. So if you look at our blog post, we showed how we handle the center pole impact in the frontal. By the way this is not part of NCAP rating. Just to show, how we go over and above the NCAP rating to make sure its real world safety. That's very important for us.
Elon Musk:
Exactly. That's what I meant, like anti-game the system like here, what is the worst way that the car could be hit, not just sort of strength in where we know the test will happen and that kind of thing. So obviously, we're all in these cars, our friends in the cars, families in the cars, so we care a great deal about safety. A lot of people think safety is boring, but not at Tesla. So thanks, Madan, it's a - thank you for your decade of hard work and the rest of the Tesla safety team. And with that, let's move onto Autopilot. And you guys could just give an update on sort of Autopilot software, AI and hardware. Yeah.
Stuart Bowers:
That's great. This is Stuart Bowers. We will soon begin to rollout the team's most advanced Autopilot feature ever, Navigate on Autopilot. In our last release, we launched a new set of neural network that combine together, provide a view of everything happening around the car. With Navigate on Autopilot, we'll use information to understand exactly where the car is on the highway system and to automatically change lanes, handle forks and take high curvature exits to follow a nav route. Initially, it will require drivers to confirm lane changes using the turn the signal, before the car moves into an adjacent lane. Future versions will allow customers to wave the confirmation requirement they choose to. One area that I'm personally really excited to build on this improvement is active safety. With the advancement in neural networks, covering 360 degrees of view around our car, we can provide a level of constant vigilance that humans just can't. Ultimately, this shall allow us to warn, even intervene for an enormous percentage of modern accidents and to ship these improvements as software upgrades to our existing customers.
Elon Musk:
We have a lot of - we see this all the time in the data where the cloud will do an automatic breaking event and save a pedestrian or another car from impact. This happens all the time.
Stuart Bowers:
All the time.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, all the time. Potentially, every day, that frequently…
Stuart Bowers:
Yeah, the team has done an incredible work here and by bringing up more of the cameras around the car we can detect things as they come toward us, not just directly in front of us.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Stuart Bowers:
Pete?
Peter Bannon:
Hi, this is Pete Bannon. The Hardware 3 design is continuing to move along. Over the last quarter, we've completed qualification of the silicon, qualification of the board. We started the manufacturing line, in qualification of the manufacturing line. We've been validating the provisioning flows in the factor. We built test versions of Model S, X and 3 in the factory to validate all the fit and finish of the parts and all the provisioning flows. So we still have a lot of work to do. And the team is doing a great job, and we're still on track to have it ready to go by the end of Q1.
Elon Musk:
Great. And that will be on it roughly 1000% increase in processing capability compared to the current hardware. And so, it's obviously giant improvement despite being a - it costs about the same. Cost, volume and power consumption are approximately the same as the current hardware, but it's a ten-fold improvement in frames per second.
Peter Bannon:
That's right.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, and improved redundancy as well. But very importantly - it's very important emphasize is that the only thing that needs to change between a car that's produced today and a car, let's say, produced in the two second quarter of next year is swapping out the Autopilot computer. And this is a simple change that takes less than half-an-hour in service to upgrade the computer. And so, anyone will be able to upgrade their computer to full self-driving capability or upgrade their car to full self-driving capability with a simple service visit. So we expect all cars with a Hardware 2 sensor suite, basically anything made in the last roughly two years will be upgradeable to full self-driving.
Peter Bannon:
Yeah. In fact, a lot of the cars we're using for testing today have in fact been upgraded from Hardware 2.
Elon Musk:
Right, so it's very important to emphasize, like people shouldn't - but 5% people who would want to wait until that comes out. But there is no need to wait till it comes out, because it's just a very simple plug-and-play change to get to the full self-driving. And anyone who is compatible with self-driving option will just get it done for free. And anyone who still wants to order full self-driving at this point, it's just an off menu item, you can still order it. But the - we took it off the order menu, just because there are - it was really creating a lot of friction in the sales process and people didn't understand the difference between Enhanced Autopilot and full self-driving. So just to simply the order process, we took that off. But anyone who asks for it can certainly get it. And it really ends up being a discount of future capability. But to be clear, there is definitely no need to wait until Q2 to order a car. It's - we want to make it just completely seamless process, so there is no advantage ordering now versus Q2. Andre, do you want to…?
Andrej Karpathy:
Yeah, certainly. Hi, everyone. My name is Andrej Karpathy. I'm the director of AI here at Tesla. And my team trains all of the neural networks that analyze the images streaming in from all the cameras for the Autopilot. For example, these neural networks identify cars, lane lines, traffic signs and so on. The team is incredibly excited about the upcoming upgrade for the Autopilot computer which Pete briefly talked about. This upgrade allows us to not just run the current neural networks faster, but more importantly, it will allow us to deploy much larger, computationally more expensive networks to the fleet. The reason this is important is that, it is a common finding in the industry and that we see this as well, is that as you make the networks bigger by adding more neurons, the accuracy of all their predictions increases with the added capacity. So in other words, we are currently at a place where we trained large neural networks that work very well, but we are not able to deploy them to the fleet due to computational constraints. So, all of this will change with the next iteration of the hardware. And it's a massive step improvement in the compute capability. And the team is incredibly excited to get these networks out there.
Elon Musk:
Great, thank you. Again - actually I've said this before, what I think - just talking a bit about the kind of long-term future, we absolutely see the future as kind of - as sort of a shared electric autonomy. So that you'll be able to do ride-hailing or share your car anyway, sort of long-term model that's some combination of like Uber, Lyft and Airbnb. There will be Tesla dedicated cars for ride-hailing and there will be - and any customer will be able to share their car at will, just like you share your house in Airbnb. So it's a combination of those two models. I think, it's pretty obviously where things are headed long-term. The advantage that Tesla will have is that we will have millions of cars in the field with full autonomy capability, and no one else will have that. So I think that puts us - that will end up putting us in the strongest competitive position long-term. And then, Laurie, can you finished off with a talk about factory safety, and thank you for the hard work of you and your team. I think we made great strides. And yeah, please, please, go ahead.
Laurie Shelby:
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, we have the safest cars made by the safest people. So it's exciting time here at Tesla. All car and manufacturing factories have injuries. At Tesla, we have a commitment to zero injuries. And our target is actually on good reporting. So we have good reporting of injuries, good reporting of near-misses, good observations and lots of improvements. So to be the safest company in the world, we have to be committed to that, and everybody here is. So we are actually steadily getting there. And we're not going to stop till we're there.
Elon Musk:
Absolutely. Yeah, so many were mentioning like for example, like we had like some sort of, for example, like we do get this like quite unfair acquisitions, for example one of them was like that we were underreporting injuries. And it's worth nothing that OSHA completed their investigation and concluded that we have not been doing anything of the sort.
Laurie Shelby:
Correct, correct. The factory here had a 4-month-long Cal-OSHA investigation. And it basically proves that we are recording properly and doing as we should be. So it's much different than what you would read about in the press.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Those are true.
Laurie Shelby:
Yeah. I'm very proud of the team for that. It's - one point I think people don't know is, I've been here about a year now, time flies and you're having so much fun.
Elon Musk:
It's like five years.
Laurie Shelby:
I know. But when I joined we were already, really a fraction, our injury rate was a fraction of what it has been when Toyota and GM ran the factory in the early day. So what we're all about is really continuing to make improvements from there. And what's also important is not to have serious injuries. And that's extremely rare here at Tesla. We have really strong focus on prevention, and also using mitigating controls, so these types of injuries don't occur. I mean, most of the injuries that we have are muscular sprains and things like that.
Elon Musk:
Yes. It's essentially it's a muscle sprain and getting scratched. That's the most that we're seeing.
Laurie Shelby:
Exactly. Yeah, and then finger cuts and sprains, so I kind of just want to break down a few things that my team is been working on along with all the leaders here. First is people and engagement. So one of the first things is meeting with you, Elon, meet with you on a regular basis. We meet with all the production leaders. So it's full-on engagement on improving safety. We have built a really strong EHS team, the best and the brightest. We have - and our EHS team is actually embedded into the line on the factory, because we learn the process and we learn the people. You don't know how to improve unless you're out there on the line, on the process, engaging with the associates, listening and learning from our associates. So we have really strong engagement, health and safety committees. We do find-it-fix-it walks or walker or leaders are out there walking and also looking for improvements. And actually just this quarter, we had over 15,000 improvements. I mean, that's like amazing, so very, very exciting about that. We also look at risk reduction in human performance. People are going to make mistakes, so we're going to design until we sail safely. We have an early symptom intervention program, this is where we have industrial athletes go out on the line and work with our associates, before anything happens, like if you have a pain, let's work it out, let's strengthen and really get our employees fit, so good doing that. We've also just opened a new and improved health clinic, so when injuries do occur we get the absolute best care for our associates. And it's actually overseen by one of California's leading orthopedic surgeons. And we did that, because most of our injuries, like we said like 80%, 85% are those sprains and strains. So now they get that best care here on site. And we have 24/7 care. We are actually staffed by three full-time doctors and nurses. And I am really super happy with the care they're giving, and I think the employees are as well. And the third…
Elon Musk:
Yeah, we're going to expand on that. So, yeah, the Tesla sort of health clinic both at Fremont and at Giga, so we have a really immediate first-class healthcare available right on the spot, when people need it. And this not just for workplace, this for workplace and non-workplace.
Laurie Shelby:
I know that's super exciting. We're…
Elon Musk:
Yeah. If anything goes, if you like become injured right off for any reason then there is healthcare immediately on site.
Laurie Shelby:
That's where we plan to give, exactly. And then finally, just being proactive, because that's what we're about, innovation and proactive. I mean, we joined National Safety Organization. We partner with many leading universities, including California Berkeley, Center for Occupational & Environmental Health. We do presentations there. We work with the automotive industry, and do benchmarking all of the time. We're always looking and bringing people in to look for things that we can do better, and for new technology and innovations in safety. And with all of that, we have made improvements in our injury rate. We are more than 10% better year-over-year in our lost work days and our days away. But the most important thing is we're also getting all those good engagement observations. They're moving up, so injury down, observations engagement up.
Elon Musk:
All right, listen. Thanks, Laurie.
Laurie Shelby:
Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Thanks, Laurie. And we'll provide further updates on workplace safety. And our goal is unequivocally to have the safest factories in the world, where people will look forward to coming to work in the morning. So it's like, yeah, that's our goal. All right, with that, we can move to questions.
Martin Viecha:
Cool. Well, thank you very much. Sherry, let's go to the first question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our first question comes from Dan Galves with Wolfe Research.
Dan Galves:
Hey, thanks for taking my questions. Congratulations on the quarter. It's really amazing to see this landmark quarter after covering the company for so long. And thanks for bringing some of your team on to the call. It's very interesting. My question is about cell supply. There has been some noise about tight cell supply in Sparks and tight labor supply. In the short term, could you just talk about whether demand is outpacing supply of battery cells and kind of what's your plan for long-term expansion, including cell supply in China?
Elon Musk:
JB, do you want to take it?
JB Straubel:
Sure. I can speak to that. This is JB. We have had a period, where the supply was fairly tight for Model 3, but it did not really constrain the Model 3 production in any significant way.
Elon Musk:
Less than a week.
JB Straubel:
Yeah, maybe for a few days. The impact was largely felt on the energy products. And that's still is somewhat tight. But we do, as we've pointed out in previous discussions, we do have third-party supplies of energy cells. So that production can continue even independently of the Panasonic supply in Sparks. So that's been very helpful. And that is expanding in future quarters. And also, the Panasonic supply is expanding, the productivity of existing lines is continuing to improve, with a lot of hard work from the engineering teams and just operational stability. And we continue to bring online new production lines. So even just in the last several weeks, we've started up yet another cell production line with Panasonic and through the end of the year, there's another line coming on, and then one shortly after that. So there is a steady increase in the total supply. That should keep us ahead of even Model 3 growth and also should let us have a larger percentage of energy supply be sourced from Giga locally.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. We are making a pretty nutty amount of the world's lithium-ion batteries. I’m wondering like, I think we're at a 60% or something?
Deepak Ahuja:
Yeah. So at the moment, if you look at, for example, for Q3, all electric vehicles made around the world, their total battery capacity was about 20 or 19 gigawatt hours. And what we produced in Q3 was about the same or a little bit higher, so about half of world's batteries basically.
Elon Musk:
Well, and that's - because we also sourced cells from Japan and elsewhere. Is that [indiscernible] towards just Giga or…?
Deepak Ahuja:
So - yeah, so just the Giga itself is about 20 and on top of that S and X is - I don't know, another 4 or 5.
Dan Galves:
Got it. No, it's a huge advantage. Are there plans that you can talk about for cell supply in China? Will that be produced in China? I'm assuming so.
Elon Musk:
Long-term, it will be produced in China. Short-term, we're not certain of the short-term situation, but long-term certainly.
Dan Galves:
Got it, okay. Thanks very much.
Martin Viecha:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Pierre Ferragu with New Street Research.
Pierre Ferragu:
Hey, thank you for taking my questions. I was very surprised in the numbers you reported today by - that your gross margin performance on the Model 3. So if I remember correctly, you were expecting more like a 15% type of margin for this quarter, and you actually did better than 20%. So can you take us through what's improved like faster and better than you had initially anticipated in the manufacturing line, and where these improvements came from?
Deepak Ahuja:
Deepak here, and Jerome and others please feel free to join. Our improvements on the cost side were in every aspect of cost. So clearly, our manufacturing labor hours improved significantly - our overall manufacturing costs dropped almost 30% sequentially Q2 to Q3. We produced more volumes, so we had better fixed cost absorption. We have far less scrap. Our yield on each of the lines across both factories improved significantly. And as we look forward, we see even more opportunities. We are going through this phase, where we are now stabilizing production and the team can now intensely focus on cost optimization. And that trend will just continue in Q4.
Elon Musk:
I think we’re also being relatively - on the conservative side when we predicted, where we said like 15% that we're…
Deepak Ahuja:
Right. Our expectation was we will do better, but we wanted to be conservative. You're right, in terms of our guidance that we gave for Q3. Yeah.
Pierre Ferragu:
Okay. Thanks. That's great. And then on the - as a quick follow-up, you've announced over the weekend like a mid-range car with a smaller battery pack. And I was wondering, as you're looking at expanding, for example, the Model 3, I think about it as you have two options, one was to go abroad and to keep what you are seeing higher end, higher ASP car, and the other one was to go for lower cost car and stick to the U.S. So how did you decide the sequencing of these two things? Why is lower car now and going abroad only early next year?
Elon Musk:
Well, we are trying to provide most affordable electric car options that we can. And since we just don't have the ability to get to the $35,000 car right away, we thought this might be a way to offer it as an intermediate step. And that's really it. We expect to start producing a significant volume for Europe in January. And obviously take some time to ship, so deliveries - probably pretty significant deliveries in Europe kind of in the late February, March timeframe, because the cars have to get all the way from California to a customer in Europe. And for us, the car is only counted as delivered if it reaches the end customer and all the paperwork is completed correctly. So it's the highest possible standard for considering a sale a sale. Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja:
[Indiscernible] that you start delivering cars.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. We may or may not deliver cars in APAC in Q1, but certainly in Q2. It will be kind of borderline as whether a car is delivered in APAC by the end of Q1. So I can't say it for certain. Definitely in Europe, but - and then definitely in APAC in Q2.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Romit Shah with Nomura Instinet.
Romit Shah:
Yes, thank you. I guess, just along those lines, you indicated that you're going to bring Model 3 to Europe early next year. Where would you like to see production in order to support that ramp overseas?
Elon Musk:
Well, initially production will occur. I mean, at least the last, it takes several months, our production is - vehicle production will take place at our car plant in California.
Romit Shah:
Sorry, I meant to ask, where would you like to see the production rate on a weekly basis go to, in order to support that ramp?
Elon Musk:
It's hard to predict with accuracy. The - and there is also, like with all the tariff wars and everything. So long term, like you say, like we’re not talking about like next quarter, so like what is- likely global demand for Model 3. It's probably in the order of anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million cars a year, let's say, quick global demand for Model 3. If we're talking like, they have the 3 series, that's around 0.5 million. The BMW 3 series is about 0.5 million units a year globally. And generally, we find that we outcompete the BMW 3 series quite well. So it seems like logical therefore that we will long-term have a higher production - higher demand. Maybe it's somewhere between the kind of the BMW 3 series and the Volkswagen Golf, which about a 1 million units a year. So, yeah, that's anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million units a year long term.
Romit Shah:
And you have to add new lines to support that or are you just going to continue to remove bottlenecks in the existing lines?
Elon Musk:
We're definitely going to do local production in China. We're moving rapidly on that. So we're driving to have Model 3 production for the China market or the Greater China market active certainly next year. It will be happening next year. But it will be done in with - in a very capital efficient manner, much more akin to the way we did general assembly line 4 versus general assembly line 3. And then, we'll also have a factory in - and in Europe long-term, because it's pretty silly to make cars in California and ship them all the way to Europe, that's far.
Martin Viecha:
Especially, in high volumes.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Exactly, especially if it's a - I'm not talking about the S and X. I'm just talking about the 3. So S and X will continue to be made in California. I think probably exquisitely here. For cars we're trying to maximize the portability and it makes a lot of sense to produce those cars at least in the continent where they are consumed or bought.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from George Galliers with Evercore.
George Galliers:
Thank you. Maybe just following up on the previous question, is the target still to produce 10,000 Model 3s a week in Fremont. And I think you mentioned in the past, that once you got to a run rate of around 5,000, you'd be better placed to assess what CapEx is required to get there. So as of today, do you have a better idea of what CapEx is required to get to that kind of level at Fremont?
Elon Musk:
I think we're not prepared to speak to that right now, except that it will be considerably less than money that we spent to get 5,000 in the first place, like quite - I think quite dramatically less, so like I probably see a path like 7,000 units for Model 3 with really minimal CapEx.
Jerome Guillen:
Very minimal.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, Jerome, yeah, it's very minimal to get to 7,000 a week. And then, I mean, that's really just basically solving - improving the uptime of the existing lines and we can do 7,000 a week.
Jerome Guillen:
Exactly.
Elon Musk:
Exactly, yeah. So and then it gets a little harder as you start to go above 7,000. We would need - at least bring the lines down in Fremont for significant upgrades to get to 10K. But also it's just not - we're not talking about massive amounts of CapEx. But I would say like long term, it's - again long-term it's - predicting these in a quarter-by-quarter basis is very difficult, because when you have an exponential growth rate like we do. I mean, if you look at Tesla cumulative deliveries over time, that's like the cleanest exponential curve that I've ever seen. But small movements in calendar time can look like a very large hit or miss, or way or the other, because it's such steep curve. That's why I am - it's always tricky to predict things on a quarterly basis. But a lot easier if you go out a year or so. Yeah, I mean, probably long-term it's, as we sort of 7,000 to 10,000 cars from Fremont of Model 3, and then, I don't know 5,000 to 8,000 in the rest of world, something like that. This is a guess.
George Galliers:
Okay. Thank you. And then, just as a follow-up, in the letter, you do point out the size of the European market for premium mid-sized sedans is roughly twice that of the U.S. Could you also maybe just comment to what your expectations of the mix in Europe? Based off Model S and Model X, do you expect a richer mix in Europe versus the U.S. or is it fairly similar?
Elon Musk:
We've given that zero thought. I mean, this is like - this is not, I've not - I don't know, Martin, you're going to…?
Martin Viecha:
All I'm aware of is that, because of cold weather and probably all-wheel drive and long battery range will be highly demanded in Europe. But apart from that, I mean, we ultimately have to start selling the car to see what the demand is, so…
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I mean, it seems like, it's likely to be comparable to - I think it's - it's pretty, I mean, that market is like twice big in Europe. And, well, there's likely to be at least as much demand in Europe than there is in the most market. Like that's a pretty safe bet. But our goal really is to make electric cars that everyone could forward, not to sort of line hot - high option value cars. It's like if we can produce the $35,000 car today, we would do it. We need more work, there is more work to do before we can make $35,000 car, and have it be positive gross margin. We're probably less than six months from that, but that's our mission.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. [Operator Instructions] Our next question comes from Maynard Um with Macquarie.
Maynard Um:
Hi, thank you. Congratulations on a great turning point for Tesla. As you continue to scale the business, can you talk about how we should think about how you balance profits versus reinvestments? You are targeting sustainable GAAP profitability and cash flow. But I'm curious, if there's a level of GAAP profitability or GAAP operating margin or cash flow you want to hold and then take the excess to fund new growth or accelerate opportunities?
Elon Musk:
Sure. I mean, maybe you could - if we'd characterize that question it will be like, are we starving new vehicle development in order to achieve GAAP profitability and cash flow positive, would that be an accurate? Is that essentially - like the answer is no. So we've made significant progress on the Model Y. So in fact, I approved the prototype to into production recently. We saw - it will be 2020 before that's in volume production. But we made great progress there. We also continue to make progress on the semi and the new Tesla Roadster. And then, actually probably some - firstly, most excited about is the Tesla pickup truck. It's like - I think it's going to reach the next level stuff there. And then also - I should not forget to mention, the solar tile roof will also start getting into volume production of the solar tile roof next year. That's quite a long development cycle, because anything that's roof is going to last 30 years. So even if you do accelerate life testing as fast as possible, there's still a minimum amount of time to do that. And there's a lot of engineering that goes into how do you put on the solar tile roof, but with - and not be really labor intensive in doing so. So there's a lot of engineering not just in the tile, but in the way it's done. And then, we've got to continue to improving some Powerwall, Powerpack, other energy products. I think, we've got the most exciting product roadmap of any company by far. I'm not even sure like probably twice - I don't even know who would have - which company would have a better product roadmap or even close, yeah. Maybe they do, but I don't know about them.
Maynard Um:
Great. And when you think about Tesla having its own ride-sharing fleet or giving people the ability to loan out their car like an Airbnb model, I'm curious if your long-term plan is to build a platform that's going to enable companies to write applications to turn the car directly into an application. And then can you also maybe just talk about that business model? Is that - should we be thinking more about like a revenue-sharing model sort of like how Apple takes a piece of revenue generated for applications from iPhones? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
I don't know turning the car into an application exactly. But I mean, maybe trying to do things that maximizes usefulness, and so if there's a way to think, where third-parties can do something and that could make sense. But I do know, for sure that Tesla will operate its own ride-hailing service will compete directly with Uber and Lyft obviously. And - but then also have the ability for customers to offer their car and add or subtract their car to the fleet at will. It will be a company owned fleet - and the company-owned fleet with just be aware that aren't enough customer cars to be life out. So if we find like a particular metro, there aren't enough customers who are going to add their car to the shared fleet. And then, that's where we'll start rum them with a Tesla fleet. So that's why it's a certain combination of Uber, Lyft and Airbnb. And then we charge something probably comparable to, yeah, you have to say [Asterworks] [ph] or I don't know we tried 30% or something, in order for somebody to add the car to the fleet. I think that's like a pretty sensible way to go.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley.
Adam Jonas:
Thanks, everyone. First question is on governance, as the company conducts its search for a new Chairman, what are the attributes, experiences of that person that you think would be a best shared or best value for Tesla?
Elon Musk:
Actually, I will get it restricted question to operational topics. Do you have…
Adam Jonas:
No problem. Yes, I do. Can you tell us about the folks who are taking deliveries of Model 3. What are the top cars, car models or brands they're trading and switching out how many are new to the brand? That kind of anything you are prepared to share and then I have a follow-up.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, absolutely.
Martin Viecha:
Hey, this is Martin. So I've done the analysis of all the trade-ins that we've received. And really the only pattern that are seeing is that, it sort of all across the boards and the vast majorities non-premium brands. I think that is the number one message, it's just more than half of the trade-ins we've received were priced that below $35,000 when new. But other than that there's no real pattern. I haven't noticed anything worth highlighting other than it's just a lot of people upgrading their cars, quite dramatically.
Deepak Ahuja:
This is a huge upgrade.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. For most - for many people it is the most expensive car they've ever bought. So they are clearly demonstrating what the money that they we're willing to spend extra money to get a Tesla. So like the sense like mass-market premium.
Deepak Ahuja:
And the price log is way beyond the back spread. It's clearly the value for the car, that they're perceiving, whether it's cost of ownership, whether it's sustainability, whether it's the brand or…
Elon Musk:
Safety.
Deepak Ahuja:
…and safety, all of the above is making a large number of customers jump up significantly in the purchase products.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I mean, really like I honestly feel like the top reason to refer a friend by Tesla is just going to keep your friend safe.
Adam Jonas:
That's a good reason. If I can just squeeze in since I couldn't ask the first one that you could answer, do you think that the third quarter is a milestone, Elon, where you think Tesla becomes sustainably self-funding, and perhaps not in need of outside capital? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. That is our goal. We do not intend to raise equity or debt. At least that's our intention right now, that may change in the future. But the current operating plan is to pay off our debts not to refinance them, but pay them off and reduce the debt load and overall leverage of the company. But I actually almost forgot one quite important thing. As - and this is quite helpful, it's always helpful to have these sort of crisis situations with logistics, for example. As I dug into the inventory like basically finished product inventory from factory to the customer, I was quite surprise to see how long that took that took, and that it was quite expensive in a lot of cases to get cars to customers. This was something I didn't fully appreciate before. And we really have a major initiative at Tesla to get the average time from the exiting the factory to receiving the check from the customer, being in the customers hand, if we can only get the check when we give the car to the customer. So getting car from factory to customer to get that to as short as possible. In August, the average time in North America to get a car from the factory to a customer was 30 days, which is embarrassingly long. By the end of the quarter, we've reduced it to around 20 days. And our goal in Q4 - this is a goal, not a promise. But our goal is to get the average time of the car from factory to customer under 10 days. This is a giant improvement in the capital efficiency of the company, because we're making on the order of $75 million worth of products per day - of cars per day. So every day, it required $75,000 - $75 million with capital, so every 10 days, it's $750 million. And we - obviously, we have a loan from the bank that we can make use of. But the banks will only loan us 85% of the cost of the vehicle, which translates to about 70% of the price of the vehicle. So - and then we've got this loan outstanding, which effectively increases the COGS of the car. And it dilutes the company to the tune of 30% of one of the inventory - of the finished goods in transit it. So that this is really like tightening that and getting that below 10 days in North America and then also improving dramatically the time - the transit time to Europe and Asia. It is where like having local factories is actually very important for capital efficiency of the overall system. Because, I think, over time, we want to get the time from a car going from a factory to customer under 7 days worldwide. And then, the terms that we have with from our suppliers are, on average, just over 60 days. Now, our product inventory management also there's a lot of room for improvement there. We think we can probably cut that down to a few $100 million or so, Deepak, something like that, maybe $200 million or $300 million of COGS at the factory. So effectively, what we're going to go is reverse the working capital requirement for the company quite dramatically, so to a point where the faster we grow the more capital we have. This is incredibly important for capital efficiency of the company. It's night and day. Deepak, is there anything you would like to…
Deepak Ahuja:
No. I think, you are totally - we are reducing the raw material inventory on one hand by keeping production stable, finding efficiencies and warehouse management and the supply chain. And at the same time, reducing the time to deliver the car and convert that car into a cash. And that significantly improves working capital needs.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, it's really quite dramatic. So, yeah, I think it sure profoundly changes the financial effectiveness of Tesla.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yeah, we reduced our inventory in Q3, which helped. And then, although we had higher payables because - sorry, higher receivables, because the quarter end, the weekend, we won't have that in Q4, so all of this should continue to help us in Q4 and beyond, the working capital again.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I mean, it occurs to me that, even if the only thing - like even if this was the only thing that Tesla did different was to shorten the time from factory to end customer. In any given company that would outcompete all of the companies over time. It would not be a contest.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Thank you very much. Let's go for the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Toni Sacconaghi with Bernstein.
Toni Sacconaghi:
Yes, thank you. I have one for Deepak and then a follow-up please. Deepak, the OpEx expense management was very strong in the quarter. I think was down 13% sequentially and OpEx was only up 5% year-over-year despite revenue growing 71%. So on that front, I mean, in hindsight did you get too bloated and needed to get more rightsized? And looking forward, how do we think about OpEx growth versus revenue growth on kind of a more normalized basis?
Deepak Ahuja:
Yeah, Toni, so excluding one-time items, our OpEx decreased sequentially by 5% to just clarify that first of all. And a lot of that was driven by the actions we took in Q2, to be more efficient with our employee headcount. We benefitted from that Q3. And we were really careful in terms of all of our spending. The other piece that helped us is a lot of our Model 3 spending on expense sort of R&D is reducing, because Model 3 is going into production, so Q2 to Q3 we saw reduction there. And it just gives you the sense of the leverage of the expenses can have while the revenue was growing dramatically. So, our OpEx will increase in the future, but at a far slower rate and we will continue to be really, really careful about the spending. And I think there are actually more efficiencies that we can find.
Elon Musk:
We are going to find them, absolutely.
Deepak Ahuja:
Right, so we will continue down this path.
Elon Musk:
Definitely.
Toni Sacconaghi:
And then to - thank you for that. And then to follow up, I was just wondering if you could help us a little bit on the back to the gross margin or Model 3 and the $35,000 car. So this quarter, I impute that Model 3 ASPs were maybe $59,000 and that might suggest that gross margins on a $35,000 Model 3 might be about zero. And, Elon, I think you alluded to the fact that the goal is really to get positive gross margins on a $35,000 car before shipping. Are those all fair assessments? And I guess the question is where is - where would a Model 3, $35,000 Model 3 be in terms of gross margins today? And where does it need to be before you want to offer it broadly to consumers?
Elon Musk:
Yeah, I mean, it's - the challenge with the - asking questions of that nature and deal is that, it is a rapidly changing situation, so like literally if you would ask those in a month, it will be different to another month, it will be different. There is no question we need to get to a point where we can sell a $35,000 car and where the full accounted for COGS of the car is, let's say, on the order of $35,000 or slightly less than $30,000. Like I think we'd want to ideally get the COGS of the car - of that configuration car under a 30,000. That would be - that's our goal. That's what we're pushing very hard to achieve.
Deepak Ahuja:
Exactly. And it's a matter of time, it's a [Technical Difficulty] there is a significant material cost reduction that pumps the smaller battery packs, fewer amount of cells. It's not the same cells that we have in the existing cars. And you would see…
Elon Musk:
[What's an interesting] [ph] cell, but it's not the…
Deepak Ahuja:
It's the same amount of cells, so [fewer costs] [ph].
Elon Musk:
Fewer cells and then non-cell portion of the pack, there also cost reduced. With the current mid-range pack it still has basically about the same non-cell portion of the packing cost.
Deepak Ahuja:
And we're achieving massive reduction in all of our manufacturing costs per car, which will continue. And as volume grows that also helps us in the fixed cost absorption. So it's the same factors that has helped us so far, will continue to help us going forward to get us there. Anything you want to add JB for that?
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Martin Viecha:
Great. Let's go to next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from James Albertine with Consumer Edge.
James Albertine:
Great. Good afternoon, and thanks for taking the question and congratulations.
Elon Musk:
Thanks.
James Albertine:
I want to just point a clarification, Elon, you mentioned in August, the time to get the car from the factory to a customer was 30 days, down to 20, at the end of the quarter your goal is under 10 by the end of 4Q. Where do we see that flow through from a COGS perspective? Is that an automotive gross margin or is that in services and other at this point?
Deepak Ahuja:
It's all in automotive, gross margin and our logistics cost outbound. It's all in COGS, the automotive.
Elon Musk:
Outbond logistics. Yeah, I think we'd see a reduction in inbound logistics as well as outbound logistics. Maybe your question is like for the debt that is carried of that period of time, is that going to COGS, or is that not?
Deepak Ahuja:
The interest expense also that's in the interest expense line. That is not in COGS.
Elon Musk:
Okay, yeah. That's why - I do think like the - the difference in COGS should probably broadened to include anything that's directly driven by volume, essentially that affects the marginal cost of the vehicle. So although that is not in - officially in COGS, in my opinion, it probably should be. It's to take the ABL interest expense and apply that effectively to the cost of the car.
Deepak Ahuja:
And from a broader sense you're looking at it as the cost of doing business, which can be avoided.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Just, essentially, the cash flow ability increases quite dramatically. Dilution or leverage outside of the ABL line improves dramatically. And then the effective cost of the car also reduces, because you don't have the interest expense. If you have interest expense over 20 days versus 10 days is a big difference.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yeah.
James Albertine:
Understood, and I appreciate that clarification. Sort of just trying to get at, you've been running a negative gross margin in services and other for several quarters now. And I wanted to get a sense for when that could maybe trough and starts to turn a corner and to generate some profit for you. I understand there's a lot of building out going on for sales, service and charging infrastructure. But if you could give us some kind of clarification there, that would be I think helpful. And if you're willing maybe to provide an update on where you stand today in terms of battery costs, I know your goal, but sort of parity with ICE vehicles, but maybe an update if you're willing to provide and where you stand on that trajectory? Thanks.
Deepak Ahuja:
I think, over time, every quarter progressively we will see an improvement in the service and other business, as our revenue continues to grow, and the size for fleet grows, as simple as that.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Long-term, I would expect service to be a significant revenue item, and to be a positive margin contributor, as it's going to be a function about fleet size…
Deepak Ahuja:
And age.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, and it's essentially…
Deepak Ahuja:
Exactly. And if the car is under warranty now.
Elon Musk:
Exactly, we're under warranty. Just like a lot of stuff is under warranty. But as the warranty expires, so there is like non-warranty items then we'd expect service to positive gross margin.
Deepak Ahuja:
Okay. And that also includes our used car savings.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, a good point.
Deepak Ahuja:
And our used car savings is continuing to grow and they have a healthy margin. And so, that overall business for mature companies is in some cases more profitable than new product sales. I'm not just talking about OEMs, car auto OEMs. And we are at the early stage of our growth here. And as our fleet size grows there are just so many opportunity in that business. That it's a matter of time, simply said.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
James Albertine:
Okay. And on the battery cost? There was a question there.
Elon Musk:
Well, that is a key sort of like competitive metrics. So I think it's safe to say, we're much better than anyone else by and large. But we prefer not to give a precise number.
Martin Viecha:
Okay. And now let's go to the last question, please.
Operator:
Thank you our final question comes from Phil LeBeau with CMBC TV.
Phil LeBeau:
Thank you, guys. Elon, a quick question, in terms of the federal tax credit starts to phased out as your sales cross over the threshold, what kind of an impact have you guys modeled into? How much that might slow down potential sales?
Elon Musk:
We don't expect this to result in - I mean, yes, those are - the sales tax or the tax incentive in the U.S. drops in half at the end of this quarter. But then we also start shipping to Europe and then start shipping to Asia. And we certainly do not expect anything that will cause productions drop below, let's say, a minimum of 5,000 cars a week.
Phil LeBeau:
But in terms of in the United States, do you expect that it will slow down demand and sales within the U.S.?
Elon Musk:
I think that as we're able to offer low cost versions of the car, that we would expect demand to sustain in the U.S. I want to be clear, like it's not like we're holding back this lower cost version of the car intentionally. Just like that we said, is there anything we can do to provide lower cost car now, and that's where we came up with depopulated long-range pack. It's just like basically taking - having long range pack with fewer cells, like we really care about providing the end customer with the most affordable car that we could possibly produce, the best probability. And if we could do the smaller pack now, we absolutely would. It's just going to take us, I don't know at least three months to get the production going. And then you got slower [ph] production. And that production is going to go to - we got to make packs, packs got to go to the vehicle factory. The cars are going to have to get delivered to customers. So that's why customers will probably see the smaller battery pack on the order of like March or something or February maybe. It's something on that order. And…
Phil LeBeau:
Okay. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
One thing - at least, it did triggered kind of like maybe the points that I was bearing in mind. As our quarterly better indicates, the Model 3 has the - is the most efficient energy per mile electric vehicle out there, because it's got the best efficiency. So we've got the best in terms of miles or kilometers per kilowatt hour. And we also have the lowest cost per kilowatt hour. This makes it very difficult for other companies to compete with Tesla, because we own the most efficient car and the lowest cost of batteries. So I do encourage our competitors to really make a huge investment. And we've been saying that for a long time. And then they're only in a competitive disadvantage because they didn't - we tried to help them as much as we could and they didn't want to take our help. So they can use all that patents for free. We were happy - they can use our super charger network, if they - and just have an adapter for our connector or something. We want to be as helpful as possible to the rest of the industry. The fact that matter is we made the investment in the Giga factory and other companies didn't. And we put a lot of effort into having extremely efficient cars which the other - having most efficient power-trains, and the other companies didn't. But sure, they will over time, but that's what has put us in quite a strong competitive position right now.
Martin Viecha:
Fantastic, I think that's all we have time for today.
Deepak Ahuja:
Just I want to add a comment in closing.
Martin Viecha:
Sorry, go for it.
Deepak Ahuja:
And Elon started with it, and I wanted to say that from myself personally here. I want to personally thank all the Tesla employees that worked incredibly hard this quarter and then prior quarters in each and every part of our business. Our results really are a reflection of the execution done in the company, done by the company, and the passion that our employees have to deliver such results despite all odds. And I also want to thank all our customers and all our investors who have believed in us, in our product, and our vision of accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy. So thank you from myself.
JB Straubel:
No, I'm good.
Elon Musk:
All right, anybody have any additional comments or anything? All right, thanks, everyone. And, yeah, I forward to the next call. Thanks.
Deepak Ahuja:
Thank you. Goodbye.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in today's conference. This does conclude the program. You may all disconnect, and have a wonderful day.
Executives:
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc. Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc. Stuart Bowers - Tesla, Inc. Andrej Karpathy - Tesla, Inc. Peter Bannon - Tesla, Inc. Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc. Robin Ren - Tesla, Inc. Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc. Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc. Todd A. Maron - Tesla, Inc.
Analysts:
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC Pierre C. Ferragu - New Street Research LLP (US) Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Securities International John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch Alexander Haissl - Joh. Berenberg, Gossler & Co. KG (United Kingdom) Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal Zachary Shahan - CleanTechnica
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla Q2 2018 Financial Results and Q&A Webcast Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session, and instructions will follow at that time. As a reminder, this conference may be recorded. I would now like to introduce your host for today's conference, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations. Mr. Viecha, you may begin.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you very much, Shiree, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's second quarter 2018 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, JB Straubel, Deepak Ahuja, Robin Ren, our Head of Sales; Jerome Guillen, our VP of Trucks; and we also have our Autopilot team with us here, Andrej Karpathy, Director of AI; Stuart Bowers, our VP of Engineering; and Pete Bannon, our Director of Silicon Engineering. Our Q2 results were announced at about 1:00 PM Pacific Time in the Update Letter we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow up. Before we jump into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Hi. Thank you for joining. First of all, I'd like to say we're incredibly proud of the Tesla team for producing 7,000 Model 3, Model S and Model X vehicles in the last week of June. It was an amazing effort. It's an honor to work with such great team to produce that incredible result. It's like mind-blowing. We continued to achieve 5,000 Model 3s per week, or 7,000 combined S, X and 3, multiple weeks in July, showing that, so we're able to do this on a sustained basis. And we expect to, in the absence of a force majeure or some very unexpected event, be able to achieve an average of 5,000 Model 3s or above for Q3 and 2,000 Model S, Xs or above per week for Q3 as well. So essentially, 7,000 cars a week plus on average for Q3. That's an amazing jump from only a year ago. We were producing 2,000 vehicles a week. It's really kind of a mind-blowing leap forward for a manufacturing company. So, yeah, just incredible work by the team to do that. Many, many late nights, weekends, extreme amounts of effort and lots of smart ideas. It's amazing. One of the results you're seeing is that the Model 3 market share has surpassed all competitor premium midsized sedans combined. So, Model 3 market share is now a majority, in July, it was a majority of all premium sedans. That trend is, we think, likely to continue. We do not think it will stop there. I have Robin Ren here, who is our worldwide head of sales, to talk about some of the interesting elements that we're seeing in terms of cars that people are trading in, the sales and demand trends, it's looking really positive. We're also getting great feedback on Model 3 from our customers, and we're now delivering (04:13) Dual Motor and All-Wheel Drive versions and the Model 3 reviews are outstanding. Really couldn't ask for better reviews from some of the toughest critics in the world. And it's – yeah. The thing that we're really finding is that the more Model 3s we deliver to the field, it's actually causing parallel growth of our sales. So, we deliver a Model 3 to somebody, they love it, they tell all their friends, they're actually – really, our customers are our primary sales force. They love their car and take their friends for a drive and that's the thing that fundamentally drives our sales. But not everyone has a (04:59) Model 3 obviously, so we need to get the cars out there for test drives. As it is right now, not even all stores in North America have Model 3 for test drives. We prioritize getting cars to customers, but we're soon going to have Model 3s available for test drives in all stores and both the performance version and the rear-wheel drive version. So because a lot of people, they will not buy a car until they test drive it, which is not unreasonable. Although on Sunday when I delivered it, testing out like direct delivery, which I think is definitely the future, direct delivery from factory to customer's home or work or wherever they are, the guy who bought it had never actually even sat in a Model 3. I was like, wow, okay. I mean I said, well, how do you feel about the car now that you have it and you've driven it? He's like I love it. It's amazing. So, yes. It seems to be really well-received. Yeah. So, at a production rate of 7,000 cars a week, we believe we can be sustainably profitable from Q3 onwards. We're going to try to raise that rate of the Model 3 production steadily in the coming quarters and try to get to the 10,000 cars a week number as soon as we can. As we spent a lot of time debugging a wide range of manufacturing issues that the potential for our existing lines to be able to produce far more cars is much greater than expected. That by simplifying production lines, by speeding them up, by, in some cases, everything is being done manual instead of automatic, and in other cases, having be done automatic instead of manual, we've been able to achieve dramatic improvements to the output of existing lines, which means that our CapEx growing from 5,000 cars a week to 10,000 cars a week is a tiny fraction of the CapEx needed to grow from 0 to 5,000 Model 3s. This is, I think, very good news for capital efficiency of the company. And with (07:43), that it's going inform future mass market vehicles that we produce. And from an operating plant standpoint, from Q3 onwards, I really want to emphasize our goal is to be profitable and cash-flow positive for every quarter, going forward. Now obviously, if there's a big recession or there's a severe force majeure event that interrupts the supply chain, that's not always possible, but we're confident that in, provided the economy is roughly where it is today or reasonably good and there's not a big force majeure event that we – I feel comfortable achieving a GAAP income positive and cash flow positive quarter every quarter from here on out. That's a – there may be occasional quarters, where we pay back a big loan or something, where there may be just because we paid back a big loan. But absent that, it would be cash flow positive. So, once again, I want to thank the Tesla team for their incredible work and our customers for their support. Without the great people we have at Tesla and the customers who put their faith in us by buying our product, we would not be here today and, yeah, really never been more excited about the future of Tesla. We've got super exciting set of products to bring out in the future. And, yeah, I mean, sorry if I sound a little tired. I've been working like crazy in the body shop lately, but it's really going great, super excited. It's like, yeah, some good people. And a number of the executive team here. In particular I asked the three key leaders of the Tesla Autopilot team to be here. So, I think to go from here to see if Autopilot leaders of Tesla could introduce themselves and say a bit about what you're working on, what you're excited about in the future. Sorry if I put you guys on the spot or anything. I think we're making pretty radical advances in the core software technology and the division beyond that. And then very importantly with the Tesla self-driving chip technology that we've been working on for three years is finally coming to fruition. Pete Bannon is going to talk a lot about that. But it's a plug-in replacement for the existing computer and enables an order of magnitude improvements in operations per second or frames per second as a way to think about it. And we think this is really the key to Tesla full vehicle autonomy. And like I said, designed to be really easy to replace. I'll let Pete talk about that. So, let me start off like Stuart, Andrej, and then Pete.
Stuart Bowers - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Hi. I'm Stuart.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
You need to talk louder by the way.
Stuart Bowers - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, we'll talk extra loud. So I'm Stuart. Yeah, joined the team relatively recently. Incredibly excited to kind of see the foundation the team has built up until this point and we're building on top of that right now. So right now, a lot of the focus is on Autopilot v9, which is our sort of on-ramp to off-ramp solution that's going to automatically attempt to change lanes, understand what lane the car is in, understand the route the user wants to travel and take that route for the user and ultimately hand back control to that user which is kind of stay in (11:50) control.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Integrated navigation. So, you'd like (11:54) by the way, a little tip for if you're driving Model S or X or 3, is if you just tap the Navigate button and just drag down, it will automatically navigate you to your home or work, depending upon where you are. That's a pretty cool feature.
Stuart Bowers - Tesla, Inc.:
So, yeah, that's part of the focus right now. We're also kind of digging in on some new safety features. I think probably the thing which is most exciting for me, coming from the team is just seeing the foundation that's been built out over the last two years. I think Andrej will talk a lot about some of the perception and vision work we've done there with the data engine. That has sort of allowed us to build on top of that very, very quickly and I think we're all starting to see a new set of safety features that really only make sense in this world, we have extremely high understanding of what's happening around the vehicle. So, I think when I start thinking about like what gets me excited when I come into work, it's like, one, starting to introduce real aspects of kind of not just making the commute kind of reducing the drudgery or kind of the risk of commuting but also really (12:51) fun and the second is like dramatically improving safety in a way that you really can only do once you have this very nuanced understanding of the world around you with perception.
Andrej Karpathy - Tesla, Inc.:
Hello everyone. My name is Andrej Karpathy, and I'm the Director of AI here at Tesla. In particular, I lead the vision team which is responsible for turning the video stream that we receive from all the cameras and the vehicle into an understanding of what is around us and around the vehicle. I worked with Neural Networks for about 10 years mostly as a (13:23). And what I'm really excited about is really building out this infrastructure for computer vision that underlies all the neural network training, trying to get those networks to work extremely well, and make that a really good foundation on top of which we build out all the features of the Autopilot like the features associated with the v9 release that's going to come up and that Stuart as mentioned.
Peter Bannon - Tesla, Inc.:
Hi. This is Pete Bannon. My team...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
(13:49)
Peter Bannon - Tesla, Inc.:
My team is leading currently the Hardware 3 development. The chips are up and working, and we have drop-in replacements for S, X and 3, all have been driven in the field. They support the current networks running today in the car at full frame rates with a lot of idle cycles to spare. So, I think we're all really excited about what Andrej and his team will be able to do with this hardware in the future. I think like one little anecdotal story was I gave a talk to his team on Hardware 3 last month explaining how it worked and what it was capable of, and then afterwards, one of the researchers came up to me. He was really excited, and he said, this is so exciting. I'm really excited about exploiting this hardware and he said, I think people are going to want to come and work at Tesla, just to have access to this hardware and to try it out because it's so exciting. So as a hardware designer, having excited software developers is the best. And it's a really fun place to work because I do get to work with my two primary customers, Stuart and Andrej, and making them happy is pretty fun.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, actually, Pete, maybe just – some people know about your background, but not everyone does. So if you could just like – Pete's a super humble guy, but it would be great just to – yeah. Talk about the stuff you've done before.
Peter Bannon - Tesla, Inc.:
Let's see. I started working designing computers at Digital Equipment Corporation in 1984, back when they were refrigerator-sized, and I've been working on smaller and smaller designs ever since. I was a Intel Fellow working on a team for a little while, then I was VP of Architecture and Verification at PA Semi, which was acquired at Apple. I led the design of the first ARM 32-bit processor that went into the iPhone 5. I built the team that designed the first ARM 64-bit processor in the world which went into the iPhone 5S. And then I worked on performance modeling and performance improvements at Apple for eight years. And then two years later, I came to Tesla and designed the neural network accelerator that's part of Hardware 3 and helped architect the rest of the Hardware 3 solution that will be in the car next year.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, it may be worth articulating some of the details, design principles that explain why the Tesla AI chip, or AI computer, essentially, for the car is able to achieve an order of magnitude better processing than anything else that exists. Yeah.
Peter Bannon - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. So, like two years ago when I joined Tesla, we did a survey of all of the solutions that were out there for running neural networks, including GPUs. We went and talked to other people like at ARM that were building embedded solutions for running neural networks. And pretty much everywhere we looked, if somebody had a hammer, whether it was a CPU or a GPU or whatever, they were adding something to accelerate neural networks. But nobody was doing a bottoms-up design from scratch, which is what we elected to do. We had the benefit of having the insight into seeing what Tesla's neural networks looked like back then and having projections of what they would look like into the future, and we were able to leverage all of that knowledge and our willingness to totally commit to that style of computing to produce a design that's dramatically more efficient and has dramatically more performance than what you can buy today.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Cool. Thanks. Yeah, I mean, essentially the key is to be able to run the neural net at a fundamental, at a bare metal level so that it's especially doing the calculations in the circuits itself and not in some sort of emulation mode which is how a GPU or a CPU would operate. So, you want to do basically a massive amount of localized matrix multiplication with the memory right there. So, it's a huge number of very simple complications with the memory needed to store the results of those complications right next to the circuits that are doing the matrix calculations. And the net effect is an order of magnitude improvement in the frames per second. Our current hardware, which – I'm a big fan of NVIDIA, they do great stuff. But using a GPU, fundamentally it's an emulation mode, and then you also get choked on the bus. So, the transfer between the GPU and the CPU ends up being one of the constraints of the system. So, the net effect is we're able to, with the Tesla computer – and we've been like semi-stealth mode basically for the last two to three years on this, but I think it's probably time to let the cat out of the bag because the cat's going to come out of the bag anyway. But it's an incredible job by Pete and his team to create this, the world's most advanced computer designed specifically for autonomous operation. And as a rough sort of (18:58) whereas the current NVIDIA's hardware can do 200 frames a second, this is able to do over 2,000 frames a second and with full redundancy and fail-over. So, it's an amazing design and we're going to be looking to increase the size of our chip team and our investment in that as quickly as possible. I think we have some of the best aces in the world, but I think we want to build on that even more. And it costs the same as our current hardware and we anticipate that this would have to be replaced, this replacement, which is why we made it easy to switch out the computer, and that's all that needs to be done. If we take out one computer and plug in the next. That's it. All the connectors are compatible and you get an order of magnitude, more processing and you can run all the cameras at primary full resolution with the complex neural net. So it's super kick-ass. Thank you for doing that.
Peter Bannon - Tesla, Inc.:
You're welcome.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thanks for making nets and thanks for making the software. Anyway, basically I wanted to introduce three of the key people at Tesla that are doing this. I have huge respect and admiration for you guys and it's because of what you and your team's doing that Tesla will be successful in this arena. Thank you.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you, Elon. Shiree, let's go to the first question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our first question comes from Tony Sacconaghi with Bernstein.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Yes. Thank you. I have one question and one follow-up, please. First, just on gross margins, it looks like S & X gross margins were up maybe 500 basis points sequentially and I'm wondering maybe you can articulate what drove that. And then, more importantly, it looks like you're calling for Model 3 gross margins to go from about maybe 3% this quarter to 15% next quarter. That's about a $6,000 cost out per car and I'm wondering if you can maybe help us understand what sort of the forces that drive that kind of improvement in a relatively short timeframe.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I'd like to apologize for being impolite on the prior call. Honestly, I think there's really no excuse for bad manners and I was violating my own rule in that regard. Certainly, I have some excuse. There are reasons for it in that I'd gotten no sleep and been working sort of 110-hour, 120-hour weeks. But, nonetheless, there's still no excuse. My apologies for not being polite on the prior call.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
I appreciate that. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And let's see. With respect to gross margin, I'll touch on that and then hand the rest to Deepak, but, certainly, when it's filling (22:11) up the production line, there are a tremendous amount of inefficiencies. There's a lot of hurry up and wait, where some parts of the production line move well. Then, one part doesn't and you have associates waiting around with nothing to do. There are parts that we thought were right but then it turns out that they weren't right. We got to send them back to the supplier. It's just like the whole sort of giant machine. It just needs to kind of lurch into a high pace and there's a lot of lurching, which is very inefficient. So, you end up having super high labor costs per car and it just takes time to sort of spool up this giant machine. Basically a production system is like a giant cybernetic collector and it moves as fast as the slowest part. So, as we address those slow parts and as we improve efficiency, then gross margin and so the profitability per car just improves dramatically. That's sort of at a high level. Deepak, do you want to add to that?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Elon, you described it extremely well. So just to sort of summarize, this was a major milestone for us in Q2 that the gross margin in Model 3 turned slightly positive and we feel really good about the path ahead. And as Elon said, it's driven predominantly by manufacturing cost efficiencies. The labor hours that we use to produce each car becomes less. The initial ramp-up costs that we have that are one-time, those inefficiencies disappear. Our fixed costs that are there that gets leveraged to a higher volume. So, all of that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Actually, a thing that can also happen is that if it turns out, let's say, the production part was either designed wrong or built wrong or there's something wrong with it, then on camera, on (24:16) emergency basis, we have to go with low volume tooling which can be produced quickly. But a part produced off of low volume tooling can easily be 10 times more than a part produced off of production tooling. And so, sometimes where it gets really bad, if you've got a machine something out of a block and has either that or going to make a car, then the cost of using low volume cost of use (24:45) of low volume tooling can be really nutty.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And the journey just continues as we stabilize and grow production from these levels we achieve even more efficiencies. And Q3 also benefits with somewhat improved mix as we're going to sell more All-Wheel Drive and performance cars and in the long run as we continue to achieve those efficiencies on cost, our gross margins will continue to increase.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I don't know if this trend will continue. We're trying to give you essentially all the information that at least we know of. But we're seeing roughly half of all customers choose the Dual Motor or All-Wheel Drive option, which is actually quite a good positive surprise.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, it's been heartening to see the mix in terms of what customers want. Robin can probably add more to that.
Robin Ren - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. So, starting from end of June when we opened the configurator and invited existing reservation orders, we saw tremendous excitement and response from our customers. As Deepak just mentioned, we actually see more orders for the All-Wheel Drive Dual Motor car and performance cars combined than the rear wheel drives.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, we don't want to say like this should be assumed to be a continued thing. It's just the thing we are seeing now. Yeah.
Robin Ren - Tesla, Inc.:
Correct. Another thing I want to point out is that we are actually – since we opened the configurator to the general public in early July, we are seeing an increased demand coming from people who do not currently hold a reservation. I think that's something that we found super exciting, because these are the people who actually had no idea about Model 3 and they heard about Model 3 is available to order, many of them requested test drives and since early July, we have over 60,000 test drive requests in the U.S. alone and these people come into our stores, do the test drive, and they become super excited and they decide to order the car. So, we believe that the strong demand coming from especially the non-reservation orders is going to dramatically increase as we increase our test drive population. To give you an example, three weeks ago, we had only eight stores having test drive cars to Elon's point earlier. Now we have over 90 stores having test drive cars.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's worth mentioning – just an interesting little bits of information that Robin was telling me. I'd just like to also (27:34) Robin on doing a great job running worldwide sales. Nice to have you in this role and the awesome work done in China was really some next level stuff. Anyway, Robin was born and raised in Shanghai and has been – along with Tom and Grace (27:55) and other members of our team in China has been sort of instrumental in establishing the China factory and making sure that gets done right and having a great relationship with the government. And so it's nice work in that regard. It's really – I think some of the things people don't expect like what are the top five trading cars for Model 3?
Robin Ren - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, this is very interesting. So, we looked at what people who are buying Model 3 cars in the United States, what cars they are trading in. What we found is through this year, from January to July, the top five non-Tesla cars people are trading in to get into a Model 3, they are Toyota Prius, BMW 3 Series, Honda Accord, Honda Civic and Nissan Leaf.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Really surprising.
Robin Ren - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. They are surprising because they are not the traditional premium sedans. They are actually – many of them are mainstream midsized sedans.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Right. And we're obviously at this point not yet selling our $35,000 car, so this is promising for the future. All right. Cool. Next question?
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Joseph Spak with RBC Capital Markets.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Hi. Good afternoon. Thanks. Maybe we could tackle some of the commentary about the Gigafactory coming in China. When you first announced the Gigafactory 1, I think you said that was going to be about a $5 billion investment, and you mentioned some volume numbers associated with what you think you could do in China. So we do some extrapolation, looks like maybe 15 gigawatt hours of initial capacity. I'm wondering if you could also do a linear extrapolation on the costs you think you need for that factory.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. And I would also like to apologize for being impolite on the last call with you. It's not right, and hope you accept my apologies.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So with respect to Gigafactory CapEx, I think we learned a tremendous amount with Gigafactory 1, and we're confident that we can do the Gigafactory in China for a lot less. I think it's probably closer to – this is just a guess, but probably closer to $2 billion, and that should be at a higher – and that would be sort of at the 250,000 vehicle per year rate. So I think we can be a lot more efficient with CapEx, and that would include at least a factory module and pack production, body shop, paint shop and general assembly. Might even be less than that, but that's about the right number for that. And then cell production is something we're still figuring out with respect to the Shanghai factory. JB, would you like to add to that?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I'd agree with all that. We found a surprising number of ways to improve efficiency and speed and density as well at Gigafactory 1, and all those lessons will absolutely be shared with Gigafactory 3. The teams are already of course beginning to collaborate and start to figure out ways to do this more efficiently and with less CapEx than last time. Yeah.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I think, we – like less than half is like would be a good estimate. And maybe a lot less than half, but not more than half, would be a fair estimate for CapEx to get to that 250,000 level. So it's just – we just learned a tremendous amount about manufacturing, it's like – it's definitely burned out a lot of neurons, yeah, mental scar tissue, it's like next level, but on the plus side we really know a lot about volume manufacturing at this point.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean, there are so many specific examples, but even in just recent weeks and months, we found some – certain areas of production that have been very capital intensive that we've been able to speed up with almost no additional CapEx by maybe 20%, even 25% or 30%.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, kind of crazy. Including on the cell – including the cell production.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, just by challenging some of the initial assumptions, the specifications, tweaking the controls and software.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Look, what really matters, what actually doesn't matter, things we think matter, and some of it actually ends up not mattering at all.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
And that's with basically zero CapEx.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Yes.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
So as you start to add very tactical, strategic CapEx to the existing lines, that's how we can get to something close to double or beyond with a really, really small increment.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, obviously one of the keys to success on the Model 3 production was the GA4 thing, which was led by Jerome. And General Assembly is key, and doing the sort of zone one, two, semiauto lines, which were critical because we had this fundamental failure especially in zone one – zone two of factory module production. Thank you, Jerome. It turns out Jerome was pulling some pretty incredible rabbits out of the hat. That was amazing.
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And people make fun of (33:28) our tent, but by the way our tent is amazing and this is not like – when people like say tent, they'll think it's like some sort of – something made by REI to go camping. This is a tent that is actually commonly used as a permanent structure. It's a giant thing that is very commonly used as a permanent structure and we just had to come up with a creative solution because GA3 was not going to be able to make the rate and so we had to come up with some ideas, and tell people how that all transpired. It's interesting, if you want to...
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, thank you. It was a fun project actually.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
So not only was it producing good results, but a lot of people contributed from different engineering groups and had a lot of fun in the process. We set out...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
(34:26) some of the people (34:28). It's cool. It's great. It is like (34:30) this is really satisfying about building a car.
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
We just wanted to create an assembly line that would be very easy and very straightforward. So, it's a straight line. Very simple. Car enters at one point and it's finished at the other end. Very simple access on all sides. Very simple tooling that we reused for most of – actually, nearly all of it is systems and tools that we discarded from previous SNX or for Model 3.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Especially Model 3. Like it was probably we had two weeks to solve this problem, which is like quasi impossible. So, we actually didn't have time to order new equipment, because it would have taken too long to arrive. So, we took the conveyors that we'd discarded from the GA3 line, which didn't work or was way too complex to actually do our products. (35:31)
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
And we amplified, repurposed them, make them sturdy for what was needed. And...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, I think like the really cool idea was putting them on the 1% grade. So it's like technically the conveyors for parts delivery to GA3 were not graded to be able to move something as heavy as a car, so we made it downhill and on a 1%-downward grade with the car at the top. So then, you can actually overcome the transport...
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
Gravity helped.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, gravity. So, basically, even on your slides, you can do – accomplish a lot.
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, it's pushing the car.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly.
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
No. And something that I'm particularly happy about is that we installed the quality team at the end of the line and we wanted to have at least as high standards on this new line as in the other one, because it is so simple and straightforward, they can run very quickly to any point in the line if there is any potential concern and address very quickly. There is no maze to move around or identify where something happened. And the quality of the cars that come out of this structure is at least as good and we make all the performance cars on this particular line and they seem to be doing quite well. So, this is a very pleasant surprise and the associates seems to be very happy and engaged in that particular area. So, this may be a model of how we may want to start general assembly for future vehicles, at least start and we can always add further automation and complexity.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And something that's like somewhat counterintuitive is that this actually has fully considered fewer labor hours per car than the GA3 system. And just to elaborate on what Jerome was saying, where we have parts delivery to GA4, the truck literally just backs up to the side of the line, where there is like a door in the tent. And then, that is used to unload parts from suppliers directly to where they are needed on the line. So there's no intermediate assistant. Whereas for GA3, they're unloaded, they're put in a warehouse, then they're repackaged from the warehouse into these totes, which we actually have 220 people, something like that, across all shifts whose only job it was to repackage parts from the boxes that came in from suppliers to the boxes – to these totes that go into the lifters that go up into GA3. That's literally all they do is move things from one box to another box, and we don't need that at all on GA4.
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
All gone.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
All gone, yeah. And there's a tremendous amount of 24/7 robotics technicians that are constantly trying to make the machines have uptime. That's very expensive and that's where we figured like not having to maintain all these robotic systems, that's a big cost savings as well. And now we're going to be gradually adding simple automation into GA4 to make it easier to build a car and better sort of labor saving devices, but it's just fundamentally – it's already at an efficiency level greater than GA3, which is pretty impressive.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Joe, do you have a follow-up question?
Operator:
Our next question comes from James Albertine with Consumer Edge.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Good afternoon, and thank you for taking my question. And appreciate all the color you've been providing, wanted to dig a little bit deeper, though, in terms of capital spending plans. Considering your growth you've identified in China with the Model Y, we believe also in the EU, it's been discussed about a factory there. How do you plan to fund all of this growth without going back to the capital markets to raise funds? And can you verify for us whether or not there is a notice from a regulator that would prevent you from raising outside capital? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We do not – we will not be raising any equity at any point, at least that's – I have no expectation of doing so, do not plan to do so. For China, I think, our default plan will be to use essentially a loan from the local banks in China and fund the Gigafactory in Shanghai with local debt, essentially. And we certainly could raise money, but I think we don't need to and we – yeah, I think, it's better to – it is better discipline not to.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, we're executing on an operating plan that keeps us sufficiently self-funded despite our CapEx needs and our debts maturing, and still keep a very healthy balance on our balance sheet.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, our default plan is we pay – we start paying off our debts. I don't mean refi-ing them, I mean paying them off. For example, there's a convert that's coming due soon, a couple hundred million, (42:13) $900 million, (41:28) something like that. We expect to pay that off with internally generated cash flow.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And still be – still have a healthy cash balance.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Todd A. Maron - Tesla, Inc.:
And to answer the other question, there is no such notice from a regulator.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I'm not sure what you're talking about, but there is no such notice from a regulator.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Very good. Thank you very much.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from George Galliers with Evercore.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Hi, George. Are you on the line? Okay. Let's go to the next one.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Hey, everybody. First, there's so much love and respect for colleagues and Wall Street analysts on this call, it's almost – it is lifting my spirits. What can I say? I got two questions. The first is for the Autopilot team. There's an argument that a fully autonomous car is essentially like a terminator that is programmed to save lives in highly complex terrestrial environments and that this same technology with a few tweaks have some pretty obvious military capability. Do you see any risk that U.S. companies will ultimately not be allowed to operate weapons grade AI-based technology in a market like China and vice versa?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, this has never come up. I wouldn't call it weapons grade. It's just like the car is trying to drive and if anything, the autonomous cars will be pretty easy to bully because they'll be optimizing so much for avoiding collision. So that'll be more of a challenge than anything else is as soon as somebody sees that the car's autonomous, they know they can like cut them off and the car is going to do everything it can avoid a collision. So it's like that'll actually be probably a bigger challenge than anything else, but we've not encountered anything of the nature of what you're saying.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
So you don't see autonomous cars as a potential germination or training grounds for things that would have a national security or military interest? Okay. Maybe a follow-up, Elon, and my last question, who do you think would be a more formidable competitor over time, BMW or Amazon?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
For Tesla?
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
For Tesla.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I don't think either of them are likely to be. As far as I know, I'm going to be pretty shocked if Amazon got into the car business, but I think BMW has great engineering. And it's good to see that they're making some investments in electrification. Hopefully, they do more of that. And I'm not sure where they stand on autonomy. It's not on our radar from an autonomy standpoint.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Thanks a lot.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Pierre Ferragu with New Street Research.
Pierre C. Ferragu - New Street Research LLP (US):
Thank you for having me on. So I wanted to make sure we understand well how you stop burning cash going forward, in coming quarters. And my understanding is that an important moving part here, probably the most important one is a positive impact of the ramp of the Model 3 on your working capital. And so I did some quick math on the quarter and I see your favorables increased by $430 million, while your risk level didn't move much which makes sense because you get paid on the spot and you pay your suppliers only on a 60 day notice or more. And so if I divide that by the number of incremental cars you've been producing in the quarter, I get to $23,000 per car. And of course my question is whether this is a good way to think about it, which means that going forward when we move into Q3 and Q4 every additional car, every additional Model 3 you're going to produce you're going to bump up payables by something in the region of $20,000 and that's going to be the main driver getting you to breakeven and to stop burning cash.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Deepak here. I mean, there are many factors. Clearly, the working capital benefit of the difference in the payable terms versus collecting cash is one of them. But also, it's our gross margin improvement on the business. With the – it's the higher volumes and the higher gross margins, I'm thinking higher gross profit, I'm stating the obvious here on Model 3. Our SNX volumes are increasing too in the second half. That's going to help us significantly. And all of our other businesses are improving their profitability. While our OpEx is staying essentially flat, so massive leverage in the business. So when you combine all of that, that's what is giving us the cash flow from operations to fund the rest of our business and grow cash. I'm stating the obvious, but just sort of summarizing the whole point. Yeah.
Pierre C. Ferragu - New Street Research LLP (US):
In terms of follow-up on EP – sorry. Go ahead.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sorry. What was your question?
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Sorry, can you repeat the follow-up? Sorry Pierre, can you repeat the follow-up?
Pierre C. Ferragu - New Street Research LLP (US):
My follow-up was on in terms of order of magnitude, does like $20,000 per car of payables boost over a 60-day period, does that sound like something that makes sense or am I missing other moving part?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
It's rough order of magnitude correct, yeah.
Pierre C. Ferragu - New Street Research LLP (US):
Excellent. Thank you.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Romit Shah with Nomura Instinet.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Securities International:
Yes. Thanks very much. I guess my question is for the Autopilot team. We've been looking forward to this fully autonomous coast-to-coast drive and, Elon, I think you sort of said on previous calls if I can paraphrase that the team has been focused on developing a full self-driving suite that would work basically on all different kinds of road conditions. And I'm just curious, what's holding back that capability today to go coast to coast? And are we closer now that you've strengthened the compute technology?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, we can do a coast to coast drive, especially if we – like if we pick a specific route and then write code to really make that route work, we could do a coast to coast route drive, but that would be kind of gaming the system. And I think it's really important for the autopilot team to be focused on fundamental safety of the existing features. So that's – the focus is really massively on safety of existing features. Then there's an advanced dev role that can do things like recognize traffic lights and stop signs and make hard right turns and that kind of thing, but it's not at the safety level that's considered okay for release. So that – yeah, because it really, you want many lines of reliability for anything that's released to end customers. So I don't want to take the team off that until we feel like we've really got everything as best we can for the core functionality. Stuart, you want to add to that?
Stuart Bowers - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I mean, I think the big thing I would say is to reiterate Elon's point. There's no question you can kind of build a demo around this stuff. The challenge right now for the team is just increasing the safety and utility of autopilot to over 250,000 cars we have today and pushing more out after that. So I think when we look forward to what the next probably 6 to 12 months look like, it's taking those same kind of features we've been working on, probably deploying them in the form of active safety features. That's like a thing we can do already to understand like – use this rich understanding of the environment to actually try to keep you safer, to either beep or brake. And then also, of course like one huge advantage that we have is we can understand what humans actually did in these vehicles and test our software to make sure that we would have made decisions that were similar if not safer. So that's going to be a huge part of what we do over the next probably two quarters.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, that said, we might be able to pull off coast-to-coast demo before the end of the year if we – but really like right now Subaru (50:51) has not focused on the version 9 software release which has got a number of really cool things in it. And we're hoping to get that out to early access program in about four weeks and then broadly in September. That's the hardcore focus right now, and that will certainly include some significant advancements in autonomy. And then once that's out and stable, I think that could be a good time to work on the coast-to-coast drive.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Securities International:
I don't know if you guys have shared what attach rates are for autopilot. And just as my follow up, I guess I'm curious what you can do to increase the number of cars that have that functionality. It would seem like the effects of auto margins and cash flows could be pretty positive.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I think it's extremely powerful once people are comfortable using the technology and see just how much utility it brings. I think that is a very significant potential for margin gain in the future, but it's contingent on that functionality really making a difference. I think we will really start to see some of the breakthrough stuff in about a month or so.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Let's go to the next question.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Securities International:
Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from John Murphy with Bank of America.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Good afternoon. Just a first question. Is it fair to assume the GA4 in the tent is now essentially permanent? And if so, is this potentially a new model for capacity and capacity additions that might be much more capital efficient over time?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
What do you think, Jerome (52:44)?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
It's permanent for now until we come up with something different or better, but personally, I think it's a good model to start assembly of any product. Gives a lot of flexibility, and then we can build and iterate over it. Yeah.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Like, necessity is the mother of invention, and when you have to do something quickly, then you just don't have time to spend a lot of capital. So it forces you to be capital efficient.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, it's taught us a lot of lessons on how to be capital efficient in the general assembly area. And so, in that sense, those lessons will carry forward, John.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I think so, it's still by and large we'll be aiming for steel-frame buildings to be clear. It's not like (53:35) just become tents everywhere. Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean the tent itself might be a little bit of a distraction from actually the focus of what's happening inside. And then the methodology...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Exactly.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
And that's a similar methodology that we've kind of reverted back to and then moved forward from in the module, where we simplified and then did a very, very linear intuitive process that was a bit more manual and then have automated and scaled that up as we understand it and get good control of it. And I think that's a lesson that we're taking to heart broadly across other things that we're going to do in the future and it's an efficient way to scale up.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
I mean, is that replication of that simplicity why you think Shanghai could be that much less costly and that then Model Y capacity might be that much less costly to add?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, Model Y is sort of a whole separate thing but it's definitely one of the elements that convinced us that we can scale up quickly and at low CapEx in Shanghai, where we do an improved version of GA4. And then, we're also figuring out how to make the paint shop a lot simpler and general assembly a lot simpler. And after this call, I'm headed back out to the...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Body shop.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
The body shop and making the body shop a lot simpler.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Making it a lot simpler.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, we can really simplify the body shop, man. Wow. And there's a lot that we can really easily improve like design to manufacturing and changing some of the joining approaches that we use and actually making the car lighter, cheaper and better and actually stabler. Yeah, it's really, (55:20) safe already, but yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Maybe one other point, just to follow up quickly. I think some people have taken this as like a walk back from automation, which is not really accurate.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
This is basically, I mean, a more thoughtful and focused way to apply automation to the actual issues that matter most.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. That's well said. Actually, it's really worth emphasizing JB's point here. Yeah. We're seeing a gain.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, it's not an overall reduction in automation. It is a focusing of our efforts automating the processes and the value-add processes that matter the most and I think we got maybe a little bit distracted on this first round automating a lot of things that added complexity that didn't necessarily speed up. And...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Way too fancy.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
And we can save...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Start simple and get fancy later. Fancy's going to bite you in the ass.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
But it's not like we're referring to the dark ages of all manual everything. That's not at all the case.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I mean, Gigafactory is ...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Massively automated.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Massively automated. It's pretty crazy. And the body production is also heavily automated, almost entirely robots. So it's a mixture of people and automation. There's so much that goes into producing a car going from raw metal and plastic and glass to an actual finished car. And, yeah, as JB was saying, the vast majority of that is highly automated.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay. If I can sneak in one quick follow-up? I mean, when we look at the grosses on the Model 3, you're saying 15% in 3Q, 20% in 4Q and I think the ultimate target is 25%. I mean, what are the average transaction prices you guys are assuming? I mean, it sounds like they are going to be bit higher earlier but is that 25% gross ultimately still built around the low-40,000 ATP?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
The simple answer is yes.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
It'll be lower ASPs than what we have today, clearly, and we are having a richer mix of All-Wheel Drive, as Elon alluded to earlier, so that's going to help, but yeah. 25% is still the target that we have ahead of us.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I'm highly confident that it may not be Q1 but I would be shocked if it's not Q2 that we get to 25%.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Great. Thank you very much.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Alex Haissl with Berenberg.
Alexander Haissl - Joh. Berenberg, Gossler & Co. KG (United Kingdom):
Good evening, everyone, and thanks for taking the question. I would like to come back to the point made on the manufacturing efficiencies. I mean, (58:10) two main challenges for Tesla but also for the rest of the industry is the manufacturing parts, which has been overcome by a lot of companies already, with the second one being the technology part. My question is how would you describe the learning curve of the manufacturing process versus technology and what is really the pace of advancement you're making? Because it looks like on the manufacturing side the curve maybe has meaningfully accelerated here. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, I don't really know actually how others do it to be totally frank. I just know that the way we – I see the way we are doing it and I'm told that this is how others do it and we're able to find ways to make it much better. I don't know what the delta would be though.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
We also don't really I think differentiate it quite the way maybe you're implying. I mean, technology and manufacturing are sort of one and the same in many cases and we're treating a lot of the manufacturing problems as a technology problem.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Exactly.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
And applying our design teams, our technology teams, if you want to call them that, to solving those issues. So I think the learning curves in some ways are quite similar.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. In fact, it's amazing how much of production is actually software. We're really quite good at software relative to other car companies and manufacturing at volume is mostly a software problem. I think that was not well appreciated.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I think maybe one other lesson learned is that it's obviously not the best approach or best efficiency to outsource some of that development.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Some of the areas that we struggled the most through the Model 3 ramp were those where we had perhaps less visibility, and less control, and less direct kind of skin in the game on how those production lines were designed and built.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And these are cases where we took – we engaged with companies that were supposed to be world class experts in automotive production and we just assumed that they would do stuff that worked but it didn't.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
So that learning curve often involves Tesla coming directly in, understanding the process intimately, simplifying it, and then essentially doing our own design or changes to the lines that were built. I think that's a key learning point that we've taken and I think the way that we can do this a lot more efficiently in the future is doing that approach from the start.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Just having that very rapid iteration between design and production is incredibly helpful and we understand for example, what are the rate limiters, what makes it hard to produce battery modules. We came up with a new design that achieves the same outcome, that's actually lighter, better, cheaper and will be introducing that around the end of this year, probably reach volume production on that in Q1 or something. That will make the car lighter, better, and cheaper and achieve a higher range. That line is under construction, will be active in about six months.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
We did this somewhat the first time around but now there's I think even more exciting understanding of the value of having those – as Elon said, having the design engineers just working intimately with automation and line engineers, simplifying the process as they're designing the product.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I mean, because we're sort of desperate to try to get the production working, we actually took a design engineering team and had them work in the factory and improve it, work on production and it's given them tremendous insight into how they need to change the designs in the future to make it easier to produce because you feel the pain directly. Once you feel the pain, like okay, didn't realize I was torturing people with my terrible design. Now I know.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Great. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Ben Kallo with Baird.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
Elon, (1:02:44) sunglasses.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Hello.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
Douglas Adams. Can we do more Douglas Adams.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
And less everything else.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. He is one of my favorite authors.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
And mine too. Deepak, so after July here, how close are you to cash flow positive?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
So your question is after July, how close are we to cash flow positive?
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
Yeah, you have July under the books here, so how close are you to cash flow positive?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, well, we don't have let me tell this point, one, we don't have July results done but it doesn't matter exactly where we are in the month of July. What really matters is over the quarter because it depends on deliveries, depends on production, many factors. So we will be significantly cash flow positive for the quarter. I think that's what really matters.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And like the logic question is like do we have like a low balance in the bank? The answer is no, we've got – we're in no – we're not in any kind of cash shortage at all.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, that's a simple answer.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Are we running low on money? The answer is no.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
No, no, no. That's not the question. It's just as you're here and you have – you're selling your higher priced cars for better margin, how's the third quarter look for what you said, for being cash flow positive?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I'd say highly confident of being cash flow positive and being GAAP profitable in Q3.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
We're sitting here today saying that based on what our expectation is. So yes, sitting here on August 1.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Is there anything we know at the end of July, it's one month in, we're highly confident of being cash flow positive and GAAP profitable in Q3 and Q4. Now there could be force majeure like earthquake, touch wood, but something like that or massive recession all of a sudden, but in the absence of that, of really unusual...
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Straightforward.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Macro events, yeah.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
Thanks, guys.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Great. Thank you very much. Let's go to a journalist question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Tim Higgins with Wall Street Journal.
Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal:
Hi. Thanks for the call. Question for you. Do you still plan to make a total of 1 million vehicles in the calendar year of 2020?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think so, yeah. If it's not a million, it's going to be pretty close. I'd say if it's not a million it'd probably be 750,000 or something like that in 2020. So, we're aiming for a million, 2020, but somewhere between half million and a million seems pretty likely.
Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal:
Where do you get the capacity to do that?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
There's this place called Shanghai.
Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal:
Okay. Shanghai will be important for that, that goal?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal:
Okay. Where does the Model Y...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I think so. Yeah, I think we can do over half a million vehicles – actually probably more like 600,000 vehicles with current Giga and Fremont, and so they could throw 100,000, 200,000, maybe more, couple hundred thousand from Shanghai. We're probably going to be more than 600,000 with Fremont and Giga, Nevada. That's why I think maybe it's not – I think we have a shot at a million but somewhere 700,000, 800,000 seems pretty likely given the current what we know today.
Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal:
Have you made any decisions on where you're going to make the Model Y, anyway you'd like to tell me?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Not yet.
Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal:
Do you expect to announce it this year though?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Maybe. Maybe.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Cool. Let's go to the next question, please.
Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal:
Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I should say we are hoping to identify a Gigafactory location in Europe before the end of this year. It's not for sure but we are hoping to do that before the end of the year.
Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal:
Got you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Zachary Shahan with CleanTechnica.
Zachary Shahan - CleanTechnica:
Hello. First of all, thanks for the recent retweet, Elon. I was really impressed with the Model 3 after owning a Model S, so I'm really impressed how much you've developed since the early days. My first question was about Conquest sales, actually. Right before the call we published an article that Camry sales were down 22% year-over-year, Prius sales were down 23% year-over-year and we're very curious how much you're pulling from these other cars, other segments. It sounds like you sort of answered that question at the beginning, but can you give anything in terms of what percentage those top five are in terms of trade-in sales? And how broad you're pulling? I know you pull from pickup trucks, from sports cars. Can you speak a little more about the diversity you're pulling from?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Actually, what we have right now is just the top five. So I'm not sure what the allocation is between top five or where it goes beyond top five. We just sort of out of curiosity asked for the top five breakdown. And it's just interesting that people are trading up into a Tesla, so they're choosing to spend more money on a Tesla than their current car, just based on the trade-in values. A Civic is a very inexpensive car compared to particularly the Model 3 today. So that's promising from a market access standpoint. But of course, long term, we're going to do the Model Y and compact SUV. We're going to do the pickup truck, the Semi, the next generation bus (1:09:38). We got lots of awesome ideas, and probably the biggest limiter on our growth is like how fast can we grow battery production? And especially cell production and the wholesale supply chain I think will be the fundamental determinant of Tesla's growth.
Zachary Shahan - CleanTechnica:
And regarding the...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We're super fired up to do the set. I think they're all super cool. I know Jerome's favorite is the Semi, and that's pretty wicked, obviously. And...
Zachary Shahan - CleanTechnica:
I love it.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, it's great. And the where we unveiled – we've actually figured – we've made significant improvements to the design since the unveiling that we had, and it's really even better than what we talked about. Probably my personal favorite for the next product is pickup truck, and we are going to just do an amazing pickup truck. And the Model Y, compact SUV, probably the most popular car category in the world, so that's like obviously going to sell pretty well. So a lot of cool things. And of course, Tesla Energy, getting the – we're kind of cell starved for Powerwall right now, so we actually had to artificially limit the number of Powerwalls because we don't have enough cells. So we're solving for that very rapidly and we expect to ramp up Powerwall and Powerpack production substantially later this year and early next and as well as ramping up retrofit solar and then the Solar Roof. We now have several hundred homes with the Solar Roof on them, and that's going well. It takes a while to just confirm that the Solar Roof is going to last for 30 years and all the details work out, and we're working with first responders to make sure it's safe in the event of a fire and that kind of thing. So it's quite a long validation program for a roof which has got to last for 30, 40, 50 years, but we also expect to ramp that up next year at our Gigafactory 2 in Buffalo. That's going to be super exciting. If there's a company with a better product roadmap, I'd like to know where it is, because we've got some super awesome stuff coming. Yeah.
Zachary Shahan - CleanTechnica:
And regarding the Model Y, there's been a lot of questioning if you're going to have the same process as with Model 3 with reservations, if you're going to shorten the reservation timeline or if you're going to have a different process this time around.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We haven't made a final decision on that.
Zachary Shahan - CleanTechnica:
So a last question then. Regarding the daily production, we've been seeing a rise and fall with the daily production of the Model 3 as you incorporate new performance or white seats. Can you speak at all – we always like to get the technical side of what you're doing there. Can you speak at all about what the bottlenecks are right now that you're working through and what we can sort of – how we can picture ourselves in the factory there with you?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. And actually one of the things I love about your writing is that you really care about getting the details right, and you really understand things well, which is awesome. But I have to be careful I don't have a sound bite that is then for those that don't have a nuanced appreciation of the situation, that sound bite then gets – becomes front page news. So it's like, nope, that's not what I meant.
Zachary Shahan - CleanTechnica:
Yeah. We know.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh, man, this is like shooting myself in the foot there. Right now, the biggest constraint on production again, please, do not make a federal case out of this, because it's something that's solved like in a matter of a week or two, is body production. So that's why – you can generally tell what am I personally working on, that's going to be the bottleneck in the company most likely, so reducing Model 3 bodies. We've made huge progress in the last few weeks and in fact I was just told that we were able to achieve our first 24 hour period where we made over 800 Model 3 bodies which is pretty great. So (1:14:34) sustain that 800 plus per day rate and then (1:14:41) doing great, Jay (1:14:41) is doing great. Yeah, it's good.
Zachary Shahan - CleanTechnica:
Yeah. I've got 47 questions. But I'll end with a quick request. Years ago you...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sorry. Go ahead.
Zachary Shahan - CleanTechnica:
Years ago you warned about a coming short tsunami and it seemed obvious it was coming, but the shorts didn't really seem to recognize it and then sort of attacked you, trolled you for months and then finally, it came. You again, warned very honestly, I think very directly, that there's going to be an epic short squeeze. We have I think the whole community has a little request. Don't let the trolls get you down, don't see the trolls too much, but we do like it when you tease the trolls a bit. So use your judgment. But thanks a lot for what you're doing.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Well, thank you for your in-depth coverage of clean-energy technology.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you very much and the very last question comes from Galileo Russell (01:15:44) who represents the retail shareholders.
Unknown Speaker:
Congrats on an awesome quarter. Really proud to be a Tesla shareholder with the Model 3 ramping to 5,000 a week. And I think you may have touched on this but I'm curious. Will Tesla ever produce vehicles at Gigafactory 1, maybe the Semi? And then I'm curious on any manufacturing synergies between the Semi and the Model 3.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Oh wow. Interesting questions. You always come up with really interesting questions. Really interesting questions that I cannot actually – the first one I cannot – it gets so much attention, where we put production. So I can't answer any like where we're going to put production questions. Will the Semi use a bunch of Model 3 technology? The answer is yes. Jerome don't know if you want to elaborate on that or – up to you.
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, I mean you can already see in the prototype that we've leverage a lot of the Model 3 components, the screens...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
...the door handles. I mean as much as possible...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
The motors.
Jerome Guillen - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, the motors, yeah, in the prototype, a lot of the cell technology. But there are some changes and I'd rather not make that public. Yeah, obviously it's going to be better than what we showed last year. There is a lot of improvements, yeah.
Unknown Speaker:
Okay. So hopefully you can talk more about this with the battery project, with PG&E that was recently announced. I'm wondering if you could elaborate how you're prioritizing battery pack between auto and energy storage. Because it seems like you ramped auto battery pack to 20 gigawatt hours in the past 12 months, but are only guiding for about 1 gigawatt hour of Tesla Energy installation in the next year. So I'm wondering why is Tesla Energy, given its supply constraint, like why not ramp up supply to 10 gigawatts? It seems like the guidance is a little low there.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, as Elon suggested earlier, we are – essentially makes sense for us to prioritize Model 3, but we are adding a ton of capacity, cell capacity and JB can talk more about it that will enable us to dramatically ramp our energy storage business as well in the coming quarters.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, you kind of mentioned only 1 gigawatt hour. But that's a big number in that business. And that's maybe on the order of 300% what we did the prior year and we're still aiming at maybe another 3x to 4x growth for 2019.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
These are mad – at scale, these are insane growth levels.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Crazy growth rate.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, It's not like shipping a software. This is like you actually need to build – it's like a lot of atoms...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
No offence to software.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, no, no, I mean like once you build software, you can obviously have lots of copies, but like when it's like a lot of really complicated atoms, man, hard.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Maybe specifically also your cell – to the cell-limitation question. I think this has been mentioned before but we also do use some other vendors.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Oh, yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
(1:18:50) Panasonic.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. We use Samsung and LG and yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly, in our energy products. So I've heard people feel like this is kind of a zero-sum game or something with Model 3 but that is not the case. And we do...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's a partial-sum game. We did shut down a Powerwall cell line in favor of Model 3 to be totally honest but we kind of had to do that. But we're adding new cell lines and we'll be able to address that issue very soon.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
I think to put it in perspective, we are soon tripling our storage.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
These are mad growth numbers. Mad.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And it's one thing to produce, but it's also another thing to install.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
You need infrastructure and the people to do that. So, it's massive scaling as very few companies grow at that rate.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, and one of the biggest challenges like, we've got a – there needs to be a lot more electricians. So we actually had an electrician training program. We're going to actually have to train new people who've never been electricians before to be electricians because otherwise there's not enough electrician capacity in the United States and the most places in the world to install Powerwalls.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So it's like we have to actually literally train electricians and it takes like two years basically before somebody is certified to be an electrician. So it's sort of like, okay, we obviously can't grow faster than the rates, the number of electricians who can physically install a Powerwall. That's like one of the limitations.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
And that PG&E project you mentioned is an incredibly exciting one. It kind of is indicative...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, it's awesome actually.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
...of the growth rate. It has a...
Unknown Speaker:
Yeah, can you elaborate on that?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
We can't say too much.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I hope I haven't said anything that's like (1:20:31).
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
It is over 1 gigawatt hour.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, gigawatt hour. That's public, right?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Fully considered.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
It is now.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. All right, okay.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
And just to give you a sense, it took us five years of growing that business to get to 1 gigawatt hour, cumulative deployed.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And there were like so many people who had said 1 gigawatt hour is an impossible number for lithium ion. Like that's – yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean, the car business is still much bigger as we sit here today but the growth rate on energy is faster.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, if you extrapolate energy growth rate, well, obviously, if you extrapolate anything, when that triples for a year pretty soon becomes the size of the universe, but long-term we would expect the energy business to catch up to the auto business in size.
Unknown Speaker:
Nice. And then, lastly, I'm really curious, Elon. Do you have any part of the business that shareholders should be asking or thinking more about? Or what do you wish would have been asked on the call?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Good question. We were trying to anticipate – actually, I try and anticipate the questions that are on people's minds, that's why we have the autopilot (1:21:40) autopilot team here and much of the executive team of Tesla here to try to be proactive in that regard. And is there anything...
Unknown Speaker:
Well, I guess, in terms of...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think we really covered a lot. So if there's any – yeah.
Unknown Speaker:
Just very last thing.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Your very last thing. Go ahead.
Unknown Speaker:
Yeah, sorry. One last thing. The new fiscal engineering strategy of profits and cash flow and you saying that would last in perpetuity sort of caught me by surprise, personally. And so I'm curious if there's any trade-off to growth with that new strategy or sort of what's the rationale behind the scenes because this seems like the biggest change in Tesla's financial engineering strategy since the IPO.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, being cash flow positive and capping at positive doesn't mean like – doesn't mean we're rolling in money. There's definitely going to be cases where we're just barely cash flow positive or barely profitable in some quarters in the future. But I think it's been a long time, almost 15 years now. I think we're at a scale where the amount of time that it takes to actually scale up and do things is – there's a certain – like we're big enough, where we actually can spend money efficiently to make things go faster. So we kind of hit scale with volume production of cars. And I think we can – I think this is probably the right thing to do is to be sort of essentially self-funding on a go forward basis and apart from selective situations where there's say some debt – temporary debt for construction of a Gigafactory in China or Europe or something like that. But apart from that, I think we – essentially like I don't think we're constraining growth in any significant way by adopting this strategy at this point. It would have been true in times past, but I think it is no longer the case, yeah.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay, I think that's going to be all the time...
Unknown Speaker:
Awesome. Thank you so much.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you very much. Unfortunately, that's I think all the time we have today. Appreciate all your questions and looking forward to speaking to you next quarter.
Operator:
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in today's conference. This does conclude the program. You may all disconnect, and have a wonderful day.
Executives:
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc. Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc. Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc. Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc. Doug Field - Tesla, Inc. Robin Ren - Tesla, Inc.
Analysts:
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc. Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc. Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC Phil LeBeau - CNBC LLC James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla Q1 2018 Financial Results and Q&A and Webcast Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session, and instructions will follow at that time. As a reminder, this conference may be recorded. I would now like to introduce your host for today's call, Mr. Martin Viecha, Senior Director of Investor Relations. Sir, you may begin.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you, Sherry, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's first quarter 2018 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, JB Straubel, Deepak Ahuja and Doug Field. Our Q1 results were announced at about 1 PM Pacific Time in the update letter we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Before jumping into Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think our letter says most of it, but I think we're going to spend extra time on Q&A and try to answer as many questions as possible. I think we should be able to answer, so we're going to go as long as there are good questions to answer. The thing I'm most excited about is the rapid increase in output. We got just in the last 24 hours at the Gigafactory managed to achieve a sustained rate of over 3,000 packs per day – sorry, per week, and actually reached a peak hour with extrapolated outward would be a rate of about 5,000 cars per week. Obviously, you cannot take a peek hour and assume every hour is as good as peak, but if you can achieve it even once in an hour then with continued refinements of the system and improved operational uptime of the machinery, it means that you can achieve that sustained rate with more refinement. So, you spend essentially a month or two improving the operational uptime and the system as a whole will be able to do well over 5,000 I think. I mean, what's interesting is that at least in the case of pack production we were able to do this with minimal CapEx. And I think, in general, our understanding of production is improving dramatically, exponentially in fact, and we are seeing ways to achieve improved volume with dramatically less CapEx by simplifying production line, by really engaging all of our associates no matter how junior in improving the way that parts are made. It's amazing how everybody's got good ideas, just needs to solicit those ideas and implement them, and then making ongoing design improvements so that when we discover that something is not well designed for manufacturing that we very quickly change that part design and introduce that into the flow. One more thing that we've also found is that there are some things that are very well suited to manual operation and some things that are very well suited to automated operation, and the two should not be confused. So, I should be clear that the vast majority of the Tesla production system is automated. However, as I've mentioned in a tweet a few months ago, we did go too far on the automation front and automated some pretty silly things. One example would be, we have this – this is sort of ironically foolish – we had these fiberglass mats on the top of the battery pack. They're basically fluff. So, we tried to automate the placement and bonding of fluff to the top of the battery pack, which is ridiculous. So, we had fluffer bot, which was really an incredibly difficult machine to make work. Machines are not good at picking up pieces of fluff. Human hands are way better at doing that. And so, we had a super complicated machine using a vision system to try to put a piece of fluff on the battery pack. One of the questions I asked was, do we actually need that? So, we tested a car with and without and found out that there was no change in the noise volume in the cabin. So, we actually had a part that was unnecessary. That was forced – line kept breaking down because fluffer bot would frequently just failed to pick up the fluff while put it in, like, a random location. So that was one of the silliest things I found. And this still remains to be fixed in a lot of cases, but we're over-generalizing the design. So, for example, the car battery pack has a port for the front drive unit, which we then put a sealed blanking plate on. So essentially we punched a hole in it, then put a blanking plate over the hole and do that for all rear-drive unit cars, which is kind of crazy. We've added cost, we've added a manufacturing step, we've added a failure mode, and for something that is unnecessary. So, that is an example of something that's changed. And the net result is we've had a radical improvement in production. Battery pack production went from taking seven hours to make a pack three weeks ago to under 70 (07:29) minutes now. So it's just show that, like, really radical improvements are indeed possible. We also saw enormous improvement in zone four of module production. This, I should point out, is a fully automated zone, and we're able to also achieve sustained rates of 3,000 vehicles a week. So, we're actually slightly ahead in factory module and pack production than expected. And with some work at the Fremont vehicle plant, primarily in the general assembly area, I'm confident we will very soon exceed the 3,000 mark in Fremont. So, we're already there in the body shop, which is also almost entirely automated, where we weld up the body. They're already capable of over 3,000 cars a week. And then the general assembly with some improvements, which will include reduction some – I should say, temporary reduction in automation in a few places then we should be able with (8:53) 3,000. So basically I'm feeling really good about the Tesla production of Model 3, and I'm very proud of the work the team has done. There's been an amazing amount of hard work and sacrifice by some very talented people to achieve this outcome. It's worth noting the – you see a chart in the Model 3 market share versus competitors and mid-sized premium sedans. We are almost the best-selling sedan in the United States in this category as of April and we will certainly be there in May, unless something really odd – I mean, be there in May and then we're really be there later this year. In the third quarter – I mean I think there's a good chance Model 3 gets maybe close to majority market share of mid-sized premium sedans, 30% to 40% seems likely, and maybe a majority market share later this year. This is coming from outstanding start against a lot of established brands who have far more sales outlets than we do. So, this is very encouraging. Yeah, as the letter says, I'm feeling quite confident about achieving GAAP net income and positive cash flow in Q3. This is not a certainty, but it does appear quite likely in my view. We are going to conduct a sort of reorganization, restructuring of the company this month, and make sure we're well set up to achieve that goal. And in particular, the number of sort of third-party contracting companies that we're using has really gotten out of control, so we're going to scrub the barnacles on that front. It's pretty crazy. We've got barnacles on barnacles. So there's going to be a lot of barnacle removal. All right. You guys want to make any comments?
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you, Elon. Sherry, let's go to the first question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our first question comes from Brian Johnson with Barclays.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes. Good afternoon. I want to talk a little bit about, first of all, if we talk about the – it's sort of all related to the production ramp – if we talk about the 5,000 per week run rate, is that assuming 7/24? Or at what point do you think you get to sort of five-day two shift operation?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, this is what I think a five-day two shift operation is a ridiculous way to operate, because that would be a very poor use of CapEx, nor is it the way that we have operated for most of Tesla. So the module production, cell module and battery pack production and powertrain production have always operated on a 24/7 basis. And the exception has been general assembly, which is operated on typically two to three shifts, so a five to six day 20-hour shift, and paint which is operated on kind of a six-day basis. So, I think it makes sense to operate the whole company on the same basis, but a majority of Tesla production has operated on a 24/7 basis, since we started production.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I mean, this is JB. I can chime in. As Elon said, it really makes great use of the CapEx in the lines and that's why we did it starting way back at the beginning of S. But aligning everything to the same shift schedule make it so much more efficient, because we don't have the seesaw of inventory, inter-line inventory between the different shops, so.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly. One of the key things to improving capital efficiency of the system is reducing work in process and if you don't have – if the shifts are not aligned then you have to build up inventory in kind of a storage warehouse. And so, it's pretty foolish to actually operate on a five-day two-shift thing anyway. Yeah, but this is sort of a – we're using the chip fab approach to capital efficiency, so it's been called AWS, (14:49), it's called but like there's something called alternate work whatever.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Week.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Alternate workweek. Yeah, I think they're pretty cool, people work like three long days and then four long days alternately, something like that.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Multiple crews rather than just using overtime on weekends.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Right. So, it seems like just as a...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's not like one person working 24 hours a day, seven days a week. There are like four or five shifts.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yeah. So, if I just do the math that would seem at 5,000 to get you to takt time of two minutes. And I go back to some of the prior conversations, I mean, that's my understanding is best-in-class is sort of 50 seconds to a minute, and I thought the whole going faster than grandma walker was actually targeted at blowing past that. But it sounds like you're sort of 2X the takt time of other factories?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
The number you're referring to is actually the general assembly number.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Vehicles per minute.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's general assembly number, not other stuff, but...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
You may have also not taken into account so-called OEE, or the actual uptime of the line, which tends to make the takt time a little faster than the (16:15).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, like if Toyota say that (16:19) takes a minute then, I mean, it's like – over a 7-day, 24-hour workweek. Like we could also just say, like sure, we did a peak pack production today was 32 packs in an hour, so we're under two minutes a pack and rising from there.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, and the numbers go up rapidly as we go to the subassemblies that are in higher unit quantity per car.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
So 4X per module and then we have smaller subassemblies still that are factors of 10 or 20, even higher than that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. And with that said, I do believe that the path to manufacturing efficiency is velocity; velocity and density. And that is absolutely what we'd be working on rather than just trying to spend billions of dollars on duplicating a factory. Like, if two companies are competing and one has to double its CapEx in order to double production, and the other one can, with minor CapEx, can just speed up the line by double, it's a game over.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Right. But in the meantime, the lines – again I get (17:33) what you're saying some starts, some stops to get to the 5,000 per week?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, like you can't have like zero maintenance time and zero – you have to do equipment upgrades. You have to do ongoing maintenance, so you can't just have it be operating at peak rates 24/7.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Rod Lache with Deutsche Bank.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Hi, everybody. Just wanted to follow along on that line of questions. So to the extent that you're adding humans in certain automated processes, can you just help us interpret the extent to which these changes affect the economics on Model 3? And to the extent that you've done some competitive analysis, all of these efforts in the Tesla production system, how do you stack up competitively against other OEMs in terms of labor hours per vehicle or depreciation per vehicle?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, I'll say a few things, then I have – Deepak can elaborate. Let's see, so the thing that I've noticed is, if you have a really complicated machine like the fluff bot that I was talking about earlier, in order to keep it operating you have to have a ton of maintenance engineering. So, you have, like, basically pretty expensive maintenance engineers that have to maintain the thing and fix it, like, basically 7-days a week, 24 hours a day. The cost of the maintenance engineer may not be fully incorporated directly into gross margin, but is nonetheless a cost that far exceeds the labor cost of simply placing the fluff on the battery pack, which as I said that was unnecessary. So, I think that actually – I do not see this having a mature, long-term impacting our costs. I actually see most likely our costs will decrease. Fully considered costs of producing the vehicles will decrease by getting rid of production stations that are really poorly suited to robotics, because of the very expensive cost of robot technicians.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Rod, we are very CapEx-efficient, overall. Let me just start from that point. And if we look at our depreciation costs on a per unit basis at steady run rate of 5,000 or so cars per week, we are in my mind well below most of our competitors – well below $2,000 per unit depreciation cost. And then overall, clearly there is some impact, as we have indicated in the letter, from the additional labor we've added, but it's temporary. And our expectation fully is a lot of this labor will come out once we stabilize production and then figure out smart ways of automating where it makes sense.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. Thanks for that. And just secondly, your comments in your letter on the advances in batteries were interesting. Could you give us some insight into how we can translate that into cost per kilowatt hour? Or some metric in terms of the gains that you're making?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Every data point, Rod, that we look at internally suggests that we are best-in-class, but we don't prefer to...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We're best, which is not a class.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. We're the best. Sorry.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
The best-in-class of one.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I think directionally, Rod, it's helpful to understand the different commodities and the trends that we're pursuing in the batteries. Being on a path to reduce cobalt usage, for instance, has been something we've been working on for literally several years now, and this has been extremely helpful in the overall cost per kilowatt hour, especially with recent commodity price movements. So, we can't really be quantitative, but that directionally is a pretty good trend.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, we think we can get the cobalt to almost nothing.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. Great. Thank you.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you very much. Let's have the next question, please?
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Thanks. Elon, so you repeatedly said I think in recent weeks that you do not need to issue equity capital at Tesla, and I think many investors on this call would say it's better to raise capital when you don't need to. So I guess the first question is...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I disagree.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Yeah, you may not need to, but do you want to?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
No. I specifically don't want to.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Perfect. Okay. My follow-up, Elon, is your cars produce currently a large amount of data, and SpaceX gets into the satellite broadband business next year somewhat...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, ad hoc, yeah (23:16)
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Yeah. Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Not next year, but it's probably three years.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Okay. Three years.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Thank you for that. Some argue that SpaceX could offer Tesla a resilient cyber secure pipe for this precious vehicle data and a potential competitive advantage. So, Elon, isn't bandwidth an obvious domain for collaboration between Tesla and SpaceX one day?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean, it might be. There's lots of interesting things you could do. The cars got a lot of computing power, and it's connected to the cell networks and Wi-Fi and everything. And we could certainly connect it to LEO Internet constellation. I haven't thought about it, but probably you're right.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Thanks.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you. Let's go to the next question, please?
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from David Tamberrino with Goldman Sachs.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC:
Great. Thanks for taking my questions. Elon you talked about the downtime on the Model 3, you're going to take two planned periods this quarter, one has already occurred, the other is going to occur later in the quarter. What specifically have you addressed in Fremont so far? And what are you planning to address a little bit later? And are those the alone kind of remaining bottlenecks for you to get to the 5K within the Fremont plant?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, the Tesla production system at this point is fast, so and we literally have the two biggest factories on earth between the Gigafactory and Fremont. The Giga is still slightly smaller than Fremont, maybe just – yeah, size-wise (25:08), but it'll soon be bigger than Fremont. And Fremont is like the second biggest building of any kind by footprint. So, it is a vast – the full answer to that question is a complex one. I feel very confident about our ability to get to 5K very soon sustained rate at Giga, essentially getting to 5,000 battery packs and motors and power, inverters and chargers and that kind of thing sold down (25:46) at Giga by the end of next month. And body production, no problem, general assembly is probably our biggest risk, and I'm refocusing on personally on that a lot in the next – in the coming month. And then our paint shop is maybe the second biggest risk after general assembly. These are all quite manageable. There's not like you need (26:27) brain surgery to get these things right. There's lot of work. Like I said, it's just a lot of time and hard work, but it's very doable and, yeah, it's really quite straightforward, it's not like a fundamental impediment here.
Doug Field - Tesla, Inc.:
In many cases, we've seen huge gains through software, software that's in the car, software that controls the automation and connects to our central system. So in many cases, it's not even hardware upgrades that create substantial increases in velocity.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly. Doug makes a good point here. And I think that is – the production, a really great production system is primarily a software problem. And there's no one in the auto industry that is remotely as good as Tesla – as software as Tesla. Tesla is way better at software than any other car company. So if it is, what I'm saying is true, that the biggest challenge in a production system is software, and we are in a good position.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC:
Okay. Maybe taking my next question in a different direction. What is your timeline for launching the Model Y and have you begun to spend for this? Or that only begin to start hitting the P&L from an R&D and a CapEx perspective in 2019?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It will only start to become significant in 2019.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC:
Okay. So all of the CapEx spend for this year is associated with Fremont Model 3 Gigafactory?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
No, no, please don't take it literally. I said it will only start to become significant next year. It's not zero right now, but it's not a big number. It's not a big number relative to our revenue.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
In the early days of product development anyway there's not much CapEx. CapEx becomes...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
(28:33) as you committed to equipment and equipment starts to become in-house.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Although, it is remarkable, like, although the amount of money spent in the beginning is really quite low, it begun with development (28:44) program, decisions made at beginning of the development program have massive implications for future CapEx. So it is better to spend a bit more time making the right design decisions and really thinking through the producibility of product, before racing ahead with CapEx decisions. There's no question we could have made the Model 3 much easier to produce than we have. Model Y, I think Model Y is going to be a manufacturing revolution. It will be, I think, incredible from a manufacturing standpoint, because we do not want to go through this pain again. Yeah.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you very much. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Romit Shah with Nomura Instinet.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Hi. Yeah, I just wanted to clarify the gross margin comments related to Model 3 that you put in the letter. You said a couple things. You said over the medium-term, Model 3 gross margins would be below the target of 25%. You also said that in Q3 and Q4, that those gross margins would be highly positive. So, I'm just trying to understand what's possible for Model 3 gross margins by the end of the year? Could we get to a number that's close to 20%?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
What I'd say is that progressively each quarter we will be getting better, and yes. The answer is yeah. And it'll come down to what other economics come into play from currencies to commodities and how much more costs we take out from labor. So, I don't want to give you a specific number, but it'll be close to it.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly. It's very close to 20%, it could be slightly lower, it could be slightly above.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Okay. Fair enough. And then, Elon, can I just ask you about...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sorry, just going a little further forward than, say Q4. We're very confident of the 25% gross margin...
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Thanks for clarifying that. Yeah, we feel very good about that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
For next year, 25% is definitely what we would expect.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
So, when you say medium-term, you're talking 2018?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly. That's why I was looking forward to clarify what these things mean. Q4 is when we expect to be on or about 20%. Then – but by the middle of next year, 25% gross margin should be where we are. And then, we'll also try to get to the high-20s by the next year.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Okay. Okay. As a follow-up, could you just comment on Jim Keller's departure? A highly respected chip architect. What does it say, if anything, about the development of Tesla's custom silicon and autopilot? Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, Jim's a great guy, and there's sort of a career he wanted to pursue for a long time which is to kind of redesign how server architecture works. Something that I find a little bit (32:25) interesting, but it's something that Jim – it's been a sort of personal dream that (32:27) Jim's to do and that's why he went to Intel. The design of the Tesla hardware is primarily led by Pete Bannon, I should be clear (32:47). The lead designer of that is Pete Bannon, who is still with Tesla. And, of course, Andrej Karpathy is head of our AI team. So, we don't plan to hire a replacement for Jim's position.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Great. Thank you very much. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Toni Sacconaghi with Bernstein.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Yes. Thank you. I just wanted to follow-up on the previous question and the gross margin targets. I think you had said last quarter that once you got to 5,000 units, you felt that you could get to 25% gross margins on Model 3. So, that feels like at least a six-month or nine-month delay relative to what you thought a quarter ago. And I'm trying to understand what the key drivers are. Is it really the labor for capital substitution? I don't think currency sequentially has changed much. I understand it can be a headwind, but I think relative to when you made those statements it hasn't changed. So, perhaps you can help us understand what has changed in terms of the gross margin ramp for Model 3 relative to what you thought before? And I have a follow-up, please.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, it's along the lines of what we said in the letter. If we look at the combination of the recently imposed tariffs, Section 232 and countervailing duties, plus commodity price increases as well as the weaker dollar that is adding significant material costs. And then temporarily, we're using more labor. So when you combine those two, that's what led to our guidance. And certainly the labor cost piece we will address, and that will come out.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, but we're talking about a 3% to 5% difference, and that's something that we'll solve like within three to six-months later. So it's not like it's some (34:57) case out of it.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Okay. And then separately, what if anything are you taking out in terms of your lowered CapEx projection for this year? And specifically, in spending less than $3 billion, where does that take you in terms of both battery and production capacity for the Model 3?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
So, we're just being much more smarter in many cases. As Elon said, we are not just spending money on automation. We're, of course, looking at the problem, simplifying it, and that's helped us reduce our CapEx on Model 3. And then, we're also being critical about how we grow our infrastructure and line it up with our growth in our business. So, we feel that these are the right decisions, and there is still room for us to reduce it further, if we wish to. So, we are leaving ourselves some discretion here to go spend money where needed.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
And so where specifically will you be in terms of capital requirements?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Excuse me. Next. Boring bonehead questions are not cool. Next?
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Joseph Spak with RBC Capital Markets.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Thank you. The first question is related to the Model 3 reservations, and I was just wondering if you gave us a gauge as maybe some of the impact that the news has had. Like, of the reservations that actually opened and made available to configure, can you let us know, like, what percentage have actually taken the step to configure?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We're going to go to YouTube. Sorry. These questions are so dry. They're killing me.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question is from Galileo Russell with HyperChange.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Hey. Great quarter. Thanks for having me on the call to represent retail investors. I was wondering with Waymo's plans to launch an autonomous taxi service in limited markets this year, if you could give us an update on the Tesla Network? And any details surrounding the launch date or geographic rollout? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. Thank you for an interesting question. The way things are obviously rolling towards is a shared electrical autonomy model. So, in order for the whole sort of system to work, you need all the pieces in place. You need to have full autonomy, level four or five, whatever you want to call it and, obviously, a lot of cars on the road, and then build the software infrastructure behind that to enable shared autonomy, to enable people to share their cars and be able to offer their cars as effectively kind of a robo-Lyft or robo-Uber, sort of like a combination of like, I guess, Uber, Lyft and Airbnb type of thing, where you can own your car and have 100% usage of an autonomous electric car. You can say it's available generally to anyone who wants to use it. When you're not using it, you can recall it, at will. You can restrict usage to only friends and family, or only users who are five-star. This is like the obvious thing that's going to happen. In order for that to be in place, we have to obviously sell full autonomy and we're making really good progress on that front. I believe that the current production of – vehicles that we are currently producing are capable of full autonomy with the only thing that would really be, like, might be needed – maybe is probably needed is a computer upgrade to have more processing power for the vision neural net. But that's a plug-in replacement, a thing that can be done quite easily. So, I think we're really well-positioned and are building the right – the foundation for having millions, ultimately tens of millions of shared autonomous electric vehicles I think we're shooting like I said (40:08) decide not to share if you don't want to. (40:12)...
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
And specifically on the timing, though. Do you have any details about or when we could even expect to learn more about the timing of this service?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, the hardest thing to break about the timing is regulatory approval. The thing that's tricky with autonomous vehicles is that autonomy doesn't reduce the accident rate or fatality rate to zero. It improves it substantially, but the reality is that even though we think our – we think autonomy, even car autonomy reduces the probability of a death by 30%, which would be incredible because there's like – broadly there's over a 1 million, I think 1.2 million automotive deaths per year. And how many do you read about? Basically, none of them. However but, if it's an autonomous situation, it's headline news, and the media fails to mention that -actually they shouldn't really be writing the story, they should be writing the story about how autonomous cars are really safe, but that's not the story that people want to click on. So they write inflammatory headlines that are fundamentally misleading to the readers. It's really outrageous. And this will be true, even if electric cars were – sorry, if autonomous cars were 10 times safer, so if instead of a 1 million deaths you had 100,000 deaths. There is still going to be people who will still sue and say, hey, you're responsible for the death here. And it's like, well, the 90% of people who didn't die are not suing. They're still alive, they just don't know it. So, we've got to deal with that and then obviously regulators respond to public pressure and the press. So, if the press is hounding the regulators, and the public is laboring on misapprehension that autonomy is less safe because of misleading press, then this is where I find the challenge of predicting it to be very difficult. And, yeah, it's really incredibly irresponsible of any journalists with integrity to write an article that would lead people to believe that autonomy is less safe. Because people might actually turn it off, and then die. So anyway, I'm really upset by this.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Yeah, really interesting answer. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think Tesla is safe from a technical standpoint. I think we'll probably be ready by the end of next year.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Awesome. And then one more quick thing on production capacity and speed of the Fremont line, because this is something you mentioned a lot it seems. And in the last quarterly conference call, you mentioned the max capacity with 700,000 cars for Fremont or somewhere around there. And that was S, X, and 3. And so we recently got a report from Reuters saying that Model Y production would start in November 2019 at Fremont. And so, I'm just kind of curious with the Semi and that Model Y launching next year, like, where you are actually planning on assembling these vehicles?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
The Reuters report is based on nothing. Like I don't know where that came from. We will not be starting production on Model Y at the end of next year. I would say it's probably closer to 24 months from now. So 2020 is a more likely prospect for Model Y, early 2020. And the production location for Model Y has not been decided. We're really crowded here at Fremont. I don't know where we'd put the Model Y production, so it's difficult to imagine that. We just could not fit the Model Y production at Fremont. We are jammed to the gills here. So one thing I know for sure, it's not here. It is crazy packed and we're – yeah, so we'll try to figure out what the optimal location is for Model Y production, but it's not here. Not here at Fremont.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Okay. And I'm not an expert in battery pack technology, but it seems that a lot of people are speculating that the specs for the Semi truck, even I believe the CEO of Daimler said it breaks the laws of physics. So, I'm wondering is this just a linear...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
He doesn't know much about physics. I know him. I'd be happy to engage in a physics discussion with him. I actually studied physics in college.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
So, yeah, my question is that just a linear improvement in your battery technology? Or is there some sort of new breakthrough or different platform that the Semi and Roadster are going to be built on?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Even if we didn't improve our battery technology at all, we could achieve a 500 mile range truck at all. We're going to do better than 500 miles.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, this is JB. I think the key point, it doesn't require some dramatic breakthrough. So, there's a fundamental misunderstanding I think of what the current technology in our existing products can actually do.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
And maybe that's just the misunderstanding of sort of the current status of the technology versus others in the industry. That could be where some of that's coming from if they're benchmarking sort of the best battery pack they can buy from a supplier...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
And then mapping that what the Semi could do, it doesn't give you – it doesn't solve.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
You're right.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I think that's maybe where some of it's coming from, but we basically have what we need in-house and understand how to do those specs today or better as Elon said.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We can do a 500 mile range Semi today. I think the actual production unit will be about 600-mile range.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Awesome. Great stuff. So, I'm also wondering, are you guys going to let Porsche best you to market with a 350 kilowatt-hour Supercharger? Because I know you've mentioned V3...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We'll keep going if you (46:57) ask questions that are not boring. Sorry, go ahead.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Yeah, I can keep going, so.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, that's cool. This is way more interesting.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
The 350 kilowatt charger from Porsche, like if they mentioned they're rolling that out, on the lab (47:11) call it. JB seemed to indicate that you guys were sort of going to keep the status quo with your Supercharger technology, but Elon, I know you've mentioned that there is a V3 Supercharger. So, I'm just trying to get some clarity on whether you will be improving your Supercharger technology or not, and if there is a V3?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Oh, we're definitely going to be improving our Supercharger technology. The thing about a 350 kilowatt charger is it doesn't actually make a ton of sense, unless you've got a monster battery pack or have like a crazy high C-rate, in which case your energy density is going to be poor. So it's kind of cockamamie. Yeah, we think maybe 200 kilowatt, on a per car – also I don't know if they made (47:55) 350 kilowatts for a single car, that's really pretty – you're going to frag the battery pack if you do that. You cannot charge a high-energy battery pack at that rate, unless it's a very high kilowatt-hour battery pack. So something along the – yeah, I think – I don't know, JB, a couple hundred, 200 kilowatt, 250 kilowatt maybe.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely sort of the power level that we've discussed and explored and some of it also comes down to an optimization around utility versus cost and trade-offs in the car itself. You kind of hinted that Elon, but there is a trade-off fundamentally between charged speed and essentially range or cost of battery.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
And we look at that pretty carefully. We understand the trade-off and we could design cells and a pack that could charge at faster than 300, 400 kilowatts. But it's not a very useful trade-off to the customer.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, (49:03) energy and power even really?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Energy – (49:08) range and then power is kind of like your peak acceleration basically, the rate at which you consumer energy. So really, it's more important to have – it's more important to have long range than it is to have a superfast charge time. And you can sort of think about this in the devices that you use. Would you rather have a cell phone that lasted two hours, but it could charge in five minutes or 10 minutes let's say, but it only lasted two hours. Or you like a cell phone that lasts two days and maybe takes an hour to charge.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We'll keep going to (50:02) while they're interesting.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Yeah, I have a couple more. For the Superchargers. I know you guys are not trying to profit off of Tesla owners with that infrastructure, but would you ever open that up to other automakers and try and generate revenue from that system?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We always said that this is not intended to be a walled garden, and we're happy to support other automakers and let them use our Supercharger stations. They would just need to pay share of the costs proportionately to their vehicle usage. And they would need to be able to accept our charge rate and our connector, or at least have an adapter to our connector. So this is something we're very open to, but so far none of the other carmakers have wanted to do this. But it's like not because of opposition from us. This is not a walled garden trying to make a moat (50:55).
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Okay. And maybe could you clarify what's the strategy? It seems like that would be a very strong moat (51:03) network you guys have been building globally for years. So why open it up, and why is that not a moat?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sorry, can you repeat the question?
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
I'm just wondering why that isn't a moat, because as a long-term investor, I feel like the charging infrastructure you guys have built would take years and millions of dollars for another brand to replicate, so I'm just curious about the strategic thinking behind opening that up versus keeping it closed.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
First of all, I think moats are lame. It's nice sort of quaint in a vestigial way. If your only defense against invading armies is a moat, you will not last long. What matters is the pace of innovation. That is the fundamental determinant of competitiveness. And for any given company, if the rate of innovation, let's say, our competitors, maybe they come up with something every six years, we're maybe every two to three years. So, if our innovation is, let's say, twice that of any given competitor, then it is simply – this is true of generally of companies in any industry. Whichever company has the highest rate of innovation, unless that company is actively killed by its competitors in some way that's nefarious, or shoots itself in the foot, it will at some point exceed those competitors. Like, this is obvious that this would occur with Amazon and Walmart, because Walmart's rate of innovation was negligible, and Amazon's was very high. The outcome was obvious a long time ago.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
And in terms of the mega charger, I noticed you guys are going to be selling energy at a fixed price for those truck customers. So, I'm wondering what the velocity is there? Is it also you're going to operate that at cost and reduce that energy price? Or are you thinking of that as a revenue stream for the company?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
We haven't really talked about any of that, and haven't finalized frankly any of that. We want to make sure that there is a very seamless and easy system to operate trucks wherever they need to go. And some customers may elect to work with us on the whole system, or parts of it. But I think there's a lot of different ways that that can be solved.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, for sure with commercial truck, heavy duty Semi, economics are fundamental to that situation. They're not making decisions based on aesthetics or consumer-related things. We tried to make our Semi kind of cool and sexy, just because we think that that's a good thing to do, not because it affects the buying decision of our customers in a meaningful way. It doesn't really move the needle. We have a slight laughable lawsuit recently from some company ironically called Nikola. Nikola is suing Tesla. That's hilarious. Fate loves irony. But they're suing us because the way the trucks look, which is absurd. Nobody's buying a Semi truck because the way it looks, or because going to wraparound windshield or whatever. Please. So the economics are incredibly important, and so we have to make sure that the Superchargers or mega-chargers, or whatever we call them, or the trucks are set up in a way to have very low cost electricity.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
One maybe slightly related point to that that I think is super exciting about this is the potential to link up renewable energy generation at a very fixed and also very affordable cost to color future trucking fleets. Ultimately, that can give customers an incredibly deterministic cost per mile that will not change with the price of petroleum over decades, which is really, really an interesting proposition for a trucking customer. And that something that we're pretty excited about.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
I have one last one.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's really what is emphasizing that. For trucking companies, like, if the cost of diesel goes up a few cents, it just like destroys their business, and with the sort of mega-charger situation, having (55:48) a solar battery powered mega-charger, we have constant costs. And we know what they are. We bake them in.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
It's predictable.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, it's very predictable and lower cost per mile than a diesel truck. Primarily it's like, what is the cost? What's the cost per mile or kilometer of cargo? And that drives the commercial trucking market. And we could have the ugliest truck in the world and it still would be victorious.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Yeah, and building on that, do you have any thoughts on how the trucking market could change or potentially grow if you guys are actually able to deliver on dramatic cost reductions, especially with things like platooning?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think it will take away quite a bit of revenue from railway, because the reason rail is able to be competitive is it effectively just platooning with lots of railcars, and you need only a small crew to operate the train. However, trains don't go everywhere. So you have to have a truck deliver things to the train rail spur, and then at the destination the truck has got pick it up from the rail spur over there. So, you still have trucks plus train plus transfer. So, I think platooning of trucks will quite dramatically affect the rail industry in a negative way.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Okay. Last one. I promise. On Tesla Energy, I assume that you guys are basically supply constrained, not demand constrained, on that side of the business. So, I'm wondering how you're prioritizing residential versus utility scale. And in particular, how is this successful project in South Australia sort of changed the industry's perception of what batteries can do?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I think it's had quite a profound effect. South Australia took a chance on doing the world's biggest factory, and it's worked out really well. If you read the articles, it's worked out far beyond their expectations, because the battery is able to respond at the millisecond level, far faster than any hydrocarbon plant. And so, its battery (58:16) and grid stabilization was much greater actually than even a gas turbine plant, which normally respond quite fast. So, it's kind of like you get on Tesla and you can have that instant acceleration. It feels like you have – sort of like a mind meld with the car. So it's like the car is you. And that same rapid response is true of the battery pack. So the utilities that we've worked thus far have really loved the battery pack, and I feel confident that we'll be able to announce a deal at the gigawatt-hour scale within a matter of months. So, it's 1,000-megawatt-hours per (59:06).
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, maybe just the first part of your question also, it is absolutely accurate that we are still – there's more than enough demand and we are still building under our demand backlog and actually increasing it slightly. And we're trying to do our best to prioritize customers between residential Powerwall and utility and commercial. I'd say our longer-term strategy is to shift a little bit of our focus and really catch up on our Powerwall demand backlog, which is quite – it's too long right now. We know people are waiting too long, so I think that's generally the direction we're trying to take that. But Model 3 has taken a lot of focus in the last few quarters and that trend is going to be reversing in the second half of the year.
Galileo Russell - HyperChange LLC:
Awesome. Thank you, guys, so much. Really appreciate the time. Keep up the awesome work.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
You're welcome. Thanks for the great questions.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Phil LeBeau with CNBC.
Phil LeBeau - CNBC LLC:
Hi, Elon. A question on the Tesla Semi. Can you give us some perspective in terms of how many reservations you guys have now? And where you guys are in the plan for developing it and rolling out the first model?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
My apologies. Sorry, we were just discussing something internally. Could you repeat that question?
Phil LeBeau - CNBC LLC:
With the Tesla Semi, how many reservations do you guys now have approximately? And where are you in the process as far as the development and the rollout of the first model in terms of timeline, when you guys expect that to happen, et cetera?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I actually don't know how many reservations we have for the Semi. About 2,000? Okay. I mean, we haven't really tried to sell the Semi. It's not like there's like an ongoing sales effort, so sales – orders for Semi are like opportunistic, really companies approaching us. Yeah, it's not something we really think about much. Our focus is on the Model 3. We need to get that to above 5,000 a week at a good margin. We need to become a profitable company. That is a good criticism that has been leveled to Tesla, inaccurate one, it is high time we became profitable. And the truth is, like you're not a real company until you are, frankly. So that's our focus right now. And we've got an awesome product roadmap. The Tesla Semi is one of those things. And I think we've got a really good idea for – the Model Y is going to be amazing. I'm really excited about that. Tesla Pickup's going to be great, and – yeah, so. The product roadmap – I mean, we have like way more cool things than we know what to do. Like, the idea is (01:02:29) Generation Park is devoted to execute it, so we just need to stay focused and not divide our attention on too many products at one time.
Phil LeBeau - CNBC LLC:
And a follow up. Given the fact that you're already packed to the gills in Fremont, when will you make a decision regarding a second manufacturing facility?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So that's probably later this year. It has to be later this year. So I'm not sure of the exact time but I don't know, maybe next quarter, but not later than fourth quarter for Model Y. And then we also expect to announce the location of the Tesla Gigafactory in China soon.
Phil LeBeau - CNBC LLC:
And will that second factory, when you announce it, will it be in North America? Or is that going to be in China?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, I just said it's in China.
Phil LeBeau - CNBC LLC:
So the Gigafactory is there, but the second manufacturing plant will be in China as well?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sorry. Oh, I mean, yeah, so, in the future, all Gigafactories will include vehicle production. So, right, now we've got vehicle production and battery production. Like, battery production and motor and power electronics and charger production are at Giga and (01:03:52) Fremont car factory. But future Gigafactories will all incorporate vehicle production.
Phil LeBeau - CNBC LLC:
Got it. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We're very appreciative of the fact that the Government of China has announced that they will be allowing full ownership of manufacturing facilities in China. I would just like to express an order of appreciation to the Chinese Government in that regard. Robin, is there anything that you'd like to say or anything?
Robin Ren - Tesla, Inc.:
We are in good discussion with the government, so we'll announce something (01:04:34).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. So Robin Ren is here with me. Robin is managing worldwide sales for Tesla right now. He was born and raised in Shanghai. (01:04:54) But we'll talk more about – I think in the next earnings call or next – we'll have a lot more to say about that in the future.
Operator:
Our next question comes from James Albertine with Consumer Edge.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
And if I can be brief, I wanted to ask, given the coverage that you've received as it relates to these high profile accidents, one of the things we like most about your company is you have the most miles tested and continue to test daily from an autopilot perspective. Can you give us any color from what you're seeing in your data as it relates to the confidence that your consumers have in the autopilot functionality, whether they've used it more or less frequently in their existing vehicles? Or whether they've opted to purchase the functionality more or less in lieu of these accidents? Because we're really trying to get a sense of the likelihood of consumers to adopt this technology over time, so this would be very helpful. Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We do see a steady increase in the number of – the percentage of miles driven using autopilot. As we roll out more functionality, as we make it better, we see a steady increase. I think it's something – (01:06:25) autopilot's something on the order of one-third of highway miles, maybe closer – maybe a half in some cases, in some regions, are on autopilot. But then, of course, when there's, like, negative news in the press then that dips. And then I was like, okay, this is not good because people are reading things in the press that causes them to use autopilot less. And then that makes it dangerous for our customers, and that's not cool. That's why I'm against that. And then we get accused of blaming the victim. I was like, what? We're not blaming the victim here, but it is important that people not be under the wrong impression. The statistics are unequivocal that autopilot improves safety. No question. In fact, one thing I was going to mention (01:07:16) is that we will be publishing our safety statistics on a quarterly basis...
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Wonderful.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
...so people know exactly what autopilot safety is. Is it getting better? Or is it getting worse? And one of the common misimpressions is that when there is, say, a serious accident on autopilot, people for some reason think that – or some of the articles think that it's because the driver thought the car was fully autonomous and it wasn't, and we somehow misled them into thinking it was fully autonomous. It is the opposite case. When there is a serious accident, almost always – in fact, maybe always, the case that it is an experienced user and the issue is more one of complacency. Like, they get too used to it. That tends to be more of an issue. It is not a lack of understanding of what autopilot can do. It's actually thinking they know more about autopilot than they do, like quite a significant understanding of it, but (01:08:36).
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Just to clarify, Elon, so you've got two accidents spaced out pretty far. You've had dips during those periods when the accidents occurred. But to clarify your comments, you are seeing increasing usage, and you've weathered those dips based on where we are today?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
That is correct.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Wonderful. Thank you so much.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Ben Kallo with Baird.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
Hey, Elon. So I remember the Baron story, I don't know if it was fake news or not, what you hung up on about your battery costs. And I don't want to ask a mundane question, but I think it's important because one of your stakeholders are shareholders right now, and so far we've had a couple of push-outs in production. Is there a way that you can update us when you get to that 3,000 number or 4,000 number per week? I mean you're active on Twitter. Can you just let us know because we are going to have a big vacuum here (01:09:35), and there's a lot of news flow out there that makes volatility into the slot, it makes it hard for people to own, even though you have a lot of believers out there. And so even though we're being myopic right now, I think it's very important to get those kind of updates. And so I think that's my question. Can you give us an update when you get to 3,000 and 4,000 per week on the Model 3?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, actually, Tesla is such a leaky sieve of information that, I think, the news will leak pretty quickly. And also people track registrations very closely. So, at most, any information that we provide would be a week or two in advance of what will become public knowledge just due to vehicle registrations and shipments that are tracked very carefully. So really the point is, like, people get too focused on, like, what's happening in the space of a few weeks or a few months. This is an old maxim of (01:10:40) investing, you should not be focused on short-term things, you should be focused on long-term things. We have no interest in satisfying the desires of day traders. I couldn't care less. Please sell our stock and don't buy it.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
I completely understand your frustration and I'm frustrated too on how myopic we are right now. They also say that great years were made out of quarters, and great decades are made out of years, so everyone's short-term focus in some ways, and volatility has a way of shaking people out even they are strong and want to be there.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
That's okay.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
And anything you can do to help in the near-term on that, I think is helpful for the stock. (01:11:29) That's it.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think that if people are concerned about volatility, they should definitely not buy our stock. I'm not here to convince you to buy our stock. Do not buy it if volatility is scary. There you go.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. And let's go to our last question now.
Operator:
Thank you. Our last question comes from Alex Potter with Piper Jaffray.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Hi, guys. Thanks a lot. Not sure if this is going to be a hard question to answer. You mentioned Model 3 market share versus the three series and others in that segment. To what extent do you think Model 3 is, I guess, changing the denominator, making that segment larger as a class versus what it used to be?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think it will probably increase the total number of sedans purchased. Yeah, I think so.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
So you think you're pulling ex Accord buyers and Camry buyers into that class as example?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, we know this because of the trade-ins. So we see quite a wide range of cars. (01:12:49) a lot of trading in the cars, they're not necessarily owners of a C-Class or an Audi A4 or the 3 Series.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
We saw signs of it even with Model S.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Even with Model S.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
So that Model 3 is going to be even more prominent.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think – like, also once we get to, like, the shared autonomy ride hailing thing, which could be as soon as at the end of next year, but that's when it's technically ready, but they're not long enough (01:13:26) that I would expect some jurisdictions to give regulatory approval. The effective cost of ownership of a Model 3 or Tesla drops dramatically because you can share that car with others.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Okay. Very interesting. Last one. You mentioned earlier you think the Model Y production is going to be a true sort of production revolution. If you had to do the Model 3 over again there are some things that you would've changed, and you hope to incorporate those learnings into the Model Y. What specifically would you do? Or what specifically would you plan to do?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, I think – let's save that for another time. Like, we'll talk about that when we unveiled the Model Y. But it's really going to be dramatically better. The design and production system, I think, really will be next level.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Okay. Look forward to it (01:14:31).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
(01:14:32) Model Y, yeah.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Thanks a lot. Thanks, everyone. Appreciate the good questions.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. That's unfortunately all the time we have, so thank you very much. And speak to you next quarter. Thank you very much, and goodbye.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in today's conference. This does conclude the program. You may all disconnect, and have a wonderful day.
Executives:
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc. Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc. Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc. Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc. Doug Field - Tesla, Inc.
Analysts:
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc. Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management) David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC Philippe Jean Houchois - Jefferies International Ltd. Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc. John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla, Inc. Fourth Quarter 2017 Financial Results Q&A Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we'll conduct a question-and-answer session and instructions will be given at that time. I would now like to turn the call over to Senior Director of Investor Relations, Mr. Martin Viecha. Please go ahead, sir.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you, Andrew, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's fourth quarter 2017 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, JB Straubel, Deepak Ahuja, and Doug Field is on the line. Our 4Q results were announced at about 1:00 PM Pacific Time in the update letter we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourself to one question and one follow up. Before we jump to Q&A, Elon would like to have some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you. So 2017 was obviously a big year for Tesla. We launched the Model 3, which is our first mass-production vehicle, and it's a huge step change for Tesla. Lot of challenges, but I think we made tremendous progress on that front. We also designed and installed and brought into operation the world's largest battery in Australia, that's largest battery by a significant margin, and that battery is exceeding its performance target significantly. We also unveiled the Tesla Semi, which is a super heavy-duty truck, maximum load Semi truck, and the next-gen Roadster, which we believe will exceed gasoline sports cars on every dimension. And we also achieved record production and deliveries of Model S and X. And overall, I think, while there were challenges associated with Model 3 ramp, we were in a deeper level of health than we expected, so a few levels deeper than we'd like to be, but swiftly exiting, I think. And so it was really, I think, on balance, a phenomenal year. And I'd like to thank everyone at Tesla, who should be very proud of the work they've done. This is incredibly difficult. And I'd like to thank everyone for their hard work and contribution to 2017 being, I think, a really great year for Tesla. I also want to thank our suppliers, particularly those involved in the Model 3, as they've shared the very difficult struggle we've had in ramping up production. And they've really burned the midnight oil, spent weekends and taken a lot of risks and suffered alongside us in the challenges associated with the ramp. So I'd like to thank them for supporting us through this difficult time with Model 3. As well, our customers and Model 3 reservation holders, you're going to love your cars, and we're working to get them to you as quickly as we possibly can. As for Model 3 production, we continue to make significant progress every day, and we're targeting a weekly production rate of 2,500 vehicles by the end of March and 5,000 by the end of Q2. And as you've seen in the letter, the quarter-over-quarter production of Model 3 is rising exponentially. So I'm hopeful that people think that if we can send a Roadster to the asteroid belt, we could probably solve Model 3 production. It's just a matter of time, and really error bars on the timing are really quite small in the grand scheme of things. So 2018 is likely to be a very big year for us. At some point in 2018, we expect to begin generating positive quarterly operating income on a sustained basis, operating 5,000 per week of Model 3 production, and I am cautiously optimistic that we will be GAAP profitable. It's not certain, but I'm cautiously optimistic that we will actually be GAAP profitable with no asterisk.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you, Elon. Andrew, let's go to the first question.
Operator:
Certainly. I'm showing we have a question from the line of Rod Lache with Deutsche Bank. Your line is now open.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Hi, everybody. Thanks for taking my question, and congratulations on the launch yesterday. Wanted to just ask a couple of questions. One is just to get a little bit more color from you on Model 3, what the production run rate is at the moment. Maybe if you can just provide us a little more color on where the challenges are at this point? On the last call you talked about I think two of the four zones at Gigafactory that were still kind of an issue in manual operation. Have those been resolved? And once you get to 2,500, is the ramp to 5,000 – does that just merely involve increasing line speeds?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. I'll try to give you as much color as possible. I am reminded of – I think it may have been Churchill's line about sausage. If you like sausage and respect the law, you should watch neither being made, and to some degree that is true of our production ramp. So, I wouldn't read too much into the day-to-day battles of this or that. But I'll give you the color, but don't read too much into it. Yes. There are four zones in module production. Module production is fundamentally the limiting factor on Model 3 output, which is ironic since battery modules really should be the thing we're best at. And I think in part we were probably a little over-confident, a little complacent in thinking that this is something we know and understand. And put a lot of attention on other things and just got too comfortable with our ability to do battery modules because we've been doing that since the start of the company. And of the four zones, two of them, of which are subcontracted to – the production systems are subcontracted to other companies, flat out didn't work, it turns out like, I mean, we promised they would work and it just didn't work. So, we had to do what would normally be maybe an 18-month development cycle for a production system of that scale and complexity, and try to do that in basically six months or maybe little, six to nine months. And we've tackled that on multiple levels, so we have a design that is nearing completion for a new automated system for Zone 1 and 2 that is being led by our Tesla Grohmann team. It's an excellent design. All the other work that they've done has performed to spec, and we expect a single Tesla Grohmann line to be equivalent to three, if not four, of the current lines that we have and be smaller, which is kind of amazing. And then we have what we call a semi-automatic line, which is a series of small automated stations manned by people and they've actually been remarkably effective. It has to some degree renewed my faith in humanity that the rapid evolution of progress and the ability of people to adapt rapidly is quite remarkable. Our semi-automatic – our sort of semi-manual, semi-automatic line is exceeding all three of the automatic lines right now. So – and that is something that we're able to scale quite rapidly. I mean, JB, is there additional color you'd like to – on that?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. That's a great summary of it. I think much has been made about the manual production of modules, but it's really not very accurate. These are – these are, as Elon said, semi-auto lines where we have people that are moving materials, perhaps between the machines, that are actually performing the operations. But there is still a degree of automation doing the operation.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's not artisanal.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly. This is what has been ramping quite effectively in the last – in the first half – first part of this year.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
So, we're continuing to expand that, those semi-auto lines, and that is effectively bridging the gap as we re-design the full automation and bring that online.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, actually I think it's probably worth providing some tours for investors that are interested, so you can actually see it first-hand. I think part of it is like, if you see it firsthand you'll understand exactly what's going on. And so I think let's arrange for some tours for investors that are interested because I think you can really get a feel for what it is. Otherwise, it's just some words that are kind of hard to put – hard to imagine.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I also just want to add. I think it's fair to say that this maybe degree of complacency that happened at the end of last year has been thoroughly replaced by an intense focus from a huge portion of the Tesla team and there are a lot of different initiatives and teams, whole teams, targeted at this area. So, as Elon opened with, it's not a question of if we will get to the production rate, it's just a question of the matter of time.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Absolutely.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
If I could just clarify. What's the run rate now with semi-automation and when are you expecting the fully automated line to come on?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, it's probably a level of granularity that is not productive to dive into in terms of exactly what is coming from which operation. But we do expect the new automated lines to be landing and starting up at the Gigafactory in just the next – landing in sight within this quarter.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. We expect the new automated lines to arrive next month in March, and then it's already – it's been – it's working in Germany. So, that's got to be disassembled, brought over to the Gigafactory, and re-assembled and then brought into operation at the Gigafactory. It's not a question of whether it works or not. It's just a question of disassembly, transport, and reassembly.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So, yes. So, we expect to alleviate that constraint. That – with alleviating that constraint, that's what gets us to the roughly 2,000 to 2,500 unit per week production rate. The next constraint would be material conveyance at our Fremont vehicle plant, so there's a very sophisticated automated parts conveyance system. We think it's probably the most sophisticated in the world, or at least we're not aware of one that is more so, and the software for that is quite complex. So that would be the next constraint on production to get to 5,000 is the conveyance system in Fremont. So that also appears to be on track. So, we feel like the error bars around the unit volume predictions are getting smaller with each passing week.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Andrew, let's go to the next question.
Operator:
All right. And our next question comes from the line of Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley. Your line is now open.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Thanks, everyone. I also want to add my congrats for the launch yesterday. That twin Falcon landing was probably the sickest thing I've ever seen in my life on...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thanks.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
First question's for – yes, it was just nutty. Totally nutty.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Nutty. Yes.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Deepak, a question for you. Given the negative trade cycle, your negative working cap, some of the modeling analysts are doing kind of simulating when you get to 2,500 or 5,000 or maybe somewhere in between that, that some of the arrangements you made with your suppliers who have been very helpful, that you might temporarily run enough negative working cap to even have operating cash flow exceed CapEx. Is that something that's possible? Or, again, I know there's execution behind that clearly, but is that something out of question, temporarily even?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
We got to look at it from a full quarter perspective. The negative working cycle is amplified by the rate at which we ramp our production, given our present plans of getting to 5,000 by end of Q2. It's a fairly gradual – it's exponential from where we started, but it's not going to create a situation where our cash flow from operations will exceed CapEx.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Okay. Thanks for confirming that. And just as a follow up, Elon, your kind of long-term compensation plan obviously got a lot of attention and raised some questions, however, long-term from now on succession. Just wanted to ask, do you see your successor as CEO of Tesla someone currently within the company right now, or from outside the company, kind of how do you see that? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think that there's no active search going on. There's not even – active or passive search going on for a new CEO of Tesla. I expect to remain CEO for the foreseeable future. But at some point if there's somebody really spectacular inside or outside the company who could take on that role and who would want to have that title and that role, and that would be fine with me, and I would focus on product development, which is design and engineering, which is what I like doing best. So, there are no plans to make a change at this time.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Thanks.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Next question, please.
Operator:
All right. Our next question comes from the line of Tyler Frank with Baird. Your line is now open, sir.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Hi. Thanks for taking the question, guys. I guess Elon, bigger picture in looking out a few years, you had mentioned a couple of quarters ago that the 1 million car target for 2020 was still there. And that you would need to introduce the Model Y by then. How do we connect from where we are today to getting to 1 million units a year? And what should we look for this year in terms of ramping production or building a facility for the Model Y?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We are going to make some capital investments towards the end of this year related to Model Y. I don't want to jump the gun on those, but I think we've got a good plan. I'm pretty excited about how we're designing Model Y. It's really taking a lot of lessons learned from Model 3 and saying how do we design something to be easy to manufacture instead of how to manufacture or difficult, really. So, I think it's going to be – I really think it's going to be pretty great and pretty scalable for Model Y. But we are going to, as you suspect, need to make some capital investments in the second half of this year, really late Q3, Q4 for Model Y. But I think we want to wait probably three to six months before announcing any definitive plans on production location and the details associated with that.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
And is that 1 million unit target still in play?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Perfect. And then just one quick follow up. How should we think about the Tesla Semi and investments needed there? And what do you guys think you can hit from an annual run rate in the next let's say two to four years?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, there's big difference between two and four years. Tesla – and I've said, I think, even a few years ago, I think Tesla is going to grow at an average of roughly 30% a year, which is a crazy average growth rate for a company manufacturing a complex product at scale. So, two versus four is a huge difference. But if you say – and it's much easier to predict, especially these productions curves, they look like an S-curve, where you have an initial exponential, which if the exponential appears – since people naturally tend to extrapolate on a straight-line basis, an exponential when it appears, the predictions are conservative in the beginning. And then the exponential takes off and it becomes linear and then it becomes logarithmic. So it's easier to predict – far easier to predict the endpoint or the steady state of the S-curve than anywhere on that exponential or log curve. So if you take four years, I think, 100,000 units a year is a reasonable expectation. Maybe more, but that's the right – roughly the right number, I think.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
For the Tesla Semi?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Perfect.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. I think we might be able to exceed the specs that we unveiled last year too, which is pretty exciting. Another speculation that we might not meet them, but I think we're going to exceed them. And I made this comment before, (20:24) over these comments, but I really take these to heart. The competitive strength of Tesla long-term is not going to be the car; it's going to be the factory. We're going to productize the factory. And really, this is a lesson that is kind of obvious in history because the Model T wasn't the product, it was River Rouge. The Model T was a very simple car. Anybody could have made that car, but not anyone could make River Rouge, and that's really what will ultimate – what will be Tesla's long-term competitive advantage. We'll have a great product. So a great design, great engineering the products itself in the vehicles and autonomy and all that sort of stuff. But the factory is going to be the product that has the long-term sustained competitive advantage, in my opinion.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Next question, please.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of David Tamberrino with Goldman Sachs. Your line is now open.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC:
Great. Thank you. Elon, on your autonomous vehicle strategy, why do you believe that your current hardware set of only camera plus radar is going to be able to get you to fully-validated autonomous vehicle system? Most of your competitors noted that they need redundancy from lidar hardware to given the robustness of the 3D point cloud and the data that's generated. What are they missing in their software stack and their algorithms that Tesla is able to obtain from just the camera and plus radar? Further, what would be your response if the regulatory bodies required that level of redundancy is really needed from an incremental lidar hardware?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Well, first of all, I should say there's actually three sensor systems. There are cameras, (22:25) redundant forward cameras, there's the forward radar, and there are the ultrasonics for near field. So, the third is also – the third set is also important for near-field stuff, just as it is for human. But I think it's pretty obvious that the road system is geared towards passive optical. We have to solve passive optical image recognition, extremely well in order to be able to drive in any given environment and the changing environment. We must solve passive optical image recognition. We must solve it extremely well. At the point at which you have solved it extremely well, what is the point in having active optical, meaning lidar, which does not – which cannot read signs; it's just giving you – in my view, it is a crutch that will drive companies to a local maximum that they will find very difficult to get out of. If you take the hard path of a sophisticated neural net that's capable of advanced image recognition, then I think you achieve the goal maximum. And you combine that with increasingly sophisticated radar and if you're going to pick active proton generator, doing so in 400 nanometer to 700 nanometer wavelength is pretty silly, since you're getting that passively. You would want to do active photon generation in the radar frequencies of approximately around 4 millimeters because that is occlusion penetrating. And you can essentially see through snow, rain, dust, fog, anything. So, it's just I find it quite puzzling that companies would choose to do an active proton system in the wrong wavelength. They're going to have a whole bunch of expensive equipment, most of which makes the car expensive, ugly and unnecessary. And I think they will find themselves at a competitive disadvantage. Now perhaps I am wrong. In which case, I'll look like a fool. But I am quite certain that I am not.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC:
Understood. And as a follow up, if I may, can we talk about the trajectory for the Model S and X margins. 3Q 2017 I think the company was saying you were in the low 20% range. I think it took another step down per the report today. So I'm assuming it's probably at 20%. What's the path to recovery from here and can you frame us through how you're going to get to that margin expansion?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
We feel very good about the recovery of S and X gross margin in 2018 to a level which we have seen in the past, and it's a combination of a variety of things. It's increasing the mix of the larger batteries, the higher option content, and then also we have a very good and a robust manufacturing cost reduction road map. We will achieve a lot of manufacturing efficiencies, which continue to occur on S and X. So, we feel really good about it.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, and we – our internal plan, whether we meet this or not, I don't know, but I think we will – our internal plan calls for somewhere around a 30% to 32% cash gross margin on S and X by the end of the year and probably 25%, maybe 26% GAAP gross margin on S and X towards the end of this year, and then Model 3, maybe not by the end of this year, but not far behind it.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Right. And this is, as Elon said, internal road map, an internal plan. Things sometimes get delayed, they don't work out exactly. But I think you get a sense that we feel really good about the improvement that's ahead.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. We have a clear path to that goal.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Next question, please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Romit Shah with Nomura. Your line is now open.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Yes. Thank you. It sounds like from the letter that you could do more than 100,000 S and X in 2018, but you're constrained by the 18650s. And I'm just curious what would it take to see the 2170 cells in these vehicles?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, this is JB. It's something we've of course contemplated, but it's quite a large change to the architecture of the module and the battery pack overall. And while the 18650 supply is somewhat of a cap at about 100,000 units per year, even just a few months ago we didn't feel that expanding and making some long-term bets on expanding that supply with Panasonic in Japan was really the right risk. It's something we could consider, but right now we're pretty happy with that balance and it matches our other production capabilities and our other investments.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. It's also like for any given complex manufactured item, in order to go past the total capacity you really need to move the whole supply chain in cadence.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So, you really have to then shift everything to say, okay, if you want to make 20% more S and X, everyone has to make 20% more. There have to be investments in new lines or it's going to require over time, which negatively affects gross margin. Kind of design the manufacturing machines are to create (28:43), and then you'd have to redesign the machine or go redline. And so I think we feel pretty good about the 100,000 a year for S and X, and we want to focus on just improving the efficiency of production and gross margin (29:04).
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Thank you. Okay. Yes, it makes sense.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
We are keeping the course on Model 3. I mean, that's really where the majority of the effort is.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, okay. Exactly.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Okay. The other thing you guys mentioned was upcoming autonomous coast-to-coast drive, which we're really looking forward to. Could you give a little bit more color on timeframe, when something like that would be available for customers?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, so we actually – I've been meaning to address this because obviously I missed the mark on that front. Our focus is very much on Model 3 production, so everything else kind of took a second place to that. But we could have done the coast-to-coast drive, but it would have required too much specialized code to effectively game it or make it somewhat brittle and that it would work for one particular route, but not the general solution. So I think we would be able to repeat it, but if it's just not any other route, which is not really a true solution. I am pretty excited about how much progress we're making on the neural net front. And it's a little – it's also one of those things that's kind of exponential where the progress doesn't seem – it doesn't seem like much progress, it doesn't seem like much progress, and suddenly wow. That's been my observation generally with AI stuff. And you look at say something like what Google DeepMind did with AlphaGo. It went from not being able to beat even a pretty good Go player to something that could beat the European champion, then it could beat the world champion, then it could thrash the world champion, then it could thrash everyone simultaneously. Then they made AlphaZero, which could thrash AlphaGo, and where it's just learning against itself, was better than all the world's human experts. It's going to kind of be like that for self-driving. It will feel like well this is a lame driver, lame driver. Like okay, that's a pretty good driver. Like holy cow, this driver's good. It'll be like that. I mean, timing-wise, I think we could probably do a coast-to-coast drive in three months, six months at the outside.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
And then is it available for customers immediately? Or is there a lag?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, that would be something that's available for customers.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Okay. Great. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
(31:49).
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Yes. Sure.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Okay. Thanks.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you very much. Next question, please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Ryan Brinkman with JPMorgan. Your line is now open.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Hi. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. As you put solutions in place one by one to unclog Model 3 production bottlenecks in Fremont or at the battery module line in Reno, are you finding that the ultimate solution is more or less expensive to implement than your original plans, which called for 25% gross margin on the vehicle? Do you feel any differently now about the cost to manufacture the Model 3 or its gross margin potential versus prior to the start of production last July?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think we feel good about that. I think like – I think we probably are, we're probably able to exceed that next year, probably. Like our understanding of manufacturing has improved dramatically. We can think of a huge number of ways to make it far better, far more efficient. I'm really excited about how much we're learning about manufacturing. That's why I said I think long-term strength of Tesla will be the manufacturing plants, potentially productizing the Gigafactory, which is like the world's biggest product basically. Make it like – make a nuclear Echo carrier (33:22) look pretty small by comparison.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, maybe just to add to that. I mean, the products' bill of materials cost and the embedded labor cost is, I think that's where there's opportunities. And we are simplifying and we're finding ways to improve the design incrementally as we go through the ramp. If there's some small increases in CapEx that doesn't directly – it will be overwhelmed by the improvements and simplicity and some cost savings in the product itself.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. I think the bottom line is we feel really optimistic about the long-term potential for gross margin on Model 3 and especially Model Y.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
We haven't seen anything that currently changes our view.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
That's very helpful. Thanks. And then just – yes. And then for my follow up, I see the guidance in the letter about the quarterly operating income turning positive at some point in 2018. That's great. I'm just curious what your thoughts are with regard to when you also might generate free cash flow. Is that less of a medium-term focus as you prefer to invest operating cash flows from the Model 3 into the Semi truck, the Roadster, and Model Y?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. We could be positive cash flow, like I think pretty significant positive cash flow probably in like third quarter, which is like maybe four, five months from now. But we think it makes sense to invest in Model Y and – yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Future growth of our energy products, Model 3, future growth of that, so.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Our energy products, yeah. The opportunities we see are – we see really good opportunities there.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Makes good business case, good business sense to invest.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Super bullish (35:08). What I find sort of interesting is that our competitors – the car industry thinks they're really good at manufacturing. And actually they are quite good at manufacturing, but they just don't realize just how much potential there is for improvement. It's way more than they think. I went through this math I think on a prior earnings call, but like it sounds like some of the fastest car factories produce a car maybe every 25 seconds. That sounds fast. But if you think of a 5-meter long car, including gap, and a 4.5 meter car with a half meter gap or something, that's only 0.2 meters per second. Like grandma with a walker can exceed the speed of the fastest production line we're in, so really no that fast. Walking speed is one meter per second, so five times faster than the fastest production line on earth.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
That's interesting comment.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Why shouldn't it at least be jogging speed? I mean in the limit, companies should start caring about the aero drag in the factory, which that's maybe around 20 miles or 30 miles an hour, or call it 30 kilometers an hour, 40 kilometers an hour. It's like, stuff should be moving at that speed.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Thank you very much.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Thank you.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
All right. And our next question comes from the line of Toni Sacconaghi with Bernstein. Your line is now open.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Yes. Thank you. You commented in the shareholder letter that capital expenditures for 2018 were expected to be a bit higher than 2017. I'm wondering if you could tell us what exactly is in that, call it roughly, $3.5 billion. Are you going to get to full like 10,000 car per week capacity? Is that in the $3.5 billion? What will Gigafactory production be? And in the slightly more than $3.4 billion, is that also including the investments, Elon, that you mentioned on Model Y? So where exactly is this level of capital spending going to take us in 2018? And I have a follow-up, please.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. I mean, our biggest – our very high level, sort of breakdown, our biggest investment is obviously in the Model 3. And that includes completion of the payments that we still have to make on the capacity we are putting in place now as well as significant investment in our required up front for the next phase of Model 3 production to 10,000 plus per week. So that's, I would say, overall more than 50%. Way more than 50% is Model 3, and the rest is all the many other things we talked about, whether it's energy storage, whether it's -
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Primarily Y and energy storage.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And then our infrastructure spend, superchargers, stores, service centers, we want to significantly increase the service capacity, we want to significantly increase our supercharging capacity.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
So all of those pieces then add up to the total spend.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Just to give some sort of flavor for optimism on Model Y for a minute. I think – Model Y, I think, we might aim for something like maybe capacity of 1 million units a year, something like that, just for Model Y alone. And I think we'll be able to do that for CapEx that is less than the Model 3 CapEx at the $0.5 million. So probably – I think we can probably improve CapEx by a factor of 2. Not a promise, but that's my gut feel on Model Y CapEx, just to give you a flavor for my level of optimism on improvements on the manufacturing front.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Thank you. That's helpful. So is the – $3.5 billion and the greater than 50% to Model 3, is that going to complete all the required equipment to get us to 10,000 a week at the end of the year or are we still going to have incremental capital expenditures? And then, separately on my second question, around Model 3 gross margins, I think you had said that you expected them to be breakeven this quarter. Obviously, volume was lower and so you didn't get there. But for next quarter you're suggesting that they're going to be negative, again, despite the fact that I think Q1 volumes are much higher than what you would have anticipated originally for Q4 when you thought that margins would be breakeven. So can you help reconcile the apparent enthusiasm you have about the gross margin trajectory with the fact that your guidance around gross margins in the near-term actually appears more cautious than it was early this year (40:38).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Did we just lose the line?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Can you hear us?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Hello?
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Yes. I can hear you. Thank you.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Always. Yes. To sort of finish off your first thought or question, no, we will still have further investments in 10,000 per week capacity of Model 3 happening next year, as a lot of that will be concluded next year. There's always a lag in our cash outflow, and while we continue to test the equipment and verify it. So that'll continue in 2019. And then, in terms of the Model 3 gross margin, our expectations earlier were off a much steeper ramp than what we are projecting here. We were targeting, as you well know, at one point hitting 5,000 by the end of 2017, and now that's six months later. So at that slower ramp, we just know we'll have inefficiencies. We have the full capacity, sort of depreciation of all that equipment, and the operating costs are hitting, while we're not producing as many cars. It's actually pretty simple, and it's only temporary.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
It doesn't imply anything fundamental.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Exactly. So the problem is like when you've got a machine, where most of that machine – I mean that overall production and supply chain machine is at a 5,000 unit capacity, but then 10% or 15% of it isn't, then you've got this massive load on a small – on a way smaller production volume. And as that production volume – as you fix the remaining 10% or 15% of the production machine, you're able to get to that target production and then things improve dramatically.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Right.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's sort of like having a car that's operating at a fraction of its – let's use a gasoline analogy. You got a four-cylinder car operating on one cylinder, it's like, okay, (43:01) it's just like a big machine actually. Yeah.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Thank you very much. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Philippe Houchois with Jefferies. Your line is now open.
Philippe Jean Houchois - Jefferies International Ltd.:
Yes. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking the question. I have a – slightly non-related to earnings, about the electric truck, the Semi. In the past, Mr. Musk, you have spoken about a supercapacitor as a way of generating energy or storing energy. Particularly in the application of heavy trucks, I would expect that the surge of energy in slowing down or braking in the truck would be too much for battery to absorb. Are you considering supercapacitor as an application for the Semi or what is your kind of general thought on that technology and the implications to make that industrially viable?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. I mean ages ago, I was going to do basically an applied physical control science degree – a Ph.D in capacitors, so I'm a big fan of capacitors. I just don't think – I think the lithium-ion chemistry is so good at this point that capacitors will not be needed. There's a certain power to energy ratio, and once you have a huge amount of energy, which is needed for range, then you automatically have the power you need for absorbing – being able to do rapid acceleration and braking.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. It's maybe not intuitive – this is JB – but the power to energy demand on the battery in the heavy truck is actually generally less than in our performance vehicles. It's definitely less also in most cases than even the high rate of discharge energy products. As Elon said, you have you a lot of energy, so you end up with a lot of power, actually more than you need.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. And the way the chemistry works is that you're able to actually extract – for short periods of time – extract very high power from lithium-ion cells, as you sort of have ion migration right on surface. And then the sustained power for lithium-ion is certainly less than the power over, say, the course of several seconds, or a minute. But the several seconds power for lithium-ion is remarkably good because you're essentially using ion migration from the outer surface. It's like if you have a parking lot, all the cars in the front of the parking lot can just exit, but once you start getting cars from deep in the parking lot, it takes a while for them to wind their way out.
Philippe Jean Houchois - Jefferies International Ltd.:
Thank you.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you very much. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Brian Johnson with Barclays. Your line is now open.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes. I'd like to talk, follow up a little bit on the first question around some of the manufacturing roadblocks as well as the comment about building a machine to build the machine, which I believe was the title of a 1990 MIT book about Toyota. Could you maybe give us some more discussion really on the managerial culture, the process level? How you would benchmark yourself for example against a Toyota factory, which seems to be able to launch a new product in about three or four months to ramp up? Or at the other extreme, because I know Mr. Field came from there, kind of what Foxconn does in its goal to replace humans? But in particular, you talk about the managerial processes, not so much the robots you're putting into place.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, I'm pretty sure Toyota cannot ramp up a new product in three months. In fact, I'm 100% certain about that. Deepak spent many years at Ford before joining Tesla.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Generally, companies including Toyota take anywhere from six months to a year when they come up with an all new product.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And old news like that's – they are still, it's not really – the amount of technology that changes is not that much.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
It's a major platform, so it's not all new as a Model S or an X that we've done. So it is longer.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Right. They're not fundamentally new technologies.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. But within that then what are the differences though in the way you're going to be managing the factory?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
The most fundamental difference is thinking about the factory really as a product, as a quite vertically integrated product.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
It's treating it as more of an engineering and a technical problem as well.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Instead of...
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Right, which is the Toyota Production System.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. We don't think so.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I think that generally it's more of an optimized operational problem, being extremely lean and really managing the flows of materials and the supply chain. They're great at it, but this is I think a different approach, looking at it really from a deep technical lens in terms of automation, robotics, process.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Imagine like if the Model S was a – the way you design a Model S, design in factory like it's a car. You still have a lot of workers, you still have a lot of people, and it's just like with the Model S, say, we have a large service organization that has scheduled maintenance, that has things that break, there are crashes that need to be repaired, there's technology upgrades. But you don't actually ship people with the Model S. That would be weird. It's not like tiny people in the car. So you have – we expect that the Tesla factory has a lot of people around the factory, but very few people in it.
Doug Field - Tesla, Inc.:
I also think that the degree with which we have – this is Doug – the degree with which we have product development and manufacturing development integrated is unique. And Model 3 already is a dramatically simpler car to build than the Model S and even many people in operations who have worked their career in volume manufacturers say the Model 3 is a huge step forward from anything that they've built. So as we go forward, Elon mentioned Model Y, a big part of our manufacturing capability is going to come from how simple we make our products.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
You may want...
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
How do you manage the people in the interim?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Doug didn't come from Foxconn. He came from Apple and then Ford – Ford and then Apple.
Doug Field - Tesla, Inc.:
The model at Foxconn was very different where very quick product ramps and very high scale was achieved through manual processing of also what is fundamentally a product whose simplicity is orders of magnitude below ours. An iPad is less complicated than our center screen in many ways. So it's a very different order of magnitude in terms of the kind of product you're building and it's extremely manual because that is the way that you have to ramp very quickly, and then end the life of a product and bring up a new one.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Actually, one thing we forgot to mention is John McNeill, who is heading up our sales and service group is departing the company. We wish him well in his future career. And going forward, I will be having the sales and service report directly to me. There are no plans to search for a replacement.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of John Murphy with Bank of America. Your line is now open.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Good afternoon. Shockingly, I want to follow up on the production of the Model 3. So seems like that's going to remain a hot topic here. Do you have enough experience with production of the Model 3 outside of the issues you're facing in the Gigafactory that you're confident once those problems are solved you can get up and running? Or is there sort of a contingency here that once you get that worked out, you'll be ramping up in Fremont and there might be other hurdles that are discovered? I'm just trying to understand if there's any incremental kinks that might come in the production process as you ramp up. And then also, as we think about the step from 5,000 to 10,000, is that something that can be done inside the Fremont factory? It sounds like you're confident that your density is much higher than what even Toyota and GM were producing out there potentially on capacity, but just curious how those two (52:16).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
There's really – there are only two things that I'm aware of that are constraints in production of varying significance. The module being the most significant, and then the parts conveyance, basically the automated conveyance system that brings parts to the lines. The way that the Fremont factory is set up is that there's actually, on the ground floor we actually created two levels. The bottom level is all parts conveyance, parts coming from the warehouse where the parts are sort of automatically stored and then are transferred to an automated conveyance system all the way to the line, the conveyance system being on the ground floor and then raised up to the line which is actually on kind of an artificial mezzanine. And I think we can get 10,000 vehicles a week out of Fremont without a significant – without creating really any new buildings of significance in the existing space. We will need to bring up the south paint shop, which is what we actually were using for S and X paint, and so we upgraded north paint to do S, X and 3. But with relatively small CapEx, like way less than we spent on north paint, we're confident we can bring south paint up to achieve the approximately 600,000 vehicle per year rate. It's a combined 100,000 S and X; 500,000 3, which would be 20% to 30% more than Toyota and GM produced in the same facilities. I mean, we're a lot more vertically integrated as well.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Literally and figuratively, right?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
As we think about that, though, Elon, (54:22) product limit in that plant? Or based on what you're really talking about here, could you get more out of that plant? Or as we look at the Model Y and its million-unit's capacity, we're definitively looking at a new facility?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I'm pretty excited about the Model Y stuff, and I think I want to present that in a more cohesive fashion. It's probably not the next earnings call, but call it six months from now. But I'm really excited about the Model Y manufacturing and the design for manufacturing, like potentially how do we design out all the pain that we're currently going through. We do not want to experience it again. There's really a lot of pain. I would have to say, the pain level is extremely high. I mean, I was in the factory, I was in the Gigafactory on Thanksgiving Day, as were many other Tesla people. It's hardcore, okay? Seven days a week. You are on a (55:24) vacation. So we don't want to repeat that.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
(55:30)
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
And then if I...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
The material flow delivery that Elon mentioned, as we develop very high density and velocity lines, the limit starts to become how we get material to that line. We'll solve that for the Model 3 line, but eventually within three months, the limit to production may be how many trucks we can get in how quickly, both material (55:51).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Look, we use the Hyperloop for that.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Actually...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We are looking at building tunnels, using The Boring Company's thing (56:04), because we have, for example, our seats production is at a separate building on Page. And we have a bunch of trucks moving seats back and forth between both the primary Fremont production and the seat factory. And we actually get constrained on how many trucks can we dock and undock at the seat factory, which is only, I don't know, half a mile or a mile away from the vehicle plant. So it'll be pretty easy to just have a tunnel, do an automated conveyance from seats to the factory. And there are things we can do, where we can build sub-systems and then transport sub-systems to Fremont. These things get increasingly difficult, but they're all doable. But I can see a path where we get to say 600,000 Model 3 production and 100,000 S and X, so maybe 700,000, which should be like almost 50% more than GM or Toyota got out of the plant. I mean that seems achievable.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Can I sneak one in for Deepak? Apologies, Deepak. You did a great job with working capital in the quarter. I mean, I think some of us might kind of throw stones and say it might not be repeatable, but you did it and you got the cash in the door. So it's done and it was like that's some pretty good work here. How repeatable do you think the benefit from working capital is going forward? I mean, is this really just the benefit of negative working capital, and as you ramp up you'll get this cash inflow? And then also as we look at the customer deposits and the ZEV credits, those were two, I think, apparently large cash inflows. I mean, how repeatable do you think those are in the future as well?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Some of those are not repeatable. We significantly reduced the finished goods inventory of S and X in Q4, which will not repeat itself going forward. And that was a huge impact on working capital. Customer deposits may not be as well, as you've pointed out. However, as the Model 3 ramp continues, the negative working capital needs for that, which essentially create extra cash for us will be repeatable. And we'll continue to keep very tight controls on our accounts receivables and everything else we do to manage cash, to make sure we are being efficient.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay. Thank you very much.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Thank you very much. Unfortunately, we're not going to be able to get to everybody. But maybe one last question, please.
Operator:
Our last question comes from the line of James Albertine with Consumer Edge. Your line is now open.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Great. Thank you, and appreciate you sneaking me in. A topic doesn't get asked I think a lot or as much as it should, but we believe is maybe one of the reasons why the Model S and X demand remains so high after many years of production is sort of the over-the-air updatability of these vehicles. I'm just wondering, it had been several quarters ago, kind of pre-Model 3 questions we were hearing more about software you were rolling out to existing customers. Just wondering if you can give us some color on what level of uptake you're seeing. And I would imagine we're not seeing that in the upfront Model S and X margins, but potentially the some sort of – those are vehicles that are earning assets for you in the future of sort of the customer ownership. So if you could kind of talk a little about what trends you're seeing there or elaborate a little on that, that would be helpful.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, I think probably the biggest item is as we get the software right, people upgrading to full self-driving capability of some S and X, and anything with Hardware 2, which is the eight cameras and more advanced ultrasonics and improved compute capability, I think will be capable of the full self-driving. The full self-driving, the Hardware 2 type is also capable of doing easy swap out of the computer, so if it turns out we need additional computing capability to meet the regulatory standards for self-driving, particularly if it's – like we think with the current computer hardware we can get to better than human, but the standard for regulators may be that you need to be five times better than human or something like that. But we believe that is solvable purely with computer hardware. And it would be a relatively minor expense to do that. So I think probably that's the biggest opportunity.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And along the same lines, not all customers take our enhanced Autopilot tool.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And as people hear more, we can see even an uptick on that. So but it's all around Autopilot, to your point.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, exactly. And that's assuming the sort of semi-automated driving doesn't definitely require any hardware upgrades. And that's $5,000 of – that's potentially a software product provided with zero marginal cost and 100% margin. And then when full self-driving is available, we think probably that's more than a $3,000 increment. I think maybe $5,000 increment or something like that.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Is there any data you can provide us though today in terms of the percentage of consumers that are upgrading or opting in, just to get a sense of kind of the order of magnitude, what that business could look like over time?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, that's – well...
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Not many people are opting in at this time.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
For the full self-driving since it doesn't actually work, essentially, people are buying an option on it, on it working in the future.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Right.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So that's a (01:02:23) like trailer. There's also as I mentioned prior things that we expect operate at kind of a shared autonomy fleet where Tesla's kind of like a combination of Uber or Lyft and Airbnb, I guess, like where you can opt to have your car enter a shared fleet or not, and then Tesla can also operate its own fleet in places where there's not enough people sharing their vehicles. So that's a pretty significant opportunity.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Understood. Thank you again.
Martin Viecha - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. I think that's unfortunately all the time we have today. Appreciate all your great questions, and we look forward to talking to you in the next quarter. Thank you very much, and good-bye.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in today's conference. This does conclude the program. You may all disconnect. Everyone, have a wonderful day.
Executives:
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc. Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc. Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc. Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc. Doug Field - Tesla Inc. Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.
Analysts:
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co. Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc. Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc. Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for your patience. You've joined the Tesla Motors Third Quarter 2017 Financial Results Q&A Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later we will conduct a question-and-answer session and instructions will be given at that time. As a reminder, this conference maybe recorded. I would now like to turn the call over to your host, VP of Investor Relations, Mr. Jeff Evanson. Sir, you may now begin.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you, Latiff, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's third quarter 2017 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk; JB Straubel; Deepak Ahuja; and Jon McNeill. Our third quarter results were previously announced in the update letter we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourselves to one question and one follow-up, so we can get to everybody in the queue. Before we jump into the Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So, sorry, one minute, I have a bit of a cold, so, yes I'm actually – we're doing this call from the Gigafactory because that's where the production constraint is for Model 3, the most important thing for the company, and I always move my desk to wherever – well, I don't really have a desk, actually. I move myself to wherever the biggest problem is in Tesla, so I'm at – I really believe that one should lead from the front lines and that's why I'm here. I will go into some of the Gigafactory issues later in the call, but I'd like to start off by acknowledging some I think pretty amazing milestones for Tesla. One thing that I thought was really profound was that we surpassed cumulative deliveries of vehicles. We surpassed a 0.25 million cumulative deliveries since the company's inception and had record Model S and Model X net orders and deliveries last quarter, so things are really going quite well. To put that into perspective, five years ago we had only delivered 2500 cars, so the Tesla fleet has grown by a factor of 100 in five years. I would expect five years from now to be at least an order of magnitude beyond where we are right now and possibly even close to two orders of (3:34) magnitude. But for the skeptics out there, I'd like to say – ask them which one of you predicted that Tesla would go from 2500 units delivered to 250,000 units delivered now. I suspect the answer is zero. So consider your assumptions for the future and whether they're valid or perhaps pessimistic. So for Model 3, we continue to make significant progress each week. We've had no problems with our supply chain or any of our production processes. Obviously, there are bottlenecks. There are thousands of processes in creating the Model 3, and we will move as fast as the slowest and least lucky process among those thousands. In fact, there's 10,000 unique parts, so to be more accurate, there're tens of thousands of processes necessary to produce the car. We will move as fast as the least competent and least lucky elements of that mixture. So while the vast majority are going incredibly well, there are some problem areas. After I give the business overview, I'll do a deep dive into the biggest problem area. So, based on what we know now as we've gotten really into the details of some of the worst bottlenecks, we expect to achieve a production rate of 5,000 Model 3 vehicles per week by late Q1 2018, so probably sometime in March. I think in the grand scheme of things this is a relatively small shift, the Model 3 is a 10-year program, and so we're talking about a few months out of a 10-year program. It's in the grand scheme of things (5:53) net present value calculation, this is immaterial. And we have a clear path to that. We understand the bottlenecks. It's difficult to fully understand these things but we actually try to do them. And it's worth noting that some of our manufacturing areas we're actually seeing capabilities that we estimate in the 6,000 unit to 7,000 unit per week capability, well in excess of the 5,000 unit capability and we're optimistic with further optimization that many of our production processes will meet very little and in some cases no, so I'm not saying no, but almost no CapEx to reach something close to 10,000 units a week. It's remarkable how much can be done by just beating up robots, shortening the path, intensifying (7:05) the factory, adding additional robots at choke points and just making lines go really, really fast. Speed is the ultimate weapon. And the design intent of the Model 3 being that its design manufacturability is turning out to be accurate, it is far easier to build this car than a Model S, and vastly easier than a Model X. The primary production constraint really, by far, is in battery module assembly. So a little bit of a deep dive on that. There are four zones to module manufacturing it goes through four major production zones. The zones three and four are in good shape, zones one and two are not. Zone two in particular, we had a subcontractor, a systems integration subcontractor, that unfortunately really dropped the ball, and we did not realize the degree to which the ball was dropped until quite recently, and this is a very complex manufacturing area. We had to rewrite all of the software from scratch, and redo many of the mechanical and electrical elements of zone two of module production. We've managed to rewrite what was about 20 to 30 man years of software in four weeks, but there's still a long way to go. Because the software working with the electromechanical elements need to be fabricated and installed, and getting those atoms in place and rebuilt is, unfortunately, a lot longer, and has far more external constraints, than software. This is where I spent many a late night on the Gigafactory working on. JB has been here constantly, and we reallocated many of our best engineers to fundamentally fixing zone two of the module line, and then (10:05) is zone one. On the plus side, we now have a very detailed understanding of what is necessary to fix zone one and zone two. We also have a new design for zone one and two that is about three times more effective than the car design. So when we put in – and there are three lines of module production. Lines one, two, and three are essentially identical. Line 4, which will be the new design, will be at triple the effectiveness of – will be as good as the other three lines combined. So we're very confident about a future path of having incredibly efficient production of modules, and that this will not be a constraint in the future but, unfortunately, it just takes some amount of time. This is like moving like lightning compared to what is normal in the automotive industry. There's still some finite amount of time necessary to fix something that we thought was in good shape. We were told by our supplier it was in good shape, but was really not. So this has now been classified (11:31) Tesla's internal automation group in the U.S. – and Tesla Automation U.S. and Tesla Grohmann from Germany, we have a large team from Tesla Grohmann also working the issue, and making very rapid progress. And like I said, I am personally on that line, in that machine, (11:57) personally where I can. And JB is basically spending his life at the Gigafactory. So that's the sort of deep dive on that front. The other thing I want to mention, there are a lot of articles about Tesla firing employees and layoffs (12:20), these are really ridiculous. And any journalist who has written articles to this effect should be ashamed of themselves for lack of journalistic integrity. Every company in the world, there's annual performance reviews. In our annual performance review, despite Tesla having an extremely high standard, a standard far higher than other car companies, which we need to have in order to survive against much larger car companies; you can't be a little guy and have equal levels of skill as the big guy. If you have two boxers of equal ability and one's much smaller, the big guy's going to crush the little guy, obviously. So little guy better have heck of a lot more skill, and that is why – or he (13:11) is going to clobbered. So that is why our standards are high. They're not high because we believe in being mean to people. They're high because, if they're not high, we will die. Despite that, in our annual performance reviews, only 2% of people didn't make the grade. So that's about 700 people out of 33,000. This is a very low percentage. GE, I don't know if they still do, but they certainly for a long time had a policy of firing 10% of their employees performance every year, no matter what. If you were to stack Tesla's performance later releases compared to other companies, the number would be low. So the only reason these articles had any play whatsoever is because journalists and editors with low integrity, they'll provide any context for where they stood (14:11) because the actual article would've read, Tesla fires 2% of its employee base for performance-based reasons, a remarkably lower number compared to other companies. But of course, that would be a meaningless article, so they forget to include that. Shame. And then also, it was not reported that several thousand employees were promoted, and almost half those promotions were in manufacturing. Right. I think, let's move to questions.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay, Latiff, let's go to the question queue, please.
Operator:
Our first question comes from the line of James Albertine of Consumer Edge. Your line is open.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Great. Thank you and good afternoon everyone. I wanted to ask with respect to – and Elon, thank you for doing the deeper dive into the zones and the bottlenecks. How does this change the trajectory or does it change the trajectory from a margin perspective on the Model 3? And then maybe as an aside, can you tell us where you are today on a production per week basis and where you expect to be by the end of 2017, just so we can get an idea of the ramp? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I don't want to go into like the week by week stuff. The reason it's tricky is because people just read too much into it. The ramp curve is a step exponential, so it means like as you alleviate a constraint, the production suddenly jumps to a much higher number. And so, although it looks a little staggered if you sort of zoom out, that production ramp is exponential with week over week increases. I'd like to state a number at the end of Q4, but there's too much uncertainty right now to give that with any precision. Now I do feel confident about the end of Q1, maybe sooner. But really, we're like in a vertical climb here. So it's really hard to say. Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And then also to your earlier point, Deepak here. It does not change any of our projections in terms of the long-term...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
...target gross margin.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Right.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
These are all short-term issues.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean, (17:12) by the end of the year, it will be in the thousands. It's well advanced. Yeah. Yeah.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
I'm sorry, well into the thousands per...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. In the thousands by the end of the year. But where exactly, it's hard to say. And literally, if you move the calendar by, like, two or three weeks, you would see giant changes. So the quarter-to-date will fall somewhat sort of arbitrarily in that exponential curve. So even in a matter of a few weeks which would show a very different number (17:53) people tend to extrapolate on a linear basis instead of an exponential. In fact, most people wouldn't know what exponential is. So (18:07) is it tends to be a straight-line extrapolation, but really on a very steep exponential. So it's really an S-curve. Yeah. So it starts off really slow and then it ramps very rapidly on an exponential basis. It does start to go sort of linear right in the middle and then it sort of asymptotes off at the target production capacity, really target a whole supply chain or factory for a given production capacity. And yeah, trying (18:41) possible. We're highly confident of the long-term margin number of 25% or higher for Model 3. Deepak, I mean...
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. None of our projections in terms of our material cost or manufacturing, legal and overhead or depreciation or the other elements have changed as a result of these last few months to modifying the target.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Okay.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right, we have a lot of people in queue, so let's move on to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Adam Jonas of Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Thanks everybody. Just one question, one follow-up. Elon, you described Model 3, the Model 3 launch as production hell. I mean, you have a cold, but how hot is it in hell right now? And is it getting hotter or less hot? I mean, are we solving more problems than are coming up?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean, (19:41) emphasize what each level means really, but let's say level 9 is the worst, okay? Well, we're in level 9. We're now in level 8 and I think we're close to exiting level 8. I thought we could probably be more like a level 7 by now and I have to tell you, I was really depressed about 3 or 4 weeks ago when I realized that we're kind of in level 9, then we got to level 8, now I can see sort of a clear path to sunshine. And so I feel really pretty optimistic right now. If you talked to me 3 weeks ago, I would have been quite pessimistic and I was sort of quite down in the dumps. But now it's pretty obvious what we need to do. It's just a matter of work to get there, working seven days a week to do it. And I have personally (20:39) zone 2 module line at 2:00 AM on a Sunday morning helping diagnose robot calibration issues. So I'm doing everything I can. JB is doing everything he can. The whole team is on it, we're on it. And we are on it, we've got it covered, it's going to take us a few months longer than we expected.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Got it. Just one follow-up for Deepak. On the secured bonds due 2025 the issuance from last August, was this meant to be a permanent part of the cap structure or is it more a bridge loan to help fund some of the near-term cash absorption issues related to the Model 3 delay and things of that nature? Thanks.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
It is an eight-year tenure on that debt offering and the banks do give us that capital for that timeframe.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right, Latiff. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
The next question comes from Tyler Frank of Baird. Your line is open.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
Hey. It's Ben Kallo from Baird. Elon, you guys talked a lot about the Model 3 being easier to manufacture than the S and the X. Could you just give us a sense about the difference in manufacturing the volume of the three compared to basically 10 times the volume that you're trying to get to in the near term? Then I have a follow-up.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. There's vastly more automation with Model 3. Now the tricky thing is that when one automation doesn't work, it's really harder to make up for it with men and labor. So with S or X, because a lot less that was automated, we could scale up labor hours and achieve a high level of production. With Model 3, it tends to be either the machine works or it doesn't or it's limping along and we get short (22:47) quite severely on output. So yes, I mean, JB do you want to add?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I think you were spot on. The design on the whole is much easier to build but it's also intensely automated, which is part of what lets us realize the margin and the cost targets. But that does become difficult to bring that automation online. That's where we are.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And Doug is on the line, perhaps he can (23:17).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
(23:20) maybe cite a few examples.
Doug Field - Tesla Inc.:
Sure. The number of actual what we call a pitch which is a station for a robot to work on the car in general assembly is about one-fourth of the typical industry average for number of stations it used to build a car. So the way we do subassemblies and the care we've taken and designed for manufacturing does make it much simpler. But as JB said, each of those stations is fairly automated and requires time and engineering to make it work.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
I guess my follow-up's on that point. So, in the battery assembly in automation, things that you're working through in the software for configuring the robots, I'm thinking of this, is it a certain number of man hours that have to go into this to get it fixed, or like you know the fix or what are you throwing at it right now, is it people or is it a time requirement too or all of the above?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, we're throwing a huge amount of people at fixing the machines, and then occasionally there's, like, some part of a production manufacturing process where the machine is permanently broken and then we have to have a bypass to a manual operation.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Until we fix the automation.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, until we fix the automation, but that's really – it's really inefficient because the system is really not designed for a manual bypass to a (25:11) machine or a machine where the software is not right or whatever the case may be.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
It's just an extremely...
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
Got it.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
– extremely complicated machine with combined electrical, mechanical, and software challenges. It's not that different than what we do bringing up a brand-new car.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
Yeah.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
And a lot of the...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It is harder to supplement with manual than S or X because the system is designed as a very tightly integrated automated system. So it's very unwieldy to try to supplement or make up for a machine not working with manual activity. So, we think like – it's like a – if you had a spreadsheet and a couple of cells in the spreadsheet were manually calculated, well, yeah, you could still do your spreadsheet stuff, but it's going to be a lot slower, until the last cell is automated and then it's going to be super fast.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Let's go to...
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc.:
Thank you, guys.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
...the next question, please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Romit Shah of Nomura Instinet. Your line is open.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Great. Thank you and congratulations on the milestone. The competitiveness of Autopilot is something that's come up a lot recently, and I just wanted to ask about your hardware capabilities. We're actually at a technology conference today hosted by NVIDIA and their newest autonomous solution according to NVIDIA is 10x more powerful than the version that Tesla is using and they're saying they can get you to level 5 autonomy and so along those lines the year-over-year improvement in the NVIDIA board just seems really significant, and I was just curious Elon if you could just talk about what you think you need to do from a hardware perspective to advance Autopilot?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, first of all, I think that we will be able to achieve full autonomy with the current hardware. The question is, it's not just full autonomy, but full autonomy with what level of reliability, and what will be acceptable to regulators. But I feel quite confident that we can achieve human level – approximately human level autonomy with the current computing hardware. Now regulators may require some significant margin above human capability in order for a full autonomy to be engaged. They may say, it needs to be 50% safer, 100% safer, 1000% safer, I don't know. I'm not sure they know either. But that's – but I think I'm confident that we can get to approximately human level with our current hardware. And yeah, we'll have more to say on the hardware front soon, we're just not ready to say anything now. But I feel very optimistic on that front. For customers that have signed up for full software capability, we'll push that option. The – if it does turn out that, that a computer upgrade is necessary in order to meet the regulatory requirements in that area, we will replace the computer with something with greater power, which is sort of, unplug the old one, plug the new one in. But we feel confident of the competitiveness of our hardware strategy. I would say that, we are certain that our hardware strategy is better than any other option, by a lot.
Romit Jitendra Shah - Nomura Instinet:
Okay. And if I could ask, you said that the deposit balance for Model 3 strengthened. Can you give us what that actual balance was?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
We don't give specific balance of – for deposits by car line. We just give the combined number, which you can see on our balance sheet for customer deposits.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Latiff, let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Yeah. So our next question comes from John Murphy of Bank of America Merrill Lynch. Your question please.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Good afternoon. Just a question on quarterly cash flow for the fourth quarter and the first quarter. I mean, it sounds like, obviously, there's some delays here on the Model 3, which is understandable, given the complexity. I'm just curious as we think about cash flow for the next two quarters, would we think about them relatively similarly to what we just saw in the third quarter, plus what you would – whatever you would sell out of inventory, so it might be a bit better? I'm just trying to understand, Deepak, how much of that $2.5 billion in inventory is finished goods that you might be able to sell out of in the fourth quarter?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, firstly, as we continue to ramp up Model 3, our cash flow from operations is going to increase or improve significantly over the next few quarters. And it's – this is the positive virtuous cycle of cash flow or working capital that Model 3 provides us, because we effectively pay our suppliers later than we collect from our customers, and also this quarter, our CapEx payments will start to decline as we pay off, over the next couple of quarters, all the remaining Model 3 related CapEx. So there should be an improving trend over the next two quarters, three quarters.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
But to be fair, Deepak, I mean, it sounds like this is a little bit more uncertain than you thought before, as far as production and delivery. So I'm just trying to understand, what kind of cash you can generate out of the inventory that you hold right now?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. So firstly, our inventory is going to come down on S and X, and also, what's important is, it is – given these short-term delays, we have to be prudent in how we spend our money. And so we are managing our CapEx and OpEx growth to be in line with the growth of our fleet. And so, for example, CapEx related to our stores or service centers or Superchargers. We are slowing that down to be in line, and that's logical of the cargo for (32:23) fleet. So all those actions will come through in terms of helping us conserve cash.
John Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay. I'll follow-up with detail later. Thank you.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
All right.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Ryan Brinkman of JPMorgan. Your line is open.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Great. Thanks for taking my question. Just with regard to the ramp-up of the Model 3 production, I can see what's happening with the 5,000 per week target from 1Q to 4Q – or from – now it's 1Q versus 4Q. But I think it's less clear, from reading the letter, what's happening with the previous guidance of the 10,000 units per week at some point in 2018. Is that now like beyond 2018? I think before, investors were estimating that, if you could hit it at the end of 2018, you'd do over 250,000 vehicles. If you could hit it more toward the middle, you'd do over 325,000. But what now would be a reasonable expectation, based upon what you know, for the Model 3s that do get built in 2018?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's a bit too early to make (33:29). But I mean, if you extrapolate from 5,000 units towards the end of Q1, we do want to call upon significant CapEx until we are confident about cash flow on Model 3, so then that's a question of how long it takes to implement. I mean, that's where you get to 10,000 units a week for Model 3, which is a number we are confident can be sustained from a drive (34:01) standpoint.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And we want to figure out how much we can push the 5,000 up from the existing...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. That's true.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And then learn from those, and figure out, how do we redesign whatever we do over the next (34:05) spend more efficiently our CapEx. So, it's the right thing to do.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly. As we mentioned earlier, we're finding that some parts of the line very clearly are capable of 6,000 or 7,000 units a week, and maybe more than that, just by shortening path length, speeding up the robots, adding some robots where the chokepoints exist, simplifying some of the processes, and a few minor part redesigns, it's remarkable how much you can improve cycle time. So...
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay. Actually, that's helpful.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Maybe just as a follow-up...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
No, go ahead.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Oh, I was just going to say, is the gross margin discussion also related to this at all? I mean, I see the reduced outlook for 4Q. But do you feel any differently about, for example, the ability to do 25% margin when you're doing kind of 250,000 run rate? And as long as the production is going to be restrained, do you have any ability to continue to preference for longer maybe the higher-margin, higher trim level variance of the Model 3, to help with that?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
We can fine-tune those things when we get there, but overall, our – and I'm reinforcing this again, these are all short-term issues, and it doesn't change our long-term prognosis on Model 3 gross margin.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay. Great.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Latiff, let's go to the next questioner, please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Alex Potter of Piper Jaffray. Your question please.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Yeah, thanks very much. I was wondering, I guess, to the extent that these production bottlenecks are ultimately somebody else's fault, is it worth your time trying to claw back some of the costs that you're presumably incurring due to the subcontractor, I guess, dropping the ball, as you put it?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. I think, first of all, I think at the end of the day, everything is our fault – and my fault most of all. If we pick the wrong subcontractor, we're the fault. So, I don't want to – just to be externalizing responsibility, really it's our fault for picking the wrong supplier and then not realizing it until way late in the game. We will be able to claw back some amounts, but it certainly will not make up for lost revenue, lost free cash flow. So – some amount, yeah, but it's not going to matter that much.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
The goal is right now to fix the problem.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Okay. Fair enough. I guess, one other issue you referenced a gross margin headwind on the S and X due to trim and mix. Was wondering, if you could talk maybe a little bit more explicitly about what that was. And then what the corrective measures you taking to address that?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Jon can answer that.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, this is Jon, I can address a piece of this. So a large chunk of it was discontinued trims. We've introduced the 100-kilowatt battery pack, which has a 335-mile range in Model S. And as a result of that, we discontinued the 90-kilowatt pack. And as those cars were in inventory, we reduced price to move them out. And so that was a piece of the gross margin headwind that won't repeat as we go forward. And in addition to that, the mix did shift. We sold more 100-kilowatt cars, actually, than we predicted we would, but order rate went up for the 75's even faster. And so we sold more 75-kilowatt cars in the mix than we predicted, and that had a gross margin impact as well. Given demand is – it continues to increase for the 100-kilowatt pack and the mix shift is occurring more towards that product. We'll see as we indicated in the letter, increasing margins as we roll into Q4 and then into Q1. So this is – the heart of the discontinuation really was the success of us debottlenecking the 100-kilowatt production we talked about in Q2 and really rolling that into strong demand in Q3.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. We also just increased the amount of value that's in a Model S and...
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
And with X.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, and X, but particularly Model S, because we're hoping there to be greater differentiation between the S and Model 3. So the base – the fundamental cost of a Model S increased because of more included content. So the full Model S have air suspension, for example, yes, much of the premium elements were included by default, just because there needs to be a clearer the reason for people to buy a Model S or a Model 3.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
And the market responded really strongly to that in terms of demand. So in Q3, the Model S in the U.S. outsold the Mercedes S Class by two times – over two times actually. And if you added up the sales of Audi A7 and A8, the BMW 7 series and Porsche Panamera, we outsold all those, combined.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
So the market really did respond to the increased value.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. And all of our deliveries came down, so our market share in the U.S., it went up in Q3 for S and X.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
S & X both?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
That's right.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Compared to Q2.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And I saw some of the articles from our quarterly earnings letter about sort of question kind of S and X, why we reduced production on S and X. We didn't reduce it very much. It's just sort of from about 2,000 units a week to 1,800, and we did that in order to breakdown (40:39) inventory. So just because inventory was too high. We also just needed much people on Model 3 line. So we thought we will take the third shift from Model S and the X, and apply it to Model 3. Because really, running out of the labor pool, honestly. It's like we're a second labor pool dry both in Gigafactory and in Fremont. And so it's like – yes. It's just so many people that can make it to the Gigafactory. And then we're all finding that we're able to improve the efficiency of production of the S and X. Previously it required three shifts to do 2,000 units a week. And so – I just want to appreciate like the whole supply chain, and everything -- it's all sized to 2,000 units a week. So likes they're walking spontaneously make 2,500 units a week because the entire supply chain all the parts, everything's going to go to 2,500 and that requires a bunch of CapEx, then you got to match, can imagine sort of increased stores everything is going to increase. So sort of like decide on what seems like the right number, sort of the right numbers about 100,000 units a year combined S and X, and resize the supply chain accordingly. But we expect to continue making production efficiency improvements on the S and X line and be able to take that from 1,800 units a week to 2,000 units a week in probably over the next year. And still be on two shifts, which is labor hours are reducing per vehicle and that gets us to our sort of roughly 100,000 units a year week cadence and we can work on supply chain efficiencies and the like. But we do expect to – and one point, we expect to sell more cars in Q4 than we did in Q3. So we expect sales and deliveries to be higher in Q4 than Q3. But to reduce Model S and X inventory, to achieve that.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay, next question please.
Operator:
Next question comes from Rod Lache of Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Hi, everybody. Just had a question about how we should be thinking about capital spending maybe at a high level next year. It sounds like you're going to be deploying some capital to increase to 10,000 units per week. And obviously there've also been some reports about you investing in another assembly facility in China. So is your CapEx still expected to be lower in 2018 versus 2017?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
So, Rod, in terms of the China factory, I'll leave for Elon to make comments on that. But I think it may be better if we hold on, broadly speaking, to that question to the next quarter when we provide full 2018 guidance and give you better clarity on our capital spend for the different elements in our plan.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I suspect it's comparable and similar, honestly, to 2017. We have some – obviously some – it's somewhat of a strategic choice. Do we have higher CapEx and higher growth or lower CapEx and lower growth? Yeah, so it's – but we can – we can move that lever wherever it makes sense, where it makes sense to do so. As I mentioned earlier though we want to make sure we know what to scale before we spend money on it. So for the Model 3, figuring out which production lines can be simply accelerated and which production lines need to be duplicated, we'd far rather accelerate a production line than duplicate it. If we were to make those CapEx decisions right now, we'd be making them – we're kind of shooting in the dark.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
But in respect to China, I wouldn't expect any significant CapEx on China until 2019. It won't be material in 2018.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
The China plant is sort of something like – this is just a like don't say (45:59), but it's sort of a rough target of start of production in about three years and it would be serving the China market and perhaps some other countries in the region and that's really the intent, is to be able to provide Model 3 and Model – won't be making Model S and Model X, but we'll be making probably Model 3, probably Model Y primarily for the local Chinese market and it's really the only way to make the cars affordable in China, but it's three years out, so.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
And just to clarify two points. Is your objective to have something that's kind of three-month sized in China? And I wanted to also clarify your earlier comment about when exactly the production of Model 3 goes exponential. Were you suggesting that that...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Exponential, right now.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Is that why – I guess, yeah off of a low number but are you getting to a few thousand per week already by the end of this year or did you mean to say that you'll have a few thousand produced in total by the year-end?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Oh, no, no. Again, it's really tricky because of that being exponential. If you were to move the calendar date by plus or minus a few weeks, you'd see gigantic differences in weekly output. But what I meant is something like a few thousand units per week at the end of Q4.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
But there's (47:56), if you said okay, what about a few weeks after Q4? I'd say, yeah, definitely. So, it's just going to be very, very – rising very, very sharply at that time.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
To be clear, Elon is not going to provide guidance. He's just giving – you are giving...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
This is my guess.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It will be (48:16) vertical climb here, it's like – from one moment to the next (48:22).
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
It sounds like you'll be able to provide some pretty high confidence update on the fourth quarter earnings call.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
For sure. Yes. Absolutely.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Even with the deliveries announcements, we'll have some feedback for you as we mentioned...
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. Great.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. We'll have very good understanding and high clarity on the Q4 earnings call.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. And then the China size, is this a Fremont type of project?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean, it's something in the hundreds of thousands of vehicles per year. I'm not sure where it is exactly in the – it's at least a couple of hundred thousand vehicles a year, maybe more.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. Great. Thank you.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. That's all you will get out of him. Thanks. Next question, please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Toni Sacconaghi of Bernstein. Your line is open.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Yes. Thank you. I have a question and a follow-up, please. Elon, you just talked about sort of this trade-off between growth and capital spending. And quite frankly, I think it's really the first time that I've heard you talk about that potential trade-off. Usually, Tesla's been all about doing as much as quickly as possible to lead the move to electrification, to establish a first-mover advantage, et cetera. So is the hesitancy in going all-out growth, is that a concern that you might run out of cash and have to raise more cash? Is that a bandwidth concern for the organization in terms of trying to do too much, too quickly? Is that a concern about using capital effectively? What's at the root of that decision? And why is there even a decision, I guess, is the question.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I would say that it's probably a bit of both. I mean it's prudent for us to think through all of that as we are continuing to grow. Certainly, we want to be in a certain sense of fiduciary responsibility that we have in addition to just growing like crazy. So...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean these are mad substantial (50:56) growth rates for the auto industry. I think we made some comparison of Tesla growth rate relative to Ford in the Model T era, and we're talking about a rate of growth faster than the Model T, which is the fastest in history. So these are nutty growth rates.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
It's really not the first time we've thought about this.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. We have talked about that. And our growth rate, I don't recall the exact numbers, but I think it's been in the 70%, 80% every year. And next year even at 5,000, it will be like crazy compared to this year. So growth rate continues to be extraordinary.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Yes. Our growth rate continues that anything like that in the coming years I mean, if it continues to be something like that, Tesla will be the largest car company in the world by volume as well.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean, Toni, it may be helpful, it accelerates with new product introductions too. Model X reached Model S demand rates in half the time, so twice the rate of demand build, so not only are we growing but we're accelerating as we grow.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly, Model 3 will be I'd call it five times – it will be five times Model S...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
And if you look at the timing and it's order of magnitude shifts a bit downward. Yeah.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
I guess, the question is...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
(52:32).
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
But really perhaps to punctuate a little bit more, you've talked about pretty soon you're going to be close to cash flow generative once you get the volume on the Model 3. And so I'm just surprised why you're actually not trying to step on that as quickly as possible because ostensibly once you get to that level, then cash flow really doesn't become a problem. And so, is there any difference in that view? Otherwise I'm just struggling to sort of reconcile why you don't want to get to scale, get to volume, get to positive operating cash flow, as quickly as possible?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Just to be clear, we are trying to get as fast as we can to 5,000, and then we will work as fast as we can to get to 10,000.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Yes.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I don't think we were saying we wouldn't do it. We were just saying we would think through it and make the strategic trade-offs, in terms of timing. But we'd think through it.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
(53:40)
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean sort of like (53:42) interpretations of time scales. For us, it's like, well, should we have the growth to 10,000, be – take 9 months, 12 months or 15 months?
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Okay. Fair enough.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
So these are like flash-in-the-pan timescales for other manufacturers.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Right. Okay. If I could just follow up on a separate topic, on the Model S and Model X gross margins, they look like they must have fallen materially, unless Model 3 gross margins were worse than minus 1000%, so maybe you can help us understand what Model S and Model X gross margins were this quarter and, given most of the one-time stuff has gone and the mix shift is favorable, why wouldn't they snap back to be similar or better next quarter? And do you think that the promotional activity helped drive volume for Model S and Model X this quarter?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, I mean, firstly, your analysis is completely off from what we see internally, and the mix shift that we saw, part of that continues in Q4.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, largely because we're largely custom orders, so those orders were placed in Q3 that we will ship in Q4.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And then as we continue to achieve efficiencies and also work on that mix shift, which takes time, we will continue to see improvement, and have full confidence in Model S and Model X gross margin.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. The (55:25) cars being sold in Q4 are inventory rundown and some, you know, particularly in (55:31) older models...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Service loaners.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
...the service loaners, and those grow slightly lower, average like less than a custom order vehicle, that has a point or two effect on gross margin. But yeah, I mean, it should get back to the mid-20s, essentially, in Q4.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Okay. Thank you.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Next question please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Brian Johnson of Barclays. Your line is open.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes. Thank you. Want to just drill down on the service revenue and expenses line, not something we often talk about, but a lot of the other questions have been asked. Looks like year-over-year revenues were up $180 million, costs were up $247 million. Could you just talk about the drivers of that change, between what's left of the drivetrain outsource business, the CPO business, the service loaner actual vehicles expense, and then the cost of the PP&E for the actual people and service infrastructure?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. I think what you see there is, the increase in PP&E for the service infrastructure we wanted to get out in front of demand as we're increasing both Model S and Model X fleet size, and also Model 3. So we opened a location just about every four days in Q3. And to get ahead of that demand, you probably saw that we put 180 mobile vehicles on the road. And we plan to double that this quarter. And so a lot of that, what you see, is PP&E. In terms of the drivetrain, the drivetrain issue that you mentioned, that's mostly behind us; in fact, we see very little of that now. The reliability for Model S and Model X continues to improve, and you asked about the CPO business. The CPO business, for us, last year – or last quarter was about a $238 million revenue business. We expect that to grow to $1 billion run rate – or $1 billion business for all of 2017. And so that business is growing rapidly at the same time. And we're running those – we do our own CPO refurbishment. We do that in the same service infrastructure that we're servicing the cars. So you see a little bit of that cost into that line as well.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. And my follow-on for Deepak, probably, is, can you walk us through the depreciation when you produce, for example, in second quarter, those 100 P100D cars Mr. Musk talked about going into the loaner fleet? How do those get depreciated while they are in the loaner fleet? And when they're transferred to be sold, what's the accounting on that?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. They are capitalized as inventory, because these cars are salable. And when these cars get sold, the depreciation related to those cars gets recognized in COGS.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. So it's not in the cost of the service centers?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
No.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Right. Okay. Thanks.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Next question, please.
Operator:
The next question comes from Joseph Spak of RBC Capital Markets. Your question please.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Hi, thank you. You also mentioned some constraints in bodyshop, welding and final assembly. And final assembly, obviously, makes sense given constraints elsewhere. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about welding. And then, as you get to your year-end run rate, is there still going to be a discrepancy between sort of different parts of the entire line? Or do you think everything is going to be roughly at the same level?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Doug, would you like to take that on?
Doug Field - Tesla Inc.:
Well with respect to welding, the rate is controlled by – are you specifically asking about the video, or do you have another...
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
I'm sorry. In the letter, it said bodyshop welding, it listed as a constraint.
Doug Field - Tesla Inc.:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
(59:56). Yeah.
Doug Field - Tesla Inc.:
No, it is not the same constraint. It's not the same level of constraint as the Gigafactory, but it is one of the more complex parts of the overall assembly line. So to reach our overall production goals, that has to ramp significantly. But again, it's not at the same level of constraint as modules. And it's really driven just by the sheer number of robots in the bodyshop. It's the highest concentration of robots anywhere in our overall production line. But it is coming up well. The bodies that we're building are of excellent quality. We've had fantastic crash results in testing them. And we're building more and more every day. We're ahead of the rest of the production curve.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Okay. And then, as a follow-up on the capital question. Elon, I think a year ago on this call, you said to go from 5 to 10 would require a fair amount of capital. But you were confident that it would be less than going from 0 to 5, and now that you have some real-world experience with the ramp, I'm wondering if you have any different views or if you could put a little bit of a finer point on that comment?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. I mean, we actually feel even more strongly that our efficiency of CapEx on the next phase will be significant compared to the first phase.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, absolutely. Some elements will require almost no CapEx. It really comes to realize that the – you really want to make a factory that grows incredibly fast. Like really I think speed is the ultimate weapon when it comes to innovation or production. And we are pushing robots to the limit in terms of the speed that they can operate at, and asking our suppliers to make robots go way faster, and they are shocked because nobody has ever asked them that question. It's like if you can see the robot move, it's too slow. We should be caring about air friction like things moving so fast. You should need a strobe light to see it. And that's incredibly critical to CapEx efficiency. And obviously we're going to be designing a lot of the robotic elements and what makes the robots internally. So yes, because current (1:02:22) suppliers are just too slow to respond in some cases.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay, we have 10 more questions in the queue so we're obviously not going to get to everybody. Elon, do you want to take just a couple more?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Next question, please, Latiff.
Operator:
The next question comes from Colin Rusch of Oppenheimer. Your line is open.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Thanks so much. Could you talk about the percentage of sales that are coming from these loaners of the fleet vehicles? We're trying to reconcile the MSRP declines that you implemented and what it looks like is a little bit more severe ASP decline. And then also, if you could talk a little bit about why you felt that it was necessary to add value to the Model S and Model X while lowering price? It seems like you should be able to drive volumes with one or the other.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. I think to the first question I would say it's roughly about 5%.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Very low single-digit in terms of the service loaner sales as a percentage of total units.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. As far as the prices, Model X was always – it was really the one that saw more of a price reduction than other things. And then 100-kilowatt hour pack, the 100-kilowatt pack cars was artificially priced high because we have like really production constraint on that pack. It was never our intention to price them quite that high, so we reduced it a little bit. And then added some content S to both. So we sort of split it between some price reductions where we thought things were a little overpriced, and then added some content just to have a clear differentiation. We weren't quite sure what the response would be to the Model 3. So maybe we might have overcorrected a little bit, but that's kind of where it is.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Okay. And then just moving to the China strategy. Obviously, with the permanent magnet requirements for the DC motor for the Model 3 and what we've seen historically with export restrictions in China and improved environmental enforcement in terms of mining practices, how important is that to the strategy of moving into China and maintaining your supply lines for the growth of the Model 3?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
I think we think about China more from a demand side than anything. We're building complete cars and we're shipping them across the ocean and into the largest electric vehicle market in the world. So what really pulls us into China primarily is to be able to supply that market. And to make the cars more affordable, as Elon said, so that we're not forcing consumers to experience tariffs if you bring those cars in. That's a much bigger impact than I think the supply chain or sourcing materials issue.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Next question?
Operator:
The next question comes from Rob Cihra of Guggenheim. Your line is open.
Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC:
Great. Thank you very much. I recognize it's not the biggest focus right now, but just curious on solar declining as you had expected. But just wondering when you think that can start growing again. Is that a function of Solar Roof? Or is that sort of moving past your sales changes? And then, I guess, similarly on energy storage, the ramp, sort of exiting this year into 2018, is that constrained by Model 3? Or is that on its own separate track? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. We do expect the solar demand to rebound as we move solar sales into all of our stores, which is a much more efficient channel for demand generation. And that's just what sort of conventional solar. The Solar Roof stuff, we expect is going to be – we're confident it's going to have extremely high demand. And we're just going through the validation process for the solar tiles. And they're working right now, I should point out. So I have the Solar Roof tiles on my house. And I didn't even notice that they're there that they blend in so well. So look really good but a roof is expected to last a long time, at least 25, 30 years. And so there's certain rate at which we can do accelerated lab testing on (1:07:38) components and maybe try to accelerate lab testing on a 30-year roof in sort of six months, but it's hard to do it less than about six months and then we got to pack that into the production process. So I have no doubt that this will be a very significant part of the business down the road. It just takes a little while to get those behemoth rolling, but once it gets rolling, it's going to be a behemoth.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
And we continue to install pilot engineering in early customer homes. We continue the cadence for that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. You have one in your house. Your house in the....
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. And JB has installed one and quite a few others at this point, 1 to 10 (1:08:26). And we still are on track to turn on most of the production line in Buffalo at the end of this year to start ramping final actual production versus this in the final factory.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
And maybe to your about the separation for Model 3, those production areas are largely separate.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
(1:08:48) for the pack size.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, storage versus vehicles. The energy storage production is actually growing at the really – actually doing really well by our ability to complete the South Australia project or be on track to complete that, that's...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
In Puerto Rico.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
As well as the deployments in Puerto Rico and elsewhere in the Caribbean. That's been running at nominal rate and doing quite well. So those are quite separate.
Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC:
Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And down the road, there will be some cell conflict. I think if you sort of fast forward a year or two, we really need to think about cell production as being a constraint and (1:09:17) going into cell production (1:09:20) couple of years out, making sure that we have (1:09:24) cobalt – because it's actually – not a lot of cobalt, I meant to say nickel...
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Nickel, graphite, (1:09:53) aluminum.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah, separator like (1:09:54).
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
The module lines that we're operating to assemble the cells into modules are totally separate.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
So this Model 3 line that we're focused on right now and improving quickly but the energy module line in the same building for instance now is a totally separate line.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. I think that's, unfortunately, all the time we have today. Appreciate all your great questions and we look forward to talking to you next quarter. Goodbye.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference. Thank you for your participation and have a wonderful day.
Executives:
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc. Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc. Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc. Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc. Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.
Analysts:
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc. Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC Colin Langan - UBS Securities LLC Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc. Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd. Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co. Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla Second Quarter 2017 Financial Results Q&A Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session, and instructions will follow at that time. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would now like to introduce your host for today's conference, Mr. Jeff Evanson. Mr. Evanson, you may now begin.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you, Shree, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's Second Quarter 2017 Q&A Webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk; JB Straubel; Deepak Ahuja; and Jon McNeill. Our Q2 results were announced 80 minutes ago in the update letter we published at the same link as this webcast. During this call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These comments are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. During the question-and-answer portion of today's call, please limit yourselves to one question and one follow-up. But before we jump into the Q&A, Elon has some opening remarks. Elon?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
[Technical Difficulty] (1:35 – 10:41)
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Thank you. All right. We apologize, everyone. Elon, over to you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Thank you. My apologies. We actually tried a new audio system with a bunch of individual mics that seems to have malfunctioned, so we went back to our standard conference call object. Anyway, I just want to confirm people can hear what I'm saying? Okay. Great. So first of all, I want to say that Friday night was an amazing time for Tesla. It was one of the most important days in the history of the company. It's something we've been striving for, for 14 years. It's the car that we – the Model 3 having with us steady production of Model 3s (11:36) was an incredible milestone in the company's history. We wanted to make a great, affordable electric car which is a fundamental thing that is missing. We wanted to make that from day one, and if we could only have done it sooner, we would have. And I'm glad that this day has come. What we have ahead of us, of course, is an incredibly difficult production ramp. Nonetheless, I think we've got a great team, and I'm very confident that we will be able to reach a production rate of 10,000 vehicles per week towards the end of next year. And we remain – we believe on track to achieve a 5,000 unit week by the end of this year. So, I would simply urge people to not get too caught up in what exactly falls within the exact calendar boundaries of a quarter, one quarter or the next, because when you have an exponentially growing production ramp, slight changes of a few weeks here or there can appear to have dramatic changes, but that is simply because of the arbitrary nature of when a quarter ends. But what people should absolutely have zero concern about is that Tesla will achieve a 10,000 unit production week by the end of next year. So, if you can sort of see where we came from, the Roadster – we were making only 600 units a week where the non-powertrain portion of the car was made by Lotus. And we did the powertrain and final assembly of the car, and then we went from that to 20,000 units a year of the Model S, a far more complex car, where we did the whole thing. And then with Model 3, we are more vertically integrated. I think people should really not have any concerns that we will reach that outcome from a production rate. We're also very confident about costs. We feel we gained a lot of experience. We certainly aspire to learn from the mistakes of the past, and I think we largely have. Deepak will go into some of our margin expectations there. And unlike, say, for example, the Model X, where the mistake that we made, and I obviously take the prime responsibility here, was having far too much advanced technology in version one of our product. Model X is an incredible car, but it was overreaching for the first-generation of the product. In the case of Model 3, we're strived hard to simplify and make sure that it has everything essentially to be a fantastic car. If you see the reviews, the reviews are – one could not ask for better reviews. And I just thought I'd give you one little anecdote, which was – which I found quite surprising is that when we were giving test drives to – or the journalists were driving the car and doing test drives. About 80% of the journalists said that they would buy the car themselves. Most of the remaining 20% said probably. This is crazy. I've never seen anything like it. So this is a very good sign. It should also be noted that one of our big concerns was that Model S, particularly, and Model X demand would suffer with the introduction of the Model 3. In fact, this has turned out to be the opposite situation. Model S and Model X demand increased with the release of Model 3. Jon, would you like to just elaborate on that? We did express this as a concern.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And it was a big concern, but it has turned out to be a pleasant surprise.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. I think that's right. Not only as Elon said, we expressed it is a concern. We had positive comps, both year-over-year and quarter-over-quarter in orders in the second quarter. But since then, orders have accelerated in July as we noted in our shareholder letter. And they've accelerated further since the hand-over event on Friday for the Model 3. So, it clearly shows that S and X as our flagship products have a strong position in the market and strong demand. And that's super encouraging that we've got a strong product lineup with three cars that are proving to be very popular in their individual segments.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. In fact, I don't know – I think we mentioned some of this in the earnings letter, but just some of the key stats on, say, July orders for S and X were...
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. July orders were 15% higher than our Q2 average weekly order rate, so we accelerated off of Q2 into July.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
And as we noted in the shareholder letter, deliveries grew by 53% compared to the Q2 2016 in a flat luxury vehicle market, so we're gaining share...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
In a flat-to-down market, and the order has accelerated.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So July was one of our best months ever.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Again, contrary to our expectations, I want to emphasize. Of course, who knows if this will continue, but all indications are that it will. So that's very exciting.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
A side note, we're making great progress on our internal Autopilot software. It's getting better and better. I'm really, really excited. I test drive the latest development release as soon as it comes out, and I'm like this is really getting to be something special. Yes, it's really, and I think it's going to accelerate from here. And the talent that we're seeing join on the technical side for Autopilot is really world-class. I don't think there's – it's unmatched anywhere, I would say. So, let's see, Model 3 net orders are – there's not that many cancellations – about 1,800 a day. I want to emphasize you can't see the car, unless you want to look at pictures online. You can't test drive a car. You have to put down a $1,000 deposit.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
We're not promoting the car.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We're not promoting the car. If you go to our stores, we don't even want to talk about it, really, because we want to talk about the thing that we can supply. If somebody orders a Model 3 now, it's probably late next-year before they get it. We want to give people a car where it's, in fact, maybe a one- or two-month wait for an S or an X. I think the point that we're trying to make is that the S is still a superior sedan. It seems to have come through, and that's true. Things got a little confusing because of the nomenclature of being Model 3 versus Model S and X, which was, I guess, sort of my fault, being too clever for my own good there, because especially the Model E, as you can tell, I have a wonderful sense of humor. But then people mistook that for generation three, but in fact, if you look at, say, what we're really on right now? I would say is approximately generation four. We're on generation four of S, X and 3. At the risk of really confusing matters. Model 3 is generation four, but so are S and X. We evolve the technology all at the same time. So overall, looking really good. And then Solar Roof – we have installed and working the Solar Roof tiles. I have it on my house. JB has it on his house. I think we included some of the pictures in the earnings letter. I want to emphasize that there's no Photoshopping on the roof. That is actually how it looks, and it wasn't taken by some – it was take some pics with your phone and send them over. That's what we're talking about here, not some special lighting conditions, pro-photographer situation. And this is version one, and I think this roof's going look really knockout as we just keep iterating. Now it is a very challenging technical task to get this right, get the costs good, streamline the installation process, ramp up the production. Again, this is sort of follows a similar S-curve to vehicles where it starts up very slow, but then it grows exponentially. Also, our conventional solar is doing quite well and generating significant positive cash flow – just standard flat panel stuff, which, I think, is still the right solution for any kind of flat roof situation, which is most commercial installations in a lot of houses, or some part of the roof where it's really not visible and therefore, doesn't really matter from an aesthetic standpoint. And then, batteries – also making great progress on the battery front. I'm hoping to do something around the International Astronautical Congress, which is in Adelaide this year. Not promising anything, but we're aspirationally going to have a very substantial portion of the battery pack, already done in about eight weeks, which is hard because we have all the shipping and logistics challenges of getting things across the Pacific. Not promising anything. It's an aspirational goal. Team's working super hard to make it happen. But I'm excited about the prospect, and I feel, of course, optimistic that that will take place. So, yes, I think and we're really proud of the Tesla team for getting to this point. And I really want to thank the whole Tesla team, and we already have 33,000 people at this point, for working hard to achieve some very difficult things. And I can be prouder to work with such a great team. So, let me go to – anything else you want to add, guys? All right. Let's go to questions.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Shree, let's open it up to Q&A. And everybody in Q&A, we have a lot of people in queue, so Shree's going to be real hard core on the one question, one follow-up.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Not the, one question with eight nested questions.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Correct. No nesting.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. But as one question part A through H.
Operator:
Thank you. Our first question comes from James Albertine with Consumer Edge Research.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Very good. Thank you for taking my question. Good afternoon, and congratulations on the first 30 deliveries last week. It was a great event.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
I wanted to ask if I may, my one question on capital expenditures. Wanted to get an idea, what comes next with respect to some of your spending on the Model 3? And I guess, if I can nest one in, related to (25:23).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Oh, God. You know what? Fine. Do it. You know. Fine.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
It's one question on CapEx. But really want to understand what the big next steps are in 3Q and 4Q as we start to kind of build-out our models and figure out from there? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Certainly. I mean, I do want to emphasize like but a lot of us is actually very hard for us to know. When we make mistakes is because we're stupid, not because we're trying to mislead anyone. I just want to emphasize – I – we aspire to be less dumb over time. So if I knew it, I would tell you. It's sort of like I've got this, like secret hand of cards that I'm holding close to my vest and I'm not telling you. It's just fundamentally impossible to predict the exponential part of the manufacturing S-curve. It's crazy hard. And S-curve is a simplification because it's really running through a series of constraints that, if you – it's like a really jagged sort of upward growth and it'll plateau and then it'll grow rapidly, and it'll plateau again. And then sometimes it'll go backwards because something broke. Yes. When I said manufacturing hell and supply-chain hell on Friday. I meant it. I mean, we know this. Signed up for it. Not blaming hell because when we bought the ticket. So but I think at a high level, I don't think we should expect any significant negative surprises. There will be – as usual be the case, there tends to be some cost growth in CapEx for unexpected things. So we've got to expedite this, you've got to fix that, or this supplier doesn't work out, or this machine we bought doesn't work out. And you've got to be all hands on deck 24/7 to fix it or replace it. But I don't expect any significant – I think that is relatively contained. Deepak, do you want to...
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, I think maybe the other way, James, to answer your question is.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
You need to talk to close with this.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. I think you're asking where we are spending the money. I think it's in the completion of the Model 3. We are bidding-off on the equipment.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Right. We are.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. And also, we are just continuing with the construction of Gigafactory to continue to scale that. And so that's where the majority of our CapEx...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Overwhelmingly.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Listed there. Overwhelmingly.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Overwhelming (28:14).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Overwhelmingly is Model 3. Obviously, there are expenditures associated with the Solar Roof and with our Buffalo factory.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Correct.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We're trying to keep those relatively light for the next few months.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
In the marketing and sales, we're growing our infrastructure there and our Supercharger networks. Those are the other smaller piece.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Just on the Buffalo front – I really want to emphasize, we expect the Buffalo Gigafactory to be a powerhouse of solar panel and solar glass tile output. It is going be a kick-ass facility. We have made that commitment to the State of New York. We are going to keep that commitment. And then, we're also thinking hard about, where do we put Gigafactorys three, four, five and six? We expect to keep the majority of our production in the U.S., but it's, obviously, going to make sense to establish a Gigafactory in China and Europe to serve the markets there, because it's not to build cars (29:23) in California and truck them halfway around the world, particularly when you're trying to make things as affordable as possible – that really hurts. We really want to make our cars as affordable as possible. And so that does require some amount of local market production, particularly for the mass market vehicles in order to make it as accessible as possible. So we're thinking hard about that. I think we'll have some announcements on at least a few of those locations before the end of the year, but we don't expect to spend significant money on them. It's just identifying the location, doing the long-lead time stuff, the permits, the planning. This doesn't cost a lot of money. It's only when you really start moving dirt and putting up concrete and steel and buying equipment that the big money starts to be required. Yes. So anything you want to add on that?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
No. That's good.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. And CapEx on Model S and X, it's not really – it's minor compared to the next.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
The next.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. There is continued improvement, of course, to keep pace with the Model 3s. So that all of our products are at the same level of technology, but it's more painless (30:42) compared to the Model 3.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And we're continuing to achieve cost reductions on S and X, so there's a bit of investment, but negligible.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Exactly. Absolutely. And in cases where we see cost reductions on S and X – those are the cases where we want to pass along some of those cost reductions to customers. So overall, we're feeling really – this is maybe the best I've ever felt about Tesla, to be frank. Last week, stressed the hell out of me, but I really think that this is probably the best I've ever felt about the company. Oh, and one thing I wanted to correct. I think in a prior call, we publicly had said that Model Y, or our compact SUV – it's called Model Y. It may or may not be – would be a totally new architecture. Upon the council of my executive team – thank you. Thanks, guys – who reeled me back from the cliffs of insanity – much appreciated – the Model Y will in fact be using a substantial carryover from Model 3 in order to bring its market faster. Yes. So that will really accelerate our ability to get to Model Y to market faster, because fundamentally people prefer a sedan, people prefer an SUV. And in fact, the SUV market is larger. It's the biggest single product (32:35) I believe in the world. So, I'd like to thank my executive team for stopping me from being a fool, and yes. The Model Y or whatever the hell will have relatively low technical and production risk as a result. I still think we want to do the crazy thing in the future, but we will punt that until after the compact SUV. Anything else you think I should add?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
No. That's great. (33:06)
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. We'll probably have as much time for questions as we can. We had a lot of operational issues to get back to, like to work on that manufacturing ramp, and I'm always incredibly grateful for anyone who is an investor in Tesla, and you put your faith in us. We will do whatever is necessary to reward that faith.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Shree. Why don't we go to the next question, please?
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Rod Lache with Deutsche Bank.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Thanks. I was going to ask you which is harder, AI or AV, but I think at this point we may not know the answer.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, as you know, I'm terrified of AI.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
I've read that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. You may have read that off a few places. And it's just something we – anyway, I definitely don't want to derail the conversation on that front.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Right.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's just something that I think, anything that represents – that is a risk to the public at least insight from the government, because one of the mandates of the government is the public well-being. And that insight is different from oversight, so at least the government gained insight to understand what's going on, and then decide what rules are appropriate to ensure public safety. That is what I'm advocating for. I'm not advocating for that we stop the development of AI, or any of the sort of straw man, hyperbole things that have been written. I do think there are great benefits to AI. We just need to make sure that they're indeed benefits, and we don't do something really dumb.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. Well, I hope that doesn't count against my Tesla questions. But the two things I was going to ask you were you mentioned in the letter this confidence in getting the 25% margin on Model 3. Could you just mention what the level of production is that you feel you need to get to in order to get there? What run rate? And, secondly, there've been a fair number of battery announcements, solid-state battery technology, Toyota, and a few others.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Oh, man.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
What's your general assessment? Are we getting close to some kind of breakthroughs here?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Oh, god.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Or what's your thoughts?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Here's my opinion. The battery breakthrough of the week, battery breakthrough du jour. When somebody has like some great claim that they've got this awesome battery, you know what, send us a sample. Or if you don't trust us, send it to an independent lab, where the parameters can be verified. Otherwise, STF. Yes. So everything works on PowerPoint. You know, I could give you a PowerPoint presentation about teleportation to the Andromeda Galaxy. That doesn't mean it works. So Tesla is the biggest buyer of lithium ion batteries on earth. You know who people come to first when they've got a lithium ion battery? Us, because we're their biggest customer. I would love it if we could have some breakthrough. It'd be awesome. I think there are some interesting things on the horizon. But then the time it takes from something working in the lab to working at moderate production levels to working at higher production levels to optimizing the cost is several years. So it's not like it suddenly pops out of nowhere. JB, do you want to add to that?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
No. I totally agree with the sort of cautious skepticism on all these announcements. And just more specifically on the solid-state batteries, Rod. I mean, we've talked to a number of different groups that are researching this. We actually have tested a number of those different prototype, very early prototype, single cells, but we don't yet see anything that changes our strategy, and we don't see anything there that's ...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Although we'd love it if it did. Please. Please. If someone please come up with a battery (37:43) breakthrough, we'd love it.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
We would be the first ones to want to implement it.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Totally. I mean, there are some breakthroughs that I think are achievable. They're confidential, so I can't talk about them on this call, but there's one particular avenue that I'm confident could be made to work. That would be fairly – the most significant one breakthrough in a while. But, again, you got to make it work in the lab. It doesn't yet work in the lab, it's promising in the lab, a year from the lab to small production. Then you go to large production then you get to cost optimization, these are several years, okay? I wish it were shorter. That's the way it goes. Sorry about that. Yes. So was there -
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
The 25% Model 3 gross margin target, when will we get there?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, so, Deepak want to elaborate on this, but I feel like the point which we are at steady-state 5,000 units a week for Model 3 is about when we reach the 25% gross margin level. So it wouldn't be right when we get to 5,000, because initially when you get to 5,000 a week there's still a lot of overtime. We're still expediting parts from all around the world. So you've got a lot of expedited fees, you've got a lot overtime, and so it takes probably from the point at which you get to the 5,000 a week, it's probably another three or four months before you hit the 25% gross margin. Would you agree Deepak?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
I agree. Yes, I was just going to be more cautious...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's something like that. It's certainly...
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
You need to reach a production level and then optimize at that production level.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, I think ultimately it's a variety of factors including material cost and sell and the efficiencies to achieve at the Gigafactory on ourselves. And we are very confident we will achieve the 25% target, seriously on Model 3.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
For sure, next year. 100%.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
That's right. It's a question exactly when.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Again. I'd say 100% probability achieving that at some point next year
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, and I feel really good about it because the bill of material that we have is so well defined and so clear in our...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
The premiums that we have on prototypes is...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Another way of saying, we're significantly less dumb this time, we think.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Yes. The labor hours required are significantly lower. The way we have structured the manufactured...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's designed for manufacturing.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly. So all of those gives me much more confidence in this target. And exactly when we'll achieve? I think we'll give you more clarity over time.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, and I'd like to give some credit to our suppliers here.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
With Roadster and certainly with Model S and to a slight less degree with Model X, we often could not get the top suppliers, and we certainly couldn't get the A-team at the top suppliers.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Right.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
What's great about the Model 3 is we have the A supplier, and we have the A supplier and we have the A-team at the A supplier. I can't tell you how important this is. It makes a massive difference.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Right.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So just a thank you to all the suppliers that work so hard to get us to this point. There is a lot of credit for any success that we have.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Next question. Shree.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Ryan Brinkman with JPMorgan.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Great. Thanks for taking my question. Just thinking about your liquidity position, while you're operating with more cash than you historically have, $3 billion, I see you're also guiding the $2 billion CapEx in the back half, and you've previously said $1 billion of gross cash is as low as you're comfortable operating at. So are you guiding to positive cash from operations in the back half, presumably on the Model 3 ramp in 4Q. But if it's only a little positive, then I guess you would be close to your target at cash level. So the question is, can you help us size up how positive do you expect the cash from operations to be in the back half? And if that level of cash from operations plus whatever remains available to draw on your asset backed line, if that's sufficient cushion for you relative to your $1 billion target? Or whether it might make sense to do another equity raise?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Deepak, do you want to...
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. Sure, Elon. So we expect our operating cash flows to be significantly better in the second half compared to the first half.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
At the highest level, scaling generates cash.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yeah. Absolutely, it does.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And it's a better situation than S and X. And our cash conversion cycle, particularly for the next four quarters, is going be really great while we're shipping Model 3s in North America. And...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. And one thing perhaps we're trying to get to it is, is that with Model 3, with our suppliers we've been able to get – negotiate much better terms, payment terms. But the payment terms are significantly longer. So I think we're close to...
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Close to 60, exactly.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Close to 60 days.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Right.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Payments to those of our suppliers (43:21). And we were also able to make the car a lot faster. So obviously, the Nirvana is that we can make the car and get paid for the car before we have to pay our suppliers, which then the faster you grow, the faster your cash position grows. Obviously, that's like the – that's the promised land right there. And that's how – it's what we've aimed for. And I think we'll achieve that maybe not immediately but pretty quickly. And now that said, there may be some wisdom in having a cash cushion for unexpected events. You just never know if there's going be some significant force majeure events in the world. It could be an earthquake in California, for example. But we're not at this point considering an equity raise. We are thinking about debt, but we're not thinking about an equity raise.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay. That's very helpful. And then just the follow-up is about the $1 billion of desired minimum gross cash. Does that go up when the Model 3 launches because you're a bigger company or does it go down because of what you just said about the ability to generate cash and working capital while production's ramping?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
In the long run as we go up as our balance sheet grows. And just to finish off on your question, we also have liquidity through the lines of credit, our ABL line.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
We've just grown it to $1.9 billion. We have untapped $800 million there. Of course, how much we can tap there depends on our borrowing base, but that's a source of liquidity. And then for our solar lease assets, we have $700 million of funding, which is untapped on our tax equity funds and application debt (45:21). So we have significant amounts of liquidity we get from those lines too.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Yes. Very helpful. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
One side for this (45:29) is this, as far as people look at our finished goods inventory and compare that to other car companies, they compare it in the wrong way. Because Tesla does direct distribution, we are the dealers. You really – to accurately compare Tesla to other car companies, you must include the finished goods inventory, not just at the car companies but at the dealers. And typically that combined time of finished goods from manufacture all the way through to dealer to end customer is, I believe, on the order of 90 days. So maybe 70 to 90 days.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
For other OEMs.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
For the other, OEMs.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. And for us that same metric would be approximately 30 days. So this is a – in other words, at a systemic level, we're substantially more efficient than other carmakers when you consider the system as a whole.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay. Shree, let's have the next question, please?
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Hi. Just a couple quick ones. First on safety. Elon, you're putting a liquid cooled supercomputer in all of your cars. You're obviously ramping up more and more of those. Whether the system is being activated or not, it's collecting data, learning, you're getting better every mile. I imagine you're in a position to kind of share that data with the public or the regulators or Congress, whoever, where it matters. I've even seen an announcement since the 40% reduction in accidents from NHTSA back in January. When could we be in a position to hear some more on this?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's true that there is an enormous amount of sort of visual data being gathered. It's actually quite a challenge to process that data and then train against that data and have the vehicle learn effectively from data, because it's just a vast quantity of data. I do want to emphasize that this is disaggregated from a specific vehicle. So we're always on the side of the owner of the car and do whatever is possible within bounds of the law to protect privacy. But I don't have a good answer for you. If I have good answer right now. I spend a lot of my week working on Autopilot, with the Autopilot team. Wright down in the trenches, the individual details of how we can improve this or that or enhanced in your math (48:27), enhanced vision and advanced improved control. And I think the release that should go out soon is, I think people were really pleased with it. And it's going to get better from there. Yes. Yes. Obviously, over time, an autonomous vehicle is going to be far, far safer than a person. Yes. It's really hard for a person to compete. I mean, the car has eight cameras looking 360 degrees all the time. It's got a (49:12) radar. It's got 12 high-precision ultrasonic sonars. It's got initial measurement units, so high-accuracy GPS, and over 10 Teraops of computing capability that never sleeps.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Okay. Elon, just a follow-up then on space, but not on Mars but more Earth, in Earth (49:39)
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Oh, God. Come on, looks like it gets (49:39)
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
No. It's actually – it's really relevant. I was just curious if – is there anything that SpaceX is doing that we're enabling that could be advantageous to Tesla's mission to accelerate sustainable transport?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
There's a recent anecdote, actually, that Jon just shared with me. And, Jon, maybe you...
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. There's some really great collaboration continuously between the SpaceX teams on materials and other challenges. And we had a challenge in service over the past – just over the past week.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Just this is X-factor (50:15).
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Just told about this today.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Where we needed to determine the ferocity of an object deep within our structure and that's something that SpaceX...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Aluminum casting?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Is an aluminum casting. That's something that SpaceX knows how to do. Our team reached out to the SpaceX team. The SpaceX team helped us to solve that with some ultrasound sensors that we could quickly isolate where the issue was and take corrective action in it.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It saved us eight hours of work per car.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Per car. That was kind of – that could potentially experience this issue. And that's just one example of a lot of examples of how the SpaceX team and the Tesla team collaborate, and we get help from them continually on material issues and other issues like that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. That's cross-fertilization of knowledge from the rocket and space industry to auto back and forth, as I think it's really been quite valuable. It's certainly been very valuable for me in thinking about how do we make mass-optimized vehicles because space – mass optimization (51:25) is extremely important on the space side. It's helpful because what really goes into high-volume manufacturing of something that has to be extremely reliable. So it's been good. And, of course, companies are competing anyway, so it's been quite helpful, actually.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Shree, next question, please?
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Colin Langan with UBS.
Colin Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Oh, great. Thanks for taking my question. How do you come up with your estimate for the number of Supercharges and sealers that you need because you're doubling the number of the base, the number of Supercharges going into the release? But these three is going to have multiple higher in terms of demand. So, I mean, how do you frame that and engage that?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. First of all, I will actually clarify that the numbers of charges will in fact triple between now and the end of next year. And we're confident that that will address the supercharging needs of S, X and 3. So we'll try to stay ahead of it. There are occasional places where – that are tricky to find a location, like Malibu's really difficult. There are a few places, but the – we're staying ahead of that. I think it's going to be good. We should see some immediate relief even for S and X customers on some of the key supercharge locations whilst we – experimenting with our first sort of – I don't know what we call it – mega supercharging location, like really big supercharging location with a bunch of amenities. So we're going to unveil the first of those relatively soon. And I think we'll get a sense for just sort of how cool it can be to have a great place to – if you've been driving for three, four hours – stop, have great restrooms, great food, amenities, hang out and for half an hour and then be on your way.
Colin Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
If I could just follow-up with a related question...
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Maybe just one other point on that and how this can scale pretty effectually. We have Superchargers that serve two major separate needs. There's long distance root enabling between cities, and then there's also within the cities. And while there are definitely some congestion issues which we're expanding out of very quickly in the cities, for the most part the Superchargers that are in between cities have a lot of extra capacity. And we've put those stations in place to serve travel between the cities, but they can absorb a lot more cars. So even if we double fleet size, it doesn't mean that we need to double the entire Supercharger network. We have to address the few urban sites that are currently in high use, but that can be done much more effectually with less CapEx. So that's kind of what you're seeing.
Colin Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
And what about, just as a follow-up, the charge time? I know Porsche has said that they could charge in 15 minutes. Do you think that's possible in the future? And is the charge time on the 3 the same as the S? I wasn't sure in some of the release.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's about the same. It's comparable to the high-end S. The recharge rate of how many miles per hour you recharge is sort of a function of the battery pack size. So, like a 100 kilowatt-hour pack, because charge rate is a function of percentage of pack – think of 3 and a high end S as being similar in charge rates. And over time, we want to keep moving that rate up, but one thing I want to correct from Friday – I don't think it really has much materiality, but I did misspeak at the Journalist Review on Friday. I had said that there were 500,000 net reservations. I did also say that I wasn't sure because I don't follow this number, and this was just a guess. And so we did check to get some precision on this. So to be more accurate, there have been 518,000 gross reservations for 3, and we have 455,000 net reservations. But those cancellations occurred over the course of more than a year. The net gain since Friday, net of cancellations, has been over 1,800 per day. But I just didn't want to leave people with the wrong impression. I think this is inconsequential because with a small amount of effort we could easily drive the Model 3 reservation number to something much higher, but there's no point. It's like if you're a restaurant and you're serving hamburgers and there's an hour and a half wait for the hamburger, do you really want to encourage more people to come order hamburgers? It doesn't make sense. So I think it's neither here nor there, but I wanted to make sure there was not a misunderstanding.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
And maybe just one quick point on your very fast charge time comment or question. We've actually tested cells and even full battery packs that can do something like a 15 minute recharge, but to date the tradeoffs to achieve that we don't feel are the right ones for the customer overall. You end up sacrificing on overall cost per kilowatt-hour and also sacrificing on energy density in the product, and for something that's used not every single day, not every single charge, we feel that we've hit the sweet spot in terms of the value to the customer and the best product. And that's kind of what's guided our philosophy, but obviously there's ongoing work to reduce those tradeoffs and make it better still, but yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And particularly (58:07) 310-mile range for Model 3, let me tell you, the amount of times you will have range anxiety is zero. You don't even think about it.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Shree, next question?
Operator:
Your next question comes from Toni Sacconaghi from Bernstein.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Yes. Thank you. I have one question and one follow-up as well, please. In terms of the Model 3, at the delivery event, 20 of the units were for engineering validation. And the first several thousand it appears are going to be going to employees prior to going to the general public. So I guess the question is, what are you hoping to learn or what might you learn from these engineering validation units that have come out from your employees? And then, realistically, what's (59:04)?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
They're not engineering validation. They're fully-certified, fully-DOT-approved, EPA-approved production cars. These are not prototypes in any way. They're not validation anything. They're full-production cars. The reason they are initially going to employees, and some cases, investors, or anyone has been a long-time investor is that for the first several thousand vehicles, there are problems that crop up that are rare. On a percentage basis, they might be like 0.1% likely to occur. But then there are a whole bunch of these things that only show up 1 in 1,000 cases. And it's good to iron out these things with a (59:59) than to with customers. It also (60:05) reward for those who work on the underlying development and creation of the vehicle. Yes. Yes.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean, it's important to note too that all those people paid full price for their car.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Full price. There was no discount internally at all.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Right. No. I mean, the root of the question is if you realistically uncover something and even if it's 1 in 1,000, what flexibility do you think you have to actually be able to rectify that concern in a way that won't impact your ramp? And if this is being done arguably later in the process than a traditional OEM, that's not trying to ramp necessarily as aggressively as you need to, I'm, again, just trying to understand realistically what can be done and what kinds of things, like perhaps you can give an example of what you might uncover and what the rectification might be?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. These are not (61:13), obviously. These are – what we're talking about here are inconsistencies in the production process or in the quality control from a supplier. So they're relatively easy to correct. They tend to be quite a large number of them. But, again, only rarely occurring. Usually, it involves like a tolerance stack up, or some combination of factors that we didn't anticipate, but they're almost always very easy to correct, but there's just a bunch of them. It's a lot of work.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. And these may be software issues, as well.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Exactly.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Not necessarily supplier or hardware issues.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. It's software-hardware interaction as well. Yes.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
And I think the main benefit is that we can learn about them faster and therefore we can fix them faster. That simply is the benefit.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Right. Exactly. The people driving them are the same ones who actually fix the problem. It's a great feedback loop.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
And what we're doing is above and beyond others. We've done a lot of testing like the other OEMs. So this is just helping us get above and beyond by selling it to our employees and getting feedback from them.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And investors.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Yes.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Shree. Next question, please?
Operator:
Our next question is from David Tamberrino with Goldman Sachs.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC:
Hey. Thank you. Thanks for updating with the net reservation number. Actually, I want to follow along those lines on your order rates. You've given us additional color based off of 2Q trends and average weekly orders. Can you share a little bit more maybe what the 1Q and 2Q order rate trends look like for the Model S and the X?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Not relevant.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
I don't think that those numbers would be helpful for producing things in the future. And like once you get into the granularity, people read things into numbers that really don't have a lot of relevance. There's for sure seasonality in vehicle orders. Fewer people order cars in the dead of winter than order them in spring or summer. So just like other retailers really. And then we do batch cars, so that we'll make typically at the beginning of the quarter, we'll make cars for Europe and Asia. And then we'll make cars for the East Coast of North America then the West Coast of North America. And that's generally sequence within a quarter. Then you'll see someone, right, something where they think they've uncovered some gotcha where there were very few Tesla's registered in the given country in a particular month, I guess because none of them arrived. So this is meaningless extrapolation.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC:
Okay. Then I guess my follow-up question will just be on your 3Q gross margin guidance of a dip below 20%. How far below – to phrase correctly, how dependent upon production and hitting an S curve or ramping up do you think that below 20% is? Could it be a couple hundred basis points below 20%, or is it just you think you're going be around that area based on what the curve that you've laid out so far is going to look like?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. This is just because of Model 3 is fundamentally negative gross margin in the very beginning. Because you got a gigantic machine producing – meant for 5,000 vehicles a week. And it's producing a few hundred vehicles a week.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly, that's the short explanation.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean, it's a denominator problem.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Yes. Looking back, probably something fundamentally wrong with the...
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. It's a temporary situation, and it's a dip which corrects itself.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
This is true for anything. If you had like a soap factory, let me tell you, your first bar of soap would be like millions of dollars. Okay. But then you get to volume production, and then it's like $2. Okay? So true for any manufacturing situation. Yes.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC:
Okay.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Next question, Shree.
Operator:
Our next question is from Brian Johnson with Barclays.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Brian, are you there?
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes. Hi. I have you on muted and then...
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
It may be he had a mic problem too.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Hello?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. We can hear you. Go ahead.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
You're a bit soft but go ahead.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes. Just wanted to ask about – a couple questions around the pace of spend in the second half...
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Please speak up. You're a bit soft. Yes.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes. The pace of OpEx through second half you guided through flat. With the Model 3 going out, are you basically saying you have the operating infrastructure to handle that but then does that ramp in 2018? And similarly for CapEx to go from 30 Model 3s up to the exit rate, you're talking $2 billion. How do we think about, A, that run rate and given how do we tie it to your exponential ramp? And, B, what does that imply for CapEx going into 2018?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. So, your first question was operating expenses?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
And do we have enough infrastructure in place to service the Model 3. And I think, yes, we're finding actually leverage in our own infrastructure and that's helping us. So I'll give you an example of that. In service, as we've talked about, we discovered that 80% of the cars that we repair don't require lift. And so we're deploying a mobile service strategy to take 80% of the cars and fix them where it's convenient to the customer. Not at our location but their location. Make it invisible to them.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Exactly. The – the nice thing – you – like the ideal service is it's invisible. You don't even notice it, and when it's done, you love it. So what we're talking about here the mobile service tracks. As Jon was saying, really most of the time we don't really need a lift. Is that your car could be parked and it could be at your office parking lot or at your house. But let's say it's at work. Tesla will come there, fix your car and by the time you need to leave for work, it's done.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
That's right. And so what that does for us is it takes 80% of the volume out of our existing footprint and allows us to leverage that footprint to grow with Model 3. And we'll give you similar examples in stores. So that's why we've guided to the OpEx. We've guided for the second half. We feel like we've got leverage there, and we've got plans in place to further lever that in 2018.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think it's been really great for customers. I mean this is what you want.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Totally.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I mean, you don't want to bring your cars at your service center. You just want your car to be magically fixed in the parking lot and that's what we're going to do.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. So we're going to provide really great customer happiness at increasing OpEx levels of leverage.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
And second question was similarly around CapEx leverage. So you put in $2 billion second half to get to that exit rate. One, is that affected by the timing of Elon's production ramp? And then, two, keeping the ramp from 5,000 to 10,000 in 2018, what's your preliminary view of CapEx for 2018?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla, Inc.:
So I want to put a pin on 2018. We'll talk about that when we get to that time. But in 2017, our CapEx expense is a continuum. There are long-lead items of different kinds likely the Gigafactory. And for the Model 3 and the equipment we are buying, our CapEx spend is at historical highs. We're spending $100 million a week. So a week or two here or there is a couple of hundred million. So what we are spending now is the completion of all of our Model 3 equipment and tooling, as that gets signed off. And it's taking us to 5,000 and beyond. So I can't necessarily break it out for you, but it just allows us to hit our operating plan that we have at a high level.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
I want to do a quick time check here. So some of us have some other things scheduled in 20 minutes. So we've gotten some good thorough answers here, so we'll probably take a few more questions.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Few questions, and yes.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
And then wrap it up.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
So, Shree, next question.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question is from Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Thanks so much. Can you talk a little bit about the conversion rate of customers coming into stores and actually ordering cars? And then, similar question on what's happening with solar and energy storage in terms of how many customer impressions you've got, and the conversion rate into actual sales?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
The conversion rates have continued to improve quarter-over-quarter and month after month, our conversion rates get stronger. And we don't obviously publicize specifics on those, but they're improving with every week and every month. On the solar side, one of the interesting things that we're seeing is we've put a solar display and an energy display into our stores in North America. And we've got energy experts that are on staff. And what we're finding is it's a really natural transition in conversation from somebody is buying a car and talking about where they're going to charge the car to then where their energy comes from.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Totally. I mean, we talked about the importance of integrating energy, production, storage and electric vehicle transport. And what we said is coming true. It's really working well together. And we're actually able to leverage our existing stores to generate even more sales per square foot. I'm not sure what our – I think our sales per square foot...
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Our sales per square foot is so high -
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
– are so high -
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
It actually moves the total number of...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
You need a telescope to see who's in second place.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Exactly. Yes. And it actually moves the overall...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's like stupidly high.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Square footage, sales-per-square-foot numbers for some of the larger (71:45).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
But, I mean, (71:50) Model 3, because there's no point there, but (71:54) eventually. And I think that the new integrated app, with where you can see the status of your car, your power wall, and your solar, and see at any given time of the day how much energy is coming from the sun, how much from is coming from the power wall, what your house is consuming. You can also – it tells you when the power wall saved you from utility interruption. People don't realize they're like there are many small utility interruptions in a given month. And that's why you're – you see the blinking 12 on your microwave oven or whatever the case may be, or your computer suddenly went dark or you can even get data corruption and that kind of thing, or your food went bad mysteriously. The power wall saves you from all of that. And I think it's particularly important in cases where there's like a natural disaster, which could be floods, hurricanes, ice storms, earthquakes, fires, anything that disrupts the utility system. But having an uninterruptible power supply in the form of power wall gives you security in those situations. And it's kind of like insurance, like you only really want it when you really want it. And I think people love that. I just saw the app for the first time today. I'm using it myself and it's like, wow, this is great.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Shree, next question, please?
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Martin Viecha with Redburn.
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
Hey. This is Martin. I have just two very quick questions. The first one is on the battery production for S and X. Is there any plan to move it to the Gigafactory?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
For pack production.
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
(74:07) production? We do not – in the short term, we will not be moving it. So sometime next year, we may move it sometime next year in order to make space for additional production volume of Model 3. That's one of the things under consideration. But in the short term we're keeping it here in Fremont. But it is going be tricky to squeeze in all the space for increased Model 3 production. Particularly, if that run rate goes above 10,000 units a week then we're going to have to move more stuff out.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. And it may just be worth a reminder also that the cells for S and X are actually still 18-650 lithium-ion and those are coming from a different production pathway in Japan. Very similar technology. Yes. Almost same technology.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Internal source actually.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. But different supply chain. Different set of geography.
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
And then the follow-up question is on the Model Y. I think you just mentioned an hour ago that it's going be made probably on the same platform or very similar platform as the Model 3.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, 3. Yes. We're really going to have...
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
Is it going to have...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
We're going to aim for maximum carryover.
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
Okay. I mean, just one thing to clarify is this still going to be the 100 meters of cables which you touched upon last time? Or actual it's going to be the next generation of vehicles?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
No, that's one of the things that we would include. We would aim to switch out the wiring on this for – the one that coming is wiring on is for a redundant flex circuit. That's on more in the order of 100 meters or so. But then we'd, obviously, aim to do that both for the Y, if it's called a Y and the Model 3 as well.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Next question, please?
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question is from Alex Potter with Piper Jaffray.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Yes. Hi. Thanks. Just one for me. I was wondering the degree to which Tesla would eventually consider maybe charging more for, I guess, what you would call nontraditional product offerings? Things like software, over-the-air updates, but also shared mobility, supercharging, aftermarket. I know in the past you've talked about running a lot of those businesses just to breakeven, but I guess maybe just wondering the circumstances under which you would consider trying to earn a margin on some of these businesses versus situations where you'd prefer to just give them away?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, I think we have a major element of that which is the Autopilot. That's a software. That's basically uploading software to the car. Every car made since October last year is capable of full autonomy we believe. And such really just a question of uploading the software for autonomy. There will be some other things I think in the future. But I – and our focus is in the Model 3 ramp and we don't want to get too distracted. Maybe one more question.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. Shree, one last question, please.
Operator:
Our final question comes from Rob Cihra from Guggenheim Partners.
Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC:
Hi. Great. Thanks very much. Just going back to Autopilot development, obviously not talking personal details or anything but you had some personnel changes in the quarter. I'm just wondering if those reflected any kind of change of strategy or scope, or if it was just kind of a personal thing? And I guess just related, are you still hoping to be able to do the autonomous drive L.A. to New York by the end of this year? Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. I may not comment too much on like individual personnel changes, but Tesla is 33,000-person company. If you actually look at our executive tenure at Tesla, it's extremely good. It's above average. I think we're at least maybe a year or two above average in terms of executive tenure here. Every now and then something doesn't work out for one reason or another. In the case of Autopilot, it's very centrally about vision and image recognition, neural nets, effectively narrow AI. And so, that's the focus from our recruiting standpoint, and I think we've really got – I think we've got the best team in the world by a long shot on that front, and we are growing it rapidly with world-class talent. And then, the coast-to-coast drive, autonomous drive by the end of the year, I believe we're still on track for that. It is certainly possible that I may have egg on my face on that front. But if it is not, at the end of the year, it will be very close.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Great. Thank you, everybody, for joining us today. Thank you for Shree, for your help, and wish everybody a great day. Bye-bye.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in today's conference. This does conclude the program. You may all disconnect, and have a wonderful day.
Executives:
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc. Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc. Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc. Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc. Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.
Analysts:
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co. Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC Colin Langan - UBS Securities LLC Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management) David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd. Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc. Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc. Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC John Murphy - Bank of America-Merrill Lynch James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC Brad D. Erickson - Pacific Crest Securities Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla First Quarter 2017 Financial Results Q&A Call. At this time all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session and instructions will follow at that time. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would now like to turn the call over to your host, Mr. Jeff Evanson. Mr. Evanson, you may begin.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Thank you, Sheria. And good afternoon, everyone. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, JB Straubel, Deepak Ahuja, Jon McNeill, and Lyndon Rive. Today on our webcast, we'll discuss our Q1 results that are announced in the update letter at the same link as this webcast. And during our call we will discuss our business outlook, make some forward-looking statements. These are all based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. We'll start today's call with some brief remarks from Elon and then we'll jump right into Q&A. Please do try to limit your questions – yourselves to one question and one follow-up. And if you haven't entered the queue already, please press star one now. And with that, I'll turn it over to you, Elon.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Thanks. So, yeah, welcome to the call. And I'd like to welcome Deepak Ahuja back to Tesla as CFO. And, yeah, it's welcome back.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Thank you, Elon. I appreciate that, and I'm really excited to be back.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Cool. All right, so yeah, we'll just go right into Q&A. Overall, I'm very proud of Tesla for our accomplishments in the first quarter, and I think second quarter is going to be great too. And, yeah, so overall I think we're executing well. And I'm feeling quite optimistic about the future.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Sheria, let's have the first question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our first question comes from Alex Potter with Piper Jaffray.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Hi, thanks. There's been a fair amount of debate recently both amongst investors, I think, but also within the supply chain about the segments within the transportation ecosystem that will sort of forever be off limits to Tesla because of physical limitations of electric drivetrains, specifically as it relates to weight and energy density and things of that nature. Presumably you disagree, but I'd be interested in hearing maybe why you disagree, why you think Tesla can compete in those segments whereas other people think diesel or fuel cells or other options would be better.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
You're thinking of things like heavy trucking?
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
For instance, yeah, that's – I mean, I guess, different people draw the line in different areas, but as an example, yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm absolutely confident that electric powered trains will – electric vehicles will occupy every segment without exception. And I don't want to jump the gun on the Tesla Semi truck unveiling later this year, but I think, it's going to be a good (3:54) product, and will defy people's expectations on what an electric truck can do. So I really do not see any segment of transport that will not be electric, in fact I'm highly confident that all transport will go fully electric with the ironic exception of rockets. Yeah, just kidding.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Yeah, okay. Very good.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
No easy way around Newton's Third Law.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Right. Okay. And then I guess maybe one Model 3 question here. I know, it's maybe early days. Is there any way to gauge sort of what you think the trim and option uptake is going to look like on the Model 3 just to give folks an idea of what the pricing and margin profile might look like? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think it's really guesswork at this point, but if it were to be comparable to what we see with say Model S or with what other vehicles in the market (05:03) it's something like a 20% to 30% increment over the finished product (5:08) would be the typical average. Jon, do you have any...?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, I think that's right. And we experienced a little bit higher than that in Model S. And Model S in comparison to Model 3 has more range, has more power, has more cargo, et cetera. And we'll be introducing at the start of production. I think, we'll be announcing our vehicle as we get closer to the start of production what those vehicle specs will be, but I think 20% is a fair number to use.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, actually just to reemphasize that. I might repeat that a few times on the call. We want to be super clear that Model 3 is not version 3 of our car. Model 3 is essentially a smaller, more affordable version of the Model S with fewer features. But the Model S and the Model 3 will be at the same level of technology, and if you were to put a version on, say, what – I would say probably on version 4 of Model S, and Model 3 will also be on version 4. If you think of like the essentially the first – when Model S first came out, just rear-wheel drive, and we had dual motor all-wheel drive, we had initial Hardware 1 Autopilot, and then Hardware 2 Autopilot, and there was a facial refresh. There have been roughly four versions of Model S, and we're on the fourth version of Model 3, will be also version 4. It's a little confusing, because one's a letter and the other's a number. But Model 3 was supposed to be called the Model E. But then Ford intended to sue us, and then I thought we were being all clever by calling it the Model 3, but actually the joke's on me, because it caused confusion in the marketplace, so we're doing our best to clear up that confusion so people do not think that Model 3 is somehow superior to Model S. Actually Model S will be better than Model 3, as it should be, because it's a more expensive car.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Okay, good. Yes, very clear. Thanks very much.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
We're going to be kind of a broken record on this front. And the messaging might get a little annoying, but we really have to be emphatic to clear up an error, for which I take full responsibility in naming something that inherently would cause confusion in the marketplace.
Alexander Eugene Potter - Piper Jaffray & Co.:
Okay, understood.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Toni Sacconaghi with Bernstein.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Yes, thank you. I was wondering if you could maybe give us an update qualitatively or quantitatively, on how investors should think about battery costs. I think your last public statement was that Tesla's battery cost early last year was under $190 per kilowatt hour. If we look at Powerwall 2, there's been significant improvement in cost per kilowatt and in density, but I think if we try to do the math on Powerwall 2, we still come up with a number that's reasonably high. So maybe you can help us. I think in the past, Elon, you've said that you hope to get to $100 per kilowatt hour by 2020, and I recognize that's aspirational, but maybe you can help us a little bit frame how we should think about battery cost today. What kind of improvement you're seeing from, or expect to see with 2170 batteries in vehicles going forward?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, I mean, you got numbers for classical RFC (9:30) closely held competitive information. It's just that we do expect to see significant improvements year-over-year as much as improving the core chemistry of the cell, reducing essentially the cell mass that is inactive, and of course, mass economies of scale and vertical integration at the Gigafactory. These will all take time and effort, but there will be significant time. Now with the Powerwall, there are a bunch of other costs in the Powerwall that are more than just the batteries. So, you have the cell cost and then you have to turn the cell into a module. You have all the cooling systems, the control systems, the safety stuff which prevents cell run away, the enclosure, the modem to communicate to data, and then (10:42) maybe power electronics to take the power from the cells and convert that to AC or DC power that the house can use. JB, something you'd like to add to that?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
No, that's a great description. It's a fully integrated product. It's a system, not just a bunch of cells. So if you maybe try and calculate dollar per kilowatt hour costs to the Powerwall, I think you'd find it's extremely competitive against other home energy storage systems, we believe it's the best. But there is a lot of other hardware in there. It's all included, all wrapped together in the Powerwall price, so you don't have to piecemeal a system in your house.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Right, but we are confident that the Powerwall is the highest quality product and actually at the lowest cost of anything on the market. So that is a good product, and, I'm feeling pretty happy with it.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
And some of the improvement trajectory that you saw, from Powerwall 1 to Powerwall 2, part of that is made possible by the migration to 2170 cells made at Gigafactory. Not all of it, but a large part of it. So that is something we're pleased with and feel is going well.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Okay. Thank you. I was wondering also, your customer deposits, and I recognize there's a lot in that, declined for the second straight quarter, and at least by my math, it appears as though Tesla's new car inventory has increased substantially over the last couple quarters, maybe 3,500 units, or about 50%, even though sort of production and deliveries have been relatively constant. I'm wondering if you are seeing incremental demand pressure on Model X and particularly Model S. Elon, you underscored that there was confusion in the marketplace. And are these the metrics that are suggesting to you that there's some confusion in the marketplace? Are you seeing cancellations? Because at least optically, it looks like the book-to-bill is less than 1 on Model S and Model X.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, Deepak here. A couple of questions that you had. Firstly just to clarify, our finished vehicle inventory only increased very slightly from end of Q4 to end of Q1, and we are using some of that in different ways, and Jon can explain that further. And also to your other question on customer deposits, what I'm seeing is that we had an artificial backlog in our customer deposits of Model Xs and as our production of Model Xs has stabilized, and as our mix of Model X has increased relative to Model S, we have cleared that, so it's nothing unusual from what I'm seeing there. And Jon, you want to add on the...?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
That's right. The increase in inventory is about split in two. One is we increased Model X test drive vehicles by about a thousand over the past quarter. We had prioritized deliveries as we've ramped up Model X production, and prioritized getting cars to customers first, and to our stores second. Our stores have finally gotten their test drive fleets. And that's what you see in terms of half of the unit volume increase. The second half is in our service loaners. So as our installed fleet has gone up, we wanted to make sure that our owners were getting a service loaner, and so we will continually increase that, and you'll see that over time. That's not a one-time event, you'll see, as we continue to deliver this level of cars per quarter, that we will increase the service loaner fleet proportionately, so that we've got the ability to offer a Tesla to our customers.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, in fact this will take us a few months to fully deploy. But our policy for service loaners is that the service loaner fleet will be the very best version of a Tesla that is available. So if you have a Model X that comes in for service, the service loaner you will get will be the absolute fully loaded state-of-the-art P100D Ludicrous best Model X that we have. The same for the Model S. So it'll be the kind of thing where you hope that service takes a long time, because you have the absolute top of the line Tesla as a service loaner.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
So, Elon, just to clarify that the confusion that you believe exists potentially between Model 3 and Model S, that's not being inferred from order patterns, that's being inferred more qualitatively from what you're learning in showrooms, or how do you make that assessment of the problem?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
No, no. We have seen some impact of Model S orders as a function of people being confused that Model 3 is the upgrade to Model S. And we took action to correct that about a month ago, but that message has not filtered down to all of our customers. So there's still a lot of people who are under the impression that Model 3 is the upgrade from Model S but in fact, if they want to upgrade, they should just buy the latest Model S. That's the actual upgrade path. If you're, like, thinking that the upgrade path from an Audi A6 isn't Audi A4. It's not. So it's just a question of correcting that misconception, which I'm confident we'll be able to do in the next several weeks.
Antonio M. Sacconaghi - Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. LLC:
Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Colin Langan with UBS.
Colin Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Oh, great. Thanks for taking my questions. You've talked about in the past, reinventing the machine that makes the machine, and now that we're getting a little bit closer to the Model 3 launch, any additional color on what steps in automation you're doing for the Model 3, and any rough order of magnitude of how much more automated the Model 3 would be versus the traditional production line?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, so with Model 3, I think we'll be roughly comparable with the best high-volume vehicle production lines in the world. Better in some respects, a little worse in others. But roughly comparable, and then with some further iteration, I think it will probably be a little bit better than the next-best automotive production line. Then where things will really be a step change, I think, beyond any other auto manufacturer, will be the Model Y factory. And this is all a function of designing the product to be easy to manufacture and easy to automate, as well as designing the factory itself. So Model-wise, I think, we're really the common step change, but Model 3 is going to be at or probably slightly better than I think the next best automotive production in the world. I just think that's pretty good outcome. And then Model Y will be – there will be nothing close to it, I think.
Colin Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Got it.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Let me just add as a relevant benchmark against the Model S and the Model X, Model 3 is vastly more automated. And perhaps it's not the best benchmark to use looking forward, but it's perhaps three to four times more automated than a Model S or a Model X. And much, much simpler to build.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Is that one-fifth of the hours per car?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yep.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
So it's five times the volume, but the same hours per car.
Colin Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Got it.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Compared to S.
Colin Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
And, as a follow-up, any color on you've announced the doubling of the supercharger network, and increasing your dealers. I mean, how should we think about that over the next few years? Is that doubling going to be enough? Or how do you see the network needing to expand going forward?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
We're expanding the (19:48) substantially, made that announcement just recently and you can find on our website. That's going to continue to increase dramatically. Do you want to speak to service, Jon?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, so service, service locations are one that you see increasing in the shareholder letter. But you should probably think about service capacity in two ways now. One of the things we've discovered as we've deployed more advanced service techniques into our centers, is that a supermajority of the cars we repair don't require a lift. That frees us from brick and mortar service. And we've added substantially now to our mobile service capability starting first experimenting in the variance of our major markets, and we'll be rolling that out throughout the year. So we're creating service capacity in two ways; mobile service and fixed-service operations. But the fixed-service operations are becoming much, much, more efficient.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
With much higher throughput.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Absolutely, much higher throughput through worker per square foot across really every metric.
Colin Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Okay. Thank you for the color.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Hi, everyone. Elon, the first question is on CFIUS and Tencent. So after acquiring a 5% passive stake in the company, I'm thinking given the highly sensitive nature of your proprietary tech, and computer vision, A.I., robotics, et cetera, and all of the related infrastructure, I would imagine that the Commission for Foreign Investment in the United States and the Pentagon might be concerned of the idea of a Chinese, or potentially a Chinese state backed company going any further than a small passive stake. Am I watching too many cold war movies here, or is there a potential for some sensitivity on the grounds of national security?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
But I don't think – 5% is not that big of a deal. They're not present at board meetings. They don't have any insight into Tesla that's not public.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, as Elon said, this is a passive investment, and it doesn't require CFIUS clearance from that point of view.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Okay.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
And they don't have any access to confidential information or board materials, so it's just a belief and a support of what they think Tesla can achieve.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Okay, and just as a follow-up, Apple has enough net cash I think to buy Tesla, like more than three times over. Is there anything that Apple does or has, besides having more money than they know what to do with, that could be helpful in Tesla's mission to accelerate the transition to shared autonomy and sustainable transport? Could they be the type of firm you could partner with, and is this something you could talk to Tim about?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, I don't think they want to have that conversation, Adam. At least I've not heard any indication that they do. Obviously Apple continues to make some great products and, yeah, I mean, I use their phone and their laptop, it's cool. I mean...
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
I appreciate that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I don't know what else to say.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
(23:13).
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
I mean, you think they're more a competitor than potential partner? Is that unfair?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I mean, I don't know what they're going to do on the car front. Yeah, it's not clear.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Thanks, Elon.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Tyler Frank with Robert Baird.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
(23:43) question. Can you walk me through what your capital needs are for the Model 3 just to get to production and then to ramp production throughout this year and next year. And then how confident are you that you might be able to hit that 100,000 unit production target for the Model 3 in this year? And then I have a follow-up after that.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I don't think we have indicated the – we've just said in the letter we'd achieve 5,000 per week at some point this year, and 10,000 at some point next year. So we haven't clarified on that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, the trick is that when you got a whole new product and a whole new factory, trying to predict exactly what that initial S-curve, the initial portion of the S-curve looks like is extremely difficult. Inevitably, the production starts off slowly and then you gradually eliminate the constraints and eventually it starts taking off exponentially. But because of that, sort of initial slow ramp that then grows exponentially, a small change in where that lands in the quarter can have quite a big impact on total volume. It's a lot easier to predict where the upper flat portion of the S-curve is likely to be, but predicting the rapidly changing portions of the S-curve is I think not within the ability of anyone to predict with accuracy.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Got it. And then can you just run us through what the capital needs are? Sort of hit that 10,000 unit per week goal, as well as where the battery factory stands in terms of its current capacity versus its expected total capacity, and what the timeline is to get to that total capacity mark?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, we think pretty good overall about the capital needs and our ability to fund that, to achieve that 10,000 per week capacity...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
With internal.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, with internal, right. Exactly. With our own resources and the cash that we generate in our business as we ramp up Model 3 volumes. And overall, and JB can speak up more to that in terms of the cell capacity. That's all lined up to come online just ahead of our needs on the vehicles side as well as on the energy storage side.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
And we initially forecast about 35 gigawatt hours of cell capacity, and 50 gigawatt hours of pack capacity, and we anticipate to surpass that cell capacity in 2018. So, that's going well, and with the increasing improvements in the production density and speed at the Gigafactory, we actually ultimately believe, and I think we've said this before, that we can fit substantially more capacity than 35 gigawatt hours at Gigafactory 1.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, and we said publicly that we think cell upward capacity at Gigafactory 1 is likely to exceed 100 gigawatt hours over time.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
So yeah, so the end status of 35 gigawatt hours is really a passing point at this stage, and we'll continue on from there.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Right, okay. And just, Elon you had previously pulled out a target of a million cars per year by 2020. Do you still think that's achievable? And what needs to take place in order to get there?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, I do. I think we need to come out with the Model Y sometime in 2020 or aspirationally late 2019. And then I think that a million units is quite likely, combined, yeah. Maybe more.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from David Tamberrino with Goldman Sachs.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Well, great. Thank you. Good afternoon. Wanted to first just ask about the order rates for the Model S and the Model X in the quarter, and also get some color around your deliveries from a regional perspective. I believe there was an expiration of an electric vehicle tax credit in Hong Kong, just wondering if that created any pull-forward or incremental demand in the quarter, and if there's any air pocket to orders and deliveries for the second quarter, seeing that you maintained your 47,000 to 50,000 1-H delivery guidance?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, I mean, there was some pull-forward demand in Hong Kong. That's one city on Earth, so it's really not going to impact our ability to achieve our delivery targets for Q2.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
And the order rate growth for the quarter?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, I think, we feel pretty good about achieving the sort of the 100K – roughly 100K total for the year for Model S and Model X, combined. That's where we kind of want to be. The manufacturing system and the supply chain is all sort of set up for that level. We continue to be surprised by how sort of frankly naïve people are – a lot of people are about production and supply chain. It's as though there is some like easy way to increase production. It's truly not. Any given production system, you design it for optimal output and then you aim to improve efficiency, reliability, quality, and so forth at that output. But the Model S and Model X system as we said last year, was designed for 100,000 units, and now initially to get to that rate, we have to use a lot of overtime, a lot of expediting, and that affected our gross margin on the car. And now we're sort of at steady state with kind of the top part of that S-curve that we're targeting. And so now focus for Model S and Model X is improving production efficiency, continuing to improve quality and...
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Internal costs.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, and internal costs and so forth to sort of and to get the automotive gross margin of Model S and Model X to the 30% level that we've been aspiring to for a while.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Understood that's on the production side. My question was just on what the order rates and demand was looking like from what you're seeing on your customer base? Historically you've given or provided very helpful color on what the year-over-year or quarter-over-quarter order growth rate has been on the Model S and Model X, and I think, it's a meaningful metric for what demand looks like for those vehicles and for your products. But okay, understood.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I don't think it's meaningful. Like we're going to produce 100,000 units approximately. So, all that matters is there going to be demand for 100,000 units? I believe there will be, or there is.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
And there's certainly sufficient demand for the guidance we've given for the first half.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Understood, and just on the SolarCity side. It looked like a pretty good gross margin quarter, wanted to understand how much of that was from the shift further into the cash loan versus the PPA lease and how much was that, or was it more associated with the ramping of the Gigafactory and production of the cells?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, it was primarily seasonality. We had normal production happening in the northern hemisphere in some of the PPA leases and how we recognize revenue. And also it was we had some $14 million sale of energy credits that helped us. And the credit sale happen every quarter, but we had the full quarter of it, which we didn't have in our half-quarter of SolarCity sales financials in our Tesla income statement.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
And you've actually seen an increase in the cash and loan that increased the margin as well.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yes, that does help the margin as well, yes.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
I'm sorry to ask one more. But that was a bit inaudible, could you repeat that?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, we've also seen an increase in the cash and loan business.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Thank you very much.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
We're going to get to majority cash and loan by the end of the year.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Correct.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
So just to be clear, (33:30) the objective is to get to majority cash and loan by the end of the year.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
And we expect Solar margins to stay very healthy for the rest of the year, and grow over time.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Understood. Thank you very much.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Martin Viecha with Redburn.
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
Hi, this is Martin from Redburn. I wanted to ask about the TED Talk that you had few days ago where you talked about Level 5 maybe in the next two years. And I was wondering that it's probably going to change radically the design of the car inside, and whether you foresee this in the next three years that the interior design would change quite dramatically?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I don't think we're going to see dramatic change in interior design. Maybe an option where you have club seating instead of everyone facing forward, but I wouldn't call that radical. Yeah, just turn the seats around.
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
Okay. <
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
The sensor hardware and compute power required for at least level 4 to level 5 autonomy has been in every Tesla produced since October of last year, approximately. So it's a matter of upgrading the software, and we can reach level 5. And if it does seem that we need to upgrade the compute power, it's designed to be easy to upgrade, basically access it through the glove box and plug in a more powerful computer, so we don't think it will be, but if it is, that's pretty easy to do. So the important thing to appreciate is that the sensor hardware and wiring harness is necessary for full autonomy, which is essentially having the eight cameras, the radar, and ultrasonics, that's in place, so with each passing release, the car's autonomy level will improve. We had a bit of a dip, obviously because of the unexpectedly rapid transition away from MobilEye, where we would expect it to have the MobilEye chip on the board as we transition, but MobilEye refused to allow that, so then we had to basically recreate all the MobilEye functionality in about six months, which we did.
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
Okay. And then the other follow-up question that I had was on the Model Y. You mentioned that the Model 3 production line will be probably as fast, or a bit faster than the fastest production line in the world. And Model Y will be a genuine step change. Does that mean that the Model Y will be made on a different platform than the Model 3.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
It will be, yeah. Different platform. I'll tell you...
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think I've given this example before, but it's just one example, but the wiring harness on Model S is about 3 kilometers in length. The wire harness on Model 3 is 1.5 kilometers in length. The wiring harness on Model Y will be 100 meters. And that's a redundant wiring harness.
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
It's not really a wiring harness, it's basically a flex harness with a high DataRay bus, so you can put everything on a higher DataRay bus that isn't a CAN bus where your DataRay is massively constrained. And we'll also make changes to the vestigial voltage so not everything's 12 volts, which is a pretty absurd number, really it's wrong for everything.
Martin Viecha - Redburn (Europe) Ltd.:
Guys. Thank you very much.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Brian Johnson with Barclays.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes, I have a couple of questions. A house-keeping one, and then sort of where are you kind of question for Elon. On the housekeeping, your order delivery announcements at the end of the quarter, I mean delivery announcements, you used to talk about deliveries to end customers. This quarter it was just deliveries to customers. Is there any change in distribution channels potentially using resellers in some markets that that's meant to communicate?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
No, it's the same thing. It's consistent. We are delivering to end individual customers.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. Second, a couple years ago when the stock was at $200, in answer to one of my questions, Elon, you outlined a scenario where you could get to $700 billion in market cap. That's about where Apple was at the time. We're two years later, you're obviously close to the Model 3 launch, how are you looking at that?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, now I may want to preface this by of course I could be completely delusional, but I think I see a clear path to that outcome.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. And anything else in terms of other businesses or volume, or still pretty much on that track?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
The set of steps necessary to achieve that outcome seems pretty obvious. I am heavily involved in Tesla going – incredibly good at the machine that builds the machine. Which involves, by the way, a tremendous amount of software. This is not just a bunch of robots that are sitting there. It's the programming of robots and how they interact. And it's far more complex than the software in the car. I mean, I think, this is just going to be a very difficult thing for other manufacturers to copy. I would not know what to do if I were in their position.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay, and just one quick question. Why pickup trucks? Why semis before pickup trucks?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, they're not going to be that widely separated in time. And I think part of it is we do want to show that electric transport can do even the most heavy duty things in the world, so I think it's pretty obvious we could pick-up trucks. But it's not obvious to a lot of people that you can do a heavy duty semi. And so just being able to kind of hit the corner of the box capability, it's just a helpful thing to do. Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Maybe another point, but a disproportionate amount of petroleum is actually burned by a small number of trucks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Just because of the high utilization and the high miles per vehicle, and they really lend themselves I think well to electrification.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly. For every semi, I mean, it's probably 10 times as much hydrocarbon saved for a semi as for a pickup truck.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Rod Lache with Deutsche Bank.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Hi, everybody. Couple of remaining questions. Just one is since the Model 3 is maybe two or three months away, could you just give us a sense of what some of the most critical outstanding items are that are going to gate the commercial launch timing, and now that there are actual physical test vehicles on the road, are there any significant changes happening?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, actually it seems to be we're not really seeing any significant change that needs to occur with Model 3. It's coming in as expected as the design continuation has predicted. It's been pretty close to the bullseye, and I'm not aware of anything that would affect our prior statement to that volume target.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
So there's nothing outstanding vis-a-vis tooling, deliveries, or things like that that you're still viewing as a critical item with some uncertainty?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
There's plenty of things with uncertainty, but I don't know anything that would prevent us from starting production in July, and exceeding 5,000 units a week by the end of the year.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay, great.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
There may be something that crops up, but I just don't know of what that is today.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Got it. Just switching gears to China. Obviously, domestic production is presumably very important to your success in that region. China recently suggested that they may relax the rules for foreign ownership, or that they intend to relax the rules for foreign ownership, and I was wondering if you could just update us on where you stand vis-a-vis the growth plans there, and are there rules for ownership, is that one of the gating factors?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I don't think this is quite the right timing to make any announcements on that front, but I would expect us to define our plans more clearly by the end of this year, more specific to China production.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. Great. And just lastly...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think it's good timing that, I mean, the China rule changes are good timing.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Got it. And just lastly, unless there's a pretty huge Q2 for CapEx, it appears that you're tracking at less than that $2 billion number that you had articulated of capital spending prelaunch of Model 3. Is that a function of savings, contractual timing, or is that a capacity issue? Just some thoughts on how we should be thinking about the capital spending relative to your prior targets?
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. It's not too far from it, Rod. And we will have significant CapEx in Q2, and it's all in a big lump sum or with a big peak, given how much equipment is being installed and then tested. Often our CapEx payments happen, and a big chunk of the final payments happen after the equipment is installed, it's tested, and then we have fairly good customer payment terms. In many cases it's 90 days, and so it's just a matter of that process and time and gain, but we feel very comfortable in terms of how that is happening, the spend and the installation, and overall very nice for Model 3.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, I mean, if anyone comes on a tour of the factory, it's really insane how much equipment is arriving and getting installed and being brought online. And I'm used to seeing a lot of intense equipment. It blows my mind, like, wow. And I think you can also get a kind of a visual sense for the improvement in manufacturing technology between Model S and Model X and Model 3. So you can just go look at it and say, "Yep, that's obviously better."
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yes.
Operator:
Okay. Thank you. Our next question comes from Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Thanks so much. Can you give us an update on the volume of cathode and anode that's being produced and shipped from the Gigafactory at this point?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
(46:40) but it's a lot. Yeah, vast amounts. Are you alluding to potential material supply constraints? I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
I just want to get a sense of the ramp at this point on the cathode and the anode at the Gigafactory.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, I think it's ramping very rapidly (47:24) but we're not really seeing anything that's standing in the way of that.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, and I completely agree, and we're basically tracking slightly ahead of where we need to be on vehicles, but that's sort of as was planned.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
We don't want to be too far ahead or else we'd have a pretty massive inventory issue showing up. So we run it in batches, and we run at high rates and then pause and validate the throughput, but, yeah, it's where we expect it to be.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Okay. That's super helpful. And then just shifting...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Can I say, I'd just like to express a note of appreciation to Panasonic, our partner on the cell phone and I think the partnership is working really well, and they're doing great stuff.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Okay. And then shifting gears to the purchase accounting adjustments related to SolarCity. Can we just get a sense of the nature of that? It looked like you were going to go through a series of complex assessments over the course of the year with the SolarCity acquisition. I just want to understand what that $100 million charge was, and how we should think about those decisions getting made going forward.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, I'm not sure what the – yeah, the $100 million is the change quarter-over-quarter that you're referring to, and in Q4 – and this is arcane purchase accounting. There was a gain on our purchase of SolarCity that was not there in Q1 and there was some revaluation of assets at SolarCity that was linked to that purchase. And net of that was the $100 million walk.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Okay, I'll take the rest of it offline. Thanks a lot, guys.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yes.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Ryan Brinkman with JPMorgan.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Great. Thanks for taking my question. What do you think are likely to prove the biggest challenges or bottlenecks in ramping production to 5,000 vehicles per week by some point in 2017? And how confident are you in your ability to overcome those challenges? And then the shareholder letter also mentions a run rate of I think 10,000, or approaching 10,000 per week in 2018, which would maybe seem to indicate some kind of an annual run rate of 500,000 or so Model 3s, And then given you're also tracking kind of 100,000 Model Ss and Model Xs, do you think that type of production can be handled out of the Fremont facility, or does your plan assume production in another facility as well?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. All of that production is intended to be out of the Gigafactory 1 and Fremont. So, yeah, we believe that can all be handled here. As far as specific constraints on Model 3, I just don't know of anything that really stands out. We've gone to great pains with the Model 3 to design it for manufacturing, and to not have all sorts of bells and whistles and special features that, like for example, with Model X, Model X became kind of like a technology bandwagon of every cool thing we could imagine all at once. It's like everything all at once. That is a terrible strategy. You really want to start off simple and add things over time, but that was some hubris, a little overconfident there. So with Model 3, it's the opposite. We're designing it to be easy to make. We've got, I think, a much better supply chain in place where we have got the A team from the A suppliers. We didn't have that for the Model X or the Model S. And as far as we know, there are no issues. So that strategy appears to be paying off, but there could be something that we missed that we just don't know about right now.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay. And you mentioned production in the Gigafactory. I know you're doing some component assembly there for the Model 3, but given that it is on track to be the world's largest factory or maybe even the world's largest building, is it such a stretch to think that you might be able to produce vehicles in that facility?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, just in terms of making battery cells, modules, plaques, motors and Power Electronics, just on that basis, and of course the Powerwall and Powerpack, on that basis alone, it was effectively the largest building in the world of any kind. I mean, you could put three Pentagons – more than three Pentagons – I think four Pentagons? I don't know, a lot just in the Gigafactory. It's really difficult to appreciate the magnitude of the structure unless you actually visit it, but there's room to expand.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from John Murphy with Bank of America.
John Murphy - Bank of America-Merrill Lynch:
Hi, good afternoon. I just wanted to follow up on the CapEx topic. I mean, you guys did kind of fade down your expectation for CapEx ahead of or in conjunction with the Model 3 launch from $2 billion to $2.5 billion to $2 billion. And then the spend this quarter was relatively low, at least relative to what the run rate implied. I'm just curious, is there some level of capital efficiency that you're coming across and could you possibly be significantly below this $2 billion number ahead of the launch or into the launch.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
We are always trying to be capital efficient. That is the underlying theme of every step we take. And clearly, some of that is part of it. But I think overall we will be – again, because of this massive scale of payments, whether it's last week of June or first week of July, how many hundreds of millions we end up paying, it's hard to be precise. It's almost like an escrow of capital spend that we're going through here. So I don't think it's any indication of anything else except timing at the highest level, beyond the capital efficiency that we're continually working on.
John Murphy - Bank of America-Merrill Lynch:
Okay. And then a second question. I mean, the residuals seem to keep performing better than you were expecting. Is there any opportunity to potentially lower monthly lease payments to drive higher unit volume demand going forward?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Actually I think one of the traps that the auto industry has got into in the past is having unrealistic residuals. And then finding that they're upside down, particularly when recession came along. We want to be very cautious about falling into that trap. So, yeah, we don't want to do that.
John Murphy - Bank of America-Merrill Lynch:
Okay. Great. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
And sort of reiterating in advance that our cars have that cars in the past have not had, no other car has is that the software keeps getting better. So functionality – keep adding more and more functionality to the car even though the hardware stayed the same. If you bought Model S four years ago, it's way better than when you bought it and that really makes a difference for residuals.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from James Albertine with Consumer Edge.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Great. Thank you, and good afternoon. On the semi-truck just very quickly, if I could ask, is the attractiveness of that sort of vertical that you could sell, sort of in bulk to fewer customers or more vehicles per customer? And given your partnerships in the past, would you envision partnering with a manufacturer on that side of the business, or would this be more akin to your sort of go it alone strategy on the auto side?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
No, we'll manufacture that ourselves, and most of that semi is actually made out of Model 3 parts, by the way. It's actually using a bunch of Model 3 motors without revealing too much about the future of it, so we're able to use a very high volume vehicle, and then combine several motors to have -- I think it's actually going to have a very good gross margin like – that's just not something that the other -- it's like you can't do that with a traditional truck. So effectively that was just a very compelling product that has low unit cost.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. The incremental complexity of building that is much less than it might seem.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Because of all the (57:08)
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
And are we right to think about that, though, as a contractual sort of opportunity, right? I mean, you go to sort of a handful of fleet operators and you could sell sort of more vehicles per customer. Is that the right way to think about it?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
That is how it would occur, yeah. It tends to be a much more of a straightforward economic decision for the fleet operators. They just look at it and say cost per ton per mile (57:34). And it's like if it's better they'll just buy a huge number, and if it's worse they would buy hardly any and we're confident it'll be better.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Okay, great. And then if I just may follow-up on the demand questions that were sort of asked earlier. Wondering as you're getting more used vehicles back into the pipeline, is there any data to support that you're using those vehicles to attract potentially new customer to the brand, or alternatively is there data that would suggest that perhaps it could be cannibalizing some of the newer vehicles? Sorry to dwell on demand, but I just wanted to see if there was anything, given now we're a few years on, you're getting a lot of vehicles back off lease presumably. If there's any indication there one way or the other?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think it's still early days, it's still at relatively low numbers, but the indication is that we're introducing a new customer to Tesla at those lower price points.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, exactly. The demand actually increases really exponentially as price drops. (58:52) when we looked at it, I think we are looking at the right numbers, but the demand at the Model 3 price point appeared to be somewhere between 30 times and 70 times higher than at the Model S price point. I mean, look at it, like there's 100,000 premium sedans sold in the U.S. every year. I think we're about a third of that. But there are 17 million vehicles in total sold. So premium sedans are like nothing, less than 1% of the market. 0.5%.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
So a 7 series customer for your brand new, and a 5 series customer for your sort of used is maybe the right way to think about it. Is that fair?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Or a 3 series customer for the used as well, yeah.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Okay, understood. Well, thank you so much for taking the questions. A – [06WRB0-E Jon McNeill]>
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. But it is interesting to consider that the magnitude of -- this is really maybe underappreciated, like consider 17 million cars and trucks sold in the U.S. per year, of which only 100,000 are premium sedans and we have a one-third market share. If we can replicate that in other segments, the results are obvious.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Yeah.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Okay. Before we go on to the next question, I want to do just a time check here. We're at the hour mark. We have five more analysts that want to ask questions. Do you want to go on for a little bit longer, Elon?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, we can go a little longer.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Okay. Sheria, let's take the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Brad Erickson with Pacific Crest Securities.
Brad D. Erickson - Pacific Crest Securities:
Hi. Thanks for taking my question. Elon, I think couple years ago you said you could envision at some point stepping away from Tesla, as CEO anyways, towards the end of the decade as Model 3 kind of got up and running. As you were likely to be pursuing a lot of these adjacent opportunities, clearly a lot still there on the horizon, but now with some more of these opportunities being a part of Tesla's business, does that change your view of staying actively in place at Tesla longer into the future.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, let me make myself clear, I intend to be actively involved with Tesla for the rest of my life. Hopefully stopping before I get senile or too crazy, I don't know. But essentially for as long as I can positively contribute to Tesla, I intend to have a significant involvement with Tesla. But that doesn't mean I should be CEO forever. I think my main – the most valuable thing I could contribute is kind of product design and technology, but that's my forte; that's what I like doing, and that's what I imagine doing in the sort of very long term.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Okay. Sheria, let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Jeff Osborne with Cowen & Co.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
Yeah, good evening. Thanks for squeezing me in. I had just two questions. One, Elon, at the TED Talks, and I think in a couple tweets you had talked about adding three Gigafactories, just following up to Tyler Frank's question on CapEx needs. Can you just talk about what your ultimate vision of Tesla over the next few years, Model Y factory, truck factories, truck service centers, three Gigafactories, China expansion. Is all of that going to be funded with internal cash, or do you see partnerships funding despite the low margins that the battery industry has. I'm just trying to get a sense of what your ultimate vision will cost.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Right. It's incremental dilution along the way. It's hard to say. I mean, I'm sure there will be some funding rounds that happen in the future. It's kind of a tradeoff between how fast do we want to grow versus like we can grow slower with no dilution, really. For sure we could grow at a moderate pace with no dilution. We could grow at a fast pace with some dilution. Or we could grow at a very fast pace with a high level of dilution.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
10x growth in three years sounds pretty fast to me, but maybe not to you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, yeah, but you have to look at say going from – when we went from the Roadster to the Model S, we went from making around 500 units a year to making 20,000 units a year. So that's a hell of a growth by a factor of 40.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
Got it. Maybe just in the interest of time, the second question I had is just on it would be helpful given that there's hundreds of thousands of people that have put their deposit on the Model 3. Can you just update us on what the cumulative U.S. vehicles sold that you have relative to the 200,000 number to get that $7,500 tax credit? You mentioned elasticity of demand at certain price points and certainly there's a large contingent of people that put a deposit that unfortunately won't get that benefit. So it'll be nice just to be able to track that metric, so as the Model 3 launches in the coming months, we can see which folks will get that, and what the impact the demand is for those that don't.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think most people are going to be able to get it that have put down a deposit. And, yeah, it's sort of the credit rolls off – it's not like a complete (01:05:19) rolls off over time. And we are prioritizing U.S. production, which also helps us to keep things simple because we're not making many versions of the car for many different countries. Yeah, so I mean I think provided some of these – I don't know, I guess it's probably most people putting down a deposit would be able to get the full tax credit.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
Is there a way you could just give us what the cumulative numbers thus far in the U.S. quarter to date – sorry, inception to date?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
No. Here's the problem, if we do that, then people run off and make all sorts of conclusions based on that that are not predictive of the future, because you can't test drive Model 3. If you come into our stores and you want to buy a Model 3, you could buy a Model S or Model X instead. We antisell the Model 3. But our net reservations continue to climb week after week. No advertising, antiselling, nothing to test drive, still grows every week.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
Got it. Thanks so much.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right.
Deepak Ahuja - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
And maybe we will probably under the present regime, the federal income – the tax credits on the car continue even after we hit the 200,000 limit. And they continue for several quarters but at a slightly lower, depleting scale, so it's going to be beneficial for customers even beyond the 200,000 mark.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, absolutely. And I should perhaps touch again on this whole notion of – it's almost like over the years there's been all these sort of irritating articles like Tesla survives because of government subsidies and tax credits. It drives me crazy. Here's what those fools don't realize. If Tesla is not alone in the car industry, but all those things would be material if we were the only car company in existence. We are not. There are many car companies. What matters is whether we have a relative advantage in the market. And in fact the incentives give us a relative disadvantage. Tesla has succeeded in spite of the incentives not because of them. But these incentives have limited lifetime and limited scale. Like, for example, the federal tax credit and then that caps out of the 200,000, the CARB credits, which, because the CARB rules are relatively weak, we can sell – there are some quarters where we can't even sell CARB credits. And when we can, it's maybe $0.50 on a dollar or something like that, whereas the other car companies get to fully absorb the value of the CARB credit. So just for example gives GM roughly – from my count, $7,000 to $10,000 advantage over Tesla for their Chevy Bolt. That's why you shouldn't ask like why, well, GM appears to be losing $10,000 a car on the Bolt. No, they're not. They are making it up on CARB credits. But they get the full retail value of the CARB credit, whereas we get the wholesale value when we're lucky. But the CARB credits are only effective at a production rate of about 20,000 to 30,000 vehicles a year. So that's why you'll see, mark my words, it's not going to be any higher than that for the Chevy Bolt. That's on order of 25,000 units a year, or 0.10% of our initial production rate for the Model 3, or 0.05% of what Model 3 will be next year. So Tesla's competitive advantage improves as the incentives go away. This continues to be something that is not well understood. And for that sake – I hope somebody doesn't mention those Nevada tax credits, which for the Gigafactory, it makes it sound like we got a $1.3 billion check from the State of Nevada. We did not. Those tax credits are made up – the vast majority is just sales and use tax abatement on equipment in the Gigafactory. Taxes that otherwise wouldn't have been there because there was just a bunch of rocks there before. And you don't get a lot of taxes from rocks. So that's why it's essentially a no-lose proposition for the state. And in order for us to actually earn $1.3 billion in tax credits for the Gigafactory, we have to generate over the course of 20 years about $100 billion in output from the Gigafactory. So it's worth about like 1%. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth and we appreciate it, and that's nice. But this is obviously 1% is not the difference between success and failure output of the factory. But a lot of articles provided it in the past tense. Tesla received $1.3 billion. No, we haven't. We did not receive that. If somebody wants to send us that, great we'll take it. But looking at the bank now I don't see it there. That's because it's just sales and just tax payment over 20 years. So the key takeaway is that Tesla's competitive advantage improves with scale. It doesn't get worse.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Okay. Thanks, Elon. Let's go to the next question please.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Joseph Spak with RBC Capital Markets.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Thanks. Just a quick one on service. By our math, the cumulative number of vehicles you delivered and the amount of storage and service stations are a little bit over – are something around 700 per, I guess, station, and I realize you're adding some more of these mobile units, but I just wanted to know bigger picture, how you think about coverage in a more steady state or at least at a 0.5 million unit rate? Like, what is the right level of coverage needed for the larger fleet?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think rather than thinking about store or service center locations, we think about it in terms of mobile units and lifts. And so we are building larger service centers over time that have more lifts, or our initial service centers, it might have had two or three lifts, and we're building now service centers with 40 lifts to 60 lifts, sometimes 80 lifts. And so there's a density within the service centers but the mobile capability expands that quite greatly. So I think a lot of people do incorrect analysis to take cars and service divided by locations because the locations vary so widely, but that's essentially how we're thinking about capacity and planning capacity. And as Deepak mentioned earlier, our throughputs and efficiency are getting much better over time, and we'll continue to improve those. So it's our goal to stay ahead of the install-base capacity so we're providing great service, but really the Model 3 has been designed for higher reliability, and as Elon has said many times, the best service is no service at all.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Exactly. Our aspiration would be we make zero service revenue because the car never breaks.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Absolutely. That our service centers are sort of like the old Maytag repairman.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Rob Cihra with Guggenheim Partners.
Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC:
Hi, thank you very much. Two quick ones, I guess, if I could. One just on energy. Your megawatt hours declined sequentially, which just seemed surprising, thinking demand's well above supply still at this stage, so when we would expect any more meaningful ramp there. And then separately on automotive, given that you seem to be in the mood to talk about future unveils, which is great, any chance I could push that by asking about the future urban transport bus – I'm not sure what you want to refer to it as, but the reason I ask is because that one seems a lot less about the product and more about just a completely different model for transportation and requiring full autonomy and that sort of thing. I mean, is that the kind of thing you're thinking three years from now or 10 years from now or anything in between? Thank you very much.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Sure. With respect to the battery stuff, it's a little lumpy right now because we had a big inflation in fourth quarter with Southern California Edison. And then we had a bit of a gap between the Powerwall 1 and Powerwall 2. So we should start to see that correcting in, Q2, Q3, and particularly, towards the end of this year I would expect quite a dramatic ramp in storage deployment, like really dramatic.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, and it's worth pointing out that we do still have a significant backlog in Powerwall demand, and we're building capacity to address that and ramping it. We had a few challenges in parts of the supply chain as we've been ramping that throughout the quarter, the first quarter, but those are freeing up, and we're seeing the production rates improve week on week. But it's not indicative of demand. It's really our challenges in ramping the new products.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. Like I said, we feel really good about quite dramatic quarter-over-quarter increases that I think look every quarter I can imagine in the future it's going to be really dramatic increases in stationary storage output. It'll grow faster than the car volume, and the car volume is growing pretty fast.
Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC:
Okay. And the bus?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
On the bus, yeah. Having given a bit more thought to it, I don't know if the bus thing, if that's actually going to be something that makes sense in a shared fully autonomous environment because if you have a share – it costs very little, like it costs less than a bus ticket to make use of a shared economy fleet to go wherever you want point-to-point. Well, why don't you just use that? So I don't know. I don't know if the bus thing, it does have the density to some degree, but then you could basically have something like a higher-density Model X or something like that that's got the 10 or 12 seats in it. Would you want more than that? I don't know. And when you (01:18:20) then the density in traffic I think can be fully alleviated with tunnels. Yeah, it's kind of like the tunnel thing that we talked a little bit about that at TED and interesting to see like the commentary afterwards was – it was like the critics or the critical commentary was – there's a group that thinks that the whole, sort of, automated tunnel with electric (01:18:45) basically like the tunnel thing -- there's a group that says it is obvious, and there's a group that says it's impossible. And I would like those two groups to meet. It's a bit like sort of like there's a group that is like a Flat Earth Society and the Hollow Globe Society, I think they should meet too. Have a debate.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Sheria, why don't we take the last questioner, please?
Operator:
Thank you. Our final question comes from Charlie Anderson with Dougherty & Co.
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Thanks for sneaking me in. I wonder you mentioned antiselling before of the Model 3. Is there a level of production where you flip from antiselling to selling? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, I don't know maybe later this year. Probably not for the next six to nine months.
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Thanks so much.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Thank you everyone for joining us today. Have a great day.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Thanks.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference, thank you for your participation. You may all disconnect and have a wonderful day.
Executives:
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc. Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc. Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc. Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc. Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.
Analysts:
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC Aileen Elizabeth Smith - Bank of America Merrill Lynch Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc. James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management) Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla Q4 and Full Year 2016 Financial Results and Q&A Webcast. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session and instructions will follow at that time. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would now like to introduce your host for today's conference, Mr. Jeff Evanson of Investor Relations. You may begin.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you, Vicki, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's fourth quarter and full year 2016 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk; JB Straubel; Jason Wheeler; and Jon McNeill. Our Q4 results are announced in the update letter at the same link as this webcast. During our call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. We will start today's call with some brief comments by Elon, followed by the Q&A session. During the Q&A, try and limit yourself to one question and one follow-up, please, and press star one now to join the question queue. Okay, Elon, over to you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you. First of all, I'd like to announce that our CFO, Jason Wheeler, has decided to leave Tesla in April, so at the end of next month, to pursue opportunities in public policy. Jason will be replaced by Deepak Ahuja, who is Tesla's first CFO and worked for the company for more than seven years before stepping away in 2015. Deepak will formally take over as CFO in early March with Jason remaining at Tesla through April to ensure a smooth transition. And let's see, Jason, would you like to say anything?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, sure. First, Elon, thanks for the opportunity.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
It's been a great ride and I'm really going to miss working with all the wonderful people at Tesla. This is an A team and when I walked in the door, I was very passionate about the mission of the company. And today, I'm even more passionate than I was on the day I walked in. And I think it's also important to say, that I'm looking to scratch an itch that I've had for many, many years now. I'm going to go do something in the public sector, but I wouldn't have felt comfortable about leaving if we didn't have a really good plug-and-play solution in place for the company. And I think with Deepak's history here, on the verge of bankruptcy and everything that he's gone through, he's well positioned to -
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
A long time ago.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
A long time ago. A long, long time ago. He's well positioned to take it to the next level of growth and I've spent a good amount of time with him in the past week, and he's super energized and ready to go. He's a great leader, and I think I leave Tesla in good hands.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
All right. And, Jason, thank you again for everything you have done.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Absolutely. My pleasure.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So, let's see. I think – yeah.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
I think we're ready for the first question.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, let's just start – dive right in to questions.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right, Vicki, first question, please.
Operator:
And our first question comes from the line of Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley. Your line is now open.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
First, good luck Jason, and congrats, Deepak. Welcome back. So, Elon, a question for you on Mars. Let's kick it off with Mars, okay?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Really?
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Yes, it has Tesla relevance, though, so just bear with me.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I admire long-term thinking, but it's impressive.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Well, numerous reports have suggested the new administration may be in favor of accelerating a mission to send humans to Mars. I'm curious if you think this is accurate in spirit. And if launched, how could this potentially change your balance of time spent between Tesla and SpaceX? Could it potentially change the rationale of keeping Tesla and SpaceX as independent companies? And this is a serious question, Elon.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay, well, yes. When you started out, I was a little curious as to how this would become relevant to Tesla. But, as I said before, I expect to remain with Tesla essentially forever, unless somebody kicks me out. So, that remains my intention. And I have been pursuing the Mars thing at SpaceX and sustainable energy at Tesla for a long time, simultaneously. So, I think we've got into a pretty good rhythm, and, yes, I certainly don't think I'm going to change my actions as a result of an initiative by administration. Although I think a Mars mission would be amazing and really energize the public, domestically and worldwide, just as the Apollo mission to the Moon did almost half a century ago. So, yes, that's probably the most I can say about that, yes.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Okay. Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
As far as I can.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Thank you. Thank you. Just a follow-up. On insurance, if your cars prove to be as much as 90% safer than other cars on a per mile basis, as I think you've alluded as a reasonable target medium-term, and if insurance companies only offer your customers, say, like a piddling 5% discount versus a comparably priced car, would you consider offering a service or product like P&C insurance directly to Tesla owners from your own platform and your own stores? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Jon, do you want to take that?
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
Hey, Adam, it's Jon. We're actually currently doing that. And we've been doing it quietly. But in Asia in particular, where we started this, now the majority of Tesla cars are sold with an insurance product that is customized to Tesla. It takes into account not only this autopilot safety features, but also the maintenance cost of the car. So, it's our vision in the future that we'll be able to offer a single price for the car, maintenance, and insurance, in a really compelling offering for the consumer. And we're currently doing that today.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, and this is not to the exclusion of insurance providers, but I mean, if we find that insurance providers are not matching the insurance proportionate to the rest of the car then, if we need to, we will in-source (7:12) it, but I think we'll find that insurance providers do adjust the insurance costs proportionate to the risk of a Tesla.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
That's true, that's true. We're doing this with insurance partners today.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Right.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Okay. Thanks a lot.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of David Tamberrino with Goldman Sachs. Your line is now open.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Thanks. Good evening, gentlemen.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Good afternoon. Evening for you, I'm sure. But, yes.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Well, it's been a long day for me. It'll be a long night. Curious as to what has changed on your end. Obviously, you got a – made an acquisition. You've hired a individual (7:56) in manufacturing from last year, but really moving from the Model S and Model X to the Model 3 ramp that you're looking for in the back half of 2017 here and into 2018, how have you gone about the Model 3 development differently, versus the Model S and Model X, that will really be able to unlock the key to driving production much higher than what your previous ramps have looked like for new products?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Right. The Model 3 is designed with – it's really designed for manufacturing. It's considerably a simpler car than the Model S or the Model X. Some of these allocations (8:40) are obvious. For example, the Model 3 only has one screen, whereas the Model S and Model X have two screens, and two separate computers powering each screen. The Model 3 has 1.5 kilometers of wiring. The Model S has three kilometers of wiring, so we simplified the wiring system considerably. A lot of the bells and whistles that are present on a Model S and Model X are not present on a Model 3. So, we don't have self-presenting door handles, for example, or falcon-wing doors. These reduce the risk substantially in the ramp, and make it just easier to scale. So, I think it's going to be a very compelling car, but it's just a simpler design and we also understand manufacturing a lot better than we did in the past, and we're also able to get usually the A team at the A supplier for Model 3. It's rare that we're not able to get that, whereas, particularly for Model S and to some degree for Model X, when we were trying to get suppliers for Model S, a lot of the top tier suppliers wouldn't even work with us (10:07). They thought we'd go bankrupt. And the IHS (10:15) basically, the industry predictor for volume of the Model S had an official prediction of 3,000 units lifetime for the Model S. And for a lot of the big supplier, particularly the large sort of conglomerate suppliers, they just plug that number into their predictions. They ignore what we say, and then they say, well, the volume is either too small to count or the (10:47) cost is enormous, because the fixed cost must be allocated over such a small volume. Now, in fact, we are building something on the order of 50,000 Model Ses per year. And so, having shown the results of the Model S and the Model X, the interest from suppliers went from basically getting like the worst team on second tier suppliers to getting the best team on first tier suppliers. Really a big difference.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Got it. Okay. And then just following up on that, as I think about reduced complexity of the vehicle, understood, from a actual line speed manufacturing perspective, for the Model 3, what are you doing differently than the manufacturing process that is going to allow you to drive that ramp in production? As I think about 50,000 units Model S doing on an annual basis, it's good, it's great. You've been making that vehicle for the last three years, four years.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Right. As opposed to, yes, an annualized rate of 250,000, five times that number for Model 3. That's a reasonable question to ask. There's just a lot more automation than there is for Model S and Model X. We have the Gigafactory, of course. That's a huge asset for factory powertrain, power electronics, chargers, and a few other things. So, that's a huge asset. And yes, so, also I've refocused most of Tesla engineering, including design engineering into designing the factory. I think in the future, the factory will be a more important product than the car itself. I've said this before, but our goal is to be the best manufacturer on Earth. This is our real goal. I don't know if we will succeed, but I think we're making good progress in that direction. And that's – yes. It's really (13:20) the factory as just an enormous product with at least (13:27) more complex than whatever it makes (13:31).
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, I might just add that we've really learned a lot of lessons, especially from the difficult Model X ramp. That's something that's in our recent memory. And we fought through it and succeeded. But I think in the design of the Model 3 and the systems in the lines that produce it, many of those learnings have been incorporated from the beginning. So, the amount of complexities in the operations to assemble the car is dramatically reduced, the amount of operations that involve (14:03) where there's more judgment of the operator, is dramatically reduced, almost eliminated. And a lot of these things that we could identify directly as the bottlenecks that hurt us on the Model X ramp, we've been able to target specifically and reduce or eliminate. So that has, though painful, it was a very helpful experience for us to get ready for Model 3.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. I do want to emphasize with production ramps in general that they follow an S curve. So, the rate of production is as fast as the slowest component in the vehicle. And when you have several thousand unique items, it can move as (14:47) fast as the least likely and worst executing part of Tesla or our suppliers. That's just the way it goes. So, you're going through a series of constraints. You try to anticipate as many as possible the newer issues that pop up every week and then we attack them and get them (15:17) schedule. But then another issue will pop up in the following week. So, it's schedule whack-a-mole. And if we knew what would be late now, we would've attacked it. But some of these things only come to light late in the game. And when you have a global supply chain, you inherit a lot of force majeure risk from around the world. And so, it's one of the things that I think we want to do is just minimize force majeure risk. If you inherit, like, every force majeure risk on Earth, then, of course, things are going to go wrong, because Earth is big. So, I think we're going to increasingly over time rationalize our supply chain to minimize the force majeure risk. It's very important. But yes, it's always tricky being a public company, reporting on a quarterly basis. Even small differences in where that exponential part of the S curve is, can make quite a big impact on a quarter. (16:38) moving around an exponential curve, just small changes here and there have quite a big effect. And then things get more predictable as you get to the flat part of the S curve, the top of the S curve. That's why it's a lot (16:56) easier to predict, say, what things would be next year or the end of this year as opposed to what they'd be month by month this year.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Understood. Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thank you.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of Ryan Brinkman with JPMorgan. Your line is now open.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Great. Thanks for taking my question. Just regarding the explanation in the shareholder letter that you experienced a little autopilot revenue, a little new revenue in 4Q, can you talk about what delayed the software updates into 1Q? Was it the switch from Mobileye in any way? And then talk about how the current capabilities of autopilot in 1Q in terms of performance and safety, how that's better than maybe what was offered previously?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, we had some challenges in the transition from Mobileye to Tesla software running on GPU. Our original plan was to have a migration strategy, where we have Mobileye and Tesla Vision operating at the same time to have kind of a smooth process, but Mobileye refused to do that. So, that poised (18:16) us to re-spin the board and caused unexpected delays where we had to basically (18:22) from the board and just kind of (18:26) Tesla Vision. Safety is always our primary concern. So, really we could have released Tesla Vision and including (18:42) high speed, probably three months ago – I was driving at a high speed personally three months ago, but I think we want to just have an exhaustive testing process, vetting (18:57) process before enabling that throughout the fleet. So, we've been edging our way up there gradually. Now, longitudinal control, the Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is at 80 miles an hour. And Autosteer is at 50 miles an hour, and I think we should be able to get, unless testing shows something different, we should be able to get them both to around the maybe 85 miles an hour next month and be at parity with Hardware 1 (19:36). And then obviously things will only improve from there. So, that's that.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
(19:45) last question on the $500 million cash generation outlook, including growth of non-recourse debt, how much of that relates to the automotive operations versus SolarCity or maybe you probably don't want to break it out that way. Just how are you thinking about the contribution from, like, tax equity funding versus maybe call it combined, like, Tesla SolarCity, like, ongoing operations?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure, yes. So, this is Jason. So, (20:11) commitment that we made when we closed the deal was on the Solar side. So that's what the $500 million relates to. And that's going to come from a number of factors. One of the things we're already starting to see great traction on is a shift away from reasoned systems (20:25) to doing loans and cash sales of systems. We provided some information in the letter about that. That's going well. And we've also done that on the vehicle side, it's worth noting. And then the other thing is as part of the acquisition, we committed to $150 million in synergies. And some of that cash generation is obviously going to come from going after those synergies. And we're on track to go get that. We've got lots of opportunities on customer acquisition cost. Tesla has a very strong global brand. We've got a great retail footprint. So, we've got the pieces in place to really drive customer acquisition cost down. And then obviously on the manufacturing side as well, we're rethinking through what that's going to do for us and how we can drive cost savings there as well.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Great. Thanks for that color.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. No problem.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of Joseph Spak with RBC Capital Markets. Your line is now open.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Thanks. First question, I guess, relates to the delivery guidance, which I know you limited to the first half. But, as we think about the full year and the back half and the launch of the Model 3, is there the potential for a disruption to Model S and Model X. Is that also one of the factors why you've sort of decided to sort of guide the way you did?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Do you want to?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, sure. I think the way we're thinking about that is there's going to be pretty high bars on the (22:08) delivery for Model 3 in the second half of the year. And I think Elon described that well when he talked about the S curve. So, we didn't want to muddy our guidance by doing some kind of a combined number for the year. And obviously, execution on Model X and Model S and execution on getting ready for Model 3 in the first half is what's important. And those are the things that we really want to point investors to in how we're measuring ourselves.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It's sort of calculating the area under the curve is tricky when you're in an exponential. And it always starts out tiny and then spools up. Well, it spools up exponentially, but generally people have trouble wrapping their minds around an exponential, the natural tendency is to extrapolate on the straight line. And so, that's why it was important to emphasize that this is – the spool up is an exponential. It kind of does get into a linear zone, and then it goes into a logarithm, (23:14).
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
And then well, I guess, just to follow on that, I was wondering if you guys would be willing to indicate when you think configuration for the Model 3 would open? But separately also, Elon, there's been a lot of news or noise around unionization at Fremont. And I was wondering if you guys could give a little bit of color on your views of potentially unionization and if it did occur, sort of how that changes the cost structure?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. Well, there is obviously quite a strong effort by UAW to unionize Tesla. And actually a lot of people at Tesla who have been approached by UAW have expressed concerns about this. And there were also a number of claims made by someone who I think is de facto an employee for UAW, but at Tesla. And there's one piece and probably (24:22) published in the next day or two days, because I wanted to make sure I fully investigated the claims before writing a (24:28). But, the fact of the matter is that over the last few months, Tesla's injury rate is less than half of the industry average, contrary to the allegations made. And the compensation, if you look at somebody who started four years ago, the vesting period for Tesla stock is four years. So if you said, what is the outcome for somebody who started four years ago, it is by far the highest in the auto industry. There was an allegation that people were underpaid at Tesla, but in fact, they are the highest paid in the industry, if you include the equity, which obviously you should include. So, there are really only disadvantages for someone to want the UAW here. I mean the track record is worse of every other company.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I don't think [ph] this is likely to occur.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Okay. Thank you.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of John Murphy with Bank of America. Your line is now open.
Aileen Elizabeth Smith - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Good afternoon, guys. This is Aileen Smith on for John. First, and a more high level question. I realize it's still very early days in terms of the new Trump administration, but with Scott Pruitt now head of the EPA, are you anticipating any changes with respect to the oversight or regulations under CARB and its relationship to the EPA? Elon, is that coming up in your meetings with the Trump team at all, or any of the discussions? And how would you respond in the event that regulations and standards or the potential to generate the credits were to be altered?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure, well, it's only come up briefly. And my response is that, I think it will be fine to get rid of incentives and subsidies, but that should be uniformly applied to all industries. It would obviously be wrong to get rid of any sort of government intervention in sustainable energy while retaining it in fossil fuels. But if the principle is to get rid of government intervention, that should be uniformly applied, not unfairly applied. So, that's the only thing. That was my comments, but there was no response given. They listened to that. And that's how I feel. And as I mentioned on our prior call, the reality actually is that, if electric vehicle incentives went away tomorrow, Tesla's competitive position would improve. Part of the reason why GM is able to sell the Bolt at the price that they are able to do, while on paper making a loss, is that their ZEV credits are worth twice as much as they are to Tesla, because they get the full retail value of their credits, which is worth about $10,000 more to them than it is to Tesla. We get basically $0.50 on the $1 when we can sell the ZEV credits, which is not always. Last quarter, we were able to sell only a tiny amount of ZEV credits, because the ZEV mandate is just already really weak. So, the irony is, getting rid of it would actually improve our competitive position. And the ZEV credits only apply to 14 states in the U.S., (28:23) 14. They don't apply internationally. And then things like the federal tax credit for electric vehicles caps out at, I think, a few hundred thousand cars. And we're not far from that point. So, basically, credits either don't scale to high volume or they're disadvantageous to Tesla. Even in California, which is our home state, California legislature put an income cap on anyone who could get the California tax credit for EVs, which then excluded a whole bunch of our customers, which I think is counterproductive to the biggest manufacturing player in California. Why the hell the legislature did that, I do not know. But it was harmful to the state.
Aileen Elizabeth Smith - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay. Great. That's helpful. And then sort of a second question, you guys gave some helpful disclosure in terms of the vehicle order growth for the Model S and the Model X in the quarter. Can you talk about the order growth for the Model 3? The last measurement that we received on the size of the wait list or the order book was 400,000, plus or minus. Can you talk about how that's grown over the past few quarters, I mean if we look at the customer deposits on your balance sheet, it actually declined sequentially from 3Q to 4Q. So how much, if any of that, is related to the Model 3?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, sure, so this is Jason. It's not related to the Model 3. We still had a number of Signature Series Model X reservations, where there was just a higher deposit required for those cars, and we were able to deliver a number of those in Q4. So that's the primary driver behind the total reported decrease in the customer deposits line.
Aileen Elizabeth Smith - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay. And can you give any size of the order book for the Model 3 as it stands right now?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
We're still in great shape.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, we don't report that number, because people read too much into it. Yes, exactly as Jason is saying, that is really not our concern. Yes. And he sells the Model 3.
Jonathan McNeill - Tesla, Inc.:
We don't want to make the line longer.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, that's a good point.
Aileen Elizabeth Smith - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay. All right. Thank you very much.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of Colin Langan with UBS. Your line is now open.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Oh, great. Elon, in the press release, you give comments on margins for the first half of the year. Any broad color on how we should think about margins in the second half, particularly as the Model 3 launches? I mean will that be profitable day one, or is that going to take some time for that to ramp? Any color there?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
(31:05) that it will not be profitable on day one, because of that exponential issue that I mentioned. The early Model 3s will be horribly negative margin, particularly on day one, when I say literally day one. Because you're starting at a tiny, tiny rate, as you spool up this giant machine. So, it's – like, no company on Earth could – it's not a function of Tesla. It is like physically impossible. So, you have to get the production rate to some reasonable capacity percentage of the system. If the capacity of the production system is X, until you are at least like half X, your gross margin is going to be weak, and it's going to be terrible when you're like an order of magnitude below, or if you're 10% of X, or less. It's going to be terrible. But then it'll get really good as you start to approach 100% capacity. Like, then it gets great. And then, as we get to the initial phase of capacity of 5,000 a week, I would expect to see gross margins comparable to that of the Model S and Model X.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
So, in the next year that you should get to the 5,000 per week, is that right?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, I feel pretty confident that we should get there by the end of this year, to 5,000 a week. Now, I do want to separate this from parts orders. I know a number of our suppliers are listening. It's impossible to keep – like nothing is a secret these days, it seems. Yes. It's like major intelligence organizations cannot keep a secret. It's like, really – I don't know who can, honestly. So, when we place parts orders with our suppliers, we've told them 1,000 a week in July, 2,000 a week in August, and 4,000 a week in September. These are parts orders. Then the parts need to arrive. They need to be turned into a car. And the car needs to be delivered to customers. None of these things occur instantaneously. And we have what I call, like, maybe the term paper problem of, like, I was a teaching assistant in college. And no matter what date we set the exam paper for, when the term paper was due, there's always like some number of people that are late. It's just the way it goes. People sometimes – well, and I'm guilty of this too. Like too optimistic about the timing or they get unlucky or something like that. So, we have to set these really strict dates, then some number of people are late, but it only has to be (34:27) 1%, and then we either have to make those parts manually at great cost or slow down the production rate. And when I say great cost, when you make something manually as opposed to through mass production, it can be 10 times, 20 times, 30 times more than a part that's handmade as opposed to made with high volume production equipment. So, that's essentially – I'm trying to give you, like, what's the problem space look like in my head so that you can at least try to model it. You know what I know. And if I knew which 1% of suppliers it was, right now, I would honestly take action. But I don't because I don't know who's going to be unlucky. I don't know who's being really optimistic. But the 1,000, 2,000, 4,000, those are the deadlines we've set out for our suppliers for parts delivery and then parts get made into cars, cars need to get delivered. Those are three separate steps.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Great. And one last – I just have – my last question is just any color on cash burn? And I think last time you mentioned that you were confident you wouldn't need a capital raise. Do you still feel that way? I mean, I think it was close to $1 billion on the quarter and it sounds like CapEx is going to rise next year. How should we think about cash burn cadence and the (35:59) no capital raise going forward? Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, so this is really a question of what's the risk tolerance of the company, or how close to the edge do we want to go. According to our financial plan, no capital needs to be raised for the Model 3, but we get very close to the edge. So, then that's probably not the best thing for shareholders on a risk adjusted basis. So, we're considering a number of options, but I think it probably makes sense to raise capital to reduce risk.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Got it. All right. Thank you very much for the color.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Colin, I just wanted to add a couple of points there too.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Okay.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
On the cash receive end, we see $1 billion in cash burn, but I don't think that's fully accurate. We had $522 million in CapEx, so we're investing at a very healthy rate ahead of what we need to do for Model 3. And then there were certainly some timing differences. We talked about in our deliveries press release, we had 2,750 cars that we missed delivering them by a couple of days. So, I think there's a little cross quarter timing going on there. And it's not indicative of what cash flow from operations is going to look like in the future. Another, to circle back to your point and one of the questions from earlier, about what's different about Model 3, I thought maybe I'll provide just a little bit more color on costing, and this will help you think a little bit about margins on a go-forward basis too. From the very beginning of the Model 3 program, the costing of the car was front and center and has always been a key part of the conversation and the decisions that have been made. And it goes all the way back to first principles as Elon likes to talk about. On a part-by-part basis, we've been looking at what is the value of the commodities in that part with a reasonable cost to fabricate the part and what's a reasonable margin on top of it. And that's the starting point for costing for everything that's gone into the Model 3. The other thing that's important, and we've talked about this a lot over the past couple of quarters is just being more efficient with our capital spend, and JB's done a fabulous job with this up at the Gigafactory. I don't know if you had a chance to attend the event or not, but the volumetric efficiency there is quite stunning. And if you can be (38:44) more in a smaller footprint, the capital required is less, and the less capital that's required to do things, the less the depreciation load is going to be on each unit produced once you get to volume, production and deliveries. So, (38:58) I thought it would be good to add that additional color to your comments and your questions.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Okay. Thanks very much.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, it's sort of applying the rocket equation to manufacturing. And it's, yes, volume – essentially – well, on the rocket equation, it's taking its mass efficiency, but like volumetric efficiency of the factory as Jason was mentioning and then exit velocity of product from the factory, kind of just slow it down (39:29) pretty much just to those two things.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Got it. All right. Thank you very much.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of Brian Johnson with Barclays. Your line is now open.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes, good afternoon. Just a few questions about the cash flow and CapEx and cash needs. First, I recognize that you're now consolidating in SolarCity, but if you were just to very roughly give us what the old automotive adjusted cash flow was and try to kind of disentangle that from the cash flow coming out of the former SolarCity, what would that roughly look like directionally?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. So, I think we put in our letter the cash generation was about $70 million. So, SolarCity was actually a cash generator for the five-week sub-period. Some of that was the cash in tax equity deals closing. So, the way to think about SolarCity on a go-forward basis, prioritizing cash generation stroke preservation over the near-term for that business. So, I don't anticipate any significant – it's not going to have a significant impact on our cash position in future quarters.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. And secondly, the $2 billion to $2.5 billion CapEx guide that's spent (40:58), does that imply that that's not a full – a couple of questions, does that imply that's not a full year 2017 number given that production cadence that you're planning?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Correct. That's between now and start of the production for Model 3.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. And second, can you talk a little bit more about the deferral of cash out for CapEx due to agreements with suppliers or some of those equipment suppliers to defer payments? Just what are those agreements? Where does that liability show up on the balance sheet? And then is that a hard as soon as they deliver a proof part? Does that come due or how does the actual timing of that payment work?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, sure, absolutely. So, I think this is one of the benefits of having a very successful run over the last couple of years. We have developed a lot of trust with our suppliers. So, when I started, (41:59), what's our average days payables outstanding? And it was lower than it should be. And we've been able to renegotiate payment terms with just about everybody and stretch out those payables. And it's not a question of (42:12) paying. It's actually we have trust and we're going with renegotiating these contracts with suppliers. And I believe we shared this data point last quarter on the call. But, for the parts that have been sourced for Model 3 so far, the average payment turns is 59 days. So, cash conversion cycle is something that we care deeply about and we're paying a lot of attention to. And obviously as we head up this S curve that we've talked about, working capital is going to be very important. So we're going to have to keep a good eye on that. To sum it up, we're making great progress in stretching out our payables, and we're doing it in a way that I think is productive and healthy with the relationships with our suppliers and vendors.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. So, those deferred capital expenditure payments are actually in the accounts payable or is it in more like an accrued liability line? Just housekeeping.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
It depends on if there's – many payments have milestones set to them. So, when the piece of equipment is actually installed and up and running. And until you hit that milestone, you won't see a payable.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. Thank you.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of James Albertine with Consumer Edge. Your line is now open.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Great. Thank you, and good afternoon. And let me just add my congratulations to Jason and best of luck. And welcome back to Deepak. If I may quickly, Elon, you mentioned in response to a ZEV question earlier, the 14 states, I believe it was, that sort of share these standards and allow manufacturers to sort of earn credits, buy credits, allow you to sell credits and so forth, understanding that to the extent that a competitor vehicle is sold in California, it counts toward their quota, if you will, in other states. And that the waiver that allows that might be expiring later this year, and I'm just wondering, number one, if that's correct, if I'm thinking about that the right way and how that would theoretically impact your business? You've talked about how if sort of these $7,500 federal – and I know I'm mixing ZEV and GHG and so forth, but you talked about how it could theoretically be a competitive advantage for Tesla. And I'm just wondering if you could sort of opine on that
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Well, it's just that in order to scale, it's just that that mandate is so weak. It's like less than 1% or some tiny number of vehicles made in the ZEV states, or sold in the ZEV states. So we're the only ones who currently make a car in California. And I do think California maybe should do a bit more to support its only remaining auto manufacturer for us to be competitive. Yes, it's weird that they seem to do more to support non-California companies than Tesla. But this mandate becomes irrelevant at scale. Tesla will have more ZEV credits than the rest of the U.S. industry combined. So, the value of them just drops to a negligible number. And then they don't – since the mandate is so weak, like, the manufacturers don't really need to sell them either because they make whatever their puny (45:58) amount of electric vehicles are, 20,000 cars maybe. We're making 20 times, 30 times that number. So, these things are just – they're just not important at scale because the mandate is too weak.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Yes, understood. I was just sort of getting at the fact that maybe if the bulk sale in California doesn't count toward New York or something, that it's actually weaker, it's tougher for your competitors than it even is today. So that's more what I was alluding to. And I agree with you that the mandates don't make a lot of sense.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, they're just very weak, so they will have almost no impact on Model 3, like maybe for a few quarters. That's about it.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Okay, great. And if I may on the Model 3 quickly and then I'll get back in queue, the vehicle we've seen, is that a preproduction version, or is that the version you plan to fully produce? And if not, when could we maybe expect to see the fully sort of finished product, just to get an idea of, you alluded to at the Gigafactory a couple of months ago, there's still some suppliers that you want to make sure you're lining up properly to get everything ready to go for July 1. And I'm wondering if the reviewing of the final production-ready version could be between now and then sort of an additional catalyst?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, I'm not sure if it's going to make sense for us to show the final version before start of production or after. The initial cars, sort of Founder Series, actually go to company employees, because I think it's important for us to have a good feedback loop (48:01) on the product that we're making. And if there are any issues, bugs or things that need to be addressed that we can address those before customers experience them. So, I think in terms of showing the final version, it's probably at least a few months away, maybe as far as July itself. It's going to be pretty close to what I showed at the Model 3 unveiling, but with more polish and refinement and a few more details that are added. So it'll be better than (48:44) what was unveiled and I guess in some ways it will be a lot better.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Okay. Great. Well, thank you so much for taking the questions and best of luck.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Thanks.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer. Your line is now open.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Thanks so much. Given the dependency on the Model 3 profitability on the Gigafactory, can you talk about timing for a full ramp on both anode and cathode assembly? And then I have a follow-up question on the debt that you drew down in the fourth quarter.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
I'm sorry. You mean the full ramp to what level? To the 35 gigawatt-hours per year or...
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
No, no. This is a modular facility, right? So you've got machines up and running, so just the first tranche of equipment that you've installed. When is that going to be up and running at full capacity?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
They're very big modules.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, they're pretty large increments. But those will be up and running at the full capacity for the first instances within just a few months. We're already in the stages of – we'll be doing the second instance of anode and cathode electrode assembly. So, these are needed for the ramp of Model 3. So you can get a sense of the timing here.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, I mean, it's two big modules, if you will, I guess, in that sense, right? Something like that.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
So we can think about that being kind of done in the second quarter, done, is what I'm hearing you say. And then...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
The first module and then – if you're not – module is a little confusing term, because we actually have a module, the (50:34) is divided into sales modules and packs.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
First instance of the electrode manufacturing line.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
First line, line one, if you will. It should be in the next few months operating.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, and that first instance would be achieving full volume in Q3.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Okay. Great. And then on the $969 million that you've got in the bucket of debt activities, can you talk about where, just break down where that debt came from and how much borrowing capacity you have entering the year with your current facilities?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, so the debt activity just comes from draws on our asset-backed line and our warehouse lines. We've got a lot of cash in transit, as we move through the quarters, particularly at the end of the quarters or making deliveries. So, we just want to make sure we have maximum liquidity as we close out quarters.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, it's particularly (51:39) essentially that's almost entirely finished product in transit to a customer, and to a known customer. So, it's not general corporate debt. It's just, like we finished the car, and it's got to be transported to a customer overseas, and it may take four weeks to eight weeks to get there.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
That's right. And then that cash has been largely realized (52:07).
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. Yes, exactly.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Okay. And so, how can we think about borrowing capacity at this point on a go-forward basis?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
So, we still had incremental capacity at the end of the quarter. We made some announcements on this. We've increased our warehouse lines, which is a way for us to pull cash forward (52:28) portfolios. And it's gone from zero earlier in the year to $300 million, and then we added another $300 million. So we've got $600 million in capacity there. And our ABL has gone from $750 million at the beginning of the year to $1 billion to $1.2 billion. So, as we continue to build assets, we've got this ability to use them to bring cash forward.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And that's separate from general borrowing capacity.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, it's non-recourse debt.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc.:
Okay. I'll take the rest of it offline. Thanks, guys.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of Tyler Frank with Robert Baird. Your line is now open.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Hi, guys. Thanks for taking the question. Elon, I guess this is for you. Taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture, you previously talked about producing 1 million units per year by 2020, and that 500,000 units in 2018. How confident are you now in both of those targets? And does anything need to be done from the battery perspective side in order to reach those targets? Would you need to build another Gigafactory prior to hitting 1 million units per year in 2020, or do you think that the current Gigafactory will have enough capacity?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, (53:55) you've seen the average pack sizes, but if you say it's somewhere around the 60-kilowatt-hour to 70-kilowatt-hour level, then you need 70 gigawatt-hours to get to 1 million units. And we think that's the sell (54:17) level. And then we think the current Gigafactory should actually be able to do in excess of 100 gigawatt-hours. So, that leaves – probably a big – Gigafactory 1 can manage – can support – it can support probably 1 million vehicles a year, plus maybe something like 30 gigawatt-hours or so of storage, depending upon how fast the storage market grows. But really, I think the storage market's probably going to grow maybe twice the rate of the automotive business. Something like that.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Okay. So, are you still on track, do you believe, for 1 million vehicles in 2020 and 500,000 in 2018? And then, as a quick follow-up to Model 3, you had previously talked about 20% gross margin on that. When do you think that margin target will be able to be achieved?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes. I currently think that we should build to 500,000 vehicles next year and 1 million vehicles by 2020. That's 500,000 vehicles in total, Model S, Model 3, and Model X combined next year should – as far as the information I have at my disposal right now, I believe that is the most likely outcome. And then, with a couple more years, getting to 1 million units. That seems also the most likely outcome. Yes.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Okay. And then just a quick follow-up. Obviously, with Jason leaving, it seems a little bit abrupt, but obviously, Deepak is welcome back. I mean, should we think of this as a permanent situation? Or, how should we be thinking about the CFO position going forward?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, Deepak has come back in a long-term role. So this is not an interim capacity.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Okay. Thank you.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of Rob Cihra with Guggenheim Partners. Your line is now open.
Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC:
Hi. Thank you very much. Just wondering if I could ask a little more about the CapEx. I know you're talking about sort of CapEx up until Model 3, but can you give us any kind of breakout for maybe, even just in percentage terms, looking throughout the year, how much CapEx you're thinking for Model 3 versus Gigafactory and versus Solar?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure. So, we don't break down (57:23) disclose the specifics here, but obviously Gigafactory and Model 3 are going to be the biggest investments. We've also got CapEx investments in equipment and tooling related to Model 3, but then also there's going to be a piece in CapEx on building out our service and our retail infrastructure as well, and the Supercharger network. So it's the usual suspects.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
And solar glass. The solar glass tiles.
Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC:
Yes, so if I could just ask one more. So on that solar glass tile, I mean, does that – you are looking to start production, I guess, whatever, later this year or ramp capacity. I mean, is that a meaningful amount of CapEx for that or, relatively speaking, is it not?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Relatively speaking, it's not.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, it's pretty modest.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
(58:15) insane numbers for Model 3, Gigafactory, they look cute by comparison.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
And we'll be scaling that in the Buffalo Tesla solar factory. So it's helpful that that facility already exists. So we don't have to invest in CapEx for a new factory or something like this. And also, frankly, a lot of the equipment already exists and is already purchased. So it's (58:46) minor.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, it's...
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
But it will ramp and start scaling at the end of this year.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Single digit percentage of the Model 3 CapEx.
Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC:
All right. Great. Thanks. And then, if I could just ask a quick follow-up. I think someone started to ask it earlier, but I don't think it was answered, which was just if you knew when – or well I'm sure you know. If we knew when you were going to start opening customer configurations for Model 3?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Probably going to be pretty close to production. We'll open it internally. So, the first cars will go to Tesla employees and investors and whatnot and so forth, so that we can experience any challenges before our customers do. So we'll obviously do it internally sooner than we would do it externally. So I think it's probably three months or four months away.
Robert Cihra - Guggenheim Securities LLC:
All right. Great. Thank you very much.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Operator:
And our next question -
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Vicki, real quickly. Let me interrupt you here. So we are on the hour mark. We have a couple more questioners in queue. So let's go into the speed round. All right, Vicki, take it away.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question is from the line of Jeff Osborne with Cowen and Company. Your line is now open.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
Hey, good afternoon. I appreciate you squeezing me in. Two quick ones. One, was there a solar securitization in the quarter? And if so, how large was it? And then two, Elon, I believe at the Gigafactory event on January 4, you mentioned that there was some equipment, stamping tools and whatnot that needed to be put in place in Fremont. I was just curious, A, if those showed up, and then, B, if you can just update us on what needs to be done from just a physical capacity to make the vehicle in July?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Quick answer here, no, there's no securitization in Q4. There's one in Q1.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, and we're busy pulling out (60:50) the stamping facility right now. The open question is not whether the (61:00) stamping line will be here. It's going to be here well in advance of the Model 3, but it's like the question is really how long does it take to work out the bugs in the stamping line? And how many iterations does this one have to go through to get it operating smoothly? But it'll all be here and it'll be a hive of activity, and I'll be personally down there looking at the line as I was with the Model S line and I'm confident that I don't think that's going to be an issue. There's some long lead stamping tools, the stamping dyes, and there's a lot of them. And there's some sort of fairly obscure sounding dyes. Like, there's like one dye for the seat frame. It's currently a long lead item. But since we know about it, we're attacking it, and that's unlikely to be a schedule driver. So, things that are likely to be schedule issues are things that we actually just don't know about today. And if we know about, we're attacking vigorously.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
Great. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of Charlie Anderson with Dougherty. Your line is now open.
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Yes, thanks for squeezing me in as well. Just a quick one from me on Gigafactory and the shareholder letter. You talked about Gigafactories, 3, 4 and possibly 5. It sounds like you're pretty covered with Gigafactory 1 in terms of the 1 million vehicles, but I wonder if you could just speak to the strategy and thinking and timing there. And then also Panasonic would be your partner on those as well. Thanks
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
I think we'll reserve powered drive flow (63:00) announcements later this year. This is surely more than enough news for today. But I think those announcements will be really quite exciting later this year.
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Thank you.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
All right, Vicki, let's go to the next question.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of Rod Lache with Deutsche Bank. Your line is now open.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Hi, everybody. Was hoping just to get a few more points to calibrate to expected free cash flow breakeven at the Motors company, and when you – I guess there's a couple of things on this. One is you mentioned that the CapEx of $2 billion to $2.5 billion is until the Model 3 launch. Could you just give us an idea of what you're expecting for the full year? What the rate would be post launch of Model 3?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, right now, I think we said earlier, I think we're just focusing on our first half guidance, rather than the second half of the year. There's going to be lots of exciting things going on in the second half of the year with solar roof and Model 3 getting to scale and everything else, so we're just focused on that at this point in time.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, I mean, there's obviously going to be a fair bit of incremental investment to go from 5,000 cars a week to 10,000 cars a week, but it's going to be a lot less than getting to 5,000 cars a week in the first place. We don't know exactly what that's going to be except I'm confident it'll be less. Because the first thing we'll try to increase output is going back to rocket equation is to increase exit velocity of the line. And we don't know exactly where the trouble points (64:53) are going to be. We tried to model it out as carefully as possible, but there'll be things that aren't captured in the model. But I think in a lot of cases, we'll simply be able to run the lines faster as opposed to duplicate the line. That's by far the best CapEx maneuver is just to make it go faster. But I would say it's going from 5,000 to 10,000 is probably – this is a total wild-ass guess, so (65:35) right way to think about, but it's like somewhere between 50% to 70% of the cost of the 5,000 line. Something like that. If you're lucky and smart, 50% is only half the game, which obviously is pretty awesome from a CapEx standpoint. I can't imagine it being more than about 70% as much as there is. So, JB, what do you think?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, I think that's right. And it's maybe helpful to realize, but a lot of the infrastructure investments to get all the way to 10,000 are already completed, Gigafactory in particular.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
That's true.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
So, it's not even as if we're starting from scratch to go from 5,000 to 10,000.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
That's true. I mean, some things are worth, like, well, you can spend 10% more like in a really good case. You can spend 10% more and have twice as much capacity, and you're like, okay, sure. It's not great in the short-term, but it's obvious good thing in the long-term.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla, Inc.:
(66:34) great efficiencies in the way to layout of facility, for instance, as there were at Gigafactory. So, we don't anticipate needing to build much new square footage, for instance, to go all the way to 10,000, even though we would be expanding the internal production lines while we speed them up and add new instances of production, but the Tesla CapEx would not be a one-to-one scaling, not even close.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Could you comment on the run rate of OpEx for 2017, for the Motors company or for the whole company?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Sure, I think the way to think about it is we're going to continue to drive efficiencies in G&A. We have to do that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
In part, because we can't send people in the (67:19).
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It seems like a silly concern, but like it's really quite difficult.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
We have a real volumetric problem. It's a good constraint to have.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
So, parking is like one of my biggest nightmares. Like, where do we park everyone? It's like you can't fit everyone. So we have to make our OpEx better because there's nowhere for people to go.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla, Inc.:
So, we're at that stage now where G&A will continue to scale sub-linearly with revenue, and we'll continue to always push productivity. Productivity, productivity, productivity. And then we'll obviously need to continue to make investments on the sales side, and even in my new ventures, I'll be calling Jon and harassing him about his numbers.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Yes, we should point out like from a demand generation standpoint, like we don't need to make actually any investment for Model 3 probably for the next 12 months. So, it's the delivery of the cars where the investment is needed. If you deliver three times or four times as many cars, well, we don't want to have three times or four times as many delivery centers, so how do we make that delivery process more streamlined, less paperwork, less bureaucracy, get people ahead of time, really well produced instruction videos for how to use their car, although of course the best instruction, the best thing is not having instructions. And you'll actually be able to like play all of the instructions for your car on your car. So, if you don't want to have any of it, you can just look at that. You can look at your email or (69:07) the car. But there's – sales is actually demand generation and then delivery of the car, if that's also part of sales. That's the scaling part. And then service. Our (69:25), like we increased the design lifetime of the powertrain from roughly 0.25 million miles to aspirationally 1 million miles. So, that should really help with service.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
I guess, just still trying to calibrate to this cash flow and cash needs, maybe a different way to ask this, is it reasonable to expect that you would hit for the Motors company free cash flow breakeven at the 250,000-unit a year level for Model 3, assuming what we know today?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
It depends on how quickly we want to ramp production to go from 5,000 a week to 10,000 a week for Model 3. There could be an argument that you don't want to go to cash flow breakeven or positive because you're losing a lot of sales and when you calculate the present value, huge (70:41) cash flows, then it's like actually not smart to be in that case free cash flow positive. Or maybe you want to be a little negative at least and not give up a huge number of sales, because we would be talking – the numbers get just so crazy, it's 0.25 million units a year, roughly $1 billion a month revenue. And so then you double that and it's $2 billion a month. So, maybe spending an incremental $0.5 billion on CapEx would be pretty smart move if it advances things by two months or three months.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Yes, so it just seems like at that level of 250,000, you'd be generating probably at least $2 billion of gross profit from Model 3, and if you continue this Model X rate, you're at $2.5 billion of gross from that, so even with OpEx of just under 3 (71:50) and CapEx of just under 3 (71:51), if you add in D&A, it looks like it's pretty close, but I understand. It sounds like it's within your control.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Right. It's within our control. I mean, look, if we were to just level off, we could be cash flow positive right now.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Right, yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
Obviously we're in the sort of low 20%s to mid-20%s on gross margin in the car at a $10 billion a year run rate. That's $2 billion to $2.5 billion. So, we could definitely be profitable and cash flow positive at that level. But then our growth rate would be way slower. So, it's kind of just really like a series of overlapping parallel MPV streams is the like obvious way to look at it, I think. And by the way, guys, it'd be great to get some feedback if you think we're not making a smart move, please tell us. Like, we'd love to hear a feedback. We're definitely not going to hit the bull's-eye every time. We're going to make mistakes. And hearing feedback from you would be great.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Great. Well, thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla, Inc.:
All right, thanks.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Thanks, Rod.
Operator:
And I'm showing no further questions at this time. I would now like to turn the call back over to Mr. Jeff Evanson.
Jeffrey K. Evanson - Tesla, Inc.:
Okay, thank you, Vicki. Thank you, everyone, for joining today. Have a lovely evening.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in today's conference. This does conclude the program. You may all disconnect. Everyone, have a great day.
Executives:
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc. Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc. Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc. Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.
Analysts:
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc. Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co. Inc. Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker) Jamie Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co. Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC Daniel Sparks - The Motley Fool Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal Phil LeBeau - CNBC, Inc.
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla Motors, Incorporated Third Quarter 2016 Financial Results Q&A Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session, and instructions will follow at that time. [Operation Instructions] I would now like to introduce your host for today's conference, Mr. Jeff Evanson. Sir, you may begin.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Thank you, Chanel, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's third quarter 2016 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk; JB Straubel; Jason Wheeler, and Jon McNeill. Our Q3 results are announced in the update letter at the same link as this webcast, and during our call today we will make – we'll discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. We will start today's call with some brief comments by Elon and Jason followed by your questions and answers, and during the Q&A, please try to limit yourselves to one question and one follow-up. And so, if you want to log-in to the Q&A queue, please do so now by pressing star one. And, Elon, I'll pass it over to you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Thank you. My comments will be brief because I think it's really – what I would have to say is captured in the earnings letter, but obviously the main thing is that we were able to have our best quarter ever, achieved full GAAP profitability and, moreover, I think we are headed to have a great fourth quarter as well. One of the concerns I've seen out there is that perhaps Q3 was delayed (2:07) at the expense of Q4. This is not true, and we currently believe that Q4 will be profitable, excluding non-cash stock-based expenses. I think there's actually a chance that we will be profitable even including non-cash stock-based expenses. There's just a chance. I would – it's not a promise but I think we've got a shot at actually being profitable even taking stock-based expenses into account. So it's very exciting, and I think we're very proud of the Tesla team for executing so well on Q3 and going into Q4 and beyond. So, yeah. It's been great. Definitely one of the best moments ever in Tesla I think. Jason?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Cool. Thanks, Elon. Just a couple of points I wanted to hit on real quickly before we jump into Q&A. One is I just want to point out the prudent financial managements that we've been able to accomplish over the last several quarters. An example here is back in 2015, we were spending $400 million a quarter on CapEx. We've averaged about $250 million a quarter in 2016. That will change as Model 3 starts to ramp-up in Q4, but we are focusing on making sure that every dollar we spend is in its highest and best use. From a gross margin perspective, if you look at automotive gross margin and you exclude ZEV credit revenue, we had 140 basis point improvement quarter-over-quarter. Lots of different factors there. One, obviously, the increase in volume helps on the labor and overhead front. Secondly, our reliability continues to get better and better. A big change in Model X over the last 12 months, as we highlighted in the letter, and continued improvements in batteries and drive units across both vehicles. Another source of gross margin improvement is supplier sourcing and the wind-down of our commitments on prototype parts for Model X. Third point on financial management. You can see our OpEx is growing sub-linear to revenue. The operating leverage that we've been talking about through the course of the year is starting to kick in. To put some real numbers around that, GAAP revenue was up 81% quarter-over-quarter, 145% year-over-year and yet GAAP OpEx was only up 7% quarter-over-quarter and 33% year-over-year. Second thing I want to talk for just a couple minutes about is what we've done to the capital structure and our sources of liquidity. As you may have read in the letter, we paid down $600 million in debt within the quarter. Most notably, $422 million of conversions on our 2018 converts de-risking the balance sheet in the future. In addition to that, we're able to sign a $300 million warehouse line, which gives us more leasing capacity at great terms. The terms on that vehicle are less than 2%. Also, we managed to get an 80% increase with our largest North America leasing partner in the quarter. And we're also on task to sign-up a new leasing partner in Q4. So, generally, I'd just like to point out that our access to capital markets and our sources of liquidity is as strong as it's ever been.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. In fact, just to highlight one element (5:34) of what Jason's saying, our vehicle gross margin increased Q2 to Q3. One of the other things I've seen out there is that, like, somehow we achieved these numbers as a result of widespread discounting, that is absolutely false. There were a few discounts that – but they were few and far between and that has been absolutely shot down to zero. So you can see that in the fact that the vehicle profitability increased, even excluding ZEV credits from Q2 to Q3.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Chanel, I think we're ready for the first question.
Operator:
And our first question comes from the line of Colin Langan of UBS. Your line is now open.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Oh, great. Thanks for taking my question. I mean it looks like a very strong free cash flow quarter. But when I look through the balance sheet, there seems to be a pretty large increase in accounts payables and accrued liabilities that seems to have helped. How should we think about that going into Q4? Does some of that unwind? Were there any changes to buyer terms in the quarter, or is that just with the ramp in production?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Sure. Yeah. Great question. It's Jason. So, yeah, there was definitely an increase in payables and I think that'll start to unwind a little bit in Q4. A lot of that is natural, I feel like the production, I believe, it increased 37% quarter-over-quarter, so there's naturally going to be more parts coming into the factory. So I think some of that is just in the course of business. And the other thing that I think is worth pointing out on the cash flow statement is receivables. We had a lot of deliveries right at the end of the quarter, so we weren't able to collect all of our receivables. We ended up with a fairly large receivable balance on cars that were delivered in that last 10 days or so.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. Definitely also – yeah, with emphasizing that, I mean it's a first approximation you expect payables to increase by 37% if you – production reserve (7:46). And then you have to net out against receivables. And when you do that, I think it's not really a – it's not a material situation.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
No.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Got it.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
And we are actively looking to increase terms with suppliers. And I think as our production has been more predictable, suppliers have been much more open to that conversation.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. In fact – yeah, in fact – thanks for making that point, Jason. I think it's worth emphasizing that for Model 3. The Model 3 system is designed – the whole manufacturing supply chain system is designed so that the faster Model 3 production grows the faster Tesla's cash balance grows. So the terms that we're getting from suppliers are significantly better, almost 60 days as compared to about 40 days to 45 days for S and X. And Model 3 production and logistics is way faster, so the car spends much of its time in the factory, and we're working on ways to expedite delivery of the vehicles to the end customer, which we can do when we have scale. We don't have to just wait for a ship to go somewhere. We can fill up the whole ship and just have the ship go anywhere we want. So the net effect is that instead of growth being a capital consumer, growth is a capital producer.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Got it. And so, the other question I had is you're guiding to profit in Q4 without ZEV credit, actually it sounds like without even the stock comp possibly, yet production is about flat. Model X is going to get a little worse, OpEx guidance sort of implies that's up sequentially. So what are the key drivers that are actually going to get you to profitability? But I think if you take out the ZEV credit, it would have probably been still a loss in this quarter.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, we expect gross margin to increase. And, I mean, that's a huge factor. (10:13) We're using very few prototype parts or low volume selling parts, and we're not paying for crazy amounts of expediting. And there are a bunch of design improvements, design cost downs that , I would say, (10:32), actually – that are either value neutral to the customer – it's actually cost slightly better. And we have the P100. So the – one of the things that – the 100 kilowatt hour car – pack was only in limited production towards the end of last quarter, and it will be a pretty significant portion of the mix this quarter. So, yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think one additional thing is that the reliability of the cars continues to get better, so our warranty costs sort of decreasing as well. And that's a really – that's a key driver for us, not only from the cost side but from the demand side where we're creating demand in market given the reliability of the vehicles.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. I mean, the reliability improvement is massive.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
It is. So the visits to service for Model X through the course of the year declined 92%, which is just a fantastic result both from the manufacturing side. And the vehicle reliability teams have been working hard to achieve that. And we're going to continue to improve against that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Are we good, Colin?
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Should I go ahead and take one... (11:44)
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Chanel, let's go to the next question, please?
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Brian Johnson with Barclays. Your line is now open.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes. Good afternoon. I just want to go in a little bit on regulatory credits. A couple of things. First, clearly, with your delivery numbers, the California and the other CARB states are buying more Teslas, yet last quarter you talked about the value of those plummeting and we shouldn't really expect much, so kind of – obviously you're generating more. But a couple of questions. What's happened in the marketplace for those credits? And I know even under GAAP you don't list that as a balance sheet asset, but if we were to think about the quarterly generation of credits as well as the credits on your – in effect in, your car bank that can be monetized in the future, how would we think about those?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, unfortunately, as I've said on record before, the CARB ZEV credit mandate is incredibly weak and needs to be fixed. And when you have a weak mandate, obviously the value of those credits decline conservatively. There were some quarters where we simply cannot even find a buyer for credit. And then when we can find a buyer, it's typically $0.50 on the $1 for the ZEV credit. So – and then – obviously the ZEV credit is only applied to about roughly half of our market in the U.S., maybe slightly above half. It doesn't apply to Asia, or Europe, or Canada or Mexico or anywhere else. So it's there, and I think CARB really should be doing more. It's unfortunate that they're not. And then – I need to maybe write a longer blog piece sort of going through this, but Tesla's sometimes criticized for relying on kind of tax credits and that kind of thing. People really misunderstand this. What matters is, what does Tesla receive relative to its competitors? Not, what does Tesla receive in the absolute? Our competitors – it may be worth noting – maybe you would consider this to be a risk or something that is problematic for us. Our competitors monetize ZEV credits at 100 cents on the $1. We monetize them at $0.50 on the $1 where we can get it. That means if you have, let's say – it depends on the scenario, but if you have, let's say, 3 ZEV credits for an EV, then it would be essentially be worth $5,000 each. So that would be $15,000. So when, say, Jim or somebody sells an EV, they get $15,000, but when Tesla sells an EV, we get half of that.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Right. They have an internal market.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
It is not we who are being subsidized but our competitors.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
So now...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Now the interesting thing is that there is a limit to our disadvantage. Because of them, credit thing is so weak, it only goes so far. It only applies to certain states. So what you will see our competitors do is they will limit their production, and they will only sell in ZEV states or almost entirely in ZEV states. That doesn't scale. That will take them to maybe 40,000 units or 50,000 units a year, best case, but we're talking about doing 500,000 units a year.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
And...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Which means at high volume, we no longer suffer, be disadvantaged of the credit regime. This is wholly misunderstood.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Does that help, Brian?
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yeah. And just a quick follow-up on the GHG (16:10) credits. Were there any?
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Say again, Brian?
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Just to follow-up, were there GHG or other CAP A (16:18) credits? And how do they compare to prior quarters?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Those are mouse nuts.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. Thanks.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line from Colin Rusch of Oppenheimer.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.:
Thanks so much. Can we just look at the shipment numbers? So a quarter ago you were guiding to roughly 80,000 vehicles a year, and now three months later we're down at 75,000 vehicles. Can you just walk us through the factors that are impacting that lower shipment number – or delivery number, I should say?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well I think this was really gone over in last quarter's call is that we had other problems getting to rates in the first half of the year, rate being an average of roughly 2,000 cars a week. Just a lot of things broken in our production system. I personally probably took a year off my life or more camping out at Fremont (17:27) factory solving that along with a number of other members of the Tesla team. We went through bloody hell in the first half of this year. We got out of that basically around mid-June, and then the result is achieving a weekly production target of roughly 2,000 cars a week.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.:
Okay. Maybe I can take that offline. So then the second question for me is really about absorption. With nearly 40% increase in deliveries, can you guys breakout the impact on gross margin to absorption? It would seem that that would be a meaningful number at this point.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
What are you talking about?
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.:
Factory absorption.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Do you mean like fixed costs versus...
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.:
Yeah. Fixed costs on the factory, and how that flows through the depreciation line.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Sure. I mean the way to think about that is – I think Elon actually just covered it in his last answer. We had capacitized the factory and had the factory obviously produce much more – many more cars in the first half of the year and we fell short of that. And now we're at the rate that we had planned to be at early in the year, so our absorption is about what we'd expect it to be. And I think what you're seeing now from an absorption perspective as it's related to gross margin is a good steady-state rate.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.:
Okay. I was just looking for a quarter-over-quarter number in terms of the contribution margin.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
No, we typically don't break down all the different factors within gross margin.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.:
Okay. Thanks a lot, guys.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Sure. No problem.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Ryan Brinkman of JPMorgan. Your line is now open.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Great. Thanks for taking my question. Can you talk about the drivers of the substantially less-than-expended capital expenditures in the quarter and the reduction to the full year CapEx guide? Should we think about this as being more about the push-out or delay of certain activities that give rise to CapEx? Or is it more that you're on schedule with those activities but doing them in a thriftier way or some sort of combination of these factors?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
One thing that we found (19:42) is way better with 3 program than X and S is that our equipment suppliers are willing to work with us on payment terms and repayable to back-end load and, in fact, post-production mode, a huge amount of the CapEx. So that just turned out a lot better than we expected. But we've not taken any action that would cause the Model 3 timeline to be extended in any way.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
We're still highly confident of reaching volume production in the second half of next year.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. If I might chime into that a tiny bit as well, we are also continuing to improve the capital efficiency per unit of the production lines. And especially over the last few months, we've put a huge amount of engineering intention into really focusing on that problem and we're seeing results, and I think we'll continue to see incremental improvements all the way from the things like the battery cells all the way up to the vehicle itself.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay. And then the follow-up to that is just in regards to the amended S-4 that you filed a couple weeks back. There was some changed language in there from, Tesla is currently planning to raise additional funds by the end of the year to now stating that you expect adequate liquidity through the – at least the end of the year, I think it says. So what was the primary change, would you say? Does it relate to this CapEx issue that we're talking about here or to higher earnings or to another factor?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. I think it covers all the above. So we've gotten really good at capital efficiency. JB, who was just speaking, has done a great job of that up at the Gigafac in particular. And we're – I think we're just executing very well. We met our internal targets for Q3, so – and you see what happened on the cash flow statement. So I think it's operational execution as well as capital efficiency.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Great. Thanks a lot.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
One thing that's worth mentioning and, certainly, I would take this with a grain of salt and not like it's – like sometimes, I'll say things which I think are sort of speculation or my best guess but they are not – it's different from a promise. Our current plan – our current financial plan does not require any capital raise for Model 3 at all. So now that's different from saying whether we should raise capital or not to account for uncertainty to have a larger buffer and to sort of de-risk the business. So – and then we also feel pretty good having examined the SolarCity financials that looks like SolarCity will actually be, I believe, neutral but perhaps a cash contributor in the fourth quarter in a small way. But again, does not – do not take this to the bank, this is not a promise. This is like – this is what appears to be the case. So contingent upon shareholder approval, we expect SolarCity to be somewhere between neutral and a cash contributor in the fourth quarter. And yeah, I mean things are looking good. Yeah. It's not to say that there's some darkness ahead, they look really quite good right now. It seems like we probably weren't wanted to capital raise even in Q1. I'm not saying we won't, but probably not. And yeah – so we're looking quite promising.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. The other thing I would just add on top of that is, is just go back to some of the comments I made at the beginning of the call about our others receivable liquidity, and the capital markets are open to us. And as our asset base gross, our ability to monetize those assets increases. We've got our ABL line. We've got the $300 million warehouse line. And so we've got the things, and we've also been able to lineup a bunch of incremental capacity on the leasing side in the quarter as well. So that's definitely a piece of it.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay, very helpful. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Emmanuel Rosner of CLSA. Your line is now open.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
Good afternoon. I have a couple of questions on your recent announcement around autonomous driving. So I guess the first one is on hardware and then the second one on software. On hardware, it seems like – at least from the outside where we're sitting, it seems like just recently you were indicating you will be de-emphasizing the vision approach to ADAS and autonomous driving. And now it seems the latest hardware seems largely based on vision. So I was curious, how – what was the thought process there? And still within hardware, how do you acquire confidence that the hardware you're putting in cars today would still be adequate to take you all the way through full autonomy when it's only based – or largely based on vision?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. First of all, I would separate what Tesla says from, say, some supplier of ours is issuing, bullshit. Okay? The blog that I wrote was very clear that radar is moving from a supplemental to also a primary sensor. It is not to the exclusion of vision, but it is also a primary sensor. Vision is still the main thing, but radar, instead of merely being, like, a cross-check against vision is really, when done well, and we're very confident at this point that it can be done this way; it can be a primary sensor such that you can take actions based on radar information alone. You can also take actions just based on vision alone. Much as a person who might take action based on whether you hear something or you see something, but you don't need to both hear it and see it. Yeah, so, there's no – we feel highly confident that the 8-camera solution with 12 ultrasonics and a Ford radar, and the computing power that we now have onboard is capable of full autonomy at a – it's simply greater than human (26:44). There are obviously skeptics out there. Well, I suggest that they do not bet against us.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
Okay. And then on the software side, I guess a lot of the players involved in developing autonomous solutions seem to think that a big input for autonomous driving, especially higher levels of autonomy sort of a map, a live updated map. What are – there was not a lot of new information on the most recent announcement on this. What are Tesla's plans for this part of the solution?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think we're getting into like technical questions that are not really related to this quarter. So we'll have to pass.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
All right.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Stay tuned for product announcements as they come out.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
Got it.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Okay. Thanks, Emmanuel.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of John Murphy of Bank of America Merrill Lynch. Your line is now open.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Good afternoon, guys. Just a somewhat of a redundant and follow-up question here, but I really just want to make sure I get this right. I mean, as you're looking at R&D and CapEx, I mean, those are two items that, as we're looking in, a very significant product launch next year are kind of running at very, very low levels. I'm just curious, as you're talking about this, do you think that – well, I mean, no, they're not that low, but I mean relative to what we would expect ahead of a product launch, do you think that R&D at absolute levels can stay here and support the Model 3 launch and everything else you're working on or that need to go up? And then also similarly, I mean, this CapEx number of $1 billion-plus in the fourth quarter really is a significant step-up. I mean, is that really just too high a number, and you guys really are running significantly lower than this $2.5 billion, lower than the $1.8 billion, maybe something significantly lower? And really finding a massive amount of efficiency here? And I'm just really trying to understand what these levels are going to be because they are very impressive to-date.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. Sure. I can take the R&D piece. I imagine that R&D will continue to go up.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Not in giant ways.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Not in giant ways, yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. Moderate increases in R&D are to be expected, but not some, like, sort of not a step change.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. Exactly. And on the SG&A side, that's where we're really finding a lot of our operating leverage. On the capital front, again I think there's just continued opportunities for us to optimize this. There's a whole new paradigm of thinking that we're going through, and it's breaking through conventional norms such as to add a step change in capacity you have to add a step change in capital, that's not true. You can always optimize things. You can make things move (29:48) faster. It can be more efficient. You can use floor space better. So I think it's some of this thinking, which Elon has talked a lot about, is really getting baked into our capital plan.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. And maybe it seems low relative to the traditional industry, but I guess if we're comparing to what we've done in our past – and even if we just look at the...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. It seems like a lot of money to us.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
...S program was actually quite a lot lower R&D and lower CapEx than this. So it feels like a huge amount of money.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
But, I mean, you guys really are running at a run-rate that is half of what you – or less than half of what you were originally talking about for the year on a run-rate basis, and I'm just trying to understand if that's something that is more realistic? Or we should expect a real big step-up in the fourth quarter?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
If you go back to actually our guidance at the beginning of the year on the OpEx side, I believe our initial guidance was 25% year-over-year, and we bumped that up to 30% year-over-year. So there's...
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
I'm sorry. I meant on CapEx.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
On CapEx, our original guidance at the beginning of the year was $1.5 billion, and then when we made the initial announcement to bring forward production of 500,000 vehicles into 2018, then we bumped it up. And I think now we're just getting smarter about that, and that's why we brought that guidance back down in the letter this quarter.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. We're probably just too conservative on our capital projections, but it's turned out to be that we can do this with less capital than anticipated.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Got it. And just one follow-up on mix. I mean, these 100-kilowatt hour models – I mean, it sounds like, in some ways, you may have underestimated the high-end of the market, which is a good thing. I mean, as we think about that as a percent of mix going forward, I mean, do you really think there's a tremendous opportunity for that to be a material part of the mix?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yes. It's one of my – I mean, right now, there are like three things that are top priorities for me. Obviously, Model 3 achieving rate, schedule and costs on Model 3 as top. Then it's advancing the Autopilot to self-driving software, and then it's the 100-kilowatt hour, trying to ramp-up the 100-kilowatt hour production rates. I receive daily updates on the 100-hour kilowatt hour production. After this call, I am going to be on the 100-kilowatt hour production line because the demand is high, and we just need to satisfy that demand.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay. It just seems like that almost might be more important as far as profitability and cash flow in the near-term than the Model 3. It's just because...
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, definitely in the near-term. I mean, that's 100% certain.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
But even over time. But okay. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, yeah. It's a super big deal. Seven days a week I get an update on the 100-kilowatt hour progress, on the production ramp of that.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Ben Kallo of Baird. Your line is now open.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Hey, Elon. If I can ask a question about SolarCity. One of the things that I cover SolarCity and you guys bought Silevo, my initial reaction was to be negative on it. And one of the things that I'm worried about with the transaction that you guys acquired or merging is the Buffalo deal. It's just being a cash cow. And so I was relieved when I saw Panasonic step in. So can you talk know more about that? And then maybe in the same question, how – I saw this, the slide deck yesterday about how their business model is changing from lease to more cash sales or loan sales. What do you expect going forward, and maybe that's Jason, from a cash flow basis? I know you said Q4 relates to that, but can this be cash accretive to the business next year? Thanks. And then I have one follow-up.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think – I expect SolarCity to be approximately cash neutral, all things considered, next year. Yeah, it does depend on how fast we ramp-up production in Buffalo. And by the way, I think first thing (34:37) in your question you said cash cow? I think you maybe meant to say cash vacuum. But we do – in your question, that's all what I'm saying it is. We do think it's important to have tight control over the production of the solar panels in order to really – in order to have a beautiful solar roof product, we've got to be able to iterate rapidly and have them made exactly the way we want them so that you have very high efficiency cells at the lowest cost. That's our objective. Just as we've been able to achieve that in partnership with Panasonic on the battery front. We have the best cell at the lowest price. That's a really good place to be. And we're confident we can achieve that same outcome in solar. And while also creating a solar roof product that is better than a normal roof, looks better than a normal roof. Now, the market (36:01), as I mentioned before, that there's like, if somebody has just installed a roof and their house is new, it's not going to make sense for them to go re-roof the house. It does make more sense to have something that's solar panels are added to the roof. But for someone that is building a house or where the roof is nearing its expiry date, then the solar roof is the right option. So the nice thing is you don't really cannibalize one from the other. They're two separate markets. And I think you'll be (36:39) quite pleasantly surprised by what we debut on Friday. It has exceeded my expectations. And – yeah, but I don't want to jump the gun on that. You should really see what we unveil on Friday. I think it's really great.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
And then one more maybe big picture, I'll probably get made fun of this for asking, but, stakeholders, I watch what the work you're doing at SpaceX and the statement you said about the reason you want to make money is for your work on inter-planetary transport. How do you judge a Tesla shareholder versus a Tesla car holder? How do you delineate between where you give value versus the different stakeholders in the whole group there?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I don't really think about it like that. It's really just we want to make products that people love. And then make enough money from that to be able to develop new product. And that's it really. There's like so few products, like, how many products can you buy that you really love? So, rare. And I think if you do something like that, people will buy them. They will pay a premium for something that they love, of course. Yeah. And then I think it ends up being a good outcome for shareholders because the whole purpose of any company existing is to make compelling products and services. Some of those people lose sight of why companies should even exist.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Like, for example, would you scale back the growth of SolarCity, even though it's the greater good for the environment to be more cash flow positive, I guess is a good way to look at it?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I don't think – you know, we have to look at this in long-term. And if SolarCity's moving lots of money, then that's not good for the long-term that investors will not support such a situation. So – and I think there may be some intermediate slowdowns, but this is actually with an eye towards ultimately moving way faster.
Benjamin Joseph Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Got it, got it. Thank you, Elon.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of James Albertine of Consumer Edge. Your line is now open.
Jamie Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Great. Thank you and good afternoon. Wanted to ask a question, if I may, on battery costs and particularly just kind of an update on the Gigafactory and the impact of the Gigafactory on battery cost. It seems as we're getting closer to the opening that while there is some improvement sort of going on in the background in terms of efficiencies of the battery cell production process and also the trade secrets that you're working on between generation-to-generation of cell production that at least 30% benefit from the Gigafactory. How should that filter into the model, let's say, over the course of the next, kind of, six months to eight months between now and maybe when you start to talk more about Model 3 production? Thanks.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, I'm not sure we want to give a detailed glide slope on this, but we're still very confident on the progress against the milestones we talked about previously. We're still confident that we'll have the very – the best cell cost in the world when we start production. And I think those are really the most important metrics. In long-term, we see ongoing opportunities to keep driving that down as we add innovation into the manufacturing process and keep increasing scale.
Jamie Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
And just to confirm when you're still expecting to sort of begin production on the Gigafactory, itself. And then just a quick product question as it relates to what you've done with the Model S and the 100-killowatt battery pack. Thinking about a fully loaded, optimized Model 3 which obviously is smaller vehicle. Is there potential to see range – again, this is not a price-sensitive question, but at the high-end of the Model 3 side, is there potential to see range extend significantly further than what we're seeing with the S and X? Thanks.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, maybe to your first question, I mean we're still generally on track, as we stated, with the Gigafactory schedule and production. There's equipment being installed and being commissioned as we speak. There's a fairly extensive process of bringing that equipment online, starting up pilot production, validating the pilot production. So I mean that's exactly what we're in the middle of and continuing to ramp-up through the end of this year. So we feel good about where that's at, and we feel that we're definitely on schedule for production for Model 3.
Jamie Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Great. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Adam Jonas of Morgan Stanley. Your line is now open.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Hi. Just one question about the Autopilot software development. As you guys are putting the hardware and the software and learning capabilities in the entire fleet of incremental production, you're going to have lots and lots of very rich data that is going to be brought to you for analysis and processing and learning. And I guess the question is when, Elon, would you say would be the earliest reasonable opportunity for you and perhaps backed by the scientific community and your own community in your company, to make a strong case to the regulators with the empirical data as you get and analyze it as a safety of the vehicles, even if not in a fully autonomous application but even the semi-autonomous so that you can bring more visibility and transparency to the urgent need to address the spiraling death and injury on our roads? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. Well, I should say that we do actually, very closely on a daily basis, and have for a long time, with NHTSA and other regulatory entities around the world really at a very detailed level. So they're certainly aware of, kind of, the nitty-gritty, and as I've said before, we already see a significant improvement in safety with semi-autonomous features. And what's sort of less visible to the outside are all the cases where the version one of Autopilot actually did a lot to mitigate the accident so that the impact velocity went from being potentially fatal or severe injury to customer stepped out and walked away. There are many of those which provides a much more statistically significant sample set than the fatalities, because the fatalities are extremely rare, and you need really 1 billion miles or more to try to achieve a statistically significant conclusion on fatalities. But as our fleet grows, and it's growing rapidly, the number of semi-autonomous miles grows to the point where I think we're now starting to approach almost 1.5 million miles per day of Autopilot – all kinds of road conditions and weather throughout the world. And then the more time that goes by, the more miles we accumulate, the stronger the argument gets about the confidence interval tighten and it becomes clearer and clearer. So I'm really quite optimistic about where things are and where they're headed on that front. I think they're headed to a good place.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Okay. Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Jeff Osborne of Cowen & Co. Your line is now open.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
Yeah. Good afternoon. Just two questions on my end. One, how do we think about the cadence of CapEx in 2017? Should it persist at a continued rate in the first half of 2017 up until the Model 3 launch at a similar run-rate as you're seeing here in Q4? Or what's the thought process there?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
You will see it ramp-up in Q1 and Q2 as you'd expect as we get closer to production, and then a lot of the payments come after start of productions in Q3, Q4. And there will be obviously expenditures on new vehicle development, so you can expect it to ramp-up a fair bit over time. But I stand by what I said earlier which is, currently, if we did not go out and raised a bunch of money – our current plan says we don't need to raise any money. It gets a little scary in terms of how much capital we have in the bank relative to our sales volume, but at least currently raised capital is something that's nice to have, not a necessity. And maybe it's a smart move to de-risk things and all that. So just looking at the bigger picture, take into account also that we're designing the 3 program to be a cash generator – that the faster the 3 grows, the stronger our cash position. I don't think you need to worry too much about CapEx being, like, a dilutive event or something like that.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. And just so it's clear what Elon's talking about is a step-up from our Q3 levels, not a step-up from Q4.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
Do you care to throw a number out there for CapEx for 2017 at this point? Or do you think of it kind of flattish but front-end loaded on 2017 versus 2016? Too early for that?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
It's higher in 2017 than 2016 for sure.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
And then around CapEx as well, any thoughts on kind of partner commitments to Gigafactory? What's the trend there? And then also I might have missed it, but what's the reservation count for Model 3? I missed that in the release if it was there?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
We see very strong supplier commitments on Model 3. Yeah. We don't see any dips in supplier commitments there. They're very strong. This is the most interesting vehicle program, maybe the most interesting product program in the world, and so suppliers really want to be a part of something like this. As for the 3 deposit number, this is not something we comment on and not something that is a figure of merit in any way. We do no promotion of Model 3, we don't advertise – we don't advertise in general – but we don't – like, how often do you see me mentioning a Model 3? I think people sometimes forget, like, that all we did for the Model 3 was half our webcast. There's no advertising, no guerrilla marketing campaign. We sent out a few tweets, like, hey, there's going to be a webcast. And there's like a lot of people decided they wanted to place a deposit for the car, which is cool. But we didn't want to get people too distracted from today's product in favor of tomorrow's product. And then when somebody comes into our store to buy a Model 3, we say, well, why don't you buy Model S or an X instead? So we anti-sell the 3. Still a lot of people order to the 3, but whatever. Plus the 3, like, we basically sold out the first year of production, so the first 12 months production or thereabouts. So what's the point of trying to sell the 13th month of production? Very little gain to be had there in doing so.
Jeffrey Osborne - Cowen & Co. LLC:
Perfect. Thanks much for all the details. I appreciate it, guys.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of David Tamberrino of Goldman Sachs. Your line is now open.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Hi, thank you. Just want to circle back on a couple of things said earlier. First, on the Autopilot, you mentioned that you worked very closely with NHTSA. I'm wondering what your take is on the push from the recent document, the Federal Autonomous Vehicle Policy (sic) [Federal Automated Vehicle Policy], that really is looking for data sharing among OEMs? I think you're probably clearly in the lead with vehicles on the road and miles per day of data that you're aggregating. I'm wondering what your take is on potentially opening that up and sharing with some of your competitors?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I mean, we'd be happy to share information with our competitors that would help improve safety. We'd be happy to do so.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Interesting. And then the second one is really just on the cost side. Do you think about a traditional OEM and their supply relationships, there's typically annual price-downs ranging in the 1% to 3% range, sometimes more for commoditized products. And you're very vertically integrated. I wonder how you think about internal price-downs and gaining economies for scale on the Model 3 and what you're really looking to achieve from an operational efficiency standpoint on an annual basis with parts that you have going into your vehicles.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Model 3 efficiency as a whole, that really is a quantum change in productivity, like really, really, crazy. I mentioned this before, but as we go to high volumes, what really matters is the factory, the machine that designs the machine – the machine that creates the machine is – becomes actually of greater significance, much greater significance than the machine itself. That's where we have most of our engineering team working on. So sort of an internal codename for the factory machine that builds machine is the alien dreadnought so a point in which our factory looks like an alien dreadnought and we know it's probably right. So we think with Model 3, it will be alien dreadnought version 0.5 approximately, and then it will take us about another year or so, I don't know, summer 2018 to actually get to alien dreadnought version 1.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
And I'm a little bit hazy on quantifying crazy. Is there any rule of thumb that you can point to with what you're looking to achieve at least in terms of bringing the cost down from a component level from the S to the 3, you know, not even thinking about the X, given the increasing complexity that was involved with the vehicle?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, in terms for (54:17) approximation, they seem to be about half.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
That's not something like everything is half. Some things are way less than half the cost, and some things are more than half the cost, but on average, about half.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
And predominantly, internally sourced?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Well, it depends on how you consider the value chain but, yeah, I guess arguably it's – the majority internally sourced but there's still a huge number of suppliers. The thing that happens when you – once you start making, almost all major sub-systems internally, your supplier count actually grows dramatically. You have far more suppliers, not far fewer. But they're at the component level not at the major sub-system level.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. And just the one thing I'd add to that, too, regardless of sourcing (55:15) the supplier, the way to think about our costs and this goes all the way back to first principles, with the value decline is in the part where they cost reasonably turn those commodities into a usable part with reasonable labor and overhead, and that's how we think about all material cost decisions, internal or external.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. I mean, the long-term aspiration for the machine that builds the machine in the factory, alien dreadnaught thing, is the long-term aspiration is limited physics. I maybe call it, like, limited physics manufacturing.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think should we maybe move on to the next question.
David Tamberrino - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Appreciate (55:55).
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Thanks, David.
Operator:
And our next question comes from the line of Joseph Spak of RBC Capital Markets. Your line is now open.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Thanks. I wanted to ask a question on leasing. I know you pointed out that the percent of vehicles that are subject to the RVG this period I think declined by four points and I don't know whether this was coincidental or not but it looks like the direct lease percentage also went up by about four points. So as you dwindle down the RVGs, are you planning that the ultimate lease rate is somewhere in that low- to mid-30% range?
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
There's a bunch of different levers here, so one that's worth pointing out, and we haven't talked a lot about it, is we've put out some very compelling loan products in the marketplace.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Working with partners. Yeah.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. Network (57:05) partners.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah.
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. Through (57:06) partners. So, of course, we always want to continue to do that, and we're always looking for ways where we can provide compelling and useful financing programs for our consumers, whether that's a lease through a partner or whether that's a loan through a partner or whether we leverage our own balance sheet in the case of a direct lease, we'll do that too. Really it's about the consumer experience. And if we can use other folks' capital for that, great. If we use our capital for it, that's fine too, and we're willing to make those decisions.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Okay. And then just back on autonomous, maybe to ask Adam's question a little bit different way. I know you talked about a cross-country trip in 2017, but in terms of turning it on for the consumer, I think in the past you said you need about 6 billion miles travel for regulatory approval. If I just do some crude math, based on your delivery you've got timeline, it seems like at some point in 2018 you'll get there. Maybe it's a year or so later if you believe in consensus deliveries. But if you put aside the regulatory issues, is that roughly the timeframe you think it's ready for the consumer?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. I think the timeframe that we think it's ready and then the timeframe that regulators will approve, because we've got to present the data to them. They've got to think about it; then they've got to render a verdict. And that can sometimes be a long process and it varies – and it vary quite a bit by jurisdiction. I think we may see some jurisdictions giving the okay a lot sooner than others. But when you think about like the global average fatalities, it's sort of somewhere around 60, one fatality every 60 million miles on a global basis. So if you're at 6 billion miles, you're 100 times the fatalities per mile. I mean it'd be like – yeah. So you really start to get quite statistically significant at that point, and it can make quite a strong argument, I believe, at that point that it would be morally wrong not to allow autonomous driving.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Thank you.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Okay. We're coming up on the hour mark. We have one other analyst on the call and then we have some journalists we definitely want to hear from as well. So let's – you want to go a little bit over an hour here, Elon?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Sure. Sure.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Sounds good. All right, Chanel. Let's have the next question, please?
Operator:
Okay. And our next question comes from the line of Charlie Anderson of Dougherty & Co. Your line is now open.
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Thank you. I'll ask just one question. There was a reference to the Tesla network and the ability to buy self-driving today. So I wonder, Elon, if you could talk maybe philosophically about how you're viewing Tesla network. Is it something that will generate income for Tesla? Does it help develop future products, et cetera, at a reasonable gross margin? Or is it something that you'll use more for market share gain, help people offset the price of the car long-term? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
(60:34).
Jason S. Wheeler - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Okay. Go ahead.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Sorry. Just talking internally for a second there. I think it's a bit of both, really. This would be something that would be a significant offset on the cost of ownership of a car and then a revenue generator for Tesla as well. Obviously, the majority of the economics would go to the owner of the car. Sometimes, it's been characterized as Tesla versus Uber or Lyft or something like that. It's not Tesla versus Uber; it's the people versus Uber.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right, Charlie?
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Thanks so much.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Okay.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Daniel Sparks of The Motley Fool. Your line is now open.
Daniel Sparks - The Motley Fool:
Hi. Thanks for including us in the call. I just wanted to get a little perspective on, I noticed in the shareholder letter the narrative kind of shifted. In Q2, you guys were saying that you're aiming toward volume production towards the end of 2017, but now the letter's saying you're looking for volume deliveries in the second half of 2017. Am I just reading into this too much, or does that reflect a greater confidence on management's part or...?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think our confidence has been approximately the same. Obviously, as time goes by, there's some amount of the uncertainty is collapsed. And so, I guess you could kind of call that confidence, but it's – yeah, it's looking good for production volume, second half of 2017. As always, I really want to remind people that a car is – consists of several thousand unique items. We can only go as fast as the slowest item. And so what we're trying to do in advance of 3 production is increase the scope of Tesla's internal capabilities so that we're internally capable of making almost anything. Kind of like reserve troops. You don't know exactly where they'll be needed, but it's a good idea to have them. And so that we can minimize the degree which a single supplier can stop the entire production line.
Daniel Sparks - The Motley Fool:
Okay. Great. And then as Model S and Model X, with higher levels of sales recently, higher levels of deliveries, and as Model 3 approaches, do you feel confident in these levels as Model 3 approaches? I know that we haven't talked too much about 2017, but just kind of speaking as far as trajectory for those deliveries go, and how we could think about it?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, I mean, another thing I want to emphasize is when you – the production ramp tends to look like – it's exponential or ultimately it's an S-curve. Exponential goes to linear, and then it goes to log. And it's very difficult to predict exactly where that beginning part of the exponential and the S-curve fits in between quarterly reporting. A shift of even a few weeks one way or the other can have quite a dramatic effect on what it looks like in that quarter, but that's not indicative of the future. So we're kind of telling you what – we're giving you the best assessment we have, short of having a crystal ball. I think things will look very good exiting 2017, but it will be complicated and bumpy and dealing with a lot of unexpected issues in the beginning of Model 3 production in Q3, Q4, or Q3 particularly is very uncertain, because it's the beginning of an exponential. It gets pretty clearer in Q4, and then starts to be really crisp in the Q1, Q2 timeframe of 2018.
Daniel Sparks - The Motley Fool:
All right. Great. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Tim Higgins of WSJ. Your line is now open.
Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal:
Hi. Thanks for making time. I appreciate it. Just to go back to the capital issue, I hear you saying you don't need to raise capital this year. And I hear that you probably won't do it in the first quarter of next year. But what about next year in general? Should we look at that as a second half or a first half event? You want to raise capital in the first half of next year even if you don't need it?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
I think we cannot make – it's actually I don't think it's legal for us to make specific predictions of certainty with respect to doing an equity raise or something like that. So it's really exactly what I said before, which is our current projections, and this should probably be taken with a grain of salt. Current productions say we don't need to go out and raise much equity. It could be unexpected negative things that occur. It could be some global macroeconomic slowdown. It could be, who knows what could happen. And so, there may be value in de-risking the business and just having higher capital reserves. We're not ready to make that decision yet.
Tim Higgins - The Wall Street Journal:
Okay. Great. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. And our next question comes from the line of Phil LeBeau of CNBC. Your line is now open.
Phil LeBeau - CNBC, Inc.:
Hi, Elon. Quick question, in your shareholder letter, you guys mentioned that you're continuing to explore possibilities for expanding production to Asia and Europe. As you start to look at the production ramp and expanding your facilities in Fremont, do you have a timeframe for when you might make a decision in terms of, I think, this is one we'll probably make some decision about another production facility, whether it's in China, whether it's in Europe, wherever it might be, somewhere beyond Fremont?
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Right now, we're really focused on Gigafactory 1 and Model 3, spending very little time on facilities outside of Fremont, California and Sparks, Nevada. So it's really hard to say, at this point, except to say it's pretty obvious that long-term you want to have your production close to your consumption, so you don't have massive logistics costs, transporting cars halfway around the world. And – yeah. So that's – I think we're probably not ready to talk about that now, and we just don't have a fully formed idea now. We'll probably end up talking about that next year.
Phil LeBeau - CNBC, Inc.:
Great. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. And I'm showing no further questions on the phone lines at this time.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Thanks a lot, Chanel, and thank you, everyone, for joining us today.
Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Thanks, everyone.
Jeff Evanson - Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Bye-bye.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for participating in today's conference. This concludes today's program. You may all disconnect. Everyone have a great day.
Executives:
Jeff Evanson - VP Global Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc. Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO Jonathan McNeill - President-Global Sales & Service, Tesla Motors, Inc. Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer
Analysts:
Neel N. Mehta - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc. Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. (Broker) Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc. Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co. Brad Erickson - Pacific Crest Securities Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management)
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for your patience. You've joined the Tesla Motors Second Quarter 2016 Financial Results Q&A. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session As a reminder, this conference may be recorded. I would now like to turn the call over to your host, Mr. Jeff Evanson. Sir, you may begin.
Jeff Evanson - VP Global Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Thank you, Latif, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's Second Quarter 2016 Q&A Webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, JB Straubel, Jason Wheeler and Jon McNeill. Our Q2 results are in the update letter at the same link as this webcast. And today during our call, we'll discuss our business outlook, make forward-looking statements. These are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent SEC filings. We're going to kick it off today with Jason making some quick comments, followed by Q&A. So please press star one now to get in the queue. And during the Q&A, please try and limit yourselves to one question, one follow up. Let's keep it tight because we've already talked once this week. So, Jason, over to you.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Sure. Thanks, Jeff, and thanks, everybody, for joining. I just wanted to make a few brief comments to add a little bit more color to this shareholder letter. We're clearly disappointed with our delivery numbers, but there's some underlying stories that we feel really good about and I'm going to walk you through those briefly. First, automotive gross margin expanded this quarter. Automotive gross margin excluding ZEV credits grew from 20.1% in Q1 to 21.2% in Q2. A couple of different factors here. One was the Model S refresh. There was a modest price increase on the refresh but, more importantly, we had a baked a number of cost-downs into that vehicle before the launch. And then the second big factor is obviously X production. We talked a lot about how we have come through the struggles on that and how we've managed to climb that production ramp, so that's looking great. On a go-forward basis, the way we're thinking about margins is we certainly see opportunities for continued cost-downs, both on the engineering front, also on the commercial front as well. We've got a supplier base that is very excited about the Model 3 and it's giving us the ability to leverage that on commercial cost downs, also continue manufacturing efficiencies. As we mentioned in shareholder letter, labor hours per car is trending quite positively right now and we're laser focused on continued improvement in that key metric. All right next, talk about the cash position for a second. All right, here's one way to think about it. We ended up with $3.25 billion on the balance sheet at the end of the quarter. We started off the year – on December 31, 2015, we had $1.2 billion. We raised $1.7 billion in our secondary offering and we collected on our Model 3 reservations. Therefore, we are in a very healthy position from a cash perspective. Couple different factors here to talk about. One, we've got $678 million drawn on our asset-backed line. This is something that we've talked about in the past. That is definitely backed up by our operations. Two things there. One, approximately 5,000 cars in transit to customers at quarter end, so we're financing our FGI and we're monetizing our direct lease portfolio. Second factor on the cash position that we'd like to highlight is our continued CapEx discipline. As we talked about in Q1, we had $217 million of CapEx in that quarter; in this quarter $295 million of CapEx. We compare that to averaging nearly $400 million a quarter throughout 2015. We're actually very pleased with these results and we're comfortable that we aren't doing anything to adversely impact our future. On a go-forward basis, thinking about CapEx efficiency, you've heard Elon talk a lot about the machine that makes the machine. A big part of that is focusing on volumetric efficiency. In our call on Monday, I talked about how when we started to review a lot of the Model 3 CapEx plans across the company, there were a bunch of new buildings everywhere. And the reaction to that was, wait a second, we've actually got a nice facilities footprint already and how can we just densify those facilities and not have to invest further in this area? And we're starting to see a lot of that take hold now. Second, I think we're making an attempt to crush the conventional wisdom that capacity increases only happen in step change increments and the capital that follows that in step change increments as well. And to put a little bit more color on that, there are many ways to optimize our current operations. The way to think about this is we can just drive greater throughput through the same investments. So, that's our cash position. Finally, I'd just like to talk for a minute about expense management. In addition to our efforts on CapEx efficiency, we're also very focused on OpEx discipline. This quarter, SG&A would have been flat quarter-over-quarter in spite of our continued expansion in service and sales, were it not for the payroll taxes we paid on our CEO's options exercises. SG&A was up $19 million quarter-over-quarter on a non-GAAP basis. $17 million of that was the payroll expense associated with those option exercises. R&D now does continue to increase as we continued to march towards the Model 3 launch and continued to invest in our future. This is as predicted and as we've signaled in the past. So to wrap it all up, we're very happy with the gross margin expansion in the quarter and we have increased our emphasis on OpEx discipline and CapEx efficiency. We believe our Q2 results reflect that and we're not backing down as we move forward.
Jeff Evanson - VP Global Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Great. Thank you, Jason. All right. Latif, let's go to the first question please.
Operator:
Thank you, sir. Our first question comes from Adam Jonas of Morgan Stanley. Your line is open. Mr. Jonas, please make sure your line isn't muted, and if you're on a speakerphone, lift your handset.
Neel N. Mehta - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Oh, sorry. It was muted. I'm going to ask this question on behalf of Adam Jonas. He had to drop off the call. This is Neel Mehta. This is coming directly from him. Elon, you have explained the strategic rationale for having SolarCity and Tesla Motors join in a combined company. When we think of SpaceX, is there any conceivable strategic rationale for Tesla Motors and Tesla Energy, or Tesla Solar, to work closely with the efforts of space exploration? And when we're thinking about this, we're thinking proprietary lower orbit satellite network to enhance the connected autonomous car ecosystem. So, yeah, just wanted to get your thoughts on that, first of all, and I have a follow-up as well.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yeah, I don't think there's a strong product rationale to combine SpaceX and Tesla whereas there is for Tesla and SolarCity. It's really quite tenuous for SpaceX and Tesla. And there's a little cooperation that happens between the companies, but it's not that would justify merging them into one entity.
Neel N. Mehta - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Got it. And can you also give us an update on Tesla's proprietary mapping initiatives?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
I think we would prefer to be confidential in that regard. It would be...
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
All right. Latif, let's go to the next question.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
But what we've said thus far is that there's need to have much higher definition maps than currently exists anywhere in the world in order to have full autonomy. And we're in the process of building those and I think making good progress.
Neel N. Mehta - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Got it. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Brian Johnson of Barclays. Your line is open.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes. Thank you for taking my question. Couple of questions very much tied to cash flow and the borrowing capacity. First is just around customer deposits, which were a source of cash in the quarter, but looked to be about $288 million. As of May, you had 373,000-ish Model 3 preorders, which would imply about a $375 million inflow, or $373 million. Could you maybe walk us between that number and what the actual change in deposits were, and in particular, where did Model 3 preorders end the quarter at?
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Sure. So in terms of thinking about the cash flow, yeah, you're doing your math correctly, but we also release deposits when we deliver cars. So, there's an inflow and there's an outflow there. And the deposits on the early Model X cars were larger than the later Model X cars as well, so that's one of the impacts there as well. In terms of the Model 3 reservations, the 373,000 number that you referenced is what we've talked about when we did our secondary offering. And we're sticking to that number in terms of disclosure.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. Second question around the shift from increased on-balance sheet captive lending. My quick calculations, if you go up 8% in the back half off of your $50,000 guide, that seems to be at $100,000, about a $350 million cash need. Now admittedly, you're paying your – actually it would be less with the cost of goods sold, call it $250 million, $280 million. Are you going to finance that out of your ABL? How quickly can you get another lease partner? And what do the amendments to the credit agreement for SolarCity do to your ability to borrow against that for this captive financing?
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Sure. So in terms of the – the ABL is definitely available for some of that for sure and then the overall liquidity position gives us confidence that we'll be able to do this. At the same time, we do have many active discussions going on with other lease partners and we're looking at other ways to do this as well. And I don't want to talk a lot about SolarCity on this call. That's not what it is, but they've got some pretty advanced capability and thinking through how to walk through this as well.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. Thank you.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Sure. Great questions.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Charlie Anderson of Dougherty & Co. Your question, please.
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Yeah, thanks for taking my questions. My first question is around the sharing of vehicles described in the updated master plan. So, if we're moving from 5% to 10% utilization of the vehicle to some larger number, I wonder what you think the ramifications of that might be on the number of cars that need to be produced every year. And then maybe the ramifications as it relates to the Supercharger if the cars are always driving around. And then I have a follow-up.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Well, I think the demand for autonomous cars will vastly outweigh the production capability. So it's more in our mind that the global fleet of vehicles is about 2.5 billion roughly and total new vehicle production per year is only about 100 million. So, the fleet is basically turning over every roughly 20, 25 years. So we would have to make some truly enormous number of autonomous vehicles for there to be any land saturation because it will basically be the only car anyone wants to buy.
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Thanks. And then for my second question, I wonder if you could clarify comments made on the last call about inverter technology. You mentioned having some of the best in the world for power electronics. So I wonder if you could just comment if indeed that's the case that you will be making your own inverter, and if so, what would be the benefit to the overall system with your inverter technology versus what's used today?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yeah, there's no question Tesla's going to do integrated inverter. It's the logical thing to do. I think we've got the most advanced inverter engineering team in the world, and so it makes sense to, just as we do the inventers on vehicles, to do it with solar as well and have it in a very tight package at a cents per watt level that is I think probably twice as good as anyone else. I think maybe better than that. So, that's like the obvious move there, and as part of what we're referring to as kind of an integrated product, I mean, if you place yourself in the consumer's shoes, you just want it to work. You don't want to know how it works. You don't care about the details. It's just got to work reliably, look good, not take up a ton of space, the buying process has got be easy. You can check up on it with the app on your phones. There's only one phone app. You want it to be easy. You want it to just work. You want it to be affordable. You want it to look good. So, that's what we're going to do.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah, and I think, just to add to that, when power electronics work well, you really don't even notice them. I mean, no one thinks about...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Exactly.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
...buying an inventor for your electric car. Don't even know it has one.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Most people don't even know what an inverter is. They've never heard of this thing.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
So yeah. Our goal is...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
And that's not... yeah.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Our goal is to basically make them seamless, and make it, as Elon said, easy for people to use so they don't have to worry about what an inverter is, how it works. It's just all integrated into one simple system. Just like it is in the car.
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Right. Thanks so much.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Most people don't even know what AC or DC is. If you ask, so what's DC current? Or, what's direct current? What's alternating current? They would not be able to tell you. A lot of people don't even know the difference between power and energy. One's in kilowatts, another one's in kilowatt hours, and they don't need to know, like there's not a good reason for them to know. Stuff should just work and take care of itself.
Jeff Evanson - VP Global Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Latif, next question?
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Colin Langan of UBS. Your line is open.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Oh, great. Thanks for taking my question. Can you just give an update of the Model S demand? In the press release, you indicate Model S and Model X orders are up about 65% year-over-year. But if we look at deliveries and production of the Model S, it hasn't changed that much since Q4. And you're rolling out the lower-priced 60 kWh version. So if demand is up so much, why offer a lower-priced model and why hasn't production really been up that much more?
Jonathan McNeill - President-Global Sales & Service, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
So, it's Jon. I'll give you a little bit of color on the demand, which has been healthy for Model S in the second quarter and into the third quarter as well. As we mentioned in the shareholder letter, we didn't have cars in the European market with the new refresh until the last month of the quarter, but despite that, we had year-over-year growth in Model S demand. And we had some very healthy growth in the markets where we had cars in stores, so we had double digit growth in both North America and China, really healthy growth in both of those markets. That growth has continued into the third quarter, but one of the reasons we introduced the 60 kWh was we saw more Model 3 demand than we anticipated. We talked about that last quarter, and a number of those reservation holders said to us, we'd love to be in a Tesla today if you could provide a more affordable version of the Model S. Our battery technology allows us to do that, and so we introduced the 60 kWh. And that's generated demand out of a new market segment that is reaching down into that Model 3 reservation holder territory and portends really good things for a future Model 3 demand, but it's opened up a very nice segment for us for Model S.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
People are not buying the base model. They're like, they buy the 60 kWh, and then they option it up quite a bit. So it ends up having like an average sale price, like over $80,000, and then actually all the 60 kWh's actually have the 75 kWh capacity. It's just software limited. There's potential for them to upgrade it over time and certainly for the resale value of the car to be enhanced when it's returned to Tesla by unlocking the additional 15 kilowatt hours of that factory capability. So, I mean, I think in sort of a nutshell, one way to think about Tesla right now is that we're right around 2,000 cars a week and we're trying to balance the mix to be roughly half Model X and Model S. There are some variations depending upon regionality. Some parts of the world prefer more SUVs. Some prefer more sedans. And we do tend to batch up our cars. This is why occasionally you see nonsensical articles about Tesla's demand suddenly rising in some country or suddenly falling. It's got nothing do with that. It just happens to be when the ship arrived. But a high-level overview is just we see demand being fairly strong at an average of 2,000 cars a week and we're able to maintain production at that level, notwithstanding occasional supplier hiccups. And then hopefully, we can grow that a little bit towards the end of the quarter and then a little more in Q4. And our aspiration that's unvarnished here, this is just what we're aiming to do internally is to do a little better than 2,000 a week in sales and deliveries in Q4, combined Model S and Model X. I feel fairly optimistic about achieving that goal. Yeah, I think our core business is actually doing quite well right now.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Just as a follow up. Any update on stationary storage? I think your original target for $400 million to $500 million for this year and the $5 million for next year, any just color on how that's trending?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Heavily engineering and production constraints. We've got some next-generation technology and we're going to split up that production line. So, it's going to be heavily concentrated in Q4 and probably even heavily in November and December. But I think it's going to be really exciting when people see it. So, that's why I expect kind of exponential growth from there. I think it's really going to go ballistic.
Jonathan McNeill - President-Global Sales & Service, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah, and we have been making quite a few background investments in the markets where we're growing, setting up the teams and setting up to get ready for expanded product installation and distribution, especially in places like Australia and Germany. So, some of that takes a bit of time but it's laying the infrastructure for faster growth.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Okay. Thanks very much.
Jeff Evanson - VP Global Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Latif, let's go to the next question, please.
Operator:
And next question comes from the line of Colin Rusch of Oppenheimer. Your question, please.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. (Broker):
As you look forward and without the residual value guarantee, can you talk about what's going to happen with the warranty expense on the vehicles?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Sure. So, I think the way to think about warranty, and we put this in the shareholder letter, our ongoing reserves is roughly consistent with what it's been, with what it was last quarter. And the RVG really doesn't have an impact on warranty expense. Really, warranty expense is all about reliability, and reliability is something that we are constantly monitoring. And as we see positive things happen or things, they go in the other direction with reliability, that's how we think about the ongoing reserves for warranty.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
So I don't think the -
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Okay. Yeah, yeah, I feel like the quality, I think, has improved quite dramatically, specifically with respect to Model X. We had a lot of challenges in the production ramp. That's always the most difficult time when you're going from zero to 1,000 cars a week. It's just you've got to pull at this huge baggage train of suppliers along with you and you've got to solve a lot of issues internally so that production ramp is a lot of hurt. But now we're pretty stable at the 2,000 cars a week level. And every time we (22:42), it's getting better. So that each passing week gets better and better. And so I actually feel pretty good about our warranty reserves actually declining over time as a result of that.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Okay, great. And then my follow up is around Mobileye and the ending of that partnership and how you guys are going to approach that functionality going forward with the driver assist in the autonomous driving push going forward.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
I think we'll have a more significant announcement on that later. So it's not really – earnings call is not the right time for that except that it will be a Tesla solution, internal solution.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Okay, great. Thanks, guys.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Ryan Brinkman of JPMorgan. Your line is open.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Great. Thanks for taking my question, which I guess is really for Elon. As Tesla grows very quickly and becomes increasingly diversified going from just the Model S to recently include the Model X and now the Model 3 soon and you've added Tesla Energy to the mix; now SolarCity. So I'm really curious how you think about management focus and attention and what you and your team are going to be doing to ensure strong execution and focus as you head into the very important and, by your own admission, very challenging launch of the Model 3.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Well, I think the Model 3 is overwhelmingly our focus. Yeah. Things feel really quite stable with Model S and Model X. We're kind of in the mode of continuous improvement, but no fundamental issues. So, I feel like the machine that's making Model X and Model S is actually functioning quite well right now. And I definitely burn out of few neurons and a lot of other people did solving the production ramp earlier this year. I feel we're in a good place at this point. So, the focus really is on Model 3 and followed by full autonomy as – well it's our two priorities.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay. And then the follow up is, as you're starting here in Q3 to ramp up the spending on both the Gigafactory and the Model 3 development capacity, et cetera, are you seeing that one or the other, the Model 3 or the retrofit of Model 3 (25:23) is providing more or less potential bottlenecks than the other in terms of getting to that July 1 Model 3 launch?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
I don't actually know of any – there's not any one standout issue for July 1. Now, I did say this on the last earnings call and I think it probably bears reiterating because – and I think it makes sense if you think about it, but it does require a bit of thinking about it. I don't expect us to be at full production on July 1, but I have to drive all suppliers and internal efforts to that date, knowing that some will fall short. And those that fall short, the suppliers that fall short will be cut out of the picture. And if there are teams internally that fail to execute effectively, we will reorganize those teams. But if several thousand parts are not driven to a particular date, there is no chance of making any point even past that date. Now in an ideal world, this would be a confidential internal – do I want to a confidential internal – July 1 will be a confidential internal target. Given the amount of attention that Tesla receives and the fact there are several or if you count two to three, three and four suppliers, there's several thousand companies involved. It is obviously impossible to keep that confidential. You can't. So then in order to have a consistent message, internally knowing that that message will also leak externally that's where the July 1 date comes from. There isn't any other way to do it. If anybody's got better suggestions, I'd like to hear what they are. So I expect production to occur at some point after July 1, but I don't know what today would cause us to slip past that date. And if I did, I would take action to address it.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Great. Thanks for the color.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
All right, Ryan.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from John Murphy of Bank of America. Your line is open.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Good afternoon. The first question is, as we think about the 60 kilowatt-hour versions of the Model S and Model X, I'm just curious if you could talk about the profitability of those right now versus the other models or the corporate average as you see it?
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yes, sure. So...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Well...
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Go ahead, Elon.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yes, so I was going to say, because people are optioning up the 60 kilowatt-hour, it actually ends up being decent. Maybe it's sort of like 15% to 20% gross margin where I say something like if somebody orders a Performance Dual Motor that might actually be more like a 30%, 35% gross margin. But there's just a small number of people that want high-performance cars and are willing to pay triple digits – six digits I should say. But it also remains to be seen how many who order the 60 kilowatt-hour then choose to do the upgrade to the 75 kilowatt-hour rate. So there's going be some number, but it's too early to tell, of people who buy the 60 kilowatt-hour, realize they want the extra range and then they can just order it kind of like an in-app purchase on the car screen and unlock it. I suspect we'll see pretty decent number of people do that. But it's still very early, so it's hard to say what number that would be. And if they do do that, then it would push the gross margins up into the 20%s, like in the mid-20%s or so.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
That's helpful. And then just, Jason, maybe two quick housekeeping questions. CapEx at $2.25 billion, you're running at a run rate that's less than half after the first half of the year. So just curious how realistic that number is for the full year because you guys have committed to it in the Shareholder Letter again. Then also the auto gross margin going up 200 basis points to 300 basis points off of what base? It's not clear what base that's coming off of. Just trying to understand the exit gross margin for the year you're expecting.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yes, sure. No problem. So I'm going to add just a little bit of color onto the 60 kilowatt-hour gross margin numbers, too. We're aspirational on this. But the way to think about this is very important. Those cars are gross margin positive and they're producing cash. So if you think about from an overall operating leverage perspective, even if the gross margin profile on those is less than our other variants, it's still producing contribution margin to pay for the fixed cost of the business. So I think it's the right economic thing to do. And even more importantly, it's right for the customer to continue to broaden the market that way. On your two housekeeping questions, good questions. On the CapEx front, as you heard in my opening comments, we are deadly focused on CapEx efficiency. So I think we can beat the $2.25 billion number, but we didn't see any need to update that guidance at this time. And then your question about gross margin on the basis, I was just looking at the quarter-over-quarter. In Q1 automotive gross margin, excluding ZEV credits was 20.1% and we expanded that to 21.9% in Q2. And it's expansion on both the Model X and the Model S variants.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
But the 2 points to 3 points of expansion in Q3 and Q4 is off the 21.9% base in second quarter?
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
I see you're asking about the forward...
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Yes.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
...the forward-looking. Yes, so we expect where we're at today, we'll see another 2 points to 3 points expansion between now and the end of the year.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Great. Thank you very much.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yes, sure. No problem.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Joseph Spak of RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Thanks. Good afternoon. Jason, just first question to follow-up on that last one. So even 2 points to 3 points on gross margin sequentially, that seems below the prior guidance, which I think called for 30% to exit the year on the Model S and 25% on Model X. So is it related to the updated mix view on the 60 kilowatt-hour? Was there something else going on or what's the source of the change?
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yes, no, a couple things there, and our previous guidance has been approaching 25% on Model X and approaching 30% on Model S. So I think we're maybe a quarter or two off on that, but you're pointing to the right things. One is just the mix shift that we're seeing with more Model Xs being produced and those margins are healthy and headed in the right direction, but they are obviously less than Model S. And now that we're halfway through the year two, we've talked a lot about just the production issues we've had overall. And this certainly had an impact on the first half of the year and it's just difficult to make up for all of that in the next six months. And then the impact, you talk about the 60s kilowatt-hour. The 60s kilowatt-hour may I have somewhat of a impact on gross margin?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Pretty small, though.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Pretty small, yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yes, it's pretty small. But I'm cautiously optimistic that we will actually meet those numbers by the end of the year. Maybe not for Q4 as a whole. But exiting Q4, my best guess is we're just under 30% for Model S and around 25% for Model X by the end of this year. That's what it looks like to me.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Okay. And then, Elon, just as a philosophical question, as you transition to an in-house autopilot or autonomous solution, would you consider, in order to help build public support and confidence about releasing regular reports similar to what Google does on what the technology is doing and open the data?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Well, unfortunately and fortunately, Tesla cannot sneeze without there being a national headline. So I think you don't have to worry too much about whether we'll report it because the media will and then inflate it in size by 1,000. Like last year there were 35,000 automotive deaths in the U.S. How many did you read about?
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Right. I guess maybe instead of public support, what about regulator support? What are your views on sharing the data in that respect?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Actually, with the regulators we share the data well in advance of – as soon as we know it. We shared the data regarding, say, the Florida fatality like a month, certainly weeks before and NHTSA actually opened investigation. In fact, we're not totally clear on why they opened the investigation, because they actually had all the information before they made a formal investigation. Like I said, it was a little puzzling as to why they – we would have already given them all the information. So there wasn't really anything more to learn.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Okay. Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from James Albertine of Consumer Edge Research. Your line is open.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Great. Thank you. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking the questions. Real quick, a housekeeping item. I've heard and we saw obviously in the second quarter there was some lumpiness in the production and you ended up, I think, with 50 vehicles,100 vehicles or so in transit at the end of the quarter. But I've heard Elon and Jason say stable or stabilization here a few times in the call. Just wanted to get a sense for how we should be thinking about the back-half deliveries and back-half expenses. Should it be relatively linear from here as we work toward, for example, your 30% year-over-year expense guidance? Thanks.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yes, sure...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yes, I mean, sorry, I would also like to say a few words and Jason can address it. Basically, we were in production hell for the first six months of this year. Man, it was hell. And then we just managed to climb out of hell in like basically partway through June. And now the production line is humming and our suppliers mostly have their shit together. There's a few that don't. One I'm going to be visiting on Saturday personally to figure out what the hell's going on there. But we'll solve it. But just the thing that's crazy hard about cars is that there's several thousand unique items and you move as fast as the slowest item in the whole car. So, yes, with that said, production is like, it feels like we're – I'm not losing sleep at night literally because of production issues right now. 2,000 feels like a good number with a slow, steady increase in that number, and then continued cost efficiencies, which help with gross margin, some features that are going to come out that will also help on the revenue side. And I feel actually really good about Model S and Model X right now, but I'll get a whole lot of mental scar tissue from first six months of this year. Jason?
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yes, I think, Elon, I think you covered it well. In terms of the modeling question, yes, I think just extrapolating from where we're at now, we're stable. We'll continue to get better on production throughout the course of the year. We've got a couple more holiday weeks in Q4. You might want to think about that when you're doing your modeling. But, yes, I think Elon covered it well.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Okay, and if I may...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
And also to...
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Oh, sorry.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
...steady improvements in – almost every week, we see an improvement in labor hours per car, which is great from a cost standpoint. Also the Tesla production team has been working super hard and we don't want to burn people out, so it's good to see the hours per car come down almost every week as a sign of improved efficiency.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Very good. I appreciate the additional color. If I may just sneak in a quick follow-up on the autonomy topic. Elon, as we think about the stages of autonomy, I believe NHTSA's outlined five stages or zero to five. And we've seen some competitors of yours outline with some detail 2017 to 2020 to 2022 type targets. How should we think about your target? And can you help us dimension a little bit more your targets in the path to level five? Let's assume for the moment that nothing's changed and given the accident in May, and if it has incrementally, that'd be helpful. But just wanted to understand in more detail I think how you plan to get to fully autonomous. Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Well, again, major product announcements are not – I shouldn't do those on an earnings call, obviously. And all I'd say is that full autonomy is going to come a hell of a lot faster than anyone thinks it will. And I think what we've got under development is going to blow people's minds. It blows my mind, so.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Thank you, again. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
So, yes, I get it all the time.
James J. Albertine - Consumer Edge Research LLC:
Thank you for taking my questions. I appreciate it.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Sure.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Rod Lache of Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Thanks. I had a couple things. One is just following up on Tesla Energy, can you talk a little bit about the business pipeline, what's the mix of customers you're selling your product to? And is there a significant contingent of solar? And I wasn't clear on – there was an earlier question on whether the business is still tracking to around $500 million this year. Could you just elaborate on that business line?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yes, it's heavily dependent on the production ramp in the last few months of the year. So there's definitely nothing even remotely close to demand constraints on the Tesla Energy side. It's entirely getting the engineering done, getting it validated, getting UL certification, scaling up all elements of the supply chain and being able to produce in volume. So the reason it's tricky to predict is because the volume ramp looks like an exponential and so if you move the dates around even a little bit, it can quite significantly change what occurs in a quarter just because the production ramp is an exponential and shifts up a couple weeks, it can make the quarter look low, but actually it's in vertical climb mode. So the following quarter will look amazing. So what I'm highly confident of is that the next generation of stationary charge is head and shoulders above anything else that I've even heard announced as future plans from other companies.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. It's...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
So we've just got to build those damn things.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Yes, the customers that you're anticipating, are there significant renewables in there? Is it commercial, residential?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yes.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
What are you seeing?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Everything.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
All of the above? Okay.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yes.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
And...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
We've just got to scale up production, and production is a hard thing. It's real hard.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Particularly when it's new technology. If it's some standard technology to make for one time, it's fine. It's cutting edge technology, it's really hard to scale up production, because you've got to design the machine that makes the machine, not just the machine itself. But the results can be amazing. Like I said, it's going be head and shoulders above anything else. It's better than anything I've heard anyone even announce that they will do in near future, and we will do it in the present.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Thanks. And on the topic of production, you've said some really interesting things about step-function changes in automotive manufacturing and improving the volumetric efficiency.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yes, absolutely.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Typically, as I'm sure you know, the bottlenecks in auto manufacturing are really not in the automated functions like the body shop. They're in things like final trim and assembly that are more labor-intensive, when you've got people crawling in and out of vehicles. Do you see a significant step-function improvement there like inside out manufacturing...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yes.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
...or something like that? Is that something that we're going to see on the Model 3?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
The Model 3 – the internal name for designing the machine makes the machine is the – we call it the alien dreadnought. At the point at which the factory looks like an alien dreadnought, then you know you've won. It's like, what the hell is that? So we've got alien dreadnought version 0.5 will be Model 3. It will take us another year get to version 1 and probably a major version every two years thereafter. By version 3, it won't look like anything else. It might look like a giant chip pick-and-place machine or a super high-speed bottling or canning plant, and you really can't have people in the production line itself. Otherwise you'll automatically drop to people speed. There's still a lot of people at the factory, but what they're doing is maintaining the machines, upgrading them, dealing with anomalies. But in the production process itself there essentially would be no people.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Yes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
With version 1, not version 0.5. But I don't want people to think, oh, Tesla's going to have a factory without people. It's going be a huge number of people, but they will be maintaining machines and upgrading the machines and dealing with anomalies. And the output per person will be extraordinarily high.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Sounds like a lot of innovation there. One last just housekeeping thing for Elon or Jason. You'd previously talked about the objective of profitability in the fourth quarter, but I know a lot's changing with the mix and also with the direct leasing. So is that also something that we should think as being pushed out a quarter?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Well, if you exclude Model 3 CapEx ramp, then – well in fact, really for Q3 and for Q4, Tesla would be profitable excluding the Model 3 CapEx ramp.
Rod Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Pat Archambault of Goldman Sachs. Your line is open.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Terrific. Thanks for taking my questions. I guess just an accounting question maybe for Jason. With the residual value guarantee going away, what happens to the accounting for revenues? Do you get to something more close to what we see in other OEM financials, and maybe just have the portion that's direct lease be accounted for as leases? And what would be the timing of changes assuming they do happen?
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yes, no. Absolutely, and the answer to timing of changes is right away. So a car that is sold without an – so with an RVG that drops us into lease accounting. And what we've done historically and we'll continue to do for RVGs is we recognize the full revenue on a non-GAAP basis. What changes when there's not an RVG in the equation is you get full revenue recognition on a GAAP basis as well as a non-GAAP basis. So good things happen on the accounting side.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Okay. And then this is something that within the next quarter or something you'll already see a significant reduction in that adjustment obviously.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
You'll see that but the other thing I want to point you to is what we've already talked about in uptake in direct leasing. When we have used a partner in the past for leasing that gives us non-GAAP revenue recognition on that. Our non-GAAP revenue recognition is very simply called the cash. If somebody pays us cash for a car, we recognize it in non-GAAP revenue. When we do direct leasing, then that drops us into pure lease accounting. So it will be that way on a GAAP and a non-GAAP basis.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
And is the 8% to 15% is that just kind of a temporary measure while you're setting up these new partner relationships? Or do you actually expect to stay at 15% for some time?
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
So 15% is what we're talking about for Q3 and I think I mentioned earlier we've got a bunch of active conversations with new partners. There's another factor too, which is I think important to point out. We've introduced some pretty compelling loan programs, particularly in North America, in the last 90 days, and we're starting to see some shift from leasing towards loans. And to bring the answer to your question full circle, loan is full GAAP and full non-GAAP revenue recognition.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Got it. That's helpful. And I think it'll be helpful for just the users of financial statements as well. The ZEV credits, you mentioned that they weren't material. I feel like it's been written that there was kind of a glut of supply on those. And I don't know, is that just the lumpiness of it or is that a revenue process of going away?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Well, yes, actually if I could say something and I'd really want to emphasize this quite strongly and I hope it does get picked up in the media is that the California Air Resources Board is being incredibly weak in its application of ZEV credits. The standards are pathetically low. They need to be increased. There's massive lobbying by the big car companies to prevent CARB from increasing the ZEV credits mandate, which they absolutely damn well should. It's a crying shame that they haven't. And as a result, you can barely sell the ZEV credit for pennies on the dollar.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Got it. Okay. So...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
CARB should damn well be ashamed of themselves.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
All right. No, I think that answers my question pretty directly then. The last one, just one housekeeping one. Any chance, and sorry, if I missed it, ex-production for the quarter, are you able to share that?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
We haven't worked on. Yeah.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Okay. I think that was a no, but fair enough. Those were my questions. I'll let somebody else get in. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Brad Erickson of Pacific Crest Securities. Your line is open.
Brad Erickson - Pacific Crest Securities:
Hi. Thanks for taking the question. Just had a quick follow up, I guess, on something that's been asked a couple of times; take another run at it. I guess given that you're obviously no longer working with this key supplier around full autonomy. What are the major hurdles that you see for Tesla here to overcome to get to full autonomy? Is it just a case of software development, lots more miles driven and basically getting the right people in place? Any color on sort of some of the key challenges you're facing and where you're particularly focused for delivering full autonomy at some point? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Well, full autonomy is really a software limitation. I mean the hardware is just to create full autonomy, so it's really about developing advanced, narrow AI for the car to operate on. I want to emphasize narrow AI, it's like not going to take over the world, but it needs to be really good at driving a car. So increasingly sophisticated neural maps that can operate in reasonably sized computers in the car. That's our focus. I'm very optimistic about this. It's exciting, it blows me away, the progress we're making. So I think if I'm this close to it and it's blowing me away, it's really going to blow other people away when they see it for the first time.
Jeff Evanson - VP Global Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Latif, I guess we'll go to the next question.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Ben Kallo of Robert W. Baird. Your line is open. Mr. Kallo, your line is open. Please make sure it isn't muted.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
All right. I think we'll just take a few more questions. So let's maybe do this and one or two more and call it a day.
Operator:
Okay. Our next question comes from the line of Emmanuel Rosner of CLSA. Your line is open.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
Hi, everybody. I wanted to ask just a couple of questions on the update to the master plan. The first one is on the sharing piece. So definitely a very exciting goal. At the same time, I feel like a lot of automakers as well as municipalities are all working on their version of ride sharing through autonomous driverless cars, and to the extent that a lot of what buyers are looking at in Tesla now is the driving experience, and that it really doesn't matter as much when you're being driven. What do you view as your future competitive advantage in a ride sharing type of environment?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
I think the quality of the ride is always going to matter, and yeah, nobody wants to drive if you're sitting in stop-and-go traffic. That's boring. But if you're driving on a beautiful country road or along the seaside, then I think it feels wonderful to drive, and you want to do that. So I don't think cars are going to just become some boring utility.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
Got it. And I guess on the piece about expanding the product lineup to other major segments, what do you view as your target timing for that? I know there was a mention of some of these cars being available to be unveiled next year. So does that mean that we're looking at the following year? Or is that into the next decade? And what capital needs are we looking at for that?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
I think we want to postpone anything that's a heavy capital impact until after the Model 3 production is ramped. We don't want to stack Model 3 CapEx on top of other program CapEx, but there's a lot we can do. Because the development of a vehicle, there's a long sort of tail at the beginning of a development of a vehicle which involves a lot of time, but doesn't involve a lot of cost. It's only when you begin tooling up for production that the cost really ramps dramatically. So there's a lot we can do before we actually dive into ramp CapEx, and we won't do that for any products until after Model 3's in high production. Yeah, but I think there's going be some pretty exciting unveils for the Tesla Semi and Tesla Minibus or bus. We don't actually have a name for it yet. That's just off of the Model X platform, so just doesn't involve a lot of CapEx actually. But we expect to probably unveil those, I think, for the middle of next year, maybe in the next six months to nine months type of thing, and then have a better, a more fleshed out plan for when those would enter production. But they would enter production within like low single-digit years, not like – I mean I consider like anything past five years as infinity.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
All right. That's very helpful.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yeah. I mean, also to be clear like the priority vehicle development after the Model 3 would be the Model Y, I guess, the compact SUV, because that's also a car that where we expect to see demand in the 500,000 to 1,000,000 unit per year level. So it's the obvious priority after the Model 3.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
Great. Thanks.
Jeff Evanson - VP Global Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Latif, if there's one more, let's have that one and then wrap it up.
Operator:
Yes, sir. Our final question comes from the line of Tyler Frank of Robert Baird. Your question, please.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Hi, guys. Thanks for taking the question. Two short questions. One, can you discuss when you expect to be profitable on a non-GAAP basis? And then number two, you had mentioned on the last call that the Gigafactory may actually have the ability to produce about three times of your original estimate. Will that entail significant CapEx in the future, or are you preparing that foundation right now to reach over 100 gigawatt hours? Thank you.
Jason S. Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah, sure. On the profitability question, just reiterate what Elon said earlier. If we can execute on our production and our delivery goals in the second half of the year, we got a great chance to be non-GAAP profitable. So...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
Yeah, excluding Model 3 CapEx. The real question on profitability is where do we set the dial on growth? And obviously, if you set the dial on growth to be super high, then you face dilution because of that increased capital. If you set it too low, there's less dilution but then you grow slower. So you want to set it at the right level where your – the right mix of dilution and growth. I mean, as it is, it's just important to bear in mind, like as a manufacturing company, our percentage growth, I think it's unprecedented in the modern era. It's really nutty. I mean, in 2010, we were making 600 cars a year and Lotus was doing the chassis, body and chassis. And then five years later, we are making 50,000. And it was a much more sophisticated car with Model X and we were doing the whole car without any partner. So when you have like an insane percentage growth like that in the manufacturing company, it's not like you're shipping copies of software here, it's a real tricky strategic business to, where do you set things from a solution versus growth standpoint? So, I mean, the right way to look at the product line – the company's – let's just say the product line and say and value them as – sort of do an NPV of the product lines. And then for any given product line you can say, okay, this is what that is likely to be worth. The Model S, the Model X, the Model 3 and then you can parse it out relative to the CapEx on new vehicles. And to the degree that the past predicts the future, then you can pretty much count on like the new vehicle program also being incredibly valuable and something where it would be mad not to spend the money to do it. But when all of that's lumped together can be confusing. And then they will think Tesla's a money-losing company but well, not really. Not if you're growing at like 100% a year or in the case of next year, I mean our unit volume – we'll probably exit next year at unit volume that's 200% or 300% what our current volume is, maybe 400%. So it's just real important to parse things out and to understand what the real health of the business is. Right now, I mean in a nutshell, we're shipping $10 billion a year of product on an annualized basis at somewhere around 23% to 25% gross margin.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Right.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
And just quickly to your Gigafactory question, this is JB. A lot of the improvements that we've made are actually increasing the density of the Gigafactory.
Tyler Charles Frank - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Private Wealth Management):
Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
And the density of how much equipment and (1:02:19) the existing footprint. So in that case, there's a lot of investments we've already made
Jeff Evanson - VP Global Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right, guys. We're at the hour mark. Shall we call it a day? Yep. Let's do it. All right. Thanks a lot, everybody for joining us, and we look forward to talking to you next quarter. Bye-bye.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman, Product Architect and CEO:
All right. Thanks a lot, bye.
Operator:
That does conclude your program. Thank you for your participation, and have a wonderful day. You may disconnect your lines at this time.
Executives:
Jeff Evanson - Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc. Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer Jonathan McNeill - President-Global Sales & Service, Tesla Motors, Inc.
Analysts:
James J. Albertine, Jr. - Stifel, Nicolaus & Co., Inc. Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. (Broker) Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co. Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc. Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch Rod A. Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc. Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker) Dana Hull - Bloomberg Phil LeBeau - CNBC, Inc. Alexandria Sage - Thomson Reuters Corporation
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla Motors First Quarter 2016 Financial Results Q&A Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session and instructions will follow at this time. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would now like to turn the conference over to your host, Mr. Jeff Evanson. Mr. Evanson, you may begin.
Jeff Evanson - Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Thank you, Shari, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Tesla's first quarter 2016 Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Tesla Chairman and CEO; J.B. Straubel, our CTO; CFO, Jason Wheeler; and Jon McNeill, President of Global Sales, Service and Delivery. Our Q1 results are announced in the update letter at the same link as this webcast. As usual, this letter includes GAAP and non-GAAP financial information, and reconciliations between the two. During our call, we will discuss our business outlook and make forward-looking statements. These are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recently filed Form 10-K at the SEC website. We're going to start today's call with some comments by Elon, followed by the question-and-answer period, and during the Q&A time, please try and limit yourselves to one question and one follow up so we can give everyone a chance to ask a question. So while Elon is making his remarks, if you haven't done so, go ahead and please press star-1 now to get into the queue to ask a question. Elon, I'll turn it over to you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
All right. Thank you. I think the most important point here that we want to make is that we're advancing the Model 3 build plan substantially, and just the overall volume plan, with Tesla aiming to get to the half million unit per year run rate in 2018 instead of 2020. And this is based off of the tremendous [amount of interest] received for the Model 3, which I think is actually a fraction of the ultimate demand once people fully understand what the car's capable of and are able to do a test drive. So this is probably the biggest change strategically. Also, Tesla is going to be hell-bent on becoming the best manufacturer on earth. Thus far, I think we've done a good job on design and technology of our products. The Model S and X I think are generally regarded by very critical judges as technologically the most advanced cars in the world. And so I think they've done well in that respect. The key thing we need to achieve in the future is to also be the leader in manufacturing. We take manufacturing very seriously at Tesla. It's the thing that we need to obviously solve if we're going to scale and scale rapidly and make the cars more affordable. So I really want to sort of send the message out there to the best manufacturing people in the world, we want you to come join our company. And that is going to be the primary focus of Tesla, is how do we get super-good at making large, complex objects? So that's I think the most salient point. It's easy to get wrapped up in like a bunch of sort of short-term issues, but I think in terms of what matters for the future, I think that's the most significant thing. Overall, on the short-term stuff, our quarter-over-quarter stuff I think has improved quite significantly. I've seen Model X production increase by a factor of five from Q4 to Q1, and we continue to make huge strides in volume and quality of the vehicle. And I'm personally spending an enormous amount of time on the production line. My desk is at the end of the production line. I have a sleeping bag in a conference room adjacent to the production line, which I use quite frequently. The whole team is super-focused on achieving rate and quality at the target cost. So I felt very confident in us achieving that goal. And with the increase in ramp, we do feel comfortable affirming the 89,000 deliveries this year. So, I think the rate of improvement with each passing day is very significant. I'd like to sort of thank Greg Reichow, who was our head of production for tremendous contribution over the last five years. Contrary to some media reports, Greg is still at Tesla. He is still with the company, and he is helping with the transition to some new leadership. And we have some I think exciting announcements coming in the next, possibly the next few weeks about additions to the Tesla management team on the production side. So I'm feeling really, really excited about where things are headed in that direction. All right. With that, let's go to questions.
Operator:
Thank you. Our first question comes from James Albertine of Stifel.
James J. Albertine, Jr. - Stifel, Nicolaus & Co., Inc.:
Great. Thank you so much question. And, Elon, thank you for that introduction. There's no doubt you have an incredible undertaking in front of you. Can you help us understand some of the key obstacles and how we should consider those obstacles between now and your anticipated launch of the Model 3 in late 2017? Whether it's sort of P&L adjustments that we need to make along the way? But can you just help us sort of choreograph how that's going to take place?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Sure. So with the Model 3, as I mentioned on the last earnings call, we're really trying to take a lot of lessons learned from Model X, where Model X, we put a lot of bells and whistles on Model X and a lot of advanced technologies that weren't necessary for version one of the vehicle. And with Model 3 we're being incredibly rigorous about ensuring that we don't have anything that isn't really necessary to make a very compelling version one of the car. We also have a much tighter feedback loop between design engineering, manufacturing engineering, and production. And so no element of Model 3 can be approved unless manufacturing has said that this is easy to manufacture and that the risk associated with manufacturing it is low. There are many ways to skin a cat, and it's remarkable how you can achieve a single objective with a hugely varying degree of difficulty. You can sort of take the analogy and say, if you wanted to kill a fly, you can kill a fly with a thermonuclear weapon, you can with a Moab, with a cruise missile, with a machine gun, or a fly swatter. So the end result is the same, but the difficulty is considerably more significant from one to the other and the collateral damage is considerably more significant. So having production be really fundamental to the design of the Model 3 I think is very important and then making sure we're not adding extraneous features to the 3 that aren't necessary to achieve the production volume is also extremely important. At the risk of this being misinterpreted, and probably there will be some number of articles that do, I think it's worth explaining sort of how manufacturing a complex object with several thousand unique components actually works. And what date's relevant and – in order to achieve volume production of a new car with several thousand unique items, you actually have to set a target date internally and with suppliers that is quite aggressive. And that is a date that has to be taken seriously. So like the date, because I'm sure this will leak it's hard to keep a secret, really. The date we are setting with suppliers to get to a volume production capability with the Model 3 is July 1 next year. Now, will we actually be able to achieve volume production on July 1 next year? Of course, not. The reason is that even if 99% of the internally produced items and supplier items are available on July 1, we still cannot produce the car because you cannot produce a car that is missing 1% of its component. Nonetheless, we need to both internally and with suppliers take that date seriously, and there needs to be some penalties for anyone internally or externally who does not meet that timeframe. This has to be the case, because there's just no way that you have several thousand components, all of whom make it on a particular date. So the reality is that the volume production will then be some number of months later as we solve the supply chain and internal production issues. But it is a bit of a confusing thing, and it does create some churn, because people are like, well, what's the real date? It's like, you have to take the July 1 date seriously in order for some date a few months later or some number of months later to actually be the real date. So, yeah, that's actually how it has to work. So in order for us to be confident of achieving volume production of Model 3 by late 2017, we actually have to set a date of mid-2017 and really hold people's feet to the fire internally and externally to achieve an actual volume production date of late 2017. So as a rough guess, I would say we would aim to produce 100,000 to 200,000 Model 3s in the second half of next year. That's my expectation right now. Yeah, so that's the thing. Now what I would say to anyone that is thinking about ordering a Model 3, now is a good time to actually place your reservation or place the order, because you don't have to worry about placing your order and receiving it five years from now. If you place your order now, there's a high probability you will actually receive your car in 2018. So I'd really recommend that anyone who wants to receive their car in 2018 place their order very soon.
James J. Albertine, Jr. - Stifel, Nicolaus & Co., Inc.:
Elon, thank you. And if I may as a follow up, can you give us some reference as to – again, most generously you would think if you said fourth quarter of 2017, so six months at its most generous calculation, how did that compare with the volume production agreed date for the Model X just as an example? And then how did this flow with your cash needs as you've articulated? It seems you've walked back a little bit from the prior quarter's discussion around cash flow, positive and no need for Capital Market's raise. It seems like there may be a need here, but if you could just articulate how the two fit together, that'd be helpful, thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
It's always tempting for people to reason by analogy instead of first principles. And that would be the mistake of assuming that anything to do with the X production has bearing on Model 3. They are very different programs with completely different approaches. So I would not try to extrapolate from that any more than it would've made sense to extrapolate from the Roadster that when we were making 600 cars a year to 20,000 cars a year with the Model S. So in the Roadster case we went from making 600 cars a year in 2010 where Lotus made the body and chassis, we made the powertrain and we did final assembly. It was a far simpler car than the Model S. We tell people we're going to do 20,000, get to around 20,000 cars a year with the Model S despite it being a vastly more complicated car and a car where we made the whole car and not just the powertrain. If you were to extrapolate from the Roadster experience, you would be completely wrong about the Model S outcome, and many people were. That's why I would say X is not relevant. As far as the increased capital raise, well, obviously if you double your plan volume, you can't expect the capital to stay the same. I think our capital efficiency will actually improve on a per-car basis, but obviously it can't stay the same.
James J. Albertine, Jr. - Stifel, Nicolaus & Co., Inc.:
Thank you so much.
Operator:
Thank you.
Jeff Evanson - Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Operator, let's go to the next question.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Colin Langan of UBS.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Oh, great. Thanks for taking my question. Just a kind of follow up, you've had issues with the X. There's management changes. What gives you the confidence that the 500,000 – that's a pretty amazing jump into next year? What kind of gives that conviction that that's going to be possible by 2020?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
You mean by 2018?
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Yeah, 2018. Yeah.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah, well, first of all, I think we've got an excellent team at Tesla in production, and we're adding world-class aces in production with each passing week. It is a huge advantage to have the most – I mean, I think it's fair to say it's probably the most compelling product program in the world with the Model 3. I'm not sure what would be more compelling. I think there's a good argument that Model 3 is the most compelling program on earth from a manufacturing standpoint. So our ability to recruit top manufacturing talent to the most compelling product on earth is very strong. We find the response to be extremely good when we call people up. So based on the rate at which we're adding world-class manufacturing expertise and some of the things that I know we're going to announce in the future, I feel highly confident that the Model 3 is going to be well executed as a program and – yes, you want to add something, J.B.?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
Yeah, if I might just add, I mean, you mentioned this briefly before, but the design of the vehicle lends itself to high-volume production very efficiently. And I think...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
That's really...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Designed for manufacturing.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
Absolutely. And that's something that we're doing even today. Those designs are firming up. So this is something happening far, far ahead of time. And the second point would be the quality and the motivation of the suppliers involved in the program is...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
Best ever.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Massively increased. Yeah. I mean, every supplier wants to be in this program.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Got it. And if I could just ask a follow-up. I mean, obviously cost is going to be an important factor when 3 launches. I think you've indicated that your battery cost with PACCAR now under $190 per kilowatt hour. How do you think that compares to the industry? Where do you think it'll be by the time the Model 3 is launching, since that launch is being pulled forward?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah. We're trying to comment on individual component costs, and that's fairly proprietary. It's kind of like giving away our playbook. But I think it's pretty obvious that we will exceed anyone else in the world in scale economies with the Gigafactory, and we're very confident in Panasonic's ability to execute on that front. So I just don't know anyone who in terms of intrinsic cost is going to be close to what the Gigafactory can produce on a cost per kilowatt hour basis.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
And any color when you think about the $190 per kilowatt hour, how much like a CAGR of decline until the Gigafactory is open, another 30% once that's on line?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah, next question.
Colin Michael Langan - UBS Securities LLC:
Thank you very much.
Jeff Evanson - Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
We will go to the next question, then. Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Colin Rusch of Oppenheimer.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Thanks so much. As you look at this accelerated plan for production, what can we expect on OpEx spending to support all of those cars coming out a lot faster than you previously expected?
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah, this is Jason. I think when we updated our guidance on OpEx for the year a little bit in the letter, we talked about 20% last year and moving that range to 20% to 25% for 2016, so there's obviously going to need to be more OpEx at this. However, at the same time, you see how we improved quarter-over-quarter in terms of OpEx. We were down $12 million from Q4, down 3%, so there's a renewed focus in the halls here at Tesla. I'm making sure that we are managing costs extremely effectively. And all of our employees get that and are contributing to that.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah, I mean, I think our sort of operating leverage means sort of fixed cost relative to our variable cost is going to improve dramatically as you get volume up.
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah, absolutely. We talked a little bit about this on the call last quarter. The potential for operating leverage is massive with production scaling.
Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Great. And then, Elon, what do you need to see to move your desk out of the factory? It's kind of a dramatic thing to talk about having your factory in your sleeping bag there, so obviously there are some things you're concerned about but what are you going to want to see to go back to a different location?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah. I mean, my desk has frequently been in the factory. This is not some new thing. On the Model S ramp, my desk was also in the middle of the factory at the start of the body line for a year. So I move my desk around to wherever the most important place is for the company. And then I sort of maintain a desk there over time to sort of come and check in on things. But I mean, I suspect probably by the end of this quarter, most of my time will not be spent on the factory floor.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Pat Archambault of Goldman Sachs.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
All right. Thank you. Good afternoon. So getting back to the capital requirement for the expanded Model 3 production, I appreciate the guidance that you've provided for this year from a CapEx perspective, that's helpful. But, I don't know, maybe this is a question for Jason. I mean, have you guys – can you share with us maybe what a total capital cost estimate might look like for the Model 3 program now that you've got a handle on what your volume is going to be or what you want to produce to?
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah, a couple of things there. So, one, we provided some bread crumbs, like we updated our CapEx guidance to – we had guided at $1.5 billion last quarter and we think it'll probably be 50% higher than that for 2016 into 2017.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
1.5?.
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
What?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
1.5?
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
1.5. And into 2017 we're not going to talk about that right now. But the other thing to pay attention to is our CapEx for this quarter was $216 million, which was a 47% decrease over Q4. A little bit of that is what we talked about last quarter were a lot of the big investments for Model X had already been made, but also we're just really focusing, as Elon has said, on capital efficiency and making sure that we are investing in the highest and best uses of cash. And I think those principles are what's going to guide the Model 3 program.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Yeah. I mean, look, that's a good starting point to work with for us. I mean, we appreciate the update for this year. Maybe the way to take the question is just to kind of understand when the peak spending periods are going to be. If you're launching through middle of next year, is it kind of a good idea to maybe extend the amount of capital you see spending kind of in the balance of three quarters through the second half of next year? And then, clearly with the launch, that tapers off. Is that a right way to think about it? And then second to that, I would probably ask the same question, just on the R&D front. When do those costs spike in the timeframe of that program?
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Sure. I think you are thinking about it the right way, the way you've laid it out, and you can kind of use Model X and Model S and the ramp of capital for those programs as a way to think about Model 3. On the R&D piece of it, that is a big driver behind our updating of our range to 20% to 25% OpEx in 2016. So we'll start to see a little bit of that in the second half of this year, and then certainly some more into the first half of 2017.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Got it. If I can squeeze in one last one, just on the sourcing. Is this changing your strategy of working with suppliers? I mean, you have done a lot in-house for all your products so far, but obviously this is a very different kind of volume number you're talking about. So are you thinking about changing the level of vertical integration, and how does that work into sort of an ongoing capital requirements for this program?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
No, I think we are actually going to increase the amount of vertical integration that we have. I think it's very important for us to have the ability to produce almost any part on the car at will because it alleviates risk with suppliers going back to like where if 2% of supplies is not ready we can't make the car. Having the ability internally to adapt and make that 2% of parts internally it really massively reduces risks associated with the production ramp. That, I think, is a very important thing. Now once, like if we get to steady state, and maybe we talk to a supplier and they can do a very efficient job of making that part, we have no problem transitioning it from in-source to outsource. Our goal is not to in-source for the sake of in-sourcing, but rather to in-source if we think that it has meaningful improvement on schedule, or cost or quality. And, I mean, one of the challenges we face is that for a lot of supply chains, they are impedance-matched to the timeframe of the big OEMs, and Tesla just moves a lot faster than the big OEMs. And so if the impedance matched to a typical sort of like a six-year development cycle, and we are on a two or three-year development cycle, it just doesn't connect properly. Some suppliers can handle that and some can't.
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Certainly seems to limit some of the people you could work with. Thanks for the clarification.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Brian Johnson with Barclays.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Yes. Good evening – afternoon. I just want to talk a little bit about maybe some of the milestones that you see, in terms of this accelerated development and launch of the scale up of the Model 3. First, it looked like in the proxy that the alpha prototype was completed as of when it was filed a few weeks ago. So a few questions. One, when do you kind of expect the beta prototype to be achieved? When do you think you will have firm specs for both your internal parts operations and for your external suppliers? And then in terms of the capital, do you see – two other questions kind of – when would you see raising capital, if at all, to meet this? And then, finally, given the volume of trade-off decisions you're talking about making between manufacturing, design, engineering, do you see any role for a COO type similar to what you have at SpaceX to accomplish this timeline?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Okay. That's like 17 questions in just one.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
You can send us the project plan.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Well, from an engineering standpoint, we are already almost complete with the design of Model 3. And in fact, the prototype that was driving at the [Motor Event] at the end of March was actually using the production drivetrain. So I think we feel pretty good about engineering completion of the last items probably within six to eight weeks, thereabouts. And so we're sort of completing the final release for tooling no later than the end of June. That sort of leaves roughly nine months for the tools you manufacture, which I think is an achievable timeframe. [Get] some suppliers, but it's an achievable timeframe. If you can have – you can create a human baby in nine months, you can pretty much make a tool in nine months. So that's our expectation. So then we want to have parts of production tooling starting in April next year. Still we've got three months of validation for a normal start of volume production in July. Again, it's a nominal start, and it's a date that we internally take seriously and that suppliers need to take seriously. But it is one where inevitably there will be some small number of items that cause slippage such that the actual date of reaching volume production is some number of months after that. This is simply in the nature of things. It's unavoidable. And so that's – and if you could tell me what those parts would be, we would be able to take action now. It's easiest what these things are in hindsight but not in advance. And sometimes there are things you don't expect to be a problem. So Tesla is a large, complex business. I don't want to comment on too specifically on Senior Exec hires.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. And, I guess, does this imply similar accelerated schedule for the Gigafactory, which always seemed tied to the 2020 0.5 million unit goal?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
It does. J.B., do you have anything to that?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
We've – I mean, as we've discussed previously, this is a small part of why the Gigafactory was – we accelerated some of our plans there. And we're still on track to have first cell production starting at the end of this year so that we'll be able to ramp up to match the Model 3 schedule as well.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yes. Again, I sort of want to emphasize some comments that I made earlier in the earnings call, which is Tesla is really hell-bent on being the world's best at manufacturing. Like this is a big deal. And I think it's the right thing to do because what we're trying to do is get as many electric cars on the road as possible. And what's the limiting factor? Well, it's production. Like how can we scale and scale efficiently? And so we need to get to – we need to figure out how to be the world's best manufacturing and that's what we're going to be hell-bent on doing.
Brian A. Johnson - Barclays Capital, Inc.:
Okay. Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Adam Jonas of Morgan Stanley.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Hey, Elon. So on our math, your combined fleet of Model S and X are driving more than 3 million miles a day. So in just one day, your cars do about 2x the distance that Google's done in the entire history of their self-driving car project. Now while your cars aren't exactly sensor-encrusted Christmas trees with tens of thousands of dollars of equipment like a retrofitted Google car, it's still a lot of miles. And I'm just wondering if you can explain to the investment community what kind of advantage this gives Tesla in the race for sustainable transport an accident-free driving in some commercial financial terms, if you could. Thanks. Or even engineering terms.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Well, I mean, I think you've pretty much asked the question and then answered it. Data is everything really when you're trying to solve the autonomous transport problem. And having millions of miles per day of data accumulating and then as the fleet grows that grows proportionate to the fleet is incredibly helpful. I mean, I think really, and particularly as we go to, say, kind of in the long term kind of fully autonomous driving, which I think is going to, I mean, that's going to require quite a lot of regulatory oversight, and I think in order for regulators to be comfortable approving that they are going to want to see a very large amount of data, I mean, maybe billions of miles showing that the car is unequivocally safer in autonomous mode compared to manual mode in a wide range of circumstances in countries all around the world with different rules of the road and ways of behavior. And it'll have to be something statistically significant like billions of miles.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Okay. Well, that actually, Elon, leads to my follow-up. Which is, once high volumes of statistical data for your autonomous miles are collected and analyzed, I can't help but get out of my mind – I have this image of you and some CEOs of other auto companies and CEOs of other software and tech hardware firms testifying in Congress about the urgent need to replace these dangerous purely human-driven cars on the road with available affordable and proven, even L2-L3 technology or semi-autonomous that's ready for introduction to dramatically improve the epidemic of traffic fatalities as like a national public health and safety priority. Am I crazy, Elon, about kind of that type of – that role for people in your position to play armed with the data empirically? And if I'm not crazy, then how soon do you think it would take for tech firms like you to have a sufficient quantity and quality of data to be able to make such a scientifically proven case? Thanks.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Well, I already feel like – I mean, Tesla will argue for autonomous driving, but we're not going to argue against manual driving. And I believe people should have the freedom to choose to do what they want to do. And, yes, sometimes those things are dangerous but freedom is important. And if people want to drive, even if it's dangerous, they should be allowed to drive in my view. But then the autonomous safety systems should be in there such that even if you're in manual mode, the car will still aid you in avoiding an accident.
Adam Michael Jonas - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC:
Okay. Great. Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Joe Spak with RBC Capital Markets.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Thanks. Good afternoon, everyone. Also wanted to focus on the adjusting the Gigafactory plans. I believe originally you indicated about 15 gigawatt hours per year were earmarked for energy. And with Model 3 demand clearly robust and likely more robust than you originally planned, I'm wondering if that moved some of those Tesla Energy ambitions to the back burner? Does it accelerate the need for a second Gigafactory? Or maybe perhaps you found a way to squeeze more out of the existing one?
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
Well, I think the simplest answer is that we have a lot more capacity at that site than the initial 35 and 15 gigawatt hours that we discussed. That's part of why we've so aggressively made sure that we have extra land and extra space around the site so that we can continue to expand. And we won't need to rob from Tesla Energy plans in order to meet the Model 3 schedule. We definitely have a way to solve both.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
And are you willing to provide an update to those initial targets?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Not yet. Maybe in one or two earnings calls from now I think we'll be able to shed more light on that. But, yeah, as JB was saying, we're going to make sure Tesla Energy is not constrained by vehicle needs. And I think the growth rate of Tesla Energy is on a percentage basis only going to be far greater than the growth rate in cars.
Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets LLC:
Okay. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Ryan Brinkman of JPMorgan.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Great. Thanks for taking my question. We can all now see with the Model 3 preorders that you are entirely correct that there is tons of demand for the car just like you've been saying all along. So I think about a month ago when you started tweeting those preorders, right, the investor and part supplier confidence in your ability to ramp to 0.5 million units rightfully skyrocketed. With that said, from a supply perspective, you have sometimes had difficulty in achieving delivery targets because of issues and smoothly increasing capacity and assembly and you've shown a strong preference for emphasizing quality over quantity. So is there anything that's changed on the supply side of the equation that should also be confidence-instilling? Maybe, I don't know, lessons learned from the launch of X or some other factor that should give confidence in your ability to be at a 200,000 unit to 400,000 unit annual run rate of Model 3 production approximately 14 months from now?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah, again, I want to emphasize that the July 1 date is not a date that will actually be met. It's an impossible date. However, it's a date we need to hold ourselves to internally and we need to hold suppliers to. But it is an impossible date because there are 6,000, 7,000 unique components in the Model 3 and that would assume that all of them arrive on time. And just like a college term paper, there are always late term papers. But you still have to have a deadline, and it needs to be real, and one with consequences if the deadline is not met. But it absolutely will not – the probability of it is occurring is incredibly low of actually achieving it on July 1 but nonetheless, it's a date we have to take seriously. I explained that with some risk of this being misinterpreted but hopefully you'll appreciate that I am trying to explain how it needs to work and kind of has to work that way. There's no other way to do it. And the things that help us get there are designing Model 3 for manufacturing with engineering, manufacturing engineering and production and supply chain, all in a very closed loop and making sure that we design the car to easy to make, that we iterate with suppliers and ask them if we're giving them a design that's easy to make or one that's hard to make, or how do we make it, how do we reduce risk and improve it and make it easier to build? This is really fundamentally different from S and X. The S was the first car we really designed ourselves, and it was all about just trying to make the car work in the first place. X was basically built off of the S platform, but then even more complicated, so unfortunately even harder to make. The Model 3 is the first car Tesla is creating that is designed to be easy to make. This is really a fundamental difference. And then I mentioned also increasing the scope of our in-house abilities so that if there is a supplier that is unable to deliver on time, we can scramble fast and produce that component in house.
Ryan Brinkman - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay. That's helpful. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from John Murphy with Bank of America.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Good afternoon. Just a first question on the capital needs. I mean, it looks like there's a little over $400 million left on the ABL, and given the preorders or the reservations for the Model 3, it seems like you'll have at least another $400 million flowing in in the second quarter. So just curious, I mean as you look at that kind of cash potential or liquidity and potential inflow, do you really think you need to do a capital raise this year, or could you get by with those sources of cash?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Well, I don't think we want to rely too much on customer reservation money as a source of capital. Maybe there is a buffer or something, but it's not as a primary source of capital. So yeah, I mean, I think it's going to make sense for us to raise some amount of money, some combination of equity and debt and make sure the company has a good buffer of cash on hand. I think it's important for de-risking the company.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay. And then...
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
John...
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Yeah.
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
This is Jason. The only thing I'd add to that is we did draw $430 million on the ABL this quarter. A lot of that was we had a large amount of cash in transit at the end of the quarter. Our deliveries were a little bit back-end loaded. And as those cars were delivered in early April, we were able to pay a significant portion of that back.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah. And I think most people are familiar with asset-backed line, but it's important to say like why is that different from like general debt. Unlike other automotive companies, Tesla doesn't ship to dealers. We ship to customers. So we build the cars to order, the car is complete, and it's going to a known customer. So really the only risk associated with that is if like the ship sinks or something or the truck that's carrying the cars crashes. But the ABL is – the asset-backed line is basically finished goods in transit to known customers. It's not like general corporate debt. It's, I think more appropriately thought of as, a slight increase in cost of goods sold.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay. That's helpful. And then if I could just ask one follow-up from another question is, I mean, as you look at the ramp with suppliers, is there any recourse to suppliers that don't meet sort of that start of production next year or any point of the production schedule? Or is it really just you cancel the business and move on to another supplier?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah. So we'll be asking for some commitments from suppliers to meet that timeframe and I'm meeting personally with the team from that supplier, who is going to execute on the task, so that I have not just the commitment of the CEO or general manager of that supplier, but the actual team that will execute on the product, and we want to confirm that we feel confident in the actual team. And basically what we're asking for are the A team from the A supplier and a commitment from that A team that they intend to work harder than they ever have on any other program. And if they are willing to do that, then we'll work together, otherwise not.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
And recourse if they miss targets?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yes. So along the way, we will be assessing progress and our confidence level that suppliers will meet the July 1 target. If it looks like they will not, we'll have a conversation with them. If our comfort level drops below a certain level, they will not be a supplier to Tesla.
John J. Murphy - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Okay, great. Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Rod Lache with Deutsche Bank.
Rod A. Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Hi, everybody. A couple of questions. One, distribution and franchise laws in the U.S. have always seemed like they're an issue that they're going to need to be dealt with at some point. Does this trajectory force the issue or is this something that you can accommodate even with the distribution constraints?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah, first of all, it's worth emphasizing that the whole dealership thing only applies in the U.S. We don't encounter that issue anywhere else in the world. And what's happening is that dealers are using kind of vestigial legislation that was originally put in for a just purpose, which is to protect them from predatory practices from the franchisor, and then using it for an unjust purpose, which is to prevent direct distribution. We believe that in the long term justice will prevail.
Rod A. Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. But is there a view that you can actually achieve this even under the constraints that exist today, or is that something that you do need to address in order to achieve this plan?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
We believe that that is not a constraint on our ability to achieve the plan.
Rod A. Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay. And second question is, I'm assuming that concurrently with this plan there is kind of a longer term plan for growth and that there is going to be a Fremont number two, and I think you've alluded to further expansion of Gigafactory. Can you just give us a sense of what you're aspiring to in terms of the trajectory by the end of the decade, as you've done before? And Jason, I know you didn't want to get into details on project spending, but it would be helpful just to pass along some thoughts on what needs to go into the company in terms of investment, in order to get that sort of thing out. Is it reasonable to assume that the new level of spending that we're seeing right now is something that we should assume as being a sustained level going forward?
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Sure. On that, so yeah, at least I don't want to go into the details of what we think the total capital cost is going to be for the Model 3 program, but certainly as we continue to ramp there's going to be more capital requirements of the company. That's just a fact. And ideally, I'd like to fund as much of that as possible with cash flow from operations. So that is really the focus that we have in the short term.
Rod A. Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Is there a...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
It's better to say like our 2020 target for volume is closer to maybe close to 1 million vehicles in 2020 or something like that.
Rod A. Lache - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Okay, great. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Charlie Anderson with Dougherty.
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Yeah, thanks for taking my question. I had just a two-parter on the Model 3 reservation holders. I imagine for many of them this was their first interaction with Tesla and maybe the first time they went to a store. And I wonder as you've looked at that base if there is any potential to upsell to a S or X in the interim while they wait for their car, if you have any programs planned to address that. And then secondarily, I was curious if you have any color on sort of the geographic split of the reservation holders. Thanks.
Jonathan McNeill - President-Global Sales & Service, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Yeah. So this is Jon. In terms of your first question on whether or not the reservation orders, this was their first interaction with Tesla, just about 93% of the reservation holders, this is their first interaction with Tesla. So it's a super, super majority of a new client base or a customer base for Tesla and it's exciting. It was exciting when we walked the lines, there were people waiting in line at the stores and they were excited to become a part of the Tesla community and family. And the demographics of the owners, we're not going to say much about that, but they are a bit different, as you can imagine, than the Model S and Model X owners today. And it presents an exciting new market for Tesla as well. And it should be noted that these folks are not interested just only in Tesla Motors, but also Tesla Energy, because the price point of the Tesla Powerwall is an accessible price point for many of these folks and so they're expressing interest in both. In terms of S and X as a bridge to Model 3, we are talking through and thinking through that. Just as Elon mentioned earlier, the quickest path to receiving a Model 3 is being a Tesla owner. We've agreed that Tesla owners are receiving priority in terms of production, and so you can run the math I just mentioned. If 93% are new to Tesla, 7% of the reservation holders are Tesla owners. And the fastest way to get production vehicle even in 2017 is through Tesla ownership and so we're finding that there's a good conversion rate of folks that are coming in to test drive an S or an X who are Model 3 reservation-holders and are motivated to be Tesla owners now so that they can receive their Model 3 earlier.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah, actually – one point worth mentioning is that we're fairly worried about what would happen with the Model 3 announcement. Would it cause some big drop in, say, Model S sales? It seems to have had the opposite effect. It seems as though S demand has increased. It has...
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
It has increased.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
It has increased.
Jason Wheeler - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah. I think you saw the estimated number in the first quarter is 45% up year-over-year and that demand continues.
Charlie Lowell Anderson - Dougherty & Co. LLC:
Thanks so much.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yes.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Emmanuel Rosner of CLSA.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
Hi. Good afternoon. I wanted to ask you guys about any early thoughts on need for manufacturing expansion. Obviously, if you are delivering 500,000 units by 2018, I think that's the original capacity of the Fremont plant. So do you need to start thinking about an additional plant? And in that context, any thoughts on global expansion you were mentioning? Obviously, very strong increase in Model S orders in Asia, for example. Anything you could share with us at this point?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah. I mean, I'd say our plans for international expansion and establishment of new plants are sort of speculative. We haven't made any firm decision. But I mean, some of the things are just sort of common sense that manufacturing cars in California and then shipping them all around the world is not a very efficient thing to do, particularly as you go to more affordable vehicles. So, at some point, it's going to make sense to have a plant in Europe and a plant in China, and probably plants in other parts of the world. So that's kind of natural thing you'd expect. It's like it wouldn't make sense to ship cars from California to Europe or California to Asia.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
In those volumes.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
In those volumes. It's just not an efficient way to go. And particularly as we saturate on Fremont volume in terms of satisfying demand in North America, I think just to satisfy demand in North America for our future product lineup, we're going to need more than one plant in North America just to satisfy North American demand.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
Right. So when we think about these extra capital needs that you're sort of alluding to, in addition to just the – obviously, the cost of the Model 3 development, are you also contemplating as part of that to raise the money for an extra factory to the extent that just beyond 2018 you would already need some extra capacity?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
I don't think we'll be raising money for new factories before we're at volume production of the Model 3. And as Jason was saying earlier, we'll really try to find as much of this as possible from operating cash flow.
Emmanuel Rosner - CLSA Americas LLC:
Got it. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Ben Kallo with Robert Baird.
Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Hey. Thanks a lot. I have 18 questions. The first one I have, Model X production. Where are we at right there? Because we've had all this Consumer Reports issues, I think they're a little backdated, but can you talk to us about the state production of that? Number two. On the Gigafactory, the battery size with Model 3, I think everyone is dividing by 80 kilowatt hours or 75 kilowatt hours to the number of cars. And how do we think about actually the Model 3 battery size and what the Gigafactory can support? And then the third question is why is Bob Lutz and Jim Chanos, they keep on saying such negative things about you guys? What do you have to do to get the dissenters to actually believe in Tesla a little bit? Thank you.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah. So, I mean, I feel confident that we're going to hit the 2,000 vehicle a week target by the end of this quarter, of which on the order of 40% are X. I'm just telling you that's our internal plan and what we expect to meet. There's no question the X is a very difficult car to manufacture. I think it's unquestionably actually the most difficult car to manufacture in the world, and Bob Lutz would agree with that. I think he said something to the effect that he thought it wasn't manufacturable or something like that. I mean, it's certainly manufacturable. It's just a hard thing to go for. So, I mean, we have some internal milestones that I think we've achieved thus far that I'm pretty excited about. Friday at 3 a.m. we achieved our first flawless production of the Model X, where we went through the whole production process and had zero issues. That was a great milestone. Still celebrating with the 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. Friday. It was great. And now we are starting to get several in a row that are flawless and so it's really gaining momentum very quickly. We feel pretty good about the trajectory of S and X. As for convincing all the naysayers, I think that will basically be never. and I would just say like what I find ironic about a lot of the naysayers is that they – the very same people will transition from saying it was impossible to saying it was obvious. I am like, wait a second. Was it obvious or impossible? It can't be both.
Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Got it. And Model 3 battery. We are all analysts here, we stir down our straw dividing by 75 kilowatt hours. Is that the right thing to do with the Model 3 or should we have a lower number like 40 kilowatts or 45 kilowatts? And then you've got the guy with the Volt making that car saying that it's going to be ahead of you guys and then sell for cheaper than you. So how do I think about GM being able to make a car cheaper than you versus making a margin on a Tesla with a lower battery cost? Does that make sense?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah. I mean, we aren't going to get into real specifics on battery pack size, but I think it's fair to say that the average battery pack size for the 3 will be less than 75 kilowatt hours. That's...
Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
I'm sorry, what was that?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
The average energy content of a 3 pack is certainly going to be less than 75 kilowatt. It doesn't clearly need to be anywhere near 75 kilowatt to achieve the range of 215 miles. But we don't want to get into the nitty-gritty. It's probably unwise. Yeah.
Jeffrey B. Straubel - Chief Technology Officer:
Yeah. And, I mean, I don't think it's probably – you probably don't need to fixate on the 35 gigawatt hours. We're planning the Gigafactory to meet the production needs of the energy that we know the cars will need. So there's not a problem in scaling that as we need to. So, obviously, internally we know the math and we know what we need to do and we're on track to do it.
Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Yeah. I guess, my 18th question is, so I'm not a car guy, but so I have a – you guys have 40,000 units of the Model 3 in 2017. And from your commentary, it seems like I need to raise my numbers. But how do I think about that ramp up from 0 to 500,000 over, let's push it from 2018 on? Does it go from 0 to 500,000 over two years? Or one year? Or how do we think about that?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Well, I mean, obviously if we're saying that Tesla will have total vehicle production of on the order of 500,000 cars in 2018, it would have to be more than sort of two years to get there. So, now, just sort of another maybe better education about production ramps is production ramps look like an S-curve. It is extremely difficult to predict with precision the early part of the S-curve. So because in the early part of the S-curve, you have, it sort of starts off very slow and then it increases exponentially, it moves to a linear, and then moves to a logarithmic. So, really, it's very difficult to predict exactly what the shape of that S-curve is, and that's where things get tricky because you end up putting quarterly results kind of bracketing somewhere on that S-curve, and depending upon where you are on that S-curve, it can actually look like a big difference. But actually it could be a shift of a few weeks because of the exponential nature of the beginning of the S-curve.
Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
And my 19th question, can you make 50% gross margin on it? Or 20% gross margin? Or how do you think about margin? Because people think you can't make it profitably...?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah. I mean, we're highly confident that it can be made profitably and the design manufacturing and economies of scale are really the keys to achieving that outcome. Yeah, I think GM is not aiming for anything near the volumes that we are, and so they're – I mean despite being a big company, their economies of scale are going to be driven by whatever elements are unique in their EV. And we know for a fact that they will not get the economies of scales that we will be at for Model 3.
Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Great. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Dana Hull with Bloomberg News.
Dana Hull - Bloomberg:
Yeah, hi. What is the mix in 2018 of the 500,000 cars? I mean, it's combined S, X and 3. Should we think of it as like 300,000 3? Or I mean what's the kind of the mix of those 3 vehicles?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Well, I mean I don't think we've got like an amazing crystal ball to figure out exactly what it's going to be. But I mean I feel confident about the top line number, but the mix internally is – I mean it's difficult to figure that out. I mean, yeah, but maybe it's something like 100,000 to 150,000 S and X, and then 300,000 to 400,000 of 3. But this is, I don't know. It's really hard to say.
Dana Hull - Bloomberg:
Hard to say. Okay. And then as you try to attract top manufacturing talent as you begin to ramp, have you given any thought to trying to hire a COO? I mean, I'm just thinking about your personal life, between Tesla and SpaceX, and sleeping in a sleeping bag and working 90 hours a week between two companies. SpaceX has a great COO and has had one since the company, for years, but Tesla never has.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
I mean, the sort of scope of Tesla's activity is broader than SpaceX, and SpaceX is more of a pure technology company, and does not have the sort of sales service and kind of fleet management and customer financing and all that sort of stuff that Tesla has. Obviously, John's, John McNeill is taking that, has that role at Tesla, and then my focus is primarily on technology, design and manufacturing. So – but I think you certainly can expect that there will be announcements in the fairly near future about some great executives joining the ranks.
Dana Hull - Bloomberg:
Okay. Great. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Phil LeBeau of CNBC.
Phil LeBeau - CNBC, Inc.:
Hi, everyone. I have a question. It was about 10 minutes ago, you made a reference to 1 million vehicles in 2020. Is that a production target, a production goal, or hypothetical? I'm just looking for some clarification there.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
I mean, that's my best guess. Over a half million in 2018, and then roughly 50%ish growth from there, then it's probably around 1 million in 2020.
Phil LeBeau - CNBC, Inc.:
And do you not have an estimate as to how many production plants you will need in order to make that happen?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Well, I think it is actually feasible, maybe not advisable, but feasible to do it with just Fremont and the Gigafactory. We actually believe that Fremont and the Gigafactory could scale to a million vehicles. Whether that's actually wise is a separate question, and as I said earlier, it's going to make sense to do localized production at least on a continent basis. Otherwise your logistics costs end up being quite extreme. Your logistics cost start becoming a bigger and bigger percentage of total vehicle cost. I mean that's really why manufacturers build their cars for a local market. They'll build cars for a market in that market because logistics costs associated with shipping one-and-a-half to two ton vehicle are massively greater than, say, shipping a little consumer electronics device.
Phil LeBeau - CNBC, Inc.:
Great. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Alex Sage of Reuters.
Alexandria Sage - Thomson Reuters Corporation:
Hi. Can you hear me? Elon, you say that you're calling out to the best minds of manufacturing to join Tesla, but at the same time, Google and Apple are giving out the same haul. I guess I would wonder what you would say to these people to have them join Tesla over these other companies. The second question is whether you had any takeaways in terms of your suppliers, in terms of Hoerbiger experience, and how you can hold these suppliers' feet to the fire on some of these more complicated tasks that they are asked to fulfill?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Yeah. I mean, in response to your first question, I'm not – I mean, for sure, you'll appreciate. I mean, Apple and Google do not manufacture things themselves.
Alexandria Sage - Thomson Reuters Corporation:
Right. But they are hiring manufacturing people.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
To do what?
Alexandria Sage - Thomson Reuters Corporation:
Direct. It's a good question, but they are hiring manufacturing people, people with manufacturing experience.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Okay. Well, Tesla actually – Tesla believes strongly in making things. They do not. That's fine, it's a philosophical difference. We believe that manufacturing technology is itself subject to a tremendous amount of innovation, and in fact we believe that there is more potential for innovation in manufacturing then there is in the design of a car by a long shot. And so, now, this is just a philosophical difference. Perhaps we are wrong. But, in fact, we believe in manufacturing, and we believe that a company that values manufacturing as highly as we do is going to attract the best minds in manufacturing.
Alexandria Sage - Thomson Reuters Corporation:
Okay.
Jeff Evanson - Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Okay. So I think that's all the time we have.
Alexandria Sage - Thomson Reuters Corporation:
But the supplier question?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
I don't understand who you are referring to.
Alexandria Sage - Thomson Reuters Corporation:
Hoerbiger?
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
Hoerbiger? I am not familiar with that name.
Alexandria Sage - Thomson Reuters Corporation:
It's the original...
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
We are certainly going to do our best to ensure that we have high confidence in the suppliers on the Model 3 program. Those that didn't perform very well on say prior programs are unlikely to be selected for the Model 3 program.
Jeff Evanson - Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
Okay?
Operator:
At this time, I would like to turn it back over to Mr. Jeff Evanson for any closing remarks.
Jeff Evanson - Investor Relations, Tesla Motors, Inc.:
All right. Thank you, everyone, for joining us today. We will talk to you in a quarter. Bye-bye.
Elon Reeve Musk - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer:
All right. Thank you.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference. You may now all disconnect, and have a wonderful day.
Executives:
Aaron Chew - VP of Investor Relations Lyndon Rive - Chief Executive Officer Peter Rive - Chief Technology Officer Tanguy Serra - President and Chief Financial Officer
Analysts:
Patrick Jobin - Credit Suisse Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank Philip Shen - Roth Capital Krish Sankar - Bank of America-Merrill Lynch Colin Rusch - Oppenheimer & Company Hugh Wynne - Bernstein Brian Lee - Goldman Sachs Michael Morosi - Avondale Partners Pavel Molchanov - Raymond James Edwin Mok - Needham & Company Sven Eenmaa - Stifel Gordon Johnson - Axiom Capital Jeff Osborne - Cowen and Company
Operator:
Greetings and welcome to the SolarCity Fourth Quarter 2015 Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. A question-and-answer session will follow the formal presentation. [Operator Instructions] I will now turn the conference over to your host Aaron Chew, VP of Investor Relations. Thank you. You may begin.
Aaron Chew:
Thank you and good afternoon to all of those joining us today for SolarCity's fourth quarter 2015 earnings conference call. Leading the presentation today will be a discussion from our Chief Executive Officer, Lyndon Rive, as well as our Chief Technology Officer, Peter Rive, and our President and Chief Financial Officer, Tanguy Serra, after which point in time we will open up the call to questions. As a reminder, today's discussion will contain forward-looking statements that involve our views as of today based on information currently available to us. Forward-looking statements should not be considered as guarantee of future performance or results and reflects information that may change over time. Please refer to SolarCity's quarterly shareholder letter issued today, and the slides accompanying this presentation, as well our periodic reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission for a discussion of forward-looking statements and the factors and risks that could cause our actual results to differ from these forward-looking statements. We do not undertake any obligation to publicly update or revise any forward-looking statement. In addition, during the course of this call, we'll use a number of specially defined terms relating to our business metrics and financial results, including non-GAAP financial metrics. We refer to the definitions of these terms and the required reconciliation between GAAP and non-GAAP financial metrics included in the shareholder letter issued today and the slides accompanying this presentation which are available on our Investor Relations website at investors.solarcity.com. With that finally behind us, I would like to introduce SolarCity's Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Lyndon Rive.
Lyndon Rive:
Thanks, Aaron. As the same format as last time, we are not going to go through the slides, the slides are on the website. Feel free to ask any questions at the end. Before we get into questions, I just have a few comments to make regarding 2017 –2015. Overall the year was a great year and we had 73% growth. We also reduced our cost to $2.71 a watt. We clearly now have the lowest cost in the industry. For the first time in the company's history, the asset financing that we get is higher than the actual cost of the developing end. So, intentionally the development cost is cash neutral and were developing this long return revenue. For the year, this is the most important metric, we created $740 million of value, which is [indiscernible] tax and debt. In total we have over $2 billion. And once again, on that $2 billion number that’s the recurrent revenue [without] [ph] subtracting all the O&M, all the fees, that's the net amount. For the guidance, we came in 8 megawatts short for Q4 at 272 megawatts. I'm disappointed in missing the guidance. This is primarily due to commercial delays and stopping installations in Nevada. As many of you know, the PUC decided to change net metering rates in Nevada, which forced us to stop installations. Our volume in Nevada is about 20 megawatts a quarter. Now homeowners in Nevada want solar, want the freedom to choose where their energy comes from and I think this is going to be overturned by the public through a referendum, a ballot referendum by the end-of-the-year. On a positive side regarding policy, the federal ITC’stax credit got extended for five years. This is a big one for the industry and expect to see good growth in 2017 and beyond. California, our largest market was also a very positive outcome. The outcome is well designed outcome by the PUC. It allows the industry to continue to grow. At the same time, prompting the industry to provide more grid related services to the grid. This will be things like, reactive power, voltage control. This will actually help us educate customers in higher load balance and [indiscernible] energy with peak loads. This design by the PUC is a great design, as it will allow the industry to install lots of rooftop solar, and at the same time providing a good stability to the grid. In December, I went to Paris for the climate talks and it was cleared by all the world leaders that we have to transform our energy infrastructure and the majority of this is going to move on to renewable energy, which will be solar. Overall, in terms of policy update the solar market looks very positive. For 2016, we expect to continue to grow at 40% and be cash flow positive in Q4. So, why don't we open up to your questions?
Operator:
Thank you. [Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Patrick Jobin from Credit Suisse.
Patrick Jobin:
Hi, thanks for taking the question. First question, just thinking about the volume miss in Q4 and more in the Q1 guide being about 18% year-over-year growth for Q1. I guess that includes the 15 megawatts of C&I slipping into Q1? It seems a little weaker than what we and I think the street was expecting. I guess what gives you confidence of a rebound in demand to hit that 40% for next year? That’s the first question. Thanks.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, a few things went into Q1. So we actually created a specific slide associated with this. If you go to slide 11, so Nevada had an impact. It was a little over 20 megawatts. We have the standard seasonality which is about 17%, if you look at our historic performance. We also are changing what we are doing with commercial. So this is a really key thing. As you install commercial, specifically ground mounts, once we're done with the installation there's a lag from installation complete to when the utility may do the interconnection upgrade. So, it is not a normal interconnection. There may be some electrical component that they have to upgrade. That electrical component can take six to nine months. And so what we are doing is we're shortening the time schedule, so we are delaying the installations, pushing it in closer to when their electric upgrade will be done, so that working capital of holding these assets will be reduced. So what you can expect in terms of our commercial installations, they are going to be backend loaded. A lot of the bookings are ground mounts in the East Coast. The other point is investment into sales and marketing. So in Q4, we were reducing the investment in sales and marketing. This is why our [COA] [ph] has come down. When we look at our portfolio, leads that come in, there is expensive leads and we have less expensive leads, and essentially we stopped buying expensive leads in anticipation that there was no extension of the ITC. Now of course with the ITC extension happening, we are now going to invest again to sales and marketing to make up that delta. But those are all the reasons why it is going from 272 to 180 in Q1.
Patrick Jobin:
Got it and then I guess my second question relates to capital. So with the potential, I guess market fears of increases in capital costs or fears of capital availability, I guess a two-part question. One, how durable are the sources of capital that underpin your growth forecast for 2016? Do you need equity capital to fund that growth? Then just broader, how do you think about taking projects on and what the minimum spread may be between formation returns and your cost of capital? Just how wide is that spread and do you think about the business in that way? Thanks.
Tanguy Serra:
Hey, thanks, Patrick. So, the multipart question as you said, if you look at our last year, it is easier to talk about last year. We cleared $2.73 per watt on all the watts that we deployed. That's cash that came into the company for each watt that we deployed. That's taking the cash in from the cash flow statement divided by the watts that we deployed. That's a true financed number that's coming in. That’s obviously about $1.70 of tax equity and $1 of debt, about 2.7. The debt as you know, the way we fund our business is, we originate these assets and then we put them into the aggregation facility, which are really long term maturities and don't have [indiscernible] repayments. Those feel pretty good. Then what we do is, we take the assets out of those aggregation facilities and either secure tie these assets or what we are doing right now, as we disclosed in the Analyst Day, is monetizing full value of these cash flows. These are the two things we are working on. Obviously, the SEC won't allow me talk about securitizations so we are not going to talk about it on this call. But the cash equity, we are positively surprised by the appetite in the market and I think there's been some press releases and research reports written about this asset class being generating significant appetite for not only us but for a number of solar players. We received multiple term sheets on that basis and we’re looking that through. That is a series of investors that are reasonably independent from day-to-day market movements. The other point, Patrick, I want to make which I think is really, really important which is, what we are really focused on is our cost structures. So our cost structure right now is at 2.7, and as you know panel prices and inverter prices in Q1 and Q2 are going to decline. So we're going see a decline in our cost and so what really matters is how much can you clear upfront to be able to finance that. And even if you assume higher cost, which we don't want, we will negotiate against. But even if you assume that higher cost, we're still clearing north of our costs, which is ultimately what matters here in this business to be cash flow positive.
Patrick Jobin:
And we should expect that to be positive into 2016, raising more asset financing in the cost structure?
Tanguy Serra:
Yes. Absolutely. Again, just look at 2015, it was 2.7 that we raised versus the cost of 2.7 going into 2016. We think our costs are going to continue decline, and we think that the 2.7 did not have any full monetization cash flows, it was just our debt and securitization. If we include [indiscernible] cash flow, that mix effect will drag that number up.
Patrick Jobin:
Thank you.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Vishal Shah from Deutsche Bank.
Vishal Shah:
Yes, hi. Thanks for taking my question. Can you talk about where you are with the securitization? I know you talked about doing one a quarter, how that market is looking, especially given the recent ABS market volatility. And also can you talk about your efforts in monetization, how should we should think about - what kind of assets you are looking at, how many megawatts are you looking to monetize those assets for? Thank you.
Tanguy Serra:
Sure, Vishal, I really apologize. The lawyers in the room are looking at me shaking there heads saying we just cannot talk about the securitization market right now. [Indiscernible]. I really apologize. I really would want to, but we can't. The only point I would make is if you look at our past track record on securitization it should actually be very good and we expect that track record to continue going forward. On the cash equity, look, obviously what we've done and I don't want to disclose too much here. But what we've done is - in the analyst presentation we laid out the full pro forma - the full actual cash flows that these assets generate on a unit basis. And the appetite that we are seeing in this market is for a diversified pool of assets, which includes a mix of states, totally typical of our portfolio, a mix of commercial, totally typical of our portfolio, and there's a real appetite for that exposure. And if you think about it, these are very, very high quality cash flows in US dollars. The energy bill of a homeowner or the energy bill of a very high quality commercial establishment so these are really, really high quality cash flows. We've got track record around [indiscernible], we've got track record on people moving and what happens there, we have track record around billing. We've got massive amounts of data from this company over last seven years on these assets. When we talk to investors who are looking for yield in US dollars, this is an asset class that really generates interest. We have seen there has been rumored or actual transactions in the space which we think are pretty [indiscernible]. The other thing I want to point to is the yieldcos, which is not perfectly comparable, never the less. These dividend yields are in the ballpark of what we talked about here.
Vishal Shah:
That's helpful. Can you just also maybe talk about timing of when you should be looking for monetization? It should be soon or maybe second half phenomenon. And also you talked about increasing your focus on the sales and marketing efforts. Are you still able to maintain your cash flow guidance for the end of this year that you outlined late last year? Thank you.
Tanguy Serra:
Yes. So the first part of the question is, these are super candidly, these are, you know how it is, which is when you're figuring out a new form of monetization here the last thing you want to put on timing pressure. That is not just good for anyone. So right now, these asset are in aggregation facilities that have long term maturities. So from a liquidity perspective there is no massive pressure to release these assets from there. As and when we like the pricing and we negotiate terms that we like and this is going to be a landmark deal for the industry, not just for us. We’ll let that happen. Again, I really don't want to put any timing pressure on the company by announcing something here. We received term sheets. We like what we are seeing. We are making progress but that's all I will commit to. To your second part the question, I think Lyndon answered upfront, which is the answer is yes, and we are going to stick to that.
Vishal Shah:
Thank you.
Tanguy Serra:
Sure. Thank you, Vishal.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Philip Shen of Roth Capital.
Philip Shen:
Hey, guys. Thanks for taking the questions.
Tanguy Serra:
Hi, Philip. How are you?
Philip Shen:
I wanted to walk through your sources and uses of funds for 2016. So if we resume you guidance of 1.25 gigs and [250 watt] [ph], we get to about $3.1 billion in 2016. I'm guessing so later requires another $160 million for a total of $3.3 billion. Does this total number sound right and is there anything we're missing?
Tanguy Serra:
Let me make sure that the, Lyndon do you want to talk about Silevo?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, Just a little update on Silevo. So the building should be completed at the end of this quarter probably early Q2. We'll then start moving in equipment. As some of the equipment has longer lead time than we originally expected and so that equipment is going to arriving around Q2, Q3 next year. Because of that it will actually – the effect of that then we can delay the purchasing of some of the other equipment and so a lot of the CapEx or probably about half the CapEx are actually moving to 2017.
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, so that’s key, right, which is a significant portion of this [indiscernible] CapEx, so we've already incurred and you've can see in our financials to build out Fremont, a portion of [indiscernible] CapEx for New York can actually get pushed back. So it’s like you know, really important to recognize that and keep that in your mind. The second point is, round numbers, your math feels right, and the way I think about it is tax equity, I don’t really talk about forecast, the lawyers in the room are not going to let me but if you look historically our cost are coming down, so our cost are 2.7 and they already continuing coming down in 2016. And if you look at what we received historically it’s 1.7 of tax equity and another $1 of debt. So if you assume that growth continues going forward and you assume some cash equity to the mix that’s how you get to your funding sources.
Lyndon Rive:
And with increased pricing.
Tanguy Serra:
And with increased pricing across the country. And the other thing to recognize Philip is that, we still have capacity available in our aggregation facilities. We have about $200 million and as you know, one you can upsize that and two, as you recycling away out of that aggregation and you're increasing the amount of capacity going over there. So the - your math is right, and we're highly, highly focused on making sure we have that. The other point I'd say is that the – no, we didn’t say the solar bonds which have September maturity. There is a agreement to roll those over and so push that out in these two years in terms of maturity, which allows us to not have maturity in 2016.
Philip Shen:
Great. One more if I may. You guys load the various adoption with solar and with no money down leasing model, their competitors – or competitors out there now with no money down and no payments for 12 months, can you talk about how these offerings by your competitors might be evolving and how they maybe impacting your ability to win customers?
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, that’s a new one, I haven’t seen the one actually.
Lyndon Rive:
We're not ready to do that. Let me just to be really, really clear we're not…
Philip Shen:
Thanks…
Tanguy Serra:
At least for that one, that offer was by Petersen Dean.
Philip Shen:
Okay. And so I have to investigate exactly what offers, there is always and it sounds too good to be true then there's probably a big catch. So what we'll what it is, how it out there actually of unit financing, the probably offering a low interest, no principal from some bank and then…
Lyndon Rive:
So you manifesting just off a lot.
Philip Shen:
Yes. So, we'll look at it. And we'll of course react to it, but we won't finance that.
Lyndon Rive:
Look, this is an industry which is – is always going to never – always remember right, if the price of power is given, the [indiscernible] kilowatt is given, so what really matters is your cost of financing and your cost to build. Right now we have the lowest cost to build and so when you break it all down that's what really matters and that's what we are focused on.
Philip Shen:
Great. Lyndon and Tanguy, thank you very much.
Lyndon Rive:
Thanks, Philip.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Krish Sankar from Bank of America-Merrill Lynch.
Krish Sankar:
Yes, hi. Thanks for taking my question, I had a few of them. First one you know, regards some turnaround your selling operating assets its 7.5% yield, is this more about price discovery or is it a price on a yield or IRR basis about which you choose not to sell an equity stake in your operating assets? And also what you think is most likely buyers for these assets at your price or ideal price, then I had a follow-up question.
Lyndon Rive:
Sure. Hey, Krish, thanks for the question. And really good question. So I don’t want to comment on pricing, specifically. One comment I would make is that I think we disclosed in the Analyst Day that some of these discount rates you talk about the assets would monetize up front somewhere about $3.2, $3.03 a watt, versus a cost structure of 2.7. So that's at $0.50, $0.60 bread. Also back to Patrick’s question that's a $050, $0.70 spread and that's really how we think about cash and spreads here. It’s more in terms of day one financing versus cost. So that's a $0.50 spread. Now the question is would we take lower? It just not right to speculate at this moment, but as the price that you're mentioning its north of $0.50 spread.
Krish Sankar:
Got it. All right. And then a follow up, kind of two-part question, I think this is the first time in what you guys have not provided a quarterly revenue guidance. What is the reason for that and along the path of Nevada the 20-megawatt per quarter head, your full year guidance is still impact ready to even make it to 80 megawatts for the full year?
Tanguy Serra:
Lyndon, you want to take the second part of the question before first part.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, sure.
Tanguy Serra:
So first part, so I this is my first call as CFO, I like one quarter to make sure that I understand the forecast and take ownership of the revenue numbers a particular which are hard to forecast. And will be – and that going forward. So my bad, but it’s my first earnings call as CFO and I will take ownership going forward.
Lyndon Rive:
So in terms of the last one Nevada, yes, we'll have to make it up and primary be on the East Coast in California and the yes it’s a guess that we make up we feel confident that we can make it up.
Krish Sankar:
Got it. Thanks.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Colin Rusch from Oppenheimer & Company.
Colin Rusch:
Thank you so much. With guidance keeping it maintaining it where you had it before and then also looking at buying some more expensive leads I'm just curious about your thought process and not raising the guidance because it would suggest this bigger opportunity that you can go after with that worrying about having to rationalize your OpEx as you move into 2017. So just can you walk us without thought process?
Tanguy Serra:
Yes. I mean, really good point. I guess it wasn't for Nevada maybe we be in position that we could. I don't want to do it at the stage. We do have to make up that gap and still have growth. We are again investing into sales and marketing, so do sales and marketing cost to go up again in Q1, go but we are going to invest - to make up the gap.
Colin Rusch:
Okay, great. And then as you look at the time between you’re the moment that you are deploying capital on these assets and then the time you can refinance the. Can you just walk us through what you are seeing in terms of shortening about cycle, because they would suggest that that is actually going to be really important piece for you from a cash flow standpoint?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, I agree with you. So The key constraint here is the first part of the capital structure is the tax equity fund, tax equity fund, the first part and we have to wait for the tax equity to be fully deploy and close before we are able to apply a permanent capital structure long-term on these that sets that are behind cash equity funds. And so what we need to do is with our funding partners and tax equity partners to make smaller funds that can close and more regular basis and able to recycle the aggregation capital faster. That specifically the constraint right now around that and we're in active progress and active work going on that particular works team.
Tanguy Serra:
The other thing we are actively looking at is our commercial. And commercial in the ways right now we get paid that inspection and we have to either change that or reduce the time for our insulation to inspection and that's going to push our commercial insulation into Q3, Q4 primarily because of that change. We don't want to use working capital to wait for that interconnection. And once we are able to change that then of course then will bring it back in, but assuming the current funds don't change we are going to shorten the cycle and push more in Q3 and Q4.
Colin Rusch:
Great. And then just so I can follow-up on real quickly on the smaller tax equity financing. What we're seeing in the securitization market is an outright for bigger deals rather than smaller more frequent deals. How does that marry up with the strategy? Are you guys [indiscernible] to wait in aggregate things or in a little bit eager size or you feel like, the size you been issuing is about right still?
Lyndon Rive:
Good question. We're obviously constantly working with our investment banks and working through optimal sizes. We've had really positive appetite from smaller and we've also had said feedback you got of bigger sizes. The problem thing which is – securitization you can put multiple tax equity funds like we have in our own [indiscernible] for example. We have for our five funds. The program is same which you need to - three or four of these funds to close and not being deployed to be able to securitize themselves as opposed to having one - one particularly very large within very fund which you close at the end-of-the-year then you cycle the capital there, better off having a series of smaller funds that you close every quarter and then recycle the capital there.
Colin Rusch:
Okay. Thanks guys.
Lyndon Rive:
Its just technicality when a tax equity not a common on the securitization markets.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Hugh Wynne from Bernstein.
Hugh Wynne:
Hi, thank you. Just wanted to follow-up on some of the data you provided on your pricing and escalators of the incremental sales in the quarter. It seems like pricing and new deployments dropped by a penny escalator declined on the other hand your abstract [ph] receipts have risen. I also notice the energy harvest has come down. I wonder if you could talk about the causes and consequences of that, are you moving into different regions with the different economics and what are the occasions going forward?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, the two biggest reasons will be commercial as well as East Coast growth. So when we're looking at these coast growth, the East Coast has lower PPA rate, but lot higher [indiscernible] it is a big part of our value.
Tanguy Serra:
So please look at page four, you got the residential versus commercial mid, and so the numbers we provide on the deployed inspected basis, so the commercial moves out a little bit. So intricate we had very little inspected the point commercial and is coming through in 4Q and so the consequence mix on both price escalator are lower. On the like for like basic the residential is very, very similar and as Lyndon said earlier on a like for like it says on residential in Q1 this may find these pricing in Q1 which expect to see showing up in the numbers in 2Q, to Q3 as some of the systems get inspected.
Hugh Wynne:
Got it, okay. Thank you very much.
Lyndon Rive:
Remember the commercial process is significant, the ground mount [ph] in east coast that has some of these characteristics, the cost to build is significantly lower, so back to some of the questions about margins they are actually very, very similar.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Brian Lee from Goldman Sachs.
Brian Lee:
Hey, guys, thanks for taking the questions. I just had just a few. First off on the megawatts or can you give us a sense of how many megawatts we have runway toward with the un-deployed tax equity at the end of Q4 and then from a broader perspective I know the question has been asked a few times, but just wondering if you have seen any shifts in the tax equity landscape? I think just recently we heard a law [ph] renewable tax equity players say they are funding would not grow year-over-year, so just trying to get a sense for what you are seeing broadly in that environment and then I had a follow-up
Lyndon Rive:
Sure, a couple questions there. One is in our letter on page 4 we are suggesting that they are $650 million in committed tax equity cash available and as I said on average $1.07 a watt, that’s 3, 400 megawatt committed tax equity capacity as of right now. And as you know, we are constantly into a beat business and we have two customers, we obviously have our customer [indiscernible] energy, as well as customers as we our customers to home sell deals and returns and we provide excellent customer service to both. And we've had repeat transactions with the bank the financial institutions and the corporate that provide us with tax equity. We expect that to continue, the relations that we formed are very strong. The assets that we put in the partnerships are performing at or better than expectations. We provide high-quality information and we're continuing to be in the market for our tax would be but we are not seen that dynamic for ourselves.
Brian Lee:
Okay, thanks, that's helpful. Then just around the economics of the business. I know there's been a long debate around this assumption around the 6% discount rate with the cash flows so just curious if you had any thoughts around portraying to that different lead and what you've traditionally done in the context of what seems like could be a rising cost to capital for you moving to the year and also in the context of any potential asset monetization what you think you could potentially complete a transaction that in terms of IRRs?
Lyndon Rive:
That's a fair question. Here's my perspective which is what to want to make sure we do is we disclose the underlying cash flows of these assets. And so if you look at age five and the Analyst Day deck which then helped model these cash flows and then on page 5 we explicitly saying that we had [indiscernible] 22 megawatts of MyPower, the harvest [indiscernible] extracts that we are seeing for this particular asset classes, for this asset sorry, as well as the escalators and the specific economics of tax equity distribution, those specifics assets are in. So my perspective here is I would rather provide the cash flows and ensure very clearly transparent the cash they were generating and then the market determine discount rate. I think it is too hard for us to impose a discount rate, we use 6% because that's what we've used to historically. I think it is fine discount rate, but we also the cash flows and will also show the number 6%. The other comment I'll make is one of the next slide, we're actually showing sensitivity there and go we showed four, we showed six, we should eight and we're letting people make the decisions here.
Brian Lee:
Okay, fair enough. That makes sense. Last one for me and I will pass it along. Just strategically, has there been any updated not to run the commitment commercial it seems as though a lot of the execution invisible at issues have stemmed from the segment here recently. We've all know that returns are also lower in that segment so wondering if you have had any updated was around the approach to that specific and market? Thanks, guys.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, we had share going quite nicely and commercial. Now we are also learning with the growth one of the things we're learning and winning the hard and it seems to be too often is on forecasting when the projects will be completed. So we still committed to the space. We've got to improve our cycle time of capital on it but it generates value. Obviously -- cycle come down.
Tanguy Serra:
Well, just one point with highlighting and on the right, commercial is very broad statement and the margins - on the right commercial securitization and attractive flat roof when it tied ground mount, we have some videos on website around how we can do these. To assume the price of panel, assume the price of inverters, a 10 man crew can do 200 kilowatt job two or three days. So just assume the labor costs there, these numbers are very, very attractive. It is a segment we like. The issue would be as Lyndon said, forecasting these timeline that you have a five or 10-megawatt project that's one delayed, that’s moving hard for forecasting. But the fundamentally economics don't change.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, just to elaborate a little bit more on what Tanguy just mentioned, we are in a unique position to be able to do the installation work ourselves because of our residential infrastructure because of that infrastructure we then have a lower cost structure for commercial. So we don’t want to like having this unique advantage it gives us clear path to being a dominant player in rooftop commercial.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Michael Morosi from Avondale Partners.
Michael Morosi:
Hi, guys. Thanks for taking the questions. First off, explicitly with respect to tax equity monetization a quarter, it looks like you came in at $1.55 per watt for the least systems. That compares to the size of the Analyst Day where it showed $1.73 of tax equity monetization. Is that -- does that reflect our monetization from CNI or what factors are in there that are pulling down that tax equity monetization?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, thank you for that Michael, good question, so there is two factors in there. One is the C&I by definition is lower in terms of dollars per watt. In terms of tax equity up from versus the residential business of that clearly drags it down. The size THAT we showed with the 3q numbers were almost exclusively residential, our 3Q vintage, so we decided all for 4Q. The other thing it does is that, these the megawatts we are deployed as the denominator enumerator the dollars that came in. So if you have a funding period in the first week of January that would obviously offset is. So on a like for like basis our residential in Q4 is the same as a regimental in Q3 and our commercial is lower.
Michael Morosi:
Okay. That's fair. Just looking at the asset monetization, the strategy seems to focus primarily on monetizing just the 20 year contracted portion. Is there a price at which you would sell the stake out right? Or essentially if you were paid with renewal value would you subsystem out right or if not, is that because would rub into maybe some of the fair market value issues with respect to how the systems are valued for tax equity purposes?
Lyndon Rive:
I think there is massive value in renewals to be clear, if you provide excellent customer service to a homeowner or building through long period of time, that service will renew over time. So I think there is massive value in the backend of the yield. Now, that said, having a yield focused investor understand that feels like something that might be a little bit more difficult or want to pay for that. And so we reserve full rights [indiscernible] we think the renew has massive value and at the same time we're saying that if your yield focused investor that when you really want to just cash your return it doesn’t feel like us – it feels right, separate out the ownership of the renewal from the ownership of the short term cash flow.
Michael Morosi:
Okay. And then just kind of last picture and last question, this is bigger picture but what percentage of your installs longer-term do you envision being this asset equity monetization versus ABS? Where would you get efficiencies in a strategy where these long-term investors might even bring their own tax equity or bring their own debt financing to write you basically one check for the whole system?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, that’s super question, look my general sense here is that if you think about solar, right, so origination – originating significant volume solar is regard and we are really good at that. Building these assets for underlying energy contracts, lows cost, safe high quality is really hard and extraordinary and that is the puzzle. The tax equity piece is a unique US legal complicated structure which is unique to solar and mostly unique to solar. In my mind best case scenario here is we offer white gloss to investors who is looking for cash yield and better that to with the complexity of tax equity. But my mind is where we of demise the returns, and our financing upfront. That said, if there's a sophisticated tax overall investor that has tax appetite and is looking to invest cash yield we could clearly work them and structure something in. What we're really, really good at is originating energy contracts for homeowners and workers - extraordinary at that. We are extraordinary in building this asset safe and low-cost and super high quality. The underlying coupon clipping ownership on a daily basis is something we don't think – but we think there is other people who are normally elected.
Michael Morosi:
Thanks.
Operator:
Your next question comes from Pavel Molchanov from Raymond James.
Pavel Molchanov:
Thanks for taking the question, guys. Can we get a quick update on Mexico and the potential International entries that you talk about at the Analyst Day?
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, absolutely. Mexico is still going. We are installing megawatts there, we plan to probably launch residential offering in the next two quarters. Once that going then machine will start producing real megawatts. In terms of other international expansion we are still looking at the markets. We make sure that markets that we go into is a cash generating, high return and so maybe plan on one additional market at the end-of-the-year. It could be first into 2017.
Pavel Molchanov:
Got it. And then second, in terms of the comment about raising prices. Last year according to the EIAs data, retail nationwide retail electric prices very, very modest increase, lowest in about 10 years. Is that affecting your pricing power at all?
Tanguy Serra:
No. When we increased it we were very cautious in making sure we still have a value offering to the customer. So in most markets we still showing customers about 20% savings off the retail rates. So even with the increase still there we haven increase prices for a while, so there was a lot of movement. Just to set extension, its not - I don’t want people that think this is a massive increase, the blended rate is probably between have a $0.05 $0.75, $0.75 to the overall.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes and be careful about looking at the EIAs data, I think, you just look at the data from the published rates and rate increases so at the analyst presentation went through the California rate increases in particular those are locked in and they are going to tier 1 to $0.15, $0.17 and that's - that's a real increase, just you know, significant.
Pavel Molchanov:
All right. Appreciate it guys.
Operator:
Your next question comes from Edwin Mok from Needham & Company.
Edwin Mok:
Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my question. First is on the guidance, I guess I want some clarification on the commercial part you said that you comp the dilating installation because of the electrical connection by the utility. Does that affect the timing and had any impact on full-year guidance or was it just counter near term affect and for the full-year guidance what kind of commercial mix are you factoring into that 1.25 gigawatt?
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, I expect about – it start to be about 80/20, you are probably seeing maybe 25, 30 and for commercial for this year. The closure on that is expect commercial to have fairly large volumes in Q3, Q4 as we want to reduce the cycle time. So what happens is you kickoff utility, try to utility make that – that electrical upgrade, they didn’t do their process it takes them six or nine months to do that upgrade. As they are two months away this will be kickoff our installation to sync up with them, so that we can have better working capital on these assets. This is something we are now learning with a lot of the East Coast grant mount that we are deploying.
Edwin Mok:
Okay. Thanks for clarifying that, thanks. And then on OpEx I noticed you came in real guidance on the fourth quarter guidance somewhat flattish. I think from the history of the company you guys have always been pretty aggressive in terms of ramming OpEx. So wondering any kind of color on how we should think about OpEx as we go through the year? Are we slowing the OpEx growth here any color you can provide there? Thanks.
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, as Lyndon mentioned earlier, I think in Q4 remember the state of mind at the early part of Q4 was is unlikely will have the ICC experience and therefore that's make sure we rain in some of the stop site [indiscernible] and so we didn’t went through that and as a consequence the steel [ph] rate came to down $0.56 in Q4. Then in 2015, look our - we've had a phenomenal track record of lowering cost in the operation side of the house. Our cost [indiscernible] proud of that. We think that over the course of 2016 we can continue reducing costs significantly in overhead we're excited by that. So no guidance, no commitment yet, but the Q1 numbers is an initial deposit.
Edwin Mok:
Okay. Thanks. One last question if I may. I guess a question on funding side, right, so if I look at x in the year or how you guys are getting on the tax equity, I assume that your tax equity number will come in that below the $1.70 that you talked about for the plan for 2015, as you go through '16, right and while your costs is coming down that kind of imply your debt might have to be higher is that mix might be higher to give you the funding cost that you need to hit your target. So just wondering, is that why you guys start to look at monetizing some of the operating asset because they put more pressure on getting that financing, can you kind of walk us through that again is our how we kind of think about that?
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, fascinating topic. I agree. So if you look at the tax equity piece, the tax piece is – it’s a combination of what tax payers was monetize a tax credit for and with the tax credit were based on a fair market value. So you are saying that the 1.7 has been dropped, you're making implications on the fair market value going forward, which I don’t want to comment on that. But that's the driver there. But if the tax equity piece goes down then the percentage of the cash flows the tax ex-with the provider is lower, and so the amount of leverage available is actually higher and its a balancing act where if you lower the amount of tax equity that you can actually increase the amount of debt or leverage get because more tax further available. So that's the mechanics there. Some I think deal with asset monetization, those are two different concepts. For what its worth, yes monetization as the mechanics, as you [indiscernible] market which is if there's more cash available from the cash flows to that cash equity provider then for a given yield the upfront financing goes up.
Edwin Mok:
I see. Okay, thanks.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Sven Eenmaa from Stifel.
Sven Eenmaa:
Yes, thanks for taking my questions. First wanted to ask in terms of your guidance on turning cash flow positive in the fourth quarter, what are the underlying assumptions in terms of tax equity per watt and debt per watt finance, as well as on the blended basis to asset sales, per watt and that is reference to the.2 gigawatts guidance?
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, I don’t think we're ready to commit quite yet to the percentage mix, it could be high level numbers, right, which is – so in 2015 we got 1.7 for tax equity, I think you can make assumptions on where that goes on forward, the debt we were clearing about a $1 in 2015 from the securitization we put more in that, that’s get you to in 2015 2.73, so that is a ballpark. And then cash equity is going to be higher than that, so because you might have a full value of the cash flows. Then our cost there are $271 a watt, and our cost are going to continue coming down in 2016, I think we provided some 2017 guidance of 225. And so cost continue coming down in 2016, so there is spread between what we monetize upfront and our costs thus far. And then as [indiscernible] we have some CapEx that if we can push on that on to 2017 and we're reducing our working capital cycle time associated with commercial, so when we put that altogether that’s how we get there.
Sven Eenmaa:
Got it. Thank you.
Tanguy Serra:
I apologize, I don’t want to commit too many percentages and numbers as you know, three quarters that’s very difficult to give, I can only give generic numbers. I apologize for that, I wish I could be more precise, I will be shortly.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Gordon Johnson from Axiom Capital Management.
Gordon Johnson:
Thanks for taking my questions.
Lyndon Rive:
Sure. Hey, Gordon.
Gordon Johnson:
So, I guess, first I wanted to focus on I guess, the MyPower program. It specifically don't know exactly what the initial yield was on the program, I think it was 4.5% and the term is the duration is 30 years, but given California which is clearly the most nice solar state is say that grandfather period is 20 years and the first ABS on the MyPower loans was a blended 5.9% rate suggesting if the rate was 4.5% of those loans maybe being done on pennies on a dollar. Is there any potential that you guys make in the program, or am I thinking about this quickly and then I have a follow-up?
Lyndon Rive:
So let me take step back. There's a large number's on MyPower, so let me take a step back. So the monetization of the MyPower portfolio as you said was 5.9%, blended yield. That cleared $2.7, $2.8 per watt upfront. So our costs were $2.7. So from a cost 2.7 and clear 2.7, 2.8 upfront with MyPower from a development company perspective were cash flow neutral there. Now on top of that MyPower contracts is somewhere around $0.16, 1700 hours and so you're clearing $0.24, $0.25 per watt per year. And the 5.8% is not on - is only on the $2.8 we cleared and so that’s somewhere around $0.22, $0.22 per watt of interest and principal. And so the economics on MyPower are we get to.2.7, 2.8 upfront and then still get cash to equity every year, so that's economics and MyPower for us. From a homeowners perspective its 1.5% of loan which we refinanced separately, so I would not mix and match those two interest rate.
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, the second part of the question is on MyPower, we are in the process of looking at revamping that product.
Gordon Johnson:
Okay, that’s helpful. And then with respect to a guess the net metering decision in California, I saw one of the more interesting pieces was the time of use and specifically rates for time of use being mandatory for all that energy metering successor tariff customers. And when I think of time I used it seems like people aren’t really focused on this, but this seems to be the most significant part of this and I want to get your thoughts on this and what I mean is under time of use rates clearly those rates are more sensitive to a lower than I guess and more so off-peak rates versus the peak rates before. Is it that's is it fair to assume that the competition would decrease over time making solar leases and PPAs less economical under the new time of use rules and do you guys think this could potentially be a determent? And again, thanks for the question.
Peter Rive:
This is Peter Rive, I'll take that one. So I think that, the last earning call I said that I think that net metering will kind of transform over the couple of years and that will be a good kind of give and take and I think this kind of views represent that for us. When you look at California and having a customer going to mandatory fund of use, depending on these economics [indiscernible] rates will end up, will give the customer the ability to save maybe closer to around $350 a year, as compared to around 420, 450, but it also creates a really big opportunity for us to start monetizing our big technology investments that we've made in battery control systems, as well as general load control, the relationship we have with [indiscernible] and that was established basically compensating the time of use feature for California. I'll say that, as we think about solar into the next decade, and you start looking at solar kind of becoming a massive part of electricity deliveries, it’s going to be really important that in general we move this high grid electricity to being closer to the middle of the day. So again I think its reasonable give and take and it’s a side effect that even the off peak rates are particularly higher, than this all PPA rates, where the customers always kind of in the money right now, even if they kind of they are really bad outcomes and time of use. And at end of the day I think that it’s a reasonable give and take.
Gordon Johnson:
Thanks, again.
Lyndon Rive:
Thank you.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Jeff Osborne with Cowen and Company.
Jeff Osborne:
Great, thank you. I just want to follow-up on the Silevo [ph] comment, with approaching up to CapEx, can you just touch A, quantify what the amount that were pushed out was for 2016 then more specifically what reasons for the equipment are challenged from the recent perspective just given that therapy is not a lot of activity going on in terms of capital [indiscernible] solar cell manufacturer states?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, I don’t think it’s fair that we describe what – which equipment is being delayed, and it has long lead time then initially expected. And so in terms of the dollar amount, I would expect a little less than a half of that we're moving to 2017.
Jeff Osborne:
That’s half of which, Lyndon, I apologize…
Lyndon Rive:
It was half of our – so think on our last K we gave 180 forecast and we expensed a bit of that, so I'd say its about $65 million, $70 million it goes into the following year.
Jeff Osborne:
Got it. And to be clear the overall solar module pricing environment doesn't have any factors there, the 100% into social, has to deal with just lead times from the equipment?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, the equipment are only arising in Q2.
Jeff Osborne:
Got it. And then is there any impact as it relates to Q4 and now also Q1 with the guidance as a relates to the weather in California, figure what the range, I'm just trying to understand that variable and how you manage that?
Lyndon Rive:
In terms of Q1 guidance for the range?
Jeff Osborne:
Yes, over Q4 result, that’s coming in a little bit soft, you touched on commercial, but isn't seen that a very dry, so last year and very wet winter?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, it had some effect for sure, I mean, this one day, the installation California, but we did a little bit planning for weather, as that’s what the main reason, but definitely had an effect.
Jeff Osborne:
Got it. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. At this time, we have no further questions. I would turn the call back towards speakers for closing comments.
Lyndon Rive:
Again, I think this is it. Thank you very much for your time today and look forward to the follow up.
Operator:
Thank you. This concludes today's teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.
Executives:
Aaron Chew - Vice President, Investor Relations Lyndon Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder Brad Buss - Chief Financial Officer Peter Rive - Co-Founder, Chief Technology Officer Tanguy Serra - Chief Operating Officer
Analysts:
Patrick Jobin - Credit Suisse Noah Kaye - Oppenheimer & Co. Philip Shen - Roth Capital Partners LLC Brian Lee - Goldman Sachs Tyler Frank - Robert W. Baird Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Krish Sankar - Bank of America-Merrill Lynch Gordon Johnson - Axiom Capital Management Jamie Berman - Deutsche Bank Michael Morosi - Avondale Partners LLC Edwin Mok - Needham & Co. LLC Pavel Molchanov - Raymond James
Operator:
Greetings and welcome to the SolarCity Third Quarter 2015 Earnings Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. A brief question-and-answer session will follow the formal presentation. [Operator Instructions]. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce your host Aaron Chew. Thank you, Mr. Chew. You may begin.
Aaron Chew:
Thank you and good afternoon to everyone joining us today for SolarCity's third quarter 2015 earnings conference call. Leading the presentation today will be a discussion from our Chief Executive Officer, Lyndon Rive, our Chief Technology Officer, Peter Rive, our Chief Operating Officer, Tanguy Serra, as well as our Chief Financial Officer, Brad Buss, after which point in time we will open it up to questions. As a reminder, today's discussion will contain forward-looking statements that involve our views as of today based on information currently available to us. Forward-looking statements should not be considered as guarantee of future performance or results and reflects information that may change over time. Please refer to SolarCity's quarterly shareholder letter issued today, as well as the slides accompanying this presentation and our periodic reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission for a discussion of forward-looking statements and the factors and risks that could cause our actual results to differ from these forward-looking statements. We do not undertake any obligation to publicly update or revise any forward-looking statement. In addition, during the course of this call, we'll use a number of specially defined terms relating to our business metrics and financial results, including non-GAAP financial metrics. We refer to the definitions of these terms and the required reconciliation between GAAP and non-GAAP financial metrics included in the shareholder letter issued today as well as the slides accompanying this presentation which are available on our Investor Relations website investors.solarcity.com. With that finally behind us, I would like to introduce SolarCity's Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Lyndon Rive.
Lyndon Rive:
Thanks, Aaron. So thanks everybody for joining the call. We are going to try a different format in this call. Instead of going through the slides, you have the access to slides. We're going to spend most of the time addressing questions. Before we get to the questions, I want to give a quick company update, and Brad will just discuss some of the updates on finance and Peter will get into discussion on net metering. A quick recap for Q3, we installed 256 megawatts, which is a new record, but slightly lower than our 260 megawatts forecast. Now I'm disappointed in this number, but just to put it in perspective, at our current rate of installation, we installed roughly 2.5 to 3 megawatts a day, so we missed it by 1.5 day or so. All the fundamentals of the business are looking good. Cost reduction is coming down nicely, demand for the products is strong and the economic value we've created this quarter was $239 million, that's quite an amazing number. Looking at the last nine years, the strategy of the company has all been about growth. The reason why we focused on growth is the need to achieve scale. We don't know why you can reduce cost is the scale. For the last nine years, we've been growing roughly 80% to 90% that is the downside of growing at 80% or 90%, if you have to make investments into the infrastructure today which you'll only recognize the benefit of that investment two to three quarters later. So that needs a cost to that scale. Now that we've achieved scale, we as an executive team and the board have decided to focus on cost reduction and being cash flow positive by the end of 2016. With this new focus, we're going to reduce our growth rates to roughly 40% in 2016. Now for company [indiscernible] 40% is still a very big growth rate, but this will enable us to focus on profitable installation, the more profitable installations as well as reducing our customer acquisition costs. If you look at our Q3 installed costs, we almost achieved our 2017 goal of $90 a watt, but now that we're investing less into growth, we're going to be updating our 2017 cost goals by the next earnings call, we expect updated cost targets for 2017 and expect a meaningful reduction to our $2.50 a watt by 2017. One thing I want to make clear is this changing focus is not a lack demand. We expect in Q4 bookings to be greater than Q3 bookings. Normally Q4 is lower than Q3 because of the seasonality you have less selling days, but the demand is strong. And in 2016, we expect the demand to be very strong. When you have an aspiring tax credit or a tax credit going from 30% down from 10%, the customers are going to rush to get in to not miss the opportunity, so we expect demand to be strong in 2016. Now we are actually going to be increasing our pricing in Q1 next year, but we have small increase depending on [stakes], we'll increase roughly $0.25 to $0.01 a kilowatt hour in our leases and PPAs, and essentially matches the escalation of the utility rates. Overall, I'm very excited about the business and the strategy change. We now at some inflection point, but we're going to become cash flow positive by the end of 2016 and have a cost structure with the business to maintain cash flow positive in 2017 with a 10% [accuracy]. I'm going to pass it over to Brad.
Brad Buss:
Thanks, Lyndon. Just a quick couple comments on Q3. Overall I think we had a very successful quarter with some great results and records that Lyndon touched on, and I just want to emphasize a couple things. The record economic value creation of $239 million we achieved that was up 22% sequentially with solid IRRs of 12% and that's what fully loaded costs. If you look at it on project basis like many competitors do, it's much closer to 16%. Also at the end of Q3, we had record gross retained value of $4.4 billion and net retained value of $3.3 billion which is approximately $33 per outstanding share. As far as our PowerCo Available Cash which we introduced in Q2, I just want to explain a couple of timing differences that we tend to see and that you will continue to see going forward. So if you look at just the Q3 number, our PowerCo revenue was a record $95 million and that was due to increased assets in service as well as strong system performance as Q3 tends to be our extremely sunny period. The final PAC just again in Q3 was 19 million, and again that was due mainly from the timing of certain payments for debt and interest that typically happen at a higher level in Q1 and Q3 and the same thing for higher distributions to our tax equity partners. If you now look at things on a trailing 12 months period which we really view as the best measure to see how PACs moving on an annual basis, the PowerCo revenue increased 17% sequentially and the net PAC from operations and prior to any distributions to our tax equity partners and/or debt service increased 7% sequentially. The final PAC was $112 million and it was down 2%, but again that was really due to the timing of the payments related to debt, tax equity and interest as I mentioned and you'll continue to see those fluctuations in Q1 and Q3. I want to just touch real briefly on our financing strategy. I mean there's always been a lot of turmoil on the solar industry as of late and a lot of questions related to financing come up. I think we went to great lengths in our shareholders who have letter as well as the earnings deck to explain that our financing structure for our main products which are leases, PPAs and MyPower loans are very different from some of our peers and obviously very different than some of the current challenges that certain yield curves are facing. The bottom line is that our solar asset financing strategy is very sound and it's focused on tax equity, aggregation facilities and ABS. We have ample room on our main tax equity in [eight] facilities which really provide the bulk of our year-one cash. In addition, I think as most of you know, we completed our financing with a take up via the ABS market in August and I expect to have a regular cadence from here on. All of our guidance is detailed in the earnings deck for Q4 as well as 2016, but just to ensure that we're all on the same page, I want to let you know that the cash flow breakeven that Lyndon talked about and how we're going to define that. So all of that will come right off of our quarterly financials, and the formula that we're using is the net increase in cash and investments which obviously included securities, etcetera, less net cash provided by equity issuances that comes up the cash well is going to be greater than or equal to zero. So I'll just wrap up there and I'll now turn it over to Pete to cover one of our favorite subjects.
Peter Rive:
And by favorite subjects, you mean net metering?
Brad Buss:
Correct.
Peter Rive:
[Utilities are positioned] to reach out solar is getting a lot of airplay, so I'd like to give you our take on the situation. So despite utility efforts regulators are rejecting proposals to unfairly penalizing solar customers as evidenced by recent sales with Samsung Colorado, New Mexico, and Kansas. Additionally, net metering caps recently extended in New Jersey, New York and the Nevada PUC extended its program through year-end while it will validate the benefits of rooftop solar. It's important to note that a previous study conducted in Nevada showed that the benefit outweigh the revenue shifts. In Arizona, this week we achieved another victory against utilities attempting to have viewed their monopoly positions. In our case against SRP, a judge rule that utility must answer in court for the unfair and anticompetitive penalties that it's imposing on solar customers. In Hawaii, which is a very special case with double-digit market penetration and extremely high electricity prices, the PUC issued a new solar tariff which has some good and some bad components to it. Bad was the lack of due process [indiscernible] take effects, but good in that it provides expedited and mandatory interconnection for sources and not back feed on to the grid which is whatever breaks as self supply there. But working on a self supply solution that could restore Hawaii, it's a high growth market for us at some point. And then maybe in California, California Public Utilities Commission is expected to release their new net metering tariffs in the coming months and this is a very important one for us. In general, we're hopeful of a good outcome for two reasons. First, we believe the benefits of rooftop solar are greater than the revenue shift and by benefits I mean the ability to avoid distribution and transmission expenses and so on. And then secondly, a decision that ensures continued growth of rooftop solar is required by law. I'm going to quote directly from Assembly Bill 327 and this is in reference to [Minnesota]. The commission shall do all of the following and then the first points is ensure that the standard contract or tariff made available to eligible customer generators, ensure that customer side of renewable distributed generation continues to grow sustainably. I just want to reemphasize that it is required by law that that happens. So then like I think that if we think about this, it's important that business is not going to go away forever I think that the utilities will try to impose and going to stop selling it. And over time, it's going to be give and take on both sides. So we are optimistic that in the phase of climate change and the benefits as well as popularity of solar power that their agencies imposed policies that slowed down solar adoption. And with that I'd like move to the questions and answers of the call.
A - Aaron Chew:
Operator, can we open it up?
Operator:
Yes, thank you. We will now be conducting a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions]. Thank you. Our first question comes from Patrick Jobin of Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.
Patrick Jobin:
Hey, thanks for taking the question. I guess first question on 2016 guidance. I guess maybe some of the thought process that you guys went through to form the 40% growth from my perspective a meaningful deceleration. Was that guidance impacted by any market demand constraints policy uncertainty conservatism building out the organizational capacity, I guess to avoid any underutilized capacity in '17, capital constraints organizational constraints or any competitive pressures? I just want to better understand some of the motivating factors. Thanks.
Lyndon Rive:
Yeah, it's a really good question. Due to couple of areas, first if you look at our current acquisition costs it's around [$0.64] a watt, growing at 80% to 90% is that last portion of lost customers, they are really expensive, so we want to reduce acquisition costs so by slowing it down then we can reduce our acquisition costs. The other is the best time to plan for a 10% ITC and optimize the company for a 10% ITC, it's not when you in the 10% ITC, well it's when you in the 30% ITC, that's when you want to make the change. If we make this focus in 2017, it's going to be a lot harder to do it then than it is to do it now, so that's another reason why we decided to do it earlier, when we saw the market that we can have at a similar cost and it has to be cash flow positive, a maintained cash flow positive in 2017. And the other point I want to emphasize is, when you're growing at 80% beyond the high acquisition costs, the only way to maintain an 80% growth rate, you have to make big, big investments, but you're only going to see the results of those investments as two to three quarters later, and so doing that when you know that you have to get to a cost structure where we want strive to be cash flow positive in 2017 of all the reasons why we decided to reduce the growth rate. And I do want to follow-up with, find companies that are deploying an infrastructure that has 14,000 employees that are growing at 40%.
Patrick Jobin:
I think that's making [indiscernible] some point in terms of revenue growth. I mean it's going to be in excess of 70%?
Lyndon Rive:
Exactly. So it is not a standard 80% growth, but note that 40% is a low growth number, just I wanted to emphasize that.
Patrick Jobin:
Got it. And then so just a follow-up, when you think about the sales costs, how wide was that differential between, I guess, that first 40% for growth and the last few customers to get you to that 80%, 90% growth level, how varying is that incremental sales related cost or how wide is that range?
Tanguy Serra:
Hey Patrick, it's Tanguy. I think that's still -- that is actually quite wide. If you think about it right, our best form of acquisition is referrals by definition, so referrals is our cheapest customers required in some of our customers who are the most grateful for us, and then you walk to cost stack up. Direct energy is a phenomenal cost acquisition channel, and then as you continue walking your stack up when you have to pay for leads and then closing costs, their costs are higher. The spread is, we only get spreads number two, too widely [acts] on disclosure or cost structure by channel, but it is a mature spread if you're paying for a leader, if you are not paying for a leader.
Patrick Jobin:
Thank you.
Operator:
The next question is from Noah Kaye of Oppenheimer & Co. Please go ahead.
Noah Kaye:
Thank you. So first maybe I want to start off with the positive front. Can you give us an idea of what you're actually assuming for NEM 2.0, how soon do you expect the decision to be -- what your baseline assumptions are positive and negative surprise around that, and how that might influence your outlook for next year?
Lyndon Rive:
So, I think that we expected something out of the PUC in the next two months or so. I got to say that it's not easy for us to build in specific assumptions into planning for [indiscernible]. I think again what gives us great comfort is the fact that AB 327 says, okay, by law the tariffs that the PUC comes up with must ensure that with top solar continues to grow sustainably. So we're just be speculating at this point and I'd rather not do that.
Noah Kaye:
Okay, that's certainly fair. If we can turn to the financing, so successfully closing the ABS, I believe this was the first time as a new financing structure for you guys underpin those leases. Can you talk a little bit about -- expand a little bit more on the cadence of future ABS is and in particular where you expect loan to value to trend? Thanks.
Brad Buss:
Yeah, thank you. So you hit a key point right, so all of our lease structures were leases and PPAs are now weighted which is great and they all have an investment grade rating. The next thing it was end up coming up now truly will be the MyPower loans, and then really all of our products are totally rated. So from a cadence standpoint, remember, so since we have tax equity funds underlying these, we basically still a fund up, so once a fund is build up then we have some fairly large funds that tend to have been a year in length. So once they are done, we'll put them right out into the ABS markets right away, so hence we did have a little bit of low, I think as you noticed in this year, but I think you'll see the cadence as soon as these funds are down, they will be coming out the doors. So you'll see much more frequent issuances going forward. And as far as the advance in all [rates], they really just depend at the time than market structure, but I would expect the advance rates for leases and PPAs to be fairly stable to what we've seen and probably be getting better when we get into the MyPower situation, since it's a very different chronic with no ITC in it.
Noah Kaye:
Okay, thank you. I'll return back in queue.
Brad Buss:
Yeah, thank you.
Operator:
The next question comes from Philip Shen of Roth. Please go ahead.
Philip Shen:
Hey guys, thanks for taking my questions. In the last quarter, you guys talked about normalized PAC or PowerCo cash flow of being closer to $166 million. With the variability that we saw in Q3, what do you think the normalized PAC ought to be on a go forward basis?
Brad Buss:
So again the normalized, I think that reflected the tax equity distributions added back, right, just a [roll] on the same page. And I think as I went through hearing in the letter and hopefully people understand that the variability between Q1 and Q3, there is very different timing for all of those payments, right. And we kind of show you by quarter, so you can see that. So I think as we add more debt that obviously goes into the number and your payment still there, but the revenue will move accordingly. So we are not in a position to give you a guidance on it at this point, but I would say, year-on-year it's going to continue to grow substantially.
Philip Shen:
Great, thanks Brad. You guys did a great job on expanding commercial in the quarter. Can you give us some more color on this commercial strength? Is it the small commercial segment that's driving growth as you guys refer to in the last quarter and what kind of mix of commercial can we see in Q4 and as we go through 2016?
Peter Rive:
I appreciate, you question on commercial. It's a good topic for us. So in commercial, what we have done is, remember, we've in-sourced the construction costs of commercial using our own crews, and that's been massively successful sort of beyond our expectations candidly and so what we've done is we dramatically reduced the cost structure of commercial in a place where -- I'm actually really excited about our commercial costs on a go forward basis, and so what that has done is that, that has enabled us to build [gram ounce], large gram ounce as well as rooftops at a low cost which by definition we can bid reasonably attractive, very attractive power prices to our end-customers, that is really, really good. The mix is -- it's mostly -- there is no average by definition but there is a probably 1 megawatt gram ounce, pretty standard, 500 kilowatts rooftops, pretty standard and them some smaller cardboards in particular for schools in California.
Philip Shen:
I guess the mix I was referring to is, and so far as you can share of the guidance for Q4, 290 megawatts, how much of that could be commercial?
Peter Rive:
I'm looking at Brad and making sure that I'll let him answer the question, so he is saying, yes. So the mix will be somewhere between 70 megawatts and 90 megawatts of commercial in Q4 of installs.
Philip Shen:
Great, very helpful.
Operator:
The next question is from Brian Lee of Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.
Brian Lee:
Hey guys. Thanks for taking the questions. I had several actually, maybe a simple one. How should we be thinking about 2017, I guess in the context of this new pivoting strategy, what is it mean for targeting growth beyond the ITC?
Lyndon Rive:
Yeah, I still expect to see a growth in 2017, and it would be a cash flow positive, so that's the whole pivot I'd add to that, and this is the reason why we're pivoting right now. So we can have a cost structure that we have growth [theater] in 2017.
Brian Lee:
Okay, fair enough. I guess since that's a good segue into the next set of questions that I had. On that positive cash flow that you're [blending], if I use your installed targets, it seems like you'd have to be down to about 230 per watt of oil and gas by the end of 2016 to get to breakeven based on the cumulative capacity that you're targeting in. So I'm wondering if that's the right read here first of all, and then I had a follow-up on that.
Lyndon Rive:
Brain, you know your math is so well, but I don't want to give guidance to see it on the cost.
Brian Lee:
That you are good at math.
Lyndon Rive:
That you are good at math.
Lyndon Rive:
So I'm not giving guidance on it as you're good at math.
Brian Lee:
Okay, thank you for the compliment. Maybe I'll hop back to volumes then. On the 2015 outlook, in the shareholder letter you're mentioning some uncertainty around commercial installs in December. So are you actually expecting things to slip into 2016 because I would have figured if all goes according to plan, your original outlook even if it's at the low end, I would have remained intact. So is there anything else that might be falling out here as growth simply to slower than you might have thought?
Lyndon Rive:
We just don't want to push too hard on the growth, and once again that's higher costs. To maintain this 80% growth in terms of installation had extra costs, so we just wondered that we did that, and then combined with that Tanguy just mentioned on the megawatt strength, you're looking at 20 megawatts swings there on the commercial.
Tanguy Serra:
Yeah, very late in a year with weather holidays -- I mean there are just a lot of challenges, right.
Lyndon Rive:
Yeah, I mean especially with the production around [indiscernible] of winter in California.
Brian Lee:
Okay. Fair enough. I'm going to try to squeeze one last one and then I'll jump back in. And back to cash flow when I do the…
Lyndon Rive:
[indiscernible] one thing, because this is important to me. This is not a demand channels like Q4 bookings is going to be higher than Q3 bookings and that normally does not happen in Q4 because you just less selling days, so it's normally harder to do that.
Brian Lee:
Okay, no thanks for that clarification, that's good point. Going back to cash flow from the last question and then I'll hop off. You're implying that the breakeven cash flow is at 3.35 gigawatts of cumulative capacity again based on my math which I hope is somewhat accurate. I would imply every gigawatt above that get see to something around $200 million or $250 million positive EBITDA assumingly that's your cost targets or a even a bit below or so. I'm not asking you to endorse those numbers, but can you give us a sense of not only what breakeven is which you're articulating here for the first time, but essentially what the EBITDA growth could look like as we scale out in the out years because obviously that's what you're trying to position here for?
Brad Buss:
Yeah, I think as we complete the cost and everything else, we are deep in our planning process right now, we'll consider that, but there is nothing we're looking to give out right now.
Lyndon Rive:
I would use actually as the definition of EBITDA basically the economic value creation of the business which would starting at $39 million in this quarter, alright. So again like when you seem like EBITDA is represented by free cash flow in the periods, but remember simultaneously generating hundreds of millions of dollars in economic value.
Brian Lee:
Okay. Thanks guys.
Brad Buss:
Yeah, just take the EBC and replace it with some of the Brian math on the cost, you can do a lot of modeling there.
Brian Lee:
I've been trying that. Thank you.
Operator:
The next question comes from the Tyler Frank of Robert W. Baird. Please go ahead.
Tyler Frank:
Hey guys, thanks for taking the question. What sort of financing do you need to complete? The mood to become cash flow positive, is that to avoid future equity raises or should we plan on an equity raise at any point here in the near future?
Brad Buss:
Yeah, so I think as far as to your point on completing, if you look at the financing of the [fuller] systems, right, it's ABS and its aggregation. So I think I went through great pains in the letter basically showing you that P&L of the tax equity is a little different. It is really a tax offer type advice that we've had very strong demand. We've already got the next some months covered and I would expect by the end of the year, we'll have the balance of the year complete and then the aggregates of these are very flexible. So we can help them, we move them as we go to take that as an ABS, that I mentioned we don't actually do much more on this, this coming year, but we would be able to then recycle that back through, so I think those are still at ease are fine. And then from a working capital perspective, we intended to be using the revolvers and the solar bonds.
Tyler Frank:
Got it. And then is there capacity to potentially due higher megawatt to plan in next year or have you guys essentially calculated this is where we want to be this level of growth heading into 2017, so you can better look at the market and judge what you can do about the prevailing dynamics?
Brad Buss:
Yeah, so our focus is going to be on cost reduction and cash flow positives. If we have the opportunity to grow more and it still needs us to primarily goals we will, but the primary focus is cost reduction and being cash flow positive.
Lyndon Rive:
We had comment on it and it's important to understand which is we don't build our capacity to build ahead of time, alright, because now we'd have idle capacity, so we size our capacities for the build megawatt of that month of that quarter. So the way we do that is we've got the SolarCity University and so we're able to onboard and train installers and SolarCity professionals to be able to grow for demand. So the capacity point if we want to grow more we will be able to deploy that capacity on a real-time basis without incurring [indiscernible].
Brad Buss:
On the financing, right I mean to Lyndon's point if there is something that's opportunistic or the ITC clarity gets better whatever we will have extra financing, just in case anybody is wanted to go with that.
Tyler Frank:
Great. And then just one last question, in terms of the manufacturing facility, where do you guys stand today for the construction and what sort of milestone should we be looking out for?
Peter Rive:
We opened our California centre in Fremont, where we have the 100 megawatts line, we feel very, very good about that. We're excited about what we're seeing coming out of that line. Some of the numbers are ahead of what we thought, something is really, really good. So on the technology, front we feel very, very good about where we at. And then on the scaling up of manufacturing, the Buffalo facility is on track so far and we continue to be expecting to be ramping up there in first half of next year.
Lyndon Rive:
Whatever it is, we are happy, we're very, very happy with the technology there.
Tyler Frank:
Great, thank you.
Operator:
The next question is from Julien Dumoulin-Smith of UBS. Please go ahead.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith:
Hey good afternoon. Perhaps could you elaborate a little bit on the regional dynamic playing out here with the execution just is it really a northeast spend or just broadly speaking what's drove 3Q and 2016 expectations? Yeah, I'll leave it there for now.
Brad Buss:
I'm not sure, I understand the question.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith:
Yeah, I mean just, could you go state-by-state, in terms of the execution on getting the megawatts built out, how is it looking? I mean is it really weighted one state versus another?
Peter Rive:
Our East Coast states are all doing real -- they all grow in really nice stay. California is our number one state.
Brad Buss:
California is still number one, the East Coast is rolling quicker, but obviously at a smaller base, so it's a nice number too after California.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith:
Right. But in terms of the sort of the backlog the time to get these things done, is there any differentiation of one lagging more than the other in terms of getting them off the ground?
Peter Rive:
Yeah, so the average time to install across the portfolio is about 60 days. It's a little bit less in California, a little bit longer in the East Coast, but there are no capacity constraints or anything like that on the East Coast.
Lyndon Rive:
We really like the East Coast. Maryland is one of our best markets. If you look at whether it's volume or costs, the East Coast markets are really good for us.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith:
Got it. And just a little bit cutting back to the 2017 number, I don't want to put words too much in your mouth, but you can still have this 1 million customer target. How backend weighted is that to hit that number at this point?
Lyndon Rive:
The 1 million customer goal is definitely something that we consider when we're looking at this new focus of absolute cost reduction and being cash flow positive. So I'd say cost reduction and cash flow positive is a higher priority than the 1 million customer goal. Not giving up on the 1 million customer goal, but that's the first priority and then we'll see how things go in '17 and '18 to what we have to do to accelerate to meet the 1 million customer goal, but the focus is cost reduction and cash flow positive.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith:
Alright. And then a better within that, is there an international piece that you're thinking for 1 million customer, I just want to clarify that?
Lyndon Rive:
No, no, absolutely the international customers will be counting towards the 1 million customer goal.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith:
Great. And any expectations on where that scaling through to for your '17 growth etcetera, just as you think about that mix?
Peter Rive:
So Julien, I have to take that. So as you know we brought up in Mexico that's trending exactly as per plan, build costs of Mexico are significantly lower than they were in the U.S. just because the part of the reason is the cost of panels, there is tariff, so the cost of panel is cheaper. The build funds are great. Mexico is on track. And we're continuing to evaluate new markets and we got a couple operators where we think are attractive, which are doing a lot of work upfront, not close to what anything but liking our international place.
Lyndon Rive:
Yeah, one other point I'll make on that is, when we look at international markets, for the most markets, we're going to create the market. We're going to look at our favorable policies that have to have good sun and high cost of energy. But there is no market we can just go in and get gigawatts worth of capacity to build it. When you're building residential, you're doubling small numbers, then those numbers become bigger and bigger and stop becoming really big. So in terms of customer count, it will be adding to the million, but majority of that will be in the U.S.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith:
Great, excellent. Thank you guys.
Operator:
The next question is from Krish Sankar of Bank of America-Merrill Lynch. Please go ahead.
Krish Sankar:
Hey, thanks for taking my questions. I had a couple of them. First, it's very nice to see your focus on cost cuts and the cash flow positiveness. Just curious on the 2016 guidance, would any extension or change in language on the ITC step down change your view on the guidance for next year?
Lyndon Rive:
Yeah, just to make it absolute, yeah. This focus is streaming that there is no ITC extension, so this is why we focus on it. If there is an ITC extension, we'll have to relook at the outcome.
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, we'll likely to increase volume.
Lyndon Rive:
And actually for us it's nice to think it's going to get extended. I think it's a greater probability that it will get extended, but we have to plan for the fact that it doesn't get extended, and if it does get extended, we just have a much healthier business than any of our competitors to capitalize on that extension.
Tanguy Serra:
Yeah, and that's a real key. It's like [27], the ability to ramp up sales and operations, it's not like you are bringing a manufacturing plant that you've idled. I mean we'll be able to bring things up very quickly. So I'm not that concerned that we wouldn't be able to sail back up on that.
Krish Sankar:
Got it, alright. And then a follow-up question, do you anticipate earning level IRRs on projects deployed next year in 2016 or do you expect to raise the higher level of tax equity in securitization relative to your costs? And along the same path, if not in 2016, what kind of levered returns you expect once the tax rate steps down?
Brad Buss:
I mean, if you just look at '16 and assume some lower costs, alright, and then as Lyndon mentioned, pricing being stable to probably trending up as much, those are [both sign of test]. They are very beneficial to [inflect] to that IRR, so they're only going to get better. And for '17, it's real too early to comment on that.
Lyndon Rive:
One year at a time.
Krish Sankar:
Alright. Thanks guys.
Operator:
The next question is from Stephen Byrd of Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Q - Stephen Byrd:
Alright. Good afternoon. I wanted to [indiscernible] to 2017 and just thinking about the competitive playing field in 2017. If the ITC has not extended, just curious your take on what that really does for the smaller competitors?
Lyndon Rive:
I mean I think a short answer to that we currently have the best cost structure in the industry, we're going to have an even better cost structure, and if you don't have really low cost offer that you see expire, you can't be around. So I think that or one that I see expire is a competitive landscape, and it's going to be completely different and we're taking actions now to make sure that we continue to be the market leader at that point.
Stephen Byrd:
If you don't have a low cost structure in 2017?
Brad Buss:
A lot of people are going to be extremely challenged to get financed if they don't have the structure to begin with, never mind the availability of that financing.
Stephen Byrd:
Understood. And could that lead to potential acquisition opportunities or do you think just sticking with organic growth and focusing on your core businesses is the right way to go even in that period where you shake out?
Lyndon Rive:
It's actually one of the primary reasons why I think that 2017 will be a growth year for us, as just we're going to have the lowest cost structure and the best product, so the customers will come to us.
Peter Rive:
I don't think we need to make any acquisitions. It's not part of our plan to make any acquisitions within the states.
Lyndon Rive:
Yeah, within the U.S., yes.
Brad Buss:
Nobody else has enough scale and the cost and baggage to try to integrate it versus [indiscernible] just scaling acquiring 100 or 200 people that quite frankly would probably come from those companies anyway. It's much simpler, cheaper and less risk to do.
Stephen Byrd:
Understood. And then just separately on number of questions come about credit, but I think you laid out the FICA scores pretty clearly. Any trends in terms of as your business grows larger in terms of your credit quality, credit strength of customers, default rates, etcetera, any commentary on that?
Brad Buss:
I mean, the trends have been extremely consistent over the eight years and obviously we've done more and more business in the last few years. It's been extremely rigorous process as part of the underwriting in the ABS. You can imagine what we must go through there. So I don't see that changing at all. I mean we would like to broaden the customer reach and that will all just depend on the financing that goes with it. And then as we go international, obviously, that's a different animal, but I don't we'll change the focus of what we do being the larger rooftops and commercial.
Lyndon Rive:
Just the underlying principle of our deployment is that which are the customers list in the country paying for energy, so default rates, since they are low and then we have the choice of the other things, as we're paying [indiscernible] more, we don't have electricity, so giving us the choices, our customers pay the bills.
Stephen Byrd:
Very much understood. Thank you very much.
Operator:
The next question comes from Gordon Johnson of Axiom Capital Management. Please go ahead.
Gordon Johnson:
Thanks for taking my question, guys.
Lyndon Rive:
Sure.
Gordon Johnson:
I guess next year, just with respect to your backlog, if the ITC does indeed end, assuming it takes roughly four months to puts these things on rooftops. Could we see a significant fall off in the backlog ahead of the ITC ending?
Peter Rive:
So what we would expect to do is for commercial systems, we're probably starting as early as Q2, we're going to start pricing in a 10% ITC, so that the customers know where they are going to be in depending on the schedule for PTO for the utility in connection, so it could be as early as Q2. For residential, we'll stop seeing that impact probably happen in Q4, but at one slowdown installs, is this going to be priced, and we'll price it correctly as we will have the cost structure to be able to do that at that point.
Gordon Johnson:
Okay that's extremely helpful. And then there has been some recent discussion around some of the lending practices, I'm sure you guys have heard this, with respect to the leasing, with respect to solar rooftop. Have you guys seen any pushback with respect to some of these, I guess, conclusions around it affecting home values being more expensive versus outright owning, have you guys seen any pushback from customers or are you not seeing that?
Lyndon Rive:
At the size we are right now, we have probably about 20 to 30 customers move every single day. We haven't seen not one has failed in transferring the lease of the PPA, and often as being an additional value to it, to the house and the new homeowner likes it, so we haven't seen that. In terms of cash sales versus leases and PPAs, they are staying roughly flat for us, so our cash sales on MyPower is around 10% to 15%, it's been hovering around that number for few quarters now. So we haven't seen a big movement in the differences between the two.
Gordon Johnson:
Okay that's helpful. And then just lastly, internationally, you guys talked about expanding internationally. Forgive me, if you have already been answered this question, I was a little late to the call. Can you give us any updates on expansion internationally and what your plans are there?
Lyndon Rive:
Tanguy.
Tanguy Serra:
Sure. Hey, Gordon. As you know we have business in Mexico that continues to do well as per the plan, build costs in Mexico lower than they are in the U.S. that feels good. And we are looking at a couple more markets. We're doing a lot of work upfront and figuring out which markets you want to be in. And as Lyndon mentioned earlier, we want to be in markets where we can have a residential or commercial platform at least and not just in one vertical. Including a lot of work upfront, there is a couple markets that we like, but we are not committed to anything at this stage.
Peter Rive:
I'd characterize our international plans as being debts versus not credits versus, meaning that we are going to go into markets, execute well in that markets and when it is coming move to the next. It's not like we're going to just open up a whole bunch of markets speculatively and we're got a whole bunch of cash and see what [it takes], like we're going to into it in a very disciplined way, we're going to pick a market execute well there and then move to the next.
Lyndon Rive:
Next focus is on commercial, next will be residential and then continue from that.
Tanguy Serra:
And again Mexico was a $10 million acquisition, alright, so we're not looking to do anything massive and crazy just to guard scale. We have scale and our focus is going to be on really good returns, good markets and faces we can take our model which is extremely efficient and pairs with very good local people that know the markets and work well with us and our culture.
Lyndon Rive:
But then it would be disciplined for another country before the end of next year.
Gordon Johnson:
Excellent. Thanks again for the questions, guys.
Lyndon Rive:
Thank you.
Operator:
The next question comes from Vishal Shah of Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.
Jamie Berman:
Hey guys this is [Jamie Berman] on the line for Vishal. I apologize if this has been asked already, but I'm just trying to understand the cost levers that you have to pull here. I know you talked a little bit about customer acquisition costs, but what else do you see that could help bring down the costs going in 2017?
Tanguy Serra:
Sure, it's Tanguy. For the total costs, obviously, we got a number of things we want to do on the customer acquisition to use the cost there. On the Ops costs, there is lot of that we're going to do. So first there is, we've been rolling out a new product out of Zep that's going to make our [indiscernible] being more efficient that is really going and producing that. We've got panel prices have been roughly flat for the last eight, nine quarters, we think panel pricing would start declining that's going to produce costs, same thing on inverter prices, and then out of our 80 or so warehouses by definition there is a top 50th percentile and bottom 50th percentile. The warehouses that are slightly more expensive are because they are either newer or they having ramp up yet, and so when you take the more expensive warehouses to close to the average all those things continue to reduce costs. We're going to reducing costs on OP side of house pretty [westerly].
Lyndon Rive:
And a tough situation really is the vertical integration of the commercial.
Tanguy Serra:
And then on commercial, we used to be building costs for projects with well north of $2 on some of our core projects we're significantly, significantly below that, that won't let me give you the number, but really, really well below that.
Brad Buss:
Again just somewhat clear, the absolute operating dollars are going to continue to increase. It's not like we're cutting OpEx dollars from here down. They are going to grow at a much slower rate in the installs so that the cost per watt is dropping. And I know there has been some confusion in a few articles, I have seen, I don't' want to leave people with the thought that we're doing some massive cost reduction over night. We're going at this in a very specific manner and using our leverage and our scale to get back cost per watt down. And areas like overhead, a lot of the growth variance systems and function the departments again is coming to newer end, so it will grow much lower than the megawatts, right. So please keep in that mind if you start looking at your models and start building out your guidance and making sure that you're looking at it on a cost per watt and then backing it into the dollars, that's very important outlook for next year.
Jamie Berman:
Great and that's very helpful. And then just one other question on the international front, as you expand into new markets and obviously the OpEx associated with that. Would you expect to reinvest all cash flows or are you having to think about actual hedges aside from reinvestment in those markets?
Brad Buss:
The vast majority of it got reinvested between the growth and the financing of the business.
Jamie Berman:
Great. Thanks guys.
Operator:
The next question is from Michael Morosi of Avondale Partners. Please go ahead.
Michael Morosi:
Hey guys, thanks for taking the question. At a 350 to 400 megawatt quarter run rate, your sales team and bookings are running pretty solidly ahead of your ability to deploy the systems. Are at all concerned that some of those sales could churn off the backlog and is there anything that you can do in the near-term to clear what appears to be a building backlog?
Lyndon Rive:
So this is the one and all ramping up our installations, [so that they still catch up with them], this is the part I mentioned earlier and we're going to focus now on the lower acquisition costs, we're going to focus on the profitable customers, so you'll see the bookings and installs that didn't closer to one another, but they will still be a delta because at a 40% growth rate you still have to have a delta, but you will see the other two lines getting closer to one another.
Michael Morosi:
Okay. And then to the extent that you're beginning to optimize the overall organization and the cost structure for a post-30% ITC world. Have you thought at all about what a sustainable run rate looks like in '17 and beyond? Is it close to '16 or do you think there is room for material growth to the organization beyond that?
Lyndon Rive:
I think I understood your question. Do I think the growth rate to be higher than 40% in '17?
Michael Morosi:
No, I mean, just the ability to deliver growth from that level. What do you think is a sustainable level of annual installs?
Lyndon Rive:
Yeah, it's little early to give you the actual percentage of growth, but I'm highly confident that there would be a growth in 2016.
Michael Morosi:
Okay. Alright. And then just finally as it relates to [Silevo], how are you thinking about the potential impact to cost per watt looking out into 2017? It doesn't seem like it's going to factor in too much in '16, but is that going to be another lever to pull in terms of reducing overall cost there and by what factor?
Tanguy Serra:
Yeah, absolutely. As Lyndon said, I think we'll wait till next quarter to give better guidance cost, but a high level look, if you have a 251 watt panel versus 351 watt panel. You just need way less panels on a given house or on a given rooftop. And as a consequence, your labor costs go down proportionally. Your hardware costs go down proportionally. Your wiring costs go down proportionally. So the ripple effect of a high efficiency panel through the system is massive. The number that I have been using is relative to today's costs and it's about a $0.25 [a watt of panel].
Michael Morosi:
That's helpful. Thanks guys.
Operator:
The next question comes from Edwin Mok of Needham & Co. Please go ahead.
Edwin Mok:
Hey guys, thanks for squeezing me in. And I caught a little late if you all have touched already about it, but in terms of [Silevo] let me just talk about how long you think it will take for you to ramp up 1 gigawatt your full capacity. And then also if market sustain at much higher price with these high efficiency module, have you guys thought about selling [larger rods] and using them in the installation?
Tanguy Serra:
So we're hoping for early 2017 to be fully ramped up and then think about capacity. And yeah three is going to be a lot of incredibly differentiating things, a lot of differentiating things about SolarCity's products and services and we have [Silevo]. So I think that will further our competitive edge when we have what I believe to be the best module on the frontend.
Lyndon Rive:
But we want to keep that margin was into the -- get the benefit with our installation to keep the high efficiency for ourselves. The gigawatt facility won't even be able to supply our own needs.
Edwin Mok:
I see sort of focus is small for internal consumption, okay. That's helpful. And then on the securitization front, it sounds like that you guys are building up the MyPower loans, right. Anything can help us think about in terms of your view to market, how much do you need or how many loan contracts you need before you can really go exit the securitization market using those products? Is there a way to kind of think about it and maybe give a range of number of contracts you need or something like that?
Brad Buss:
Like I said before, it's really a function of having a compete tax equity fund, if you put in there you really can't split like in chunks, so as the funds get and it sounds like settled and go in. If you look at it from the end ABS market and it was a great thing actually. When we did that last ABS, it was in the beginning of the solar turmoil and I did a postmortem post that meeting with some of our vendors and the banks. And the biggest complaint they had is we want bigger ones and we want more frequent, and those are great problems to have. And a nice thing is, with the backlog of the financing receivable that we have that's exactly what we'll be delivering going forward. So I think we're in a good position, so we'll probably tend to get bigger than what we've historically done because our funds are technically getting bigger, so they will be bigger, and again like I said more frequent.
Edwin Mok:
Have you thought about being under radar in just securitize our home loan product and actually securitize other people's product as well, given that you also set prioritization versus the rest of the industry?
Brad Buss:
I think if you look at it, we've got a very good team that spends the time on the structuring, so that we could structure these things, get them to market quicker and manage the fees and the credit enhancements that tend to go with that. So we're going to stay very focused for quite a while.
Lyndon Rive:
One other [indiscernible] of political integration, is that you have everything all the interaction with customers, you have all the information about the customer and you have all of your cost structure, everything is available and you have all the production, so this is the reason we are the first company to be succeeded as securitization. And so taking on that some of other assets would be a big undertaking, and we just have this streamlining system within our company.
Brad Buss:
And remember it starts with that tax equity fund, right, that's the root of all of evil because that deals all the way through to the ABS, so we have to have a team that works in concert in this financing factor to make sure all of these fits smoothly. And to try to pickup someone else's wacky structure or fund or something and do it, it's really hard, and that's why you're not seeing other people being able to do the ABSs like we have or be successful at it because it's the dog's breakfast maybe between the assets and/or the structures that makes it very hard for securitize. So we will continue to leak the pack and pave the way.
Edwin Mok:
Yeah, for now I agree that there was a huge differentiation for you guys. Last question I had on commercial. Maybe you had touched on it earlier, but new guidance that you provide 1.25 gigawatts. Have you talked about how much of that will be commercial?
Brad Buss:
We have not. Next question, please.
Edwin Mok:
Yeah, I have some questions. Can you tell us roughly at what level of that would be commercial versus residential?
Lyndon Rive:
I mean it's reasonable to expect that it's across the same mix as what we've done in Q3 give or take.
Edwin Mok:
I see, okay, similar to what we have. Thank you.
Operator:
The next question comes from Pavel Molchanov of Raymond James. Please go ahead.
Pavel Molchanov:
Hey guys. Since I'm towards the end of the call, I'll ask kind of a high level one, if I may. A year ago the stock was trading at three times retained value. Today it's trading at one times retained value. What do you think went wrong?
Lyndon Rive:
I think you mean net retained value?
Pavel Molchanov:
Net retained value indeed. What's the market not getting?
Peter Rive:
I'll handle that. It's Peter Rive. It's not even net retained value, look at our economic value that we traded the EVC slide. The company this last quarter generated $239 million of value and it's very close to $1 billion run rate. For it to be where it is right now, I don't know, this is why we'd be focusing on cost, maybe the market doesn't think that we have a cost structure that can work in 2017. This why we focus in this, we'll prove it out in 2016. I hope that helps.
Pavel Molchanov:
Okay. Given the pivot to a more refocused installation model, does it still make sense for you to be in 19 states, because that number has been pretty consistently increasing almost every quarter?
Peter Rive:
Yes, so we will optimize our cost structure to make sure that every location is adding cash to the business, and so we'll absolutely look at that. And we most likely wouldn't be expanding too [Mainland] states right now, but we'll look at the existing states to see, are they adding cash to the business and for the most part they all are.
Pavel Molchanov:
Okay. That's good to hear, appreciated.
Operator:
There are no further questions at this time. This concludes today's teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.
Lyndon Rive:
Thank you.
Brad Buss:
Thank you everybody.
Operator:
Good bye.
Executives:
Aaron N. Chew - Vice President-Investor Relations Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer
Analysts:
Patrick S. Jobin - Credit Suisse Securities (USA) LLC (Broker) Brian K. Lee - Goldman Sachs & Co. Philip Lee-Wei Shen - ROTH Capital Partners LLC Andrew Hughes - Bank of America Merrill Lynch Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc. Edwin Mok - Needham & Co. LLC Ben J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker) Paul Coster - JPMorgan Securities LLC Pavel S. Molchanov - Raymond James & Associates, Inc. Noah D. Kaye - Northland Securities, Inc. Michael Morosi - Avondale Partners LLC Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Securities LLC
Operator:
Greetings and welcome to the SolarCity Second Quarter 2015 Earnings Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. A question-and-answer session will follow the formal presentation. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would now like to turn the conference over to your host, Mr. Aaron Chew, Vice President of Investor Relations. Thank you, Mr. Chew. You may begin.
Aaron N. Chew - Vice President-Investor Relations:
Thank you and good afternoon to everyone joining us today for SolarCity's second quarter 2015 earnings conference call. Leading the presentation today will be a discussion from our Chief Executive Officer, Lyndon Rive; our Chief Operating Officer, Tanguy Serra, and our Chief Financial Officer, Brad Buss, after which point in time we will open it up to questions. As a reminder, today's discussion will contain forward-looking statements that involve our views as of today based on information currently available to us. Forward-looking statements should not be considered as guarantee of future performance or results and reflects information that may change over time. Please refer to SolarCity's quarterly shareholder letter issued today, as well as the slides accompanying this presentation, as well as our periodic reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission for a discussion of forward-looking statements and the factors and risks that could cause our actual results to differ from our forward-looking statements. We do not undertake any obligation to publicly update or revise any forward-looking statements. In addition, during the course of this call, we'll use a number of specially defined terms relating to our business metrics and financial results, including non-GAAP financial metrics. We refer to the definitions of these terms and the required reconciliation between GAAP and non-GAAP financial metrics included in the shareholder letter issued today and the slides accompanying this presentation which are available on our Investor Relations website at investors.solarcity.com. With that behind us, I would like to introduce SolarCity's Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Lyndon Rive.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Thank you, Aaron. Q2 was an amazing quarter for SolarCity. We booked two new records, bookings and installs. As we look at our business, we essentially have two companies in one. We're a development company and a power company. The development company is responsible for acquiring customers and getting solar systems installed. The power company provides the financing and collects 30 years of recurring revenue for selling the energy. As we look at our company, this quarter we booked 395 megawatts. Our previous record was 237 megawatts. We installed 189 megawatts, another record for us, 77% year-over-year growth. We reduced our total cost installation to $2.91 a watt. The assets we deployed achieved their unlevered IRR of 12%. After counting our (2:44) fully loaded cost and paying back all source of financing, we created $196 million of economic value for the quarter. Now let's look at the power company. We have 262,000 customers, adding over 44,000 customers this quarter, and 86% growth year-over-year. We're well on our way to achieve our 1 million customer goal. We added $1.6 billion of normal contracted payments with a total of $7.7 billion. The power company generates a lot of cash. The last 12 months, the power company has generated $114 million. I'm excited about this number as this is the first time we've broken out the cash for the power company from our GAAP financials. Brad will cover this in more detail. I'm now going to hand you over to Tanguy Serra, our COO.
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Thanks, Lyndon. So Lyndon mentioned we had a really solid quarter of installs. We deployed 168 megawatts of residential systems and 21 megawatts of commercial systems. I' m very happy with our continued build and scale and delivering incredibly strong sales and our leadership team have continued to work hand-in-hand to offer customers an amazing experience. Housing installs grew at 86% year-on-year. And as Lyndon mentioned, we believe we have cracked the code on commercial growth through a combination of sales execution and significantly lowering our commercial install cost, allowing the commercial team to book significant profitable megawatts in Q2, and thereby ending our flattish commercial megawatt deployment record, and we expect to see substantial growth in commercial megawatts in the back half of the year. Our costs continue to climb. Our all-in costs are down 2% year-over-year, and our install costs are down 7% despite flattish power prices which speaks to the continued increased productivity of our team. Our like-for-like install costs on housing and on commercial are down versus last quarter, but in this quarter, we had a higher proportion of higher-cost projects like carports, which also carry higher PPA rates, and so the overall blend of the cost is up versus last quarter, but the like-for-like project like trend continues to be declining sequentially in cost. The sales costs and, to a certain extent, the G&A are sized for the next quarter of continued growth and to always include some element of investment to the future. We see panel prices and inverter prices coming down over the next few quarters. That, combined with the effects of our in-sourcing our commercial projects, allows us to nicely bridge the gap between the current $2.13 of what we're at and the $1.90 target cost we call for operation cost. With that, back to you, Lyndon.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Thanks, Tanguy. So with our lower commercial cost, I'm excited to announce that we're going to be entering the small and medium commercial markets. This is a massive market that has been neglected by the solar industry. Until recently, if you were a small business and you wanted solar, most of the large solar companies will not provide you with a lease or power purchase agreement and issue over 300 kilowatts in size. That included SolarCity. The two main reasons for this is cost and financing. Almost every large solar company outsources the installation of the commercial systems. This makes it extremely hard to be cost-effective on small businesses. As Tanguy mentioned, we are able to bring down the cost with the combination of doing the installation work ourselves and of a unique commercial mounting hardware system called the ZS Peak. The next big challenge is financing. Most commercial buildings that have solar today have good investment grade credit. Without good credit, it makes it hard to finance solar systems over 20 years. This makes it hard to provide financing for small businesses. In Q4 last year in California, the law change allow leases under the PACE program. PACE program is the Property Assess Clean Energy program. With the combination of our lower cost and adding the lease program to the PACE program, we are able to offer attractive financing to our small businesses. The economics to SolarCity will be very similar to our residential business with a gross retained value of around $1.90 a watt. I'll now hand over to Brad.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Thanks, Lyndon. I'm going start us off on slide seven, and as usual, we had a very busy quarter with a lot of accomplishments in our financing. As you can see, we've launched our latest ABS into the market. It's about $124 million. Unfortunately, since this offering is in the market, there's nothing further we can say or any of the details we can get into it, so we'll give you a full summary once it closes. This is the final tax equity structure to be rated for the ABS market, and we now have two rating agencies and two banks well-versed in all of our structures, and I expect a much more predictable flow going forward. With respect to tax equity, our pipeline remains very robust. In Q2, we added a new fund. We upsized an existing fund, and we ended the quarter with 447 megawatts un-deployed. We have 2015 covered, and we plan on closing additional funds with new and existing investors in the second half with a focus on selling up our 2016 needs which is proceeding very well. In addition, our revolver has been increased to support growth with additional banking partners added. Our financing factory is leading the industry in innovation and cost of capital, and we are in great shape to support our continued growth in 2016 and beyond. Economic value creation is a key metric we introduced last quarter, and it captures the total value creation to equity using our actual Q2 installs and cost for the forecast for debt. Our EVC increased 33% from Q1, driven mostly by deployment growth and lower cost. The Q2 unlevered IRR was 12%, up nicely from 11% in Q1. The NPV on a per-watt basis was approximately $1.14 per watt, suggesting a range of approximately $1 billion-plus of annualized equity value creation in 2015 based on our megawatt guidance. If we run this very same model applying the expected impact of a 10% ITC in 2017 with our 2017 cost goal, we would still maintain healthy unlevered IRRs of approximately 7.5% and an equity NPV of roughly $0.60 per watt. Now getting to the main event, as promised, we are introducing new disclosure with respect to our cash flow generated from our power company. This is very important since due to our rapid growth, the strong cash flow generated by our power company is hidden in our GAAP financials by the investment in DevCo which is driving our rapid growth. CAFD is the focus in the industry and our PAC disclosure, as we call Power Available Cash, is our proxy given that our capital structure is very different than the average YieldCo as we use tax equity and debt versus equity to fund their business. The quarterly detail we've provided includes all direct cost to manage the power business, and it is derived from our consolidated GAAP financials. We have prepared a detailed white paper that details our methodology and calculations, and it's also available on the website. The trailing 12 month PAC totaled $114 million, of which a record $41 million was produced in Q2 alone, thus, adjusting an annualized run rate at the end of Q2 closer to $160 million plus. With respect to NRV, we continue to generate strong gross as well as net retained value, and we ended the quarter with the net retained value of $3.1 billion, an increase of almost 13% quarter-on-quarter. Notably, our gross retained value per watt increased across the board and commercial rebounded back to its historic range. I'll wrap up with some guidance. For Q3, we expect to install approximately 260 megawatts, which is a very strong 90% growth rate year-on-year. We entered the quarter with record bookings, and July has continued to be very strong. We also have our usual GAAP guidance listed on the slide for your reference. For the full year 2015, we're aligning our full-year guidance to megawatts installed versus deployed, which is consistent with the way we've been providing our guidance for the last two quarters and is the way we'll provide guidance going forward. As such, we expect to install 920 megawatts to 1,000 megawatts for 2015. Remember, deployments tend to lag this number by several weeks on average due to our large volume and the scheduling of third-party inspections. In summary, I think we had a great Q2 and I expect an even better Q3. As a company, we remain very focused on rapid growth, lowering costs and driving higher equity returns to our shareholders. I'll now turn the call back to Lyndon.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Thanks, Brad. Okay, let's wrap things up. I really want to explain how the management team thinks about the company and the equity value that we are creating. We have a power company. The power company has 1.4 gigawatts of deployed assets generating gigawatt-hours. For the last year, the power company has generated $140 million of cash, and those assets will be stepping up to $166 million in the next six years or seven years post the tax equity flux. This cash flow is contracted with investment-grade entities and high FICA scores. If we were to stop the business today, we would collect $9 billion over the next 30 years. Using a 6% discount rate, the net retained value of the power company is over $3 billion. We also have an amazing development company with over 12,000 employees selling a product that is cheaper and cleaner than the alternative. We install one out of every three homes in the U.S. We also have the best safety record and the lowest cost in the country. When we deploy a watt, we create a cash per stream of $0.07 per year. If you discount that back, it's worth a little over $1 a watt for our freeholders. (13:04) Over the last six months, we've deployed 342 megawatts and created $343 million of value. We keep this value in our balance sheet and then we put it onto the power company. For the year, we plan to install 922,000 megawatts, which should create around $920 million to $1 billion of value, growing at 86%. We feel really good about the company and we also feel really good about the company post-ITC reduction. We believe that our cost structure will allow us to thrive post-ITC reduction and generate $0.60 per watt for equity value. Now we'll open up to questions.
Operator:
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now be conducting a question-and-answer session. Our first question comes from the line of Patrick Jobin from Credit Suisse. Please proceed with your question.
Patrick S. Jobin - Credit Suisse Securities (USA) LLC (Broker):
Congrats (14:16) on the new records and the IRRs. First question for me just on, I guess, the cash flow number, looking at that, before deducting the amortizing debt – or partially amortizing debt, I guess about $185 million annualized in Q2. I guess some of those megawatts have been added late Q2 as well. So, I guess, one, is that the right way to think about it? And then, two, looking at the capital structure for the PowerCo, just help us understand kind of how you're thinking about optimizing that capital structure and anything to do for equity there. Thanks.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah. Hey, thanks, Patrick. It's Brad. So, I think – yeah, I mean, your quick math on your intro to your question, I think, is a good way to look at it. And remember, with the rate that we're adding stuff, stuff that's constantly added throughout the quarter, right? So we've given historical stuff. I mean, obviously, we'll start looking at some more forward-looking stuff on a going-forward basis that I'm sure you'll all be asking for that. But we think it's very important that you kind of get grounded in kind of the past. There's a lot of assumptions you can do and we'll provide, so you could see it going forward. And I think as far as the capital structure, I mean, we're very flexible as you could see. We've led the way in the securitization. We got a couple other things that we're working through. I think you'll continue to see us drive innovation where it can because our focus is on not only lowering those costs, but lowering that cost of capital as well.
Patrick S. Jobin - Credit Suisse Securities (USA) LLC (Broker):
Got it. And then my second question, just thinking about organizational constraints. So 260 megawatts for Q3 installation, I guess that implies about 360 megawatts at the midpoint for Q4. Just the level of comfort around the organizational capacity, given you're doing some more of the commercial work yourself. And then a sub-part question, just thinking about the mix of commercial in back half, given some of your comments there would be helpful. And then, sorry, last sub-point, I think you've already brought this up, but $900 million to $1 billion in value – or equity value created this year implies some pretty stable returns. I just want to make sure I'm interpreting that comment correctly given the mix. Thanks.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
So, Tanguy, why don't you go ahead and answer the install questions, and then I'll go ahead and talk about the equity value.
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Sure. Yeah, thanks. We've provided a couple (16:48) on scaling – we have been scaling historically at that growth rate, and the most important piece of when you scale is to build the infrastructure to be able to scale, and so things like training centers, training programs close to the university, they're all built out, and so we're able to hire, onboard, train and get installs in the roofs in a way that makes a lot of sense. And there's a fair bit of software and algorithms that go into predicting where and when those crews will be needed, and so we feel very, very good about being able to do scaling as we have historically.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. One thing I want to add on that as well is the commercial bookings, we had early commercial bookings in Q1 and not so good commercial bookings in Q2. And the big delay for commercial is the permit. And, of course, to book them early in the year, the permits should come out in time for us to get it, so that's another reason that makes it easier to ramp up by the end of the year.
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
To specifically answer your question, the mix of commercial as a percentage will increase in the back half of the year.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
And regarding the equity value, this is why we've added the extra disclosures, so you can calculate the $0.07 per watt that we generate. If you discount it back to today, it's roughly about $1 a watt – a little over $1 a watt. And so that's the reason for the extra disclosure. The company is growing extremely well and it creates tremendous value at every watt we deploy.
Patrick S. Jobin - Credit Suisse Securities (USA) LLC (Broker):
Thank you.
Aaron N. Chew - Vice President-Investor Relations:
Operator?
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Brian Lee from Goldman Sachs. Please proceed with your question.
Brian K. Lee - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Hey, guys. Thanks for taking the questions. So, if I look at your average megawatts in installed base over the past 12 months on the same trailing 12-month basis that you're looking at this cash available for distribution metric that you're disclosing, it implies an unlevered number of somewhere around $0.14 to $0.15 a watt and then levered per watt right at around $0.10. Is that a fair way to think about the generation potential and future megawatt growth? And then I had a follow-up.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Yes, I mean, it's definitely in the ballpark. I mean, there's different things that impact that depending on some of our structures and prepayments, yada, yada, yada, but you're always going to have that. That's why we thought I wanted to give you that trailing 12 so you could kind get a view, seasonality, yada, yada, yada. But your concept is the right way to look at it.
Brian K. Lee - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Okay, fair enough. That's helpful. And, Brad, follow-up for you and you've kind of already alluded to it. But last quarter, you cited that the availability of capital was at an all-time high and you guys have obviously done a great job in adding some tax equity capacity since the end of last year. But as we move closer to 2016, how should we be thinking about general tax equity availability for new funds, which I would presume are going to start being slated for 2017 volumes? So question would just be about how the 10% credit impacts the volume of tax equity and also the cost and maybe if you're getting any early indications from the banks. Thanks.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah. I think the big thing you'll see is, obviously, a lot of stuff on the utility scale that's expected to obviously dry up pretty heavy. We've seen dollars that were allocated to wind moving over, and we're actually seeing some people that were playing more in the low-income housing credits coming into this market. So if anything, I think the moves toward distributed solar are picking up much quicker than we expected. The companies we're dealing with have remained very profitable. A lot of banks that were underwater for a while are coming back. They now have possible income that they want to manage. So I think net-net, the market is actually better and bigger, and I think to where you're going, I think terms and with our size and, more importantly, the frequency and consistency that we can deliver is being very well noticed. And we get a lot of people that are, like, why would I want to deal with anybody else because you guys have got the track record? We have a great machine on the front and back end and we – most importantly, we deliver to these guys on when they need it. So I'm very comfortable for 2016 and, who knows where 2017 will go, but I don't think that will be an issue.
Brian K. Lee - Goldman Sachs & Co.:
Okay. Thanks, guys.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Philip Shen from ROTH Capital Partners. Please proceed with your question. Philip Shen, your line is live.
Philip Lee-Wei Shen - ROTH Capital Partners LLC:
Hey, can you hear me now?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yes. We can.
Philip Lee-Wei Shen - ROTH Capital Partners LLC:
Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my questions. It looks like you've reduced your 2015 outlook by an implied 6% by shifting guidance and the units from deployed to installed. And what drove the decision to change the units and what would it take for you to hit the high end of the revised guidance? And can you elaborate a bit more on what your bottlenecks might be causing the shift? Thanks.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yes. So, yeah, we did change that. We changed it from deployed to install. We can control install, and what we noticed happened last year, as we had the large volume, the mad rush going into November, December, the city departments and the utility inspectors that can't keep up with us, and so that's the constraint. In order to hit that, you have to then take in two weeks or a month earlier, and if you look at our monthly run rate, it wouldn't be – we wouldn't be able to get that deployed number by the end of the year, although the install number, we feel very good about.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
And I think, from my perspective, we just want to be very consistent. We've had a few people that, in conversations and modeling has (23:04) installed, deployed, and we want to be on the same page we could control it. And again, we're very confident in the install which is the most important thing, from our perspective, as we – if we don't get installed, nothing else is going to matter.
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
I'd just add, just to give you some color, we feel very, very good about the deployment numbers and install numbers that we're giving out here, things that could swing it between the bottom and the top of the range. As Lyndon said, at the run rate that we'll be at towards the end of the year, it's 50 megawatts, it's two weeks' worth of volume. It – permit times, extending two weeks on a given project, could swing between bottom and top of the range, but it really doesn't change the fundamental economics. It's really is – it's weeks of timing as opposed to whether we will install them or not.
Philip Lee-Wei Shen - ROTH Capital Partners LLC:
Great. Thanks, everyone. As for my follow-up, can you give us your latest view on how you expect megawatts to scale in 2016 and potentially into 2017 as well?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yes. Good question. We're not ready really yet to give a forecast for 2016, but we're confident that our growth would be above the industry growth for 2016, so we'll be just – we're just not yet ready to give a megawatt install for 2016.
Philip Lee-Wei Shen - ROTH Capital Partners LLC:
Great. Thank you.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. Next question?
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Sankar Krish from Bank of America. Please proceed with your question.
Andrew Hughes - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Hey, guys. This is Andrew on for Krish. A quick question on the deployment versus install breakdown, just curious if you had an estimate of where deployments would be in 2015. And the main part of the question is really how – what are the implications of this going into next year with – as far as getting installations qualified for the investment tax credit? Will that be an issue if you have something on a roof installed by the end of – in mid-December 2016 but it doesn't get approval or is officially deployed until sometime in 2017? Does that raise some ITC issues?
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Let me take the first part. In our press release, we show you installs and deployed and we're going to continue to show you those information. We're just not going to guide to it, just so we're clear. So you'll always see that information when it happens and we'll put it out there, just so we're clear on that. But it's too hard to guide to right now. I mean, the amount of commercial and the hundreds of jurisdictions we're dealing with, it's all over the place, especially with Christmas. So we'll be glad to provide the information, talk about it historically, but it's too hard to predict.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. It should range between two to three weeks in delay, so roughly speaking. So whatever (26:11), that number will grow, but you have to look at it weeks of megawatts installed versus total megawatts being deployed. There's a difference between installed and deployed.
Andrew Hughes - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Right.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
In terms of the second question, yes, absolutely, this would be a concern on especially larger projects that have to PTO in time for the ITC. This will have to be included into our guidance and has to be built in as we look at selling. The way we would look at it, however, for most of the projects, this is more applicable for the commercial projects that don't (26:51) without it, but for most of the projects that we were deploying, we will continue to just install and have a $0.60 per watt economic value creation instead of over $1 but, yes, we'll just continue.
Andrew Hughes - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Great. And then just on the PowerCo cash flow modeling, thanks for that and all the incremental detail. When you look into 2017, just curious if you guys can comment on how quickly do tax equity obligations ramp down and versus how quickly sort of interest and amortization might ramp up as the financing mix renew installs changes, in other words, do you have legacy tax equity obligations that you'll have to pay but since new systems will be potentially more debt-financed, the interest and the amortization requirements increase? Thanks.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah. Way to in the future.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
But I'm not sure I understand your question, though.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Andrew, are you asking sort of the extent to which your pre – your 30% ITC stuff kind of rolls off as the 10% roll ins and the pace with which that happens?
Andrew Hughes - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Yes, exactly. If your obligations to tax equity stay kind of where they are entering 2017 for a while as those legacy 30% deals continue to get paid off, but as new installs are being debt-financed, your interest and amort payments might increase as well?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yes. So, essentially, what happened is we'll do less tax equity, more debt. Nothing changes with the past systems. Those obligations stay exactly the same. All the systems to deploy in 2016 are going to have similar obligations to what you're seeing in 2015. In 2017, on a 10% ITC, we'll be raising less tax equity so we'll be giving less of the cash flows to the tax equity investors and then more of the cash flows to debt providers. I think that answers your question (29:02).
Andrew Hughes - Bank of America Merrill Lynch:
Thanks, guys. Yes.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Vishal Shah from Deutsche Bank. Please proceed with your question.
Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.:
Yes. Hi. Thanks for taking my question. In the near term, have you seen any change in the margin pricing environment because of the change in the trade case ruling for some of the Chinese companies that the prices (29:23) have gone up a little bit? And then can you maybe give us color about your international strategy, are you starting to look at some of the international markets as you look beyond looking at 2016 (29:34)? Thank you.
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Sure. I'll answer the first one and then how much Lyndon will ask me to – we'll, let Lyndon answer (29:43) the second one, but on the first one, yeah, we're seeing – we're clearly seeing exactly you described module prices have been flattish for the last several quarters, last five to six quarters, and we're seeing now pricing start to come down. There's a number of really high-quality module manufacturers both in China and outside of China for which we are grateful partners that are seeing their price reductions from these quarters, so that is really good when we look at our cost target.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. And on the international markets, we're absolutely very interested in looking at international markets. There are many international markets where the equity value creation is really good without any incentives, so it's just pure on the fundamentals. So, yeah, we are looking at those and stay tuned.
Aaron N. Chew - Vice President-Investor Relations:
Operator, next question?
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Edwin Mok from Needham & Company. Please proceed with your questions.
Aaron N. Chew - Vice President-Investor Relations:
Ed, are you there?
Operator:
Your line is live. Edwin?
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Do you have us on mute? Why don't we come back to him?
Operator:
Okay.
Edwin Mok - Needham & Co. LLC:
Hello. Can you hear me?
Operator:
Yes, we can.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
There we go.
Edwin Mok - Needham & Co. LLC:
Hey. Sorry about that. So I understand you guys have the ABS on the row (31:18) and can't talk too much about it. But can you actually clarify two things? First is this ABS is only for the historical lease project, it doesn't include any MyPower? And then related to that question, how much MyPower (31:37) contract do you think you need to build up to before you can actually do a MyPower ABS?
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Edwin, we really can't talk about that deal. So I would suggest maybe realigning your question.
Edwin Mok - Needham & Co. LLC:
But then my question relate to MyPower ABS, maybe any way you can quantify how much do you think you can build up – you need to build up in MyPower contracts before you can do a MyPower ABS?
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
We really don't want to talk about ABS right now, if you don't mind.
Edwin Mok - Needham & Co. LLC:
Okay. Okay. That's...
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
On MyPower, just like when we would do – if we were to do ABS on MyPower, yeah, it has to be worthwhile to get into large enough size to go through the transaction.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
It's easier and, well, like Lyndon said, we're building up the assets. And then we'll look at the back-leveraging at the time that's appropriate. And if ABS is the right vehicle, away it goes.
Edwin Mok - Needham & Co. LLC:
Right. Yeah. I kind of agree with that. It seems like it should be much easier. And then thanks for providing the PowerCo cash flow information. That was very helpful. Any way we can kind of think about – as I walk through that, right, so obviously, you guys are financing a lot of it with debt, right? Any way we can kind of think about how much – what kind of interest rate we should expect? As we look forward, how do we think about interest rate that we should expect that need to – you guys need to pay to finance those cash flow? Any kind of way you can kind of help us think about that?
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Could you clarify exactly what you're asking?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
So we...
Edwin Mok - Needham & Co. LLC:
So...
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
We disclosed our interest rates. So you have that.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Are you for – yeah. I'm a little unclear what exactly you're asking, Edwin.
Edwin Mok - Needham & Co. LLC:
Yeah. So, I mean, you guys disclosed – I can use the historical information to get a rough idea of what rate, what your blended interest rate are right now for your debt that you have, right. Is there a way we can kind of think about that longer term? What rate do you – is it – because you guys have a lot of different debt – different type of financing, right, debt financing. So it's kind of hard for us to figure out how much of which each component of that is baked into the MyPower debt.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
I mean, there's two elements obviously, right, what happens with rates, and then the corresponding offset hopefully is where does our credit spread continue to go, right? Our paper is doing really well. We'll talk across the securitization once it's done, but we're moving in the right direction. The assets are great. So we're in that low 4s now, and it's just a reflection of where those two net out. I think we're going to be comfortably well below all of our competitors out there and, more importantly, below the 6% we've been using for a lot of our present value calculations. So you tell me where rates are going to go and then I'll fill in the rest.
Edwin Mok - Needham & Co. LLC:
Yes, okay. Right, hey, thanks very much. I appreciate your answer.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
All right, thank you.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Tyler Frank from Robert W. Baird. Please proceed with your question.
Ben J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
Hey, guys. It's Ben from Baird. Thanks for all these disclosures there. My question was on any kind of bottlenecks you're seeing in construction crews out there? We've heard some of that and I just want to see where you guys are in your hiring for installation crews and as we look ahead to 2016 how you feel versus some of the competitors out there that aren't vertically integrated?
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Yeah. I think you answered your question, really grateful for that. Being vertically integrated is the key to this stuff which is – we call it – you can use the bicycle chain analogy or whatever analogy you want to use for tension which is, if you've got a pipeline of sales coming through and then a fast deployment and a high-quality deployment of audit and then a call center in Las Vegas with over 1,000 people taking the calls, handling the customer care issues, going through the paperwork and then pushing that out to the field with permitting and ultimately creating jobs for installers, that tension is what creates success. So what that does is that it allows us to pay people well obviously, because we've got a really sophisticated form of incentive pay for installers. And the more jobs that they filter through, the more job they get paid, which creates a really, really positive tension in the organization. And then the other thing it does is that, because we are able to pay higher wages in the industry comparables at a lower cost because our utilization is significantly higher, it allows us to attract and recruit the best in the industry as well as from other industries because, as I said, we're able to pay more than comparable jobs. And I think that's the key to all of this stuff which is install is all about really, really having a really strong focus on productivity. If you focus on productivity and you focus on kilowatts installed per crew and keep that really high, you can pay people more. If you can pay people more, you tend to attract the best; and if you attract the best, then your productivity is high. And so that positive cycle associated with the vertical integration that you mentioned is the key to all this.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. In terms of our bottleneck, hiring install crews is not top of the list. The biggest bottleneck that we face is picking up from booking to getting it ready for installation. And that's dealing with all the permitting, that's getting – going back to the customers, finalizing the design, back and forth customers on vacation, that to us is our biggest bottleneck, and taking it from a booking to actually getting it ready for installation. The installation itself, as Tanguy mentioned, we need (37:36) really good processes to ramp that up.
Ben J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co., Inc. (Broker):
All right. Thank you very much.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Paul Coster from JPMorgan. Please proceed with your question.
Paul Coster - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Yes. Thanks very much for taking my question. But just on I think the economic value creation, page 8 or 9, that your capacity factors seem to go down a little bit, is this because of a geographic sort of mix shift towards (38:06) or is there something else going on?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
I don't understand your capacity factor, what do you mean by that?
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah, how are you calculating that, Paul?
Paul Coster - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
4 hours per annum, it seems to have come down a little bit relative to the price (38:21).
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Okay. Okay.
Unknown Speaker:
(38:23)
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. So, that's a mix (38:25) increasing in terms of percentage of our installations. So, that's just the mix.
Paul Coster - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Right. Got it. Okay. And then can you tell us anything about FICO scores and where you're headed and ultimately here and maybe also what kind of default rates you're seeing at the moment, if anything?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. So, on FICO scores, I mean, our goal as a company is to get to point where we can solar affordable to everyone.
Paul Coster - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Yeah.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
So, that's – we're going to try and do – we're going to do more and more innovation to achieve that goal. So, that's make solar affordable to everyone. Right now, if you take the history of the company, we went from 725 down to 700 down to 680 down to 650 [FICO score] and now we have to figure out how do we make it possible for everybody in America to get cheaper, cleaner energy, and so that's – we just have to solve that. In terms of the actual default, it's...
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
They're miniscule.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
I mean, best thing to look at is the last securitizations that we've done. That describes it really well.
Paul Coster - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah. Real quick follow-up. Just to clarify Lyndon's comments, the numbers he gave you are our bottom, our minimum. They don't represent our actual average. Our average is still comfortably in the 700s, 730, 740. Yeah. So, you're not going to see that mix change too quickly. And, yeah, the delinquency – even just aging is well below normal, it's sub-1% just age stuff, and as far as true write-ups, it's a couple of handfuls. And it's usually due to an unfortunate circumstance.
Paul Coster - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Right. Okay, got it. And then lastly if you could give us quick update on the manufacturing capacity up in New York State labor, and what's your latest thinking on when that comes online and starts contributing towards the lower costs?
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Yeah. We're excited about that. We're still on track. We'll have the buildings ready towards the end of this year and the equipment getting installed in H1 next year. And then ramping up and being at full capacity in 2017. And that will significantly contribute to reduction in costs both because the panels themselves on a dollars-per-watt basis will be cheaper, but also because they're higher efficiency panels and, as a consequence, all of these per panel costs will come down on per watt basis.
Paul Coster - JPMorgan Securities LLC:
Okay. Thank you very much.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Pavel Molchanov from Raymond James. Please proceed with your questions.
Pavel S. Molchanov - Raymond James & Associates, Inc.:
Thanks for including me, guys. Can I ask about the small business opportunity? So you talk about how it's in the donut hole? There are no FICO scores the way you have in resi, but you don't have corporate credit ratings either. So, how are you going to decide which small businesses are creditworthy to sign a lease and which ones are not?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yes. That's a really good question. So, this new program, it's actually not that new, but it's new to leases and power purchase agreements. It's called the PACE program. That's essentially a program that allows you to tie the lease payment to the property tax of the building. And so, with that, you essentially take a – building on our customer that it was hard to underwrite the credit to automatically an investment-grade credit. So it's really, really strong credit, in fact stronger than most investment-grade credit. And so now you can use that and then you could finance the systems, and so then the key thing is to tie it to that. And it's available right now in California. We expect that the results of this will show other states to follow it, because the PACE program is actually deployed to about 14 states, but California is the first to allow leases under that program, and the whole purpose of the program is to allow building owners to make an operational – building upgrade to the building that reduces operating costs. So any business that actually does this, the business actually becomes healthier and using the property tax to pay for it.
Pavel S. Molchanov - Raymond James & Associates, Inc.:
Okay, understood. And is this viable so this approach that you outlined, this is applicable in all of the states where you're going to be rolling out the small business product?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
So, we need the law to change to allow lease – so, PACE program is in about 14 states. But what changed in California last year would allow a lease program under the PACE program. So, that's a key change. So they're only available right now in California, and so we expect that to roll out to other states as the state see the job growth and the movement of small commercial, because PACE has been around for commercial for four years or five years, and the adoption has still been very low. But if you combine PACE and lease, we are convinced that the adoption will increase dramatically. The example I could give, it's actually very similar to what the residential business market was back in 2007, and there was financing available for residential back in 2007, but you had to go get home equity loan and finance the solar system, really hard and a lot of work to do to pay in for commodity. Now we make it easy. We take care of everything and we just provide them a lower cost source of energy. One other key thing, which you may have picked up in the media report is the lease payment is locked in, so the value proposition for the small business is tremendous. They save money – call it about 5% to 25% from day one, and the lease payment is locked in at that rate for the next 20 years.
Pavel S. Molchanov - Raymond James & Associates, Inc.:
Okay. And then just quickly on the geographic footprint, I think you went into three new states just in the past 90 days, New Mexico, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island, should we expect a similar pace of new state entries, or are you kind of reaching a more maybe a natural limit at this point in your footprint?
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Yeah. As Lyndon said, our ambition is to provide solar to everyone, and we're really working hard on that. The key to providing solar to everyone is continue to lower cost. As and when we continue to lower cost and we have the regulatory regimes in states that allow us to create economic value, we will open in those states, as you say we opened three. We've got a couple more that we're evaluating and likely to open pretty quickly. And then as we continue to lower costs, we'll be able to open more states. But now those are the ones we're going to open (45:59).
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. Some states' policy needs to change. Like you have Florida, which should be a good market, but there needs to be some policy change there to make solar work in progress. So as those things happen, we'll have to expand in.
Pavel S. Molchanov - Raymond James & Associates, Inc.:
All right. Appreciate it, guys.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Colin Rusch from Northland Capital Markets. Please proceed with your question.
Noah D. Kaye - Northland Securities, Inc.:
Hi, gentlemen. This is Noah Kaye in for Colin. Let's just pick up on the last question, which turned to a discussion of policy. I think in your letter, you mentioned Nevada and Hawaii as kind of a near-term policy focus, where I guess the industry is playing a bit of defense on the net metering. So where do you see the incremental opportunities for progressive policy? What are you putting most of your focus on these days?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
So I'm highly optimistic where we end up in Hawaii, California and New York. I think these are the three states that are going to look at how did the utility and solar industry of the future look like, and they are going to come up with programs that allow and continue to generate the adoption of renewable energy. So those are the three states that have closest understanding of it and the solutions will be quite right (47:25).
Noah D. Kaye - Northland Securities, Inc.:
Okay. Turning to a different topic, looking at sales cost and thinking about sales cost efficiency, you had a record bookings number in the quarter that's a high denominator. Year-over-year sales cost are still picking up. Can you help us understand and maybe better tease out how you're thinking about driving down those sales cost over time, and what your expectations are to lower the acquisition, cost process?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. So, the acquisition cost is actually quite tied to our growth as well. If you do look at – a lot of the acquisition cost today is referrals. And it's the largest source of our new customers. And so, if we were to stand (48:24) on the growth, the acquisition cost would come down dramatically. So that last mile (48:29) and reaching those extra customers who have never thought of solar before and then spending money to get them excited about it, (48:37), we are going to start trying to sell over the Web. We are establishing new partners as you may see, we have established a partnership with DIRECTV. We have one with Best Buy and Home Depot, and those partners are still doing well. But the acquisition cost it's seeming to stay flattish, and slightly increase, but flattish and unless we succeed at really funneling it through the Web or changing the sales process and getting more units through the same sales team that's where we have to get there. It's not ideal. I'd like it to be a little lower.
Noah D. Kaye - Northland Securities, Inc.:
Understood. Thank you
Operator:
Our next question comes from Michael Morosi from Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question.
Michael Morosi - Avondale Partners LLC:
Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my question and appreciate the incremental disclosures here. First, cost per watt, installation costs were up quarter-over-quarter, and I was wondering if you could maybe help quantify the impact from the investments that you're making in capacity and maybe any under-absorption that happened there as those costs were up quarter-over-quarter. And then also, C&I was called out as being a driver of higher cost in the quarter, which kind of surprised me, because I would have expected C&I installation costs to be lower on a per watt basis, and then I have a follow-up.
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Sure. A couple of things; so one is, on a like-for-like basis if you look at housing, rooftops for commercial, ground mount for commercial, carports for commercial, on a like-for-like all the costs are down sequentially. So housing is down. It costs us less this quarter than last quarter to install a given house. This quarter in Q2 we had a number of higher cost projects, including in particular carports, which have a higher cost per watt than the average blend. And so when you pull those through the financials, the blended cost goes up. So it's a mix effect. Now, as I mentioned earlier, the price – the PPA price of those carports is also higher, and so even though the dollars – the costs are higher, the revenue associated with that is also higher. So it's somewhat of a mix effect on the cost. On a like-for-like basis, the costs continue to decline. We really cracked the code on being able to grow without having excess capacity and hiring just in time. If you don't do that, your cost is just too high really, really quick. And so we're very focused on that. That was, I think, the first part of your question. Do you have a second part?
Michael Morosi - Avondale Partners LLC:
Yeah. And I think you touched on it a little bit, but just the mix of C&I and where those higher costs come from and what (51:45)...?
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Yeah. So, it's counterintuitive. But when you subcontract out a commercial install, it actually costs you more than it would cost us to do a residential install. I think that speaks more to our residential quality and the quality of our install teams. A lot of our installers are truly heroes and we're able to get amazing cost on the resi space. And so, the – counterintuitively, our commercial costs have historically been higher than our resi cost. And when we're insourcing the commercial jobs, we're seeing some phenomenal costs on the commercial side, which we feel really, really good about and that's going to drag down the blended cost very substantially, and I think which gives us a lot of comfort in $1.90 build cost for 2017.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
And which opens up a whole new market for us.
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
That's right. And I think – let me raise a key point here, which is – there's a number of roofs in commercial that we have a phenomenal product for because we've been able to crack the code on costs.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. I mean, in terms of roof space, small commercial is a bigger market than large commercial, so it's a big market.
Michael Morosi - Avondale Partners LLC:
Okay. Thanks for that. And then...
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
(52:57) so one point just for – when we do the commercial cost of sales, we're able to use ZS Peak, or a number of our Zep products. And so that we really get the benefit of having a better mounting hardware, which also is part of the trick here.
Michael Morosi - Avondale Partners LLC:
All right. Thanks, guys. Appreciate that color. And then, as a follow-up...
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
One more thing on that same point. Well, hold on. We're not giving up on this thing. I feel like (53:20) I should give an explanation of like, how long it used to take us when we subbed it versus if we do it ourselves.
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Yeah. So, I mean, this is a fascinating topic. We've spent a lot of our time on it. We really, really think we can take a lot of cost out of commercial. So a typical big-box retailer used to take about 26 days, 27 days to install and with great subcontractors, super high quality, but when we do the job ourselves, with our people, SolarCity employees, our awesome people, our training, our methods, our approach, our culture, it takes three days. And so that's a dramatic difference, obviously, in fixed cost because the crane and all of the associated fixed costs that you've paid per day just dramatically collapse. And the other thing it does is for a big-box retailer, who obviously every day of construction on a roof is a pain, being able to take less than 27 days to three days has become a compelling and powerful sales argument for our sales team. And so we're winning a lot of business on that base of just being lower cost, faster, better, safer than competitors out there.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. In fact, people don't believe us, so we created a video to show you how we can do it in three days versus 27 days. You'll see it.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
With less people.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
(54:36)
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
We'll be posting it on our website.
Michael Morosi - Avondale Partners LLC:
Very good. And I have a feeling this answer might be a little bit shorter, but yeah, I can't help but notice that you called out the CAFD per share of being $1.18, so that begs some obvious comparisons across the YieldCo space and a healthy discussion around any premiums maybe associated with lack of dilution that it takes to grow that CAFD, but also it maybe begs the question of whether – or how close we might be to seeing any kind of cash return to shareholders?
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Cash return to a SolarCity shareholder, I don't think you're going to see it for a long, long, long time. Our goal is every dollar we're making we're reinvesting it as fast as we can driving the growth until (55:35) solar penetration is (55:39) 50% or 60% of the world. I think the return to the shareholder is going to be far greater if we continue to grow and spread the solar love.
Michael Morosi - Avondale Partners LLC:
All right. I appreciate it. Thanks, guys.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Julien Dumoulin-Smith from UBS. Please proceed with your question.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Securities LLC:
Hey, good afternoon.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Hi, Julien.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Securities LLC:
Hey. So first quick question, ABS not to get too touchy, but how frequently do you guys expect to come to the market now, just hopefully ironing out the issues associated with it, but should we expect a pretty regular frequency at this point and (56:15)?
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
We're not going to comment on ABS.
Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Julien, Brad is looking like – no, we're not going to answer that question.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Yeah. (56:23).
Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Securities LLC:
I tried, right.
Unknown Speaker:
(56:26)
Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Securities LLC:
Fair enough. And then just on the commercial effort here you guys are talking about. I mean obviously, it's somewhat exciting, but could you help quantify that in terms of the megawatt opportunity in terms of leveraging pace? I mean, it seems kind of like a step-change if you can kind of provide some perspective, both maybe in the back half of this year as you think about that contributing to your targets and then subsequently in years onwards if you can kind of talk to it, maybe while we're at it, margin to the extent possible as well?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. So I think the next quarter is going to be very telling. So we cracked the nut on the cost. We've cracked the nut on financing, now that you cracked the next nut and that is, every – it's going to be the same process as our residential. Everyone signs the same contracts. There's no negotiating, nothing. This is what you get. This is what you pay for, and we love your cost of energy. So that sales process we just launched it on Tuesday. We have to express that sales process to really give you a better forecast. And so the next earnings call we'll be able to give you a lot more insight into what – how that division is doing. But in terms of market size, it is the second biggest market in the country
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
And more importantly the returns are on par, right, with our resi business?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. Gross retained value should be around the $1.90 a watt or so.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Securities LLC:
Okay. So it's similar?
Unknown Speaker:
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker:
Yeah.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Securities LLC:
And then just – and you kind of alluded to it earlier in terms of policy for PACE, I mean, are you seeing adoption elsewhere, if you can kind of speak to that and where – what is your expectation for the adoption if you have one in other states?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
On PACE?
Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Securities LLC:
Yeah.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
So PACE has a great – it's a great story. It creates a lot of jobs and reduces the operating cost of the building, and it's a good program to enable small businesses to use clean energy. And so, I am convinced that as soon as policymakers see the amount of job growth that we're creating with this program in California and the amount of savings we can give to the small businesses, then that they would just change their policy because they already have the program in place. They just got to say that it's allowed for leases. Then so it's not a big – look, it's not bring in a whole new – they're not creating the PACE program. It's just making a modification to include leases.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Securities LLC:
Right. But no necessary for a timeline or forecast or expectations on specific addition dates, et cetera?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
I'm expecting first half of next year.
Julien Dumoulin-Smith - UBS Securities LLC:
Got you. All right. Great. Thank you.
Operator:
We do have a follow-up question from the line of Patrick Jobin from Credit Suisse. Please proceed with your question.
Patrick S. Jobin - Credit Suisse Securities (USA) LLC (Broker):
Hi. Thanks for taking the follow-up. I really appreciate it. So bonus fees (01:00:04) on 2017 at the cost target, which I guess is only 14% cost decline to get to that $0.60 of NPV. It looks like the market doesn't give you much credit post-2017. But what other assumptions are going into that $0.60? Am I correct to assume you're kind of just looking at isolating that ITC impact, and you're not including any utility rate increases? And then my second question kind of aligns with that, have you seen any traction with a larger set of customers in California given the AB 327 rate tier compression having more customers potentially viable for solar?
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Yeah. So, first part, you are correct. We're assuming pricing – there's not much movement on pricing. It's a combination of cost reduction and less cash going to the (01:00:58) investors. That gets us to the $0.60 a watt. In terms of market increase in California, people in the know know it; most of the consumers don't quite know it yet. We're excited about it as it will increase our base. The challenge has never been the top tier. The challenge has always been the smaller homes or the homes that use less energy. Now at our $0.15 offering, every customer will see a savings. So, we like it.
Patrick S. Jobin - Credit Suisse Securities (USA) LLC (Broker):
Right. Thanks. Great quarter.
Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer:
Thanks, everybody.
Lyndon R. Rive - Chief Executive Officer & Founder:
Thank you and then have a great day. We're done, operator.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, this does conclude today's teleconference. Thank you for your participation. You may disconnect your lines at this time and have a wonderful day.
Executives:
Aaron Chew - Vice President, Investor Relations Lyndon Rive - Chief Executive Officer Brad Buss - Chief Financial Officer Tanguy Serra - Chief Operating Officer Peter Rive - Chief Technology Officer
Analysts:
Patrick Jobin - Credit Suisse Brian Lee - Goldman Sachs Philip Shen - ROTH Capital Partners Krish Sankar - Bank of America Merrill Lynch Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank Tyler Frank - Robert W. Baird & Company, Inc. Edwin Mok - Needham and Company
Operator:
Greetings and welcome to the SolarCity First Quarter 2015 Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. A brief question-and-answer session will follow the formal presentation. [Operator Instructions] As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce your host Aaron Chew, Vice President of Investor Relations for SolarCity. Thank you, Mr. Chew, you may begin.
Aaron Chew:
Thank you and good afternoon to all those joining us today for SolarCity's first quarter and 2015 earnings conference call. Leading the presentation today will be a discussion from our Chief Executive Officer, Lyndon Rive and our Chief Operating Officer, Tanguy Serra and our Chief Technology Officer, Peter Rive, as well as our Chief Financial Officer, Brad Buss, after which point and time we will open up the call for question. As a reminder today discussion will contain forward-looking statements that involve our views as of today, based on information is currently available to us, forward-looking statements should not be consider to guarantee, a future performance of results, and reflect information that may change over time. Please refer to SolarCity's quarterly shareholder letter issued today and the slides accompanying this presentation as well as our periodic reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission for a discussion of forward-looking statements and the factors and risks that could cause our actual results to differ from our forward-looking statements. We do not undertake any obligation to publicly update or revise any forward-looking statements. In addition, during the course of this call we will use a number of specially defined terms relating to our business metrics and financial results including non-GAAP financial metrics. We refer to the definitions and the required reconciliation between GAAP and non-GAAP financial metrics included in the shareholder letter issued today and the slides accompanying this presentation which are available on our Investor Relations website at investors.solarcity.com. And with that behind us I would like to introduce SolarCity's Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Lyndon Rive.
Lyndon Rive:
Thank you, Aaron. I am excited about today’s earnings call. As we’re going to provide additional information on the economic value we create every quarter. SolarCity is essentially two companies in one, with the development company and the power company. The development company is responsible for acquiring customers and getting solar systems installed. The power company provides the financing and in collect 30-years of recurring revenues through studying the energy. As we look at the development company for this quarter we book 237 megawatts which is a new record for the company. We also installed the 153 megawatt. Our residential business grew 108% year-over-year with a total of 139 megawatt. A total cost was 295 with a 9% decline year-over-year. Now we look at the power company we produced over 110 an hour of energy over the last 12 months. Our contracted customer payments increased by 1.2 billion this quarter and we now have 6.1 billion our contracted customer payment. We also have over 217,000 customers. For the quarter, we traded a $147 million of economic value. Brad will discuss this in more detail on later slides. Let’s take a closer look at our customer growth. As mentioned in previous earnings call, we have a goal of 1 million customers by mid 2018 in our 20% of the way of achieving this goal. To achieve this goal we need to grow at 60% year-on-year. Historically, we’ve grown at 95% which makes you feel confident in achieving the 1 million customer goal. As I just mentioned, a nominal contracts increased by $1.2 billion in the quarter this is a 144% increase year-on-year. We now have 6.1 billion nominal contracts. I am now going to hand it over to Tanguy Serra, our COO.
Tanguy Serra:
Thanks, Lyndon. Our residential business continues to more than double with installed - Q1 installs growing from 67 megawatts to 139 megawatts year-over-year. This is a combination of our existing states continue to grow, and the opening of new states like Nevada, New Hampshire and New Mexico. We are at 75 permanent warehouses in 16 states and have on opening one approximately every 15 days in 2015 identifying and expanding our geographic coverage. Through this growth, we have additional dedicated regional source through the academy that allow it to recruit on-board and train installers. Our commercial installers are flat year-on-year. However commercial is a very existing market with very strong booking and we expect to see significant growth in installs in that segment in 3Q and 4Q this year from jobs currently in the process. We have started to do commercial work with our crews and are seeing outstanding increase in productivity. As an example we installed a 157 kilowatt large commercial flat roof in three days versus an industry standard of over 20 days using our Zep mounting hardware. Our instillation costs have stayed flat in Q1 2015 versus Q4 2014 is a remarkable achievement given the winter month in East Coast in the harshness of installing through snow. I would note that our safety and quality continue to lead the industry and our sophisticated compensation structures are yielding solid results. Final prices in Q1 2015 were in the 70s which gives us significant comfort achieving our 1.90 cost target by 2017. Sales cost [indiscernible], but we expect that number to start trending down as our mix of bookings use towards lower cost channels in the coming quarters. Overhead is on a per watt basis and lower seasonal volumes in Q1, but the overall trend of scaling fixed cost remains unchanged. With that let me pass it over to Pete Rive, CTO and Co-founder of SolarCity.
Peter Rive:
Hi, everybody, we’ve exceeded 1 terawatt hour of energy production for the past 12 months and as we enter the spring and summer we are breaking records. Over the past couple of months we broken through the four, and five and six gigawatt hour a day a month. We are expecting to see summer trends continue in the future and at the scale were aspiring to we have to ensure the energy delivery is not intermittent and it is also available at night. So that’s a pretty good segway into our recent factory releases. As many of you know we announced new versions of our solar battery systems in all of our business units, commercial and government, microgrid and residential. We are seeing great growth and strong demand in commercial and microgrid offerings and the new test of batteries are helping to wide in the addressable markets so where we can offer those systems. On the residential side, our fully installed solar battery system costs are about one-third of what they were a year ago. We expect cost to decline further at manufacturing sales and over the next five to 10 years these costs reductions will make a feasible to deploy the battery by default with all of our solar power systems. A solar battery backup system will sell for $5,000 as an add-on to a leases and PPAs which is comparables to other backup generator options. It’s important to know that the test subtracts of 3500 dozens include the inventor, permitting, installation management software and electrical equipments to wire the circuits they need to be backed up. One other things are included in our turnkey service in our solar battery systems. Interestingly the residential backup generator market is actually larger than solar with over 3.5% of residential customers having backup generators. The industry leader in this space had over $1 billion revenues last year and had seen a 12% compound annual growth rate over the past 10 years. Now extending the appeal of SolarCity to the traditional market it is interesting, but it is the small part of the strategic interest we have in batteries. Batteries spread throughout the distribution that can lower the cost of and hitting the grid and new market structures designed to take a full advantage of this benefit appear likely in several state. Our products I mean the contract as well as the management software. As grids services ready and as these markets develop it’s a 50-50 revenue share model embedded in the contracts that we have with our customers. We are not in position to estimate what these revenues could be, but it’s interesting to know that in California is currently estimated to cost $190 per kilowatt per year to meet new peak loads. The other strategic options at batteries make available to us are hedges against bad policy outcome. With examples being changes in net metering and solar penalties like high fixed charges. As always Hawaii is postcard from the future is the high electric rates there make economic now what will be affordable in other markets with further cost reductions. As a result we would be offering a zero down lease in Hawaii next year that gives customers the ability to go completely off grid. With that said I want to reinforce the customers removing themselves from the grid is a bad policy outcome. There is so much value in distributed energy resources, so we are hopeful that utility business model will adopt to embrace solar with batteries rather than panelize adoptions which in turn will encourage grid detections. And with that let me hand it over to Brad Buss, our Chief Financial Officer.
Brad Buss:
Thanks Pete. Overall, I was very pleased with our Q1 results and I will cover some of the financial highlights that we’ve detailed on our earnings deck which is posted on the website. Slide 10 of that deck we had another record quarter on the financing front and we are in great shape for the rest of 2015. With respect to tax equity we created four new funds and we continue to see strong and growing interest from our current investors as well as new financial as well as corporate investors. Our undeployed tax equity capacity stood at 624 megawatt up from 592 megawatt as of our last call and the team is hard at work nailing down commitments well into 2016 already. Outside of tax equity it’s been very busy as you’ve seen from a bunch of press releases lately. In may we will begin our first drawdown on our revolving MyPower credit facility as you saw today we just closed on new $500 million aggregation debt facility. That’s at a rate of about 3% and again with the best cash advance rate that we have seen so far. Not only is this our largest ag facility to date it’s the first with three major bank partners it’s a revolving facility and most importantly we will be able to drawdown at installation which is approximately 90 days faster than our old facilities and is a huge benefit as we continue to lower our working capital cycle time going forward. With respect to ABS we are very close to a new facility. So there’s not a lot that I can publicly say expect that we anticipate all of our tax equity partnerships structures will be soon investment grade rated and will be continuing to work with all of the agencies to move this asset class forward on a more predictable basis as I expect that we will be a frequent issuer to this market. Slide 11 is a new slide and it’s our focus on economic value creation as Lyndon talked about upfront. So this slide has two new metrics that we think we will do a great job at laying out our economics and expected cash generation from a most recent quarterly installations and again this is just focused on Q1 installation. It doesn’t reflect the entire portfolio. So the first metric is unlevered IRR in the second is economic value creation to equity. So what we’ve done here is layering the blended contracted financing terms of all of our Q1 2015 installation and again that’s all of our products commercial resi as well as MyPower. And then as you can see on the slide our blended energy price is approximately $0.13 a kilowatt. We have detailed our year one energy production hours as well as the blended terms of our current tax equity investment and you can see that our Q1 deployments are expected to generate a strong unlevered IRR of a 11% over the 30-year expected life of the system. So then we next layered in the non-recourse of debt that we expected to raise on the Q1 megawatt. This yields year one positive cash of $5 million on these deployments and a 30-year NPV of a $147 million to our equity shareholders. If you annualize this would represent close to $600 million or approximately 10% of our equity market cap. So you can do the math in your own models and factor in your future growth and you will see that this number is going to grow significantly. So we will continue to provide this information every quarter going forward and more importantly we are going to be introducing our cash per distribution or GAAP the metrics for the entire contracted portfolio beginning in Q2 were finishing all the system work and all the testing of that data and I’ve been glad to see where things are coming out so far. On Slide 12, so net retained value, this is again another enhancement to our metrics, we have traditionally done to retain value which we have now renamed gross retained value and we are adding net retained value which details the forecast of the value remaining to our equity holders after subtracting our net debt. So the gross retained value which is to the enterprise and like I said is consistent with retained value that you have seen historically exceeded $3 billion or approximately a $1.77 per watt at the end of the quarter. For those of you that are focused on incremental gross retained value, we saw an overall total increase in Q1 excluding MyPower of a $1.58 per watt which was an increase of $0.12 per watt and again mostly due to a better mix in the quarter. If you then back out all of the debt on the balance sheet at the end of our quarter except the convert which we expect to – settle an equity and you also look at the expected cash cost to complete our backlog you will see what we called net retained value of $2.7 billion as of the end of the quarter. So in simple terms if we stop booking any new contracts at the end of the quarter than the present value of all of our unlevered project cash flows for distribution after paying off all of our debt was worth about 2.7 to equity holders a pretty material number that I expect to continue to grow strongly. Another new Slide on number 13 is our financing receivable because much of our debt financing is not expected to come in for months after instillation. Our financing of installed megawatts will always lag our cash cost to install. To help better represent the true cash generation of our portfolio as well as bridge to divide between our investing cash outflows and our financing inflows as we will begin to divide between our investing cash outflows and our financing inflows we will begin reporting financing receivables every quarter. For Q1 we are estimating approximately $665 million to be in our financing receivable at the end the quarter. Most of you have probably seen the guidance and I’ll just touch on a couple of things. We are targeting megawatts of installed over 180 which will be a new record. As you can see our revenue increases significantly since we are exciting winter and we are adding thousands of new customers. Our OpEx dollars increase as we support the plant growth in a very measured manner and we are also planning for a significant ramp in megawatts supplied for the second half of 2015. So just to sum it up again I was very pleased with the quarter, we are really excited to introduce the new metrics and I look forward to bring it out cap being Q2. So we can start spending our time looking at the future and the strong growth that we have a head of us. So thanks for all your support this quarter and we will now take calls from the audience.
Operator:
Thank you. We will now be conducting a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from the line of Patrick Jobin with Credit Suisse. Please proceed with your question.
Patrick Jobin:
Congrats on the quarter and then certainly thanks for the new metrics, very helpful to get the unlevered IRR and the equity value here. So first, how should we think about the evolution of those numbers 11% from unlevered IRR given the geographic and segment mix into Q2 perhaps and then a few follow-ups? Thanks.
Brad Buss:
Yes, Patrick I think we are not looking to start forecasting data at this point in time even I think you hit it bang on the head I think you’ll see a little mix at all knock the numbers around, but our models how we are approaching this business on a portfolio basis are pretty tight, we shouldn’t see a ton of our ability, but mix is always going to impact that.
Patrick Jobin:
Okay, and then just a few follow-ups here, how should we think about the hurdle rate for entering new markets and if you have any targets for new market entry for the year that would be helpful. And then just lastly on Arizona, have the regulatory developments that’s our PAPS, TP have they altered any of your growth projections for the year or you seeing strength in other markets to offset a few of those markets? Thanks guys.
Lyndon Rive:
Jobin, this is Lyndon and so in terms of new markets whenever we look at new markets, we look at the economic value that it creates and it’s important that day one, if you add all the financing that day one is region itself is cash positive and then we look at the returns. The IRR if its day one positive then essentially its infinitive IRR. If its commercial – it’s probably be in the 20% range for the IRRs. And the second part of the question was SRP and things happening in Arizona. So we will not continue to grow in Arizona so that we’ve asked some of our employees to move other states. This will help us in the other states, but it is unfortunate for the status we prefer to grow in the states and we are – as the topic where it was assuming SRP right now for them since we using the monopoly strength to kill the market and we will see where that ends up and once that is resolved we will move back into the market and continue to scale in Arizona. And that for now we allocating that volume to other region.
Brad Buss:
And just a quick follow Patrick its - the 20% he is referring to the levered IRR.
Patrick Jobin:
Got it thanks guys.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Brian Lee with Goldman Sachs. Please proceed with your question.
Brian Lee:
Hey guys thanks for taking the questions. We will let go Patrick’s sentiment on the kudos for the new disclosure. So on the Q1 deployments being a $1.7 per watt here Brad how should we expect that number to trend in 2015 and even into 2016 given pricing mix cost assumptions, I know there is a lot of moving parts there and then also what do you as a potential for the debt cost assumptions I think you are using 4.5% right now and are you assuming all that debt – new debt is fully amortizing and then have a follow up.
Brad Buss:
That’s a lot of questions. So again I don’t think we are in position do any forecasting and I think even if we were probably not in area we are going to go down into forecasting the next quarters I think like I said earlier right we thought various specific targets like Lyndon mentioned on the day one cash we have return targets we want to run it out of portfolio level.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, one that I’d add to that is you can kind of pick some of that of the retained value, so the incremental retain value is increasing then naturally the IRR should be increasing as well and it can stay flat or going down then it will have that same effect it will just roll down. So that is our indication for you see how we’re looking the future, but we don’t want to forecasted.
Brad Buss:
On the debt one on the 4.5 I mean I think that’s obviously very conservative, we are doing better than that and I would expect we continue to do better than that, obviously subject to where rate may end up going. Every six months I only see our credit spread shrinking as we continue to perform as the paper continues to perform. So I am very happy where things are going from that perspective and then obviously on a cost spend of it. It is really is the cost of capital and the cost that’s really driving our success and where I think we will continue outdistance cost efficient.
Brian Lee:
The two most sensitive numbers and the economic value creations is what the PPA rates competition.
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, I mean the two most sensitive numbers and the economic value creation is what the PPA rates $0.13 a kilowatt hour test going up or downs and its mix of course have to get down and it will have a impact and then up cost assuming financing phase.
Brian Lee:
Okay, great that’s helpful. Follow-up with just on volumes, I think you guys if you could help us on your instillation operational capacity and how its grown since Q4 I think you had mentioned targeting 1 gigawatt for resi by year end. So wondering how close you are in relation to that target and especially since you installed almost a 180 megawatts which is the target for Q2 here, but you had seasonal impacts in Q4. So you’d have thought maybe you could be significantly higher here versus the guidance that you provided so any thoughts there would be helpful? Thanks.
Lyndon Rive:
Let me just clarify one thing before Tanguy answers, it’s not a gigawatt residential they forecasted 922 gigawatt residential and commercial.
Tanguy Serra:
Great, let me make some comments. So I think not changing the range, there are still threshold very much in that range for the full year installs, is commercial and residential, and commercial seems attracting nicely. As I said I think we will see revenue growth in Q3, Q4 based on where the job done and published right now, we feel very good about that. On residential we have capacity today where we do a little more than we currently doing and the key in residential is we don’t want to scale too far ahead when the – is actually coming through, because if you do that you are adding costs ahead of the curve, which you don’t want to do, but what we done is we have really sophisticated forecasting models that allow us to look at based on our patterns when installs were hit by geographic area and that allows us to drive reasonably sophisticated hiring plants that we got hiring, recruiters hiring and social attorney for training which allows chaining on board installers to be ready to install one inflows actually are required. So that’s piece of the probably actually increases as well and we are very confident being able to run multiple multi megawatt on a month-to-month without any particular issues. As a point of reference I would say that the its sometime in 2014 those are the couple of months where we grew by more than 5 megawatts month-on-month in 2014 and we are much smaller than we are now by growing north of 5 megawatts month-on-month is something growing past and I think we can do again.
Brad Buss:
One additional point Brian, I think we can try to gage capacity, you are looking at – we are commenting against the 4Q run rate and its worth noting that 4Q is always is your biggest commercial quarter. So it relies much stronger growth in the revenue front.
Brian Lee:
Okay.
Lyndon Rive:
Okay, in Q1.
Brian Lee:
Thanks guys.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Philip Shen with ROTH Capital Partners. Please proceed with your question.
Philip Shen:
Hey guys I’m bouncing between calls here, so apologize if this question was already addressed. I know you are focused on megawatt installed now instead of deployed, but your 2015 guidance remains on a deployed metrics. Can you share what megawatts deployed were in Q1?
Brad Buss:
143 and just for future reference you’ll always get that number in your EDC Slide which is based on deployment not install. So we get 143 total with about five cash, so 138 energy system.
Lyndon Rive:
It’s in the tables on the press release.
Philip Shen:
Okay, thanks. With the introduction of the cash flow available for distribution metrics it may back the question when do you expect you maybe able to make a distribution with visible cash flows that you have in the limited requirements on equity investments given the robust finance machine you’re developing and what is related to view on. It’s actually Sunday paying a dividend?
Brad Buss:
I have a dream, no I think I mean again think about is the growth rate that we are on every dollar that we are going to generate, we are going to solid right back into the business and that’s going to go on for the foreseeable future from my perspective and would be the best use of that capital at this time.
Philip Shen:
Fair enough, Thanks Brad I’ll jump back in queue.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Krish Sankar with Bank of America Merrill Lynch. Please proceed with your question.
Krish Sankar:
Yes, hi thanks for taking my question I had a couple of them first one on California, now that they’re going to be collapsing the tiers and when the new tiers are finalized. Some of the earliest California leasing PPA customers might find their contracts underwater based on the per kilowatt rate design and that plus escalators do have any concerns on those.
Lyndon Rive:
I mean I look at that most of ones were in the….
Brad Buss:
Let me tackle that Krish. Most of our California pricing is in the 17%, 18% set range historically. So it’s not like we’re pricing 10%, 15% off a rate. So if a guy that’s heavily to report user is it $0.30 he is not being price at 28%. So our standard pricing historically seems to protect us, it’s based on the proposed rate so far.
Lyndon Rive:
And this is not the first time this has happened and second time in the last I think probably three years. And they use to have a tier 4 and 5 they still do have a tier 4 but it’s same as today. And [indiscernible] that down and we saw no effect in our customer base.
Krish Sankar:
Got it, that’s very helpful and then as a follow up given some of the challenging policy environment that you encountered in Arizona and some where in the out of the U.S. and looking at overseas the markets for solar storage and micro bits does it foreseen or have you been thinking about expanding the leasing PPA model overseas or internationally sooner rather than later kind of your thoughts on that would be appreciated.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, I mean we actually extremely bullish and for the U.S. market you look at the policy changes at new office implementing policy changes that California is going to looking at implementing and we actually believe in a future and see in future, where the grid is a two-way grid where consumer is actually providing services to the utility. So we are optimistic about the U.S. Now Arizona is little different and it is a challenging state for us and we are all in kind of states where the utilities - deduction of dollar and do whatever they can to prevent competition and give consumer choice and in those days we will have to fight the fights. And but in our primary states we are very optimistic about our growth. That said we do at international markets and I’ve said the statement a few time, our international expense is about, we have been thinking of expanding internationally in the next year. The last eight years. And so we probably expanding this in the next year or two.
Lyndon Rive:
Great. I mean it’s obviously very attractive and I think we have an incredible model that we are going to be able to duplicate, but we are going to do when we are ready.
Brad Buss:
Yes, I mean with the growth rate we are experiencing right now and the size of the markets that we are in, its no urgency to expand internationally and that’s separate from the market – where we see opportunities.
Lyndon Rive:
So just to be clear we are offering micro grid internationally and are seeing demand, healthy demands about U.S. for micro grid.
Krish Sankar:
Got it. Thank you guys.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Vishal Shah with Deutsche Bank. Please proceed with your question.
Vishal Shah:
Hi, thanks for taking my question, you guys talked about this $500 million – system, batter system for stationary storage are in backup generators, when you think you can offer that system, residential customer in U.S., what price points you need to see to be able attract some of the customers for base load storage?
Lyndon Rive:
I am not sure I understand the question. Is the question when will the backup system available.
Vishal Shah:
My question is what price point do you need to see in order to a broader adoption of storage in the U.S. residential market?
Lyndon Rive:
He is asking our first generation is a backup what price point or cost point we need to maybe more likely release at – on the backup.
Brad Buss:
I mean that there is like the market structures have to evolve as well and examples of market structures are aggregated residential demand response and significantly differentiated some of these pricing. I think the economic are kind of there now, if the right kind of market structure can be developed. At this point I don’t want to put a kind of cost target out there for what the combined battery and solar systems have to be in order to be able to pay for – to get paid for based on some sort of tariff that we can’t even speculate on just yet. So it’s a tough question to answer, because I will just reinforce we continue to spend it, I think that like in the next five to ten years we will be installing battery with solar power, but my thinking is kind of routed in the fundamental kind of engineering challenges and opportunities and just having faith [indiscernible] structures.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, to us it’s really keeping the policy changes around this in fact the policy benefit to utilities as well. Peter actually wrote a blog that I recommend you to ready, today most of the utilities if they would have subscribed for the services that our customers can provide. It will just be a past though cost, note make no money on that and so they are motivated to deploy their own infrastructure because that’s the only way they make money. So change in policy to allow them to use other people of infrastructure and then still make money of other peoples infrastructure is what needs to happen.
Lyndon Rive:
It doesn’t you don’t need to call it I think kind of a base load with solar battery, so the value in addressing which is where the most expectable.
Brad Buss:
And in the interim I mean neutral demand for the backup generation that we just announce has been off the charges and way beyond our expectations.
Vishal Shah:
It’s helpful. And just one other question on the full year guidance for 2015, what percentage of your shipments will be for instance MyPower I know you guys are provided some number in the past I was just wondering if you can update that number?
Lyndon Rive:
It’s tough to forecast I don’t want to give a forecast what you think it is and I can give you an expectation what we currently have this last quarter, what was the percentage of – my part of last quarter.
Brad Buss:
Yes, I mean so one thing to keep in mind is our backlog and how it trickles through, so it’s a lot higher portion of our bookings right now that it is installed I mean looking at the data, but I don’t our expectation overall hasn’t changed in terms of the overall run rate.
Lyndon Rive:
I think roughly high-teens, low-20s.
Brad Buss:
And Vishal it was about 15% of deployments not inflations in 1Q.
Vishal Shah:
Okay, great thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Tyler Frank with Robert W. Baird. Please proceed with your question.
Tyler Frank:
Hi guys, thanks for taking the question and I apologize if it’s already been asked also bouncing around, so its looks like a large portion of the dollars coming from cash flows and from the renewals years you are trying to 30 can you breakdown 107 on the additional 20-year contract versus the renewal?
Brad Buss:
I mean its not a number where we are looking to split up right now, but I mean I would say roughly two third to third just kind of in that ballpark areas about who want to go.
Tyler Frank:
Two-third coming from that 20 to 30?
Lyndon Rive:
Well, don’t think 20 to 30 contracted versus MyPower is a 30 year contract.there is no renewal assumption with MyPower. So roughly two third contractors renwal.
Tyler Frank:
Okay great and then in terms of different markets and potential adjustments to net metering. [indiscernible] for all the current net metering programs there is change that more of a state-by-sate basis.
Brad Buss:
Everything grant for Lyndon has been installed, bt it is the safer side things side so far -..
Tyler Frank:
Okay great thanks guyds.
Operator:
Thank you our next question comes from the line of Edwin Mok with Needham Company. Please proceed with your question.
Q –Edwin Mok:
Hey thanks for taking my question. So one just on booking quite a bit about deployment but you guys mentioned about conversion is most of the incremental booking from commercial in this quarter.
Lyndon Rive:
We had a good commercial booking but its not much the majority store residential.
Tanguy Serra:
I still maybe also differently all of the 920 to 1000 megawatt this should deployment. You guys mentioned second half we expect bigger ramp in commercial. Think of us rough idea even in just range of the commercial versus –
Edwin Mok:
So historically we’ve said was being about in 820 and suspected probably you closer to low-teen – mid-to-low teen.
Lyndon Rive:
And so Edwin the resi portion the mix and bookings was higher in Q1 there was in Q that you asking.
Edwin Mok:
Okay great thanks so much [indiscernible] helpful thanks. And then on cotton have retail retention why that you that metrics I wondering I was reading thatkind of details there because you guys including the cost needed to deploy the back hawk is such as calculated power p to hold how was done that doest not can be useful deli am just trying = help with were is that pretty [indiscernible].
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, our estimate in small we are application one Q1 in stock ups, two the mega watts and backlog and backing of the expect investment from our technically partners. And we are assuming look largely encourage develop that backlog in working capital that would be whatever…
Edwin Mok:
I see, okay, that’s helpful. Okay, last question on MyPower, since you guys launched a product right have you seen more competition comes on the loan side or market, how do you think that product has been received in the marketplace and have you seen competitors offerings to more type of column product to compete with you guys?
Brad Buss:
Yes, we do think we are going to – like the strategy it never being to lead with financial innovation and the strategy is to – financial innovation gets commoditized in every at some points for this asset class should have access to the same cost of capital. And so our focus is differentiating in cost, quality and product set and that said we aren’t seeing much competition yet in the MyPower sector and a product similar designed to MyPower there are some loan products out there, but not designed the same way as MyPower.
Edwin Mok:
Okay, that’s all I have thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of [indiscernible]. Please proceed with your questions.
Unidentified Analyst:
Good afternoon, it’s Julian over here.
Brad Buss:
Hey, Julian.
Unidentified Analyst:
So going back to the wider question here what – in terms of yield curve. Can you discuss how you think about your own evaluation and evolution of the business model? And then also perhaps just in that same – how you think about your own – growth metrics. I know we are still in early days here, but how that might compare versus peers out there in the publicly traded world.
Brad Buss:
All above cost of capital, so for us like we said many times over we are driving our unit costs down and we want to drive the cost of capital down. So we are agnostic to any of the products that are out there than get us there, we look at everything, we evaluate everything, so I like everything anything that can me a lower cost and more variability and more cash upfront is good. Again on the cat fee end of it I think it would be great to put the metric so and then we talk about forecasting, but I think its pretty simple to see what’s our growth that we have the growth and retain value everything kind of came and then comes inline. So I mean our growth profile is going to be pretty gone big I think compared to most companies that are out there and the cat fee.
Peter Rive:
In the variability soon would be that much like we are talking $0.01 to $0.02 a kilowatt hour and that it should be maximum ability within the PPA rates.
Unidentified Analyst:
When you say variability in the PPA rates that prospective PPA rates in what you are signing?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, because we haven’t change pricing for sometime now and so any new quarter the variability is just the differences in install megawatts in the ratio that install megawatts but state that doesn’t move that much your 13 megawatts to 12.5, but it has a very small impact and everything is really fixed to none in our wholesales model. If you compare to our peers when you are dealing with large scale program you have to price every deals separately and then you could have a fairly large swing without a pricing not expect so it’s not a time.
Unidentified Analyst:
Great, and then taking the other side of the equation on California and the change in turn could you talk about the opportunity to capture some of the lower tiers now one and two kind of under the prospect of rate changes we are talking about there and what kind of PPA rates are margin opportunity those might be as well?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, California is still in process of changing all its policies and rates, they have flatten the tiers does bring the market and it does make solar available to those customers in the lower tiers. There are also some challenges with the proposals that the PC has with the utilities that we still need to work out and the biggest challenge there is fixed fees we preferred minimum and then the speed at what the flattening was to occur and we think it needs to be little slower, but work through those PC and the California utilities.
Unidentified Analyst:
But at the end of the day do you see an accelerating residential opportunity in California given the rates flattening?
Lyndon Rive:
It absolutely will open up additional markets for those customers with low utility books.
Unidentified Analyst:
Great, thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of [indiscernible]. Please proceed with your question.
Unidentified Analyst:
Yes, good afternoon and thank you. As you look at customer acquisition cost running the $2,000 to $3,000 range per customer I mean you had new start ups indicating acquisition cost well below that as much as below $1000 per customer with $600 per customer how aggressively are you pursuing innovation in the area and how would you characterize the cadence of cost reduction specifically [indiscernible]?
Brad Buss:
Yes, Silevo acquisition metrics it look so much better can half of this - and the we never look that competitors who have actual cost of the 1000 buck it marketing acquisition cost its not the fully loaded acquisition cost and so you have to compare apples to apples and have been said we do have channel with the fully loaded acquisition cost is in the range and in our federal as an example as a load acquisition cost it just been referral. But when you doubling every single year you can’t growth at that paid on referral. So some other companies who only have at 30% growth you can do that on referrals. So we will – with that being said we will look at we continue to innovation and reducing our acquisition cost it has creep up in Q4 and Q1 based on the large investment should made in the sales team up and running and investing to the future and invested a head of deal the seasonality of Q4 specifically selling days and in put some of the winter on the east coast, the biggest cost increased primarily the investment we are making in to future. And so now you could sales people up and running get some producing bookings and that case to sales person full ramped and producing that. Yes we will expanded additional partnerships we will look at expanding our online presences we improving our web marketing as well through just the cost of acquisition.
Unidentified Analyst:
Good thank you that color. Second question just on the vary system may be like just question how you anticipate handling 220 pound battery and then broader question about the integration of the storage and solar system and how you would integrated both optimize performance of the combined. Thank you.
Brad Buss:
So it’s a very good question very good inside on the terms we actually like we are so we did in 350 and we work that test engineers the basically integrate lets handle and have approved that few people kind – we actually put long and haul that how to get to people and what was your second question.
Unidentified Analyst:
We just more broadly on optimization of the integrated system as you combined storage.
Brad Buss:
Yes, I mean there is one of the things we are like as you release in the product you already thing of like dozen of things that you can modified to the integrated systems make even better cheap of the next year or so there is lot of opportunity and we are in a position right now we kind of spoke about it. But there is a lot of stuff that we are still doing – to lower the cost, like year-on-year lowering it by two-thirds we are pretty happy with kind of it will be the function proven this year and next year, but the loss that we are doing that’s going to…
Unidentified Analyst:
Great, while we look forward to seeing it. Nice jump in the quarter.
Peter Rive:
Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of [indiscernible] with Raymond James. Please proceed with your question.
Unidentified Analyst:
Thanks for taking the question guys, can I ask about headcount given the way OpEx is trending up you are obviously adding a lot of sales and elsewhere are you worried at all that in 18 months as the ITC winds down you may have to do some pretty severe cutbacks in headcount?
Lyndon Rive:
So we have a fully loaded cost target $2.50 and end of 2016, we still feel confident in achieving and remember the increase in headcount dollars per watt has big impact on the lower instilled megawatts for this quarter. And OpEx – traditional OpEx are overhead the way I look at it. And we are not adding much there most of the headcount is in core revenue generation sales and install it.
Brad Buss:
Yes, I mean in - just to give it in perspective in Q1 we added 1,300 people and 92% of them are sales – and Lyndon talked about. And I think the bigger point though which we will talk more in the future is growth where we are going with our cost target as well as our efficiencies, the technology gains and even in a post dropdown ITC assuming that happens we are still going to have in very viable business, probably one of the few that will be that strong and I think you will see us continue to grow potentially even faster with that headwind out there. And I think quite honestly a line of the competition we are going to take a few bullets in the head because our cost structures and now were near that, so we obviously will monitor it very carefully, but we think we are going to follow right through and continue to grow.
Unidentified Analyst:
I appreciate the color can I also just ask about the financing side. I guess the slide 10, you said at points in the past that you want to do an asset-backed financing every quarter, but now it’s been more than six months since the last one what explains that?
Lyndon Rive:
Like I was saying our other structure we have one last structure which is the one that in the process right now like any new structure that takes a little longer it probably took longer than we expected and we hope to have that done pretty soon and then we’ll also broaden and start using a couple of agencies so we don’t get backed up internally there. So that was to my earlier point I think will be true all the complexities of the partnerships and then we’d be able to go on a much more frequent basis. Trust me, we love to began that.
Unidentified Analyst:
All right. I appreciate it.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of [Michael Lucente] with Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question.
Unidentified Analyst:
Hi guys thanks for taking my call. Primarily interested in the timing of cash rich recognition I think which you can do to speedup cash flow back to city whether its through tax equity and stretching out their involvement or with the financing, but basically the portfolio that [indescribable] and getting to the hands of shareholders as quickly as possible? Thanks.
Brad Buss:
I mean I think the ag facility is a great example right we are looking at number of people that canceled from so kind of permission to operate is very, very minuet so the ability to move that up I think is a great testament to our model and like I said that will take us 90 days right there. On the tax equity it really revolves around the ability to trounce quicker with our partners get them through the data quicker. So believe me I mean just like we do with cost we look at everything, we are looking at every lag in the financing cycle time as I refer to because I look at financing as a factory right, the operational part of the factory is just continuing in the long and we want to make sure we are doing that with capital. So anyway we squeeze the day or two out, we plan on doing that and then also the other focus is on getting more of the cash advance upfront and part of that negotiation and part of that is the quality of the assets and the paper as we continue to grow.
Lyndon Rive:
And we have done a lot of the laid work getting the all the structures approved we then accelerate the amount of securitizations we do and as Brad mentioned we can’t really do one trounce right now per month per investors if you can get that to two that will help a lot.
Brad Buss:
And I will be doing more on the front end kind of like as you would call it probably like a construction facility concept, we are doing some interesting stuff there and looking at longer term bonds. We look at everything, look at everything.
Unidentified Analyst:
Thanks guys. End of Q&A
Operator:
Thank you. Unfortunately we have exceeded a lot of time for questions. This does concludes today’s teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.
Executives:
Jeff Evanson – Vice President-Investor Relations Elon Musk – Chairman, Product Architect and Chief Executive Officer JB Straubel – Chief Technical Officer Deepak Ahuja – Chief Financial Officer
Analysts:
Andrea James – Dougherty & Company LLC Brian Johnson – Barclays Adam Jonas – Morgan Stanley John Lovallo – Bank of America Merrill Lynch Ben Kallo – Robert W. Baird Ryan Brinkman – JP Morgan Patrick Archambault – Goldman Sachs Rod Lache – Deutsche Bank Dan Galves – Credit Suisse Trip Chowdhry – Global Equity Research Andrew Fung – CLSA
Operator:
Good day ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the Tesla Motors Fourth Quarter 2014 Financial Results Q&A Conference Call. At this time all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later we will conduct a question-and-answer session and instructions will follow at that time. I would like to turn the call over to your host, Mr. Jeff Evanson. Please go ahead.
Jeff Evanson:
Thank you, Patrick and good afternoon everyone. Welcome to Tesla’s fourth quarter Q&A webcast. I’m joined today by Elon Musk, Tesla’s Chairman and CEO, JB Straubel, our CTO and Deepak Ahuja, Tesla’s CFO. We announced our financial and operational results today in a shareholder letter that’s available at the same link as this webcast and a replay of this webcast will be available later today at the same link. The shareholder letter includes GAAP and non-GAAP financial results, as well as reconciliations between the two. Our non-GAAP measures add back deferred revenue and related expenses for cars delivered where the cash has been or will soon be collected. These non-GAAP results also exclude stock-based compensation and non-cash interest expense. Revenues and cost associated with cars leased directly through us are treated the same in our GAAP and non-GAAP financial information. During the call, we will be discussing our business outlook and making other forward-looking statements, which are based on our predictions and expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to a number of risks and uncertainties including those mentioned in our most recent 10-Q filed with the SEC. And now Patrick, if you could assemble the queue and have our first question please?
Operator:
[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Andrea James with Dougherty & Company. Your line is open.
Andrea James:
Hi, thanks for taking my questions and congratulations on the rocket launch.
Elon Musk:
Thank you.
Andrea James:
So just quickly can you help me get to a free cash flow figure, looks like you can do $1.5 billion in CapEx, but what’s going to be the operating cash flow to offset that?
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes, we will have clearly significant - Deepak here, hi Andrea.
Andrea James:
Hi.
Deepak Ahuja:
We would have significant positive operating cash flow, obviously as our business --our volume gross and our gross margin continues to improve. We’ll also have some cash used on our direct leasing program. Our expectation is that we will establish shop via warehouse line for leasing cars and that will continue to grow and fund the big portion for leasing funding required. So overall, we feel pretty comfortable where we are in terms of our 2015 look from a cash burn perspective.
Andrea James:
So maybe about $1 billion is that about inline of cash burn?
Deepak Ahuja:
Should be less than that.
Andrea James:
Okay.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes, considering that we will have a lease warehouse line which continues to expand.
Andrea James:
Got it. And so then another point, it looks like you expanded your residual value guarantee into extra markets late last year. And then I saw last week you’re giving and recharging, home charging to focus in China. So I guess my question is it looks like you have really pretty good demand, global wait times increases, so why continue to give incentives to buy the cars if demand is so high?
Deepak Ahuja:
Sorry Straubel.
JB Straubel:
Well, I think fundamentally in China, we want to make sure we are not creating any hurdles or issues that create a negative customer experience. And charging installation given the varied regulations and challenges there has been a difficult customer experience and they want to overcome that by providing [indiscernible].
Elon Musk:
Yes, but this is also something that’s considered standard in China, just like buying an BMW i3 or Elite something that considers the standard things. So we’re just matching what competitors do. But this whole China thing has been blown way out of portion. We didn’t execute people well on China last year, but it didn’t really matter or people couldn’t quite get that, like it’s not like the all these extra cars we could have produced and it’s only we’d had bunch more customers in China, we could have [indiscernible] those cars. We have production constraint. So I wish we weren’t but we were. So look forward to getting to demand constrain in the future. Essentially, it didn’t matter whether we, meaning to the company as a whole, whether we saw a lot of cars in China or a small number of cars in China, [indiscernible] couple of cars to U.S. or Europe as in China. So it wasn’t a high priority for the company, because it wasn’t a constraining factor. Now obviously, in the long-term we do want to succeed in China and make sure we’re doing a good job. And I think just like the rest of the world, China wants to have the best products and we think the Model S is the best car in world and that’s indicated by a multiple outside assessment. I am pretty sure that people in China want the best car in the world. So that’s something we got to make sure, we take that right foundation for future growth. But it was essentially irrelevant to last year. That’s an important point. And the biggest issue which we’re still fighting to address is this perception that is as difficult to charge your car in China. This is false it is not difficult to charge your car in China. Unfortunately, this sounds kind of brain dead but our sales team was telling people that it was difficult to charge in China. Even though this is not true like that is pretty silly. And so I put the guy who was in charge of the supercharger rollout in China, is doing an awesome job, an engineer basically, he’s not a sales person, in charge of China to make sure that charging is super easy and excellent. He’s not a marketing guys or sales guy, he is like, he is an engineer and he’s an operations guys and he’s going to make sure that people have, where customers are trying to have a fantastic experience and then just like in other countries those customers become our sales force and the product sales grow by word of mouth.
Andrea James:
So, is this a company philosophy because it seems like you are putting engineers in charge of customer service even globally, with Jerome, I mean is customer service an engineering problem?
Elon Musk:
I think if you have got people that are good at creative problem solving and they will – they’ll be good at creative problem solving. I tend to view I guess it is my own bias that most of things, since I am an engineer I can view things as an engineering problem. But not everything is an engineering problem, but I think it is like you got to design the system and sometimes those systems are in the form of a car or discharging or it is way that you communicate with prospective customers it just create a problem solving [indiscernible] always as a creative problem solver who just gives back getting it right and that is what we are doing. And I am confident that soon, by the end of this year that will be in really good shape in China and yes I’m pretty optimistic about it. I don’t think that’s some sort of unique issue in China and if you look at sales, sales, our sales in Hong Kong our sales in Hong Kong are excellence. But we don’t have that misconception of charging issue in Hong Kong. And everybody lives in apartment building as well, so it is not like it is super easy to get local charging. . And so I’m confident that just as we’ve seen high demand in every other part of the world that we’ll see it in China as well.
Andrea James:
And just to the point that thank you for the clarity on China. Just to my point on the residual value guarantee. Is that something that you plan on keeping and why keep it and what are your thoughts about that?
Elon Musk:
Yes. That’s a good question. I’ve actually debated like should we keep it or shouldn’t we keep it because it is moot. The residual value guarantee matches what other premium sedans. And see after three year time period but our actual residual values are substantially above that, so never actually matters. And we are not like paying up residual value guarantee are actually volumes especially about that so never actually matters, we are not going to paying out residual value guarantees because the car is worth more than the residual value and - this kind of messes up our accounting because we have to treat it like a pseudo-lease. On the other hand, if we withdrew it, then does that mean – would people take that as a lack of confidence in our product and if they might, they might misconstrue it as such. So even though it’s moot and it doesn’t really matter, it’s just there to provide confidence to the customers. Yes, so I think, we’ll probably keep it even though it makes our financials look worse than they are really are. So, I think it’s really important, because we get some criticism about GAAP versus non-GAAP, as though like when we do non-GAAP we’re actually trying to trick people, and so thinking something is better than it is. But actually it’s not true, I don’t - I think that the way the accounting rules currently work don’t give a correct picture, we’re trying to give a more correct picture of non-GAAP, not a less correct picture. The difference between -- from our gross margin GAAP and non-GAAP were basically the same. So, when we look for revenue the difference between the GAAP and non-GAAP it’s just - it comes down to just two things, this residual value guarantee, where we - as we just talked about, it moot . But because of the pseudo-lease we have to recognize the revenue overtime, even though we got the cash immediately. So our cash flow with non-GAAP is the accurate representation of cash flow, which is what really matters. And yes, so and then even in non-GAAP, we don’t - for leases that we do internally, they actually aren’t even covered in non-GAAP.
JB Straubel:
And we didn’t receive the full cash up front. So it’s aligned with our cash flow.
Elon Musk:
Exactly, exactly it is aligned to cash flow.
JB Straubel:
Right, whereas in some other auto company the moment they sell the car to a dealership, we understand they recognizable full revenue, but even though the financing entity might lease that car and so they don’t have the cash flows, but they have a GAAP revenue. So in some sense our non-GAAP revenue is pretty clean and it aligns up well with our cash flow.
Elon Musk:
Yes, this is really important, because we’re into one point to emphasize, because like - because there might be -- are we perhaps exaggerating our revenues relative to how other car companies may represent their revenues. And what Deepak just said is a very good point. What the other car companies will do is they will sell the cars to the dealer groups, but then they will then turn around and refinance those same cars. So they are sending it through the laundromat, it is basically what they’re doing. In our case, since we are not sending it through laundromat, it’s much, actually more correct. Because if we do a lease it’s all internal and we’re not trying to sort of send it through some third-party where actually the risk is still assumed by the parent car company. So yes, and then even for leases that we do ourselves, we can securitize those leases whenever we want. So, we can take those leases, fund them and put them into a securitization program or just get a warehouse loan to recover the capital. The reason we’re using our existing capital is just basically common sense, because we’ve got a big bank balance that’s earning a 0.1% or basically nothing, actually minus whatever the inflation rate is. And so, it makes more sense for us to put that capital to work with consumer leases and current 2% to 3% that’s basically what it amounts to, but whenever we want to recover that capital we can do so through warehouse balance securitization. Yes.
JB Straubel:
Thank you for taking my questions.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes so financials are better than they appear, not worse. That’s really is the key point.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Brian Johnson with Barclays. Your line is open.
Brian Johnson:
Yes, good evening. I wanted to explore a bit where you see the trajectory of CapEx and OpEx. You gave some guidance for next year, but as we kind of think ahead to the Gigafactory and as we think ahead to the model -- the Gen 3 launch, how do you see those trends going over the next several years.
JB Straubel:
We are going to spend staggering amounts of money on CapEx. I mean for a good reason and with the great ROI. And it’s important to not look at the CapEx in isolation because like that CapEx obviously is being done for reason in order to capture substantial future revenue flow. I am just saying the back-of-the-envelope -- if you make certain assumptions I emphasize these are just certain assumptions. I’m not saying they are true although they will occur, but I bet that they do occur, personally, that is my personal opinion. I mean if you take this year’s revenue around $6 billion or thereabout and if we are able to maintain a 30% growth rate for ten years added to your 10% profitability number and have 20PE, our market cap would be basically the same as Apple today. Now that’s going to require a bit - on the order of $700 billion#. Obviously, getting [indiscernible] acquire some significant CapEx. But I’m hopeful that we can do this without any significant dilution to the company. So maybe minor dilution, but nothing serious.
Brian Johnson:
And how about in terms of operating expense and do you have a target for reported margins versus kind of thinking about your remarks in the second press conference at [indiscernible] where margins would be if you’d stop growing? Is there a difference between the margins on the non-GAAP basis we’d actually see, versus what they would be if you weren’t making those kind of investments?
Deepak Ahuja:
You mean profit margin as opposed to gross margin?
Brian Johnson:
Yes, yes the operating margin.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes, I mean, we could easily get to 10%, 15%. I probably if we - say somewhere between 10% or 15%. Because some of that gross margins that this year will probably, by the end of the year be somewhere around 30%. Then if 20 of those points go to sort of fixed cost and R&D and what not and then at least 10 leftover for profitability. And we are expecting to be non-GAAP profitable.
Elon Musk:
And we have been non-GAAP profitable for two years now 2013# and 2014.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes I’d like to emphasis that doesn’t mean [indiscernible] profitable, it means really profitable. It difficult to pass your question Brian in terms of separating OpEx between the fast growing company like Tesla versus steady-state, clearly we want to invest in the future, but we want to do it efficiently and we are going to focus on being efficient with our OpEx fundamentally this year.
Elon Musk:
That is a key thing. The simple math of headcount requires this. We’re basically little over 10,000 people aiming for somewhere over 55,000 cars this year. Just get to 0.5 million cars a year if we do not improve our productivity per person, we would need 100,000 people. I am not sure we would really park. So clearly there need to be dramatic improvement in productivity which are underway.
Brian Johnson:
Right, and so when you said 10% was that 10% whilst still growing to the millions of cars target you talked about in 2025, or that’s kind of 10% when you get to that millions of cars target?
Elon Musk:
Yes I think it’s important we’re actually to be able to maintain 10% profitability in spite of nutty growth, because you just run out of way to spend money. It is good to become like Apple. They’re just running out of way to spend money. They spend money like it is water over there and they still can’t spend enough of it?
JB Straubel:
I think for us we are a single vehicle platform company at this point for our engineering expenses have their ebbs and flows. So that has an impact, but as we grow will become a portfolio of vehicle platforms even with nutty growth we can get to a very good operating margin.
Elon Musk:
Yes, it’s sort of planned like we are doing this -- and it’s mentioned in the letter , but there is massive infrastructure expansion going on like really massive like setting up service centers worldwide, creating an ubiquitous Supercharger network worldwide, just across all these countries growing with customs and the unique elements for each country. We are massively increasing this sort of scope and scale of Tesla in order to lay a foundation for future growth.
Brian Johnson:
Okay, great. And just final question more for Deepak. When does CapEx slow into depreciation and gross margin, what kind of timeframes for the CapEx in terms of depreciable life spends, are you assuming on things like Gigafactory, factory drilling and so forth?
Deepak Ahuja:
So to answer your first question, when assets are put to use for production and delivery of cars, that’s when depreciation kicks off, so a lot of our spend this year is on production capacity expansion and Model X tooling. Those the assets saw depreciation when Model X starts producing. The Gigafactory assets clearly will go into -- would be depreciated when we start producing cells that are being used for production and it depends on our revenue growth. And the life of -- the depreciation life depends on the kind of asset. It can vary from five years for tooling to longer if its equipment, and if it’s facility then it could be for 15 to 30 years. We follow the generally accepted principles there in our expected life of use to come up with those figures.
Brian Johnson:
Okay, great, okay, thanks.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.
Adam Jonas:
Good evening, everybody. First back China, do you have any concerns about your ability to pursue business in China on terms that protect your interests? What I mean is like, if you look at the German manufacturers, they don’t seem to have any problem with 50/50 JV structures or with bit local partners and not having control on selling through franchisers. Are you able to - are those terms that you are comfortable doing business with in China?
Deepak Ahuja:
Well, I think we definitely going to - want to have local manufacturing or some amount of local R&D as well in the future in China. It’s not going to make a ton of sense for the long term to be building a huge number of cars in California and shipping them to China. But right now we’re still at the early stages, so it’s difficult to say exactly what happens in the future. I mean, our goals in the short-term in China is just very straightforward which is just to build out our service and Supercharger infrastructure and just get the basic foundational elements there, and we are not going through dealers as we are not going through dealers anywhere in the world. So our activities in China currently are housed and Tesla-owned and it sort of depends on what the evolving landscape is in China as to whether, where, and how a JV would have to be setup .
Adam Jonas:
Okay, Elon just on the patents, it’s been eight months since you opened up the patents for competitors to use, any takers of any significant technology? I’m not aware of any. Are or you surprised there have not been more, and is this just a function of just -- kind of is it hubris and pride, or your competitors they just don’t have the kind of intellectual capabilities or software engineering depth to kind of contextualize what you have to offer.
Elon Musk:
I’m quite sure that there will be -- and that actually manufacturers are currently [indiscernible] use our patents, but just important to remember the design cycle from the point of which you can use intellectual property, you’ve got sort of incorporate the design, that design’s got to -- you’ve got to do detailed engineering and design, you got to tool things out, and then you’ve got to go to production. So probably, the first time you see companies -- anyone using our IP would be three years after we announced.
Adam Jonas:
Okay. And then finally, Elon just you mentioned, I think you said staggering amounts or obscene – amounts of money on CapEx. Companies that usually have those kinds of spending ambitions at this point in the growth phase also have a pretty developed relationship with capital markets to help fund that growth, and yourself an Enterprise has been -- I think done that quite successfully. Any heuristics, you can kind of leave us with as people kind of contemplate more cash burn being necessary to fund great things and great projects that will ultimately payoff. But any kind of rule of the thumb of minimum levels of liquidity or the kind of things you’d look at to decide whether you need to kind of refill the capital tank? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
We don’t have any plans for raising money right now. And I think we can get to that sort of crazy level that I described earlier with really minimal dilution. It’s really going to be very much -- overwhelming amount of that would come from operating cash flow. So yes, I feel generally pretty good about getting to that level with minor to moderate dilution. The only reason we’d raise money is -- and I’m not saying we really don’t have any plans to raise money, but the only reason I could mention we would do it is just to have a bigger cash cushion that will be in the -- in case there’s a big downturn in the economy or something like that.
Adam Jonas:
Thanks very much.
Elon Musk:
Okay.
Operator:
Thank you, our next question comes from John Lovallo with Bank of America. Your line is open.
John Lovallo:
Hey guys, thanks for taking the call. First question is your cash burn continues to be pretty aggressive here. So the question is, if demand is strong as you guys are saying, and really the issue is on the supply side, why wouldn’t you raise prices in all regions to at least set off - offset the FX headwinds. And the reason I’m asking this is, if you get more demand than you can handle, this won’t hurt deliveries, it should also clearly benefit cash flow and investors and it will also support the residual values for your current owners. So it sounds like a win-win all around, so can you just address that please?
Elon Musk:
Well, I actually kind of think our car is expensive as it is. It’s really not a cheap car. For a huge number of our customers, it’s the most expensive car that they have ever bought, and they didn’t think they would ever buy a car that costs $100,000. So I’m reluctant to raise that price as we start running into fundamental affordability limits. As it is, we are expecting to be significantly - have significant positive cash flow in the latter half of the year. So yes, I mean, there’ll be sort of a short-term debt, but it’s clearly quite positive at the end of the year, and then going into 2016, even more so.
Deepak Ahuja:
And I think that’s completely linked to a major product launch. Especially in the automotive industry, you have to invest in the CapEx for manufacturing capacity and then the cash flow comes through when you launch.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
John Lovallo:
Just to be clear on that, when you say you’re going to be cash flow positive by the end of the year, that’s after CapEx?
Deepak Ahuja:
That’s our - yes, that is expectation and I think we got to have focus on the long-term, while this is a short-term issue in terms of timing of CapEx versus revenue.
Elon Musk:
But yes, - but to answer your question, yes, even in the face of significant CapEx, we expect to be cash flow positive in Q4.
John Lovallo:
In Q4? Okay.
JB Straubel:
I mean, that will happen somewhere in late Q3, but it’s - it will be reflected most clearly in Q4.
Deepak Ahuja:
And it’s linked with the volume production of Model X.
JB Straubel:
Yes, exactly, we’ve got to get Model X. It could give - we have plenty of CapEx related to Model X.
John Lovallo:
Yes.
JB Straubel:
We have also invested in a bunch of things that actually, our volume numbers that are really better associated with Model III, so that $0.25 billion dollar paint shop upgrade is intended to be able to handle 10,000 cars a week.
John Lovallo:
Okay, thanks. And then the next question is - there has been a lot of discussions about persistent drivetrain issues, and we’ve heard everything from different customers from persistent humming noises to complete failures, so the question is, I mean how pervasive is the drivetrain issue? What is the cost to replace a drivetrain? And I was a little surprised to see that the warranty reserves would not move up quarter-over-quarter?
Elon Musk:
Yes. I think there is a lot of noise on the forums, but it’s not quite as bad as people make -- –for most people, they don’t experience any drivetrain issue at all. There was a period of time, basically for a month or two about a year ago where – it was kind of getting into the weeds, but the application of grease on the spline of the motor was incorrect, and that caused the spline to wear out and stripped the spline on the drag in on the motor. So that particularly affected sports, and unfortunately it happened to coincide with a - when a whole batch of cars headed for Norway. So unfortunately – it disproportionately affected the Norwegian customers. We’ve taken great pains to try to address. Essentially what it amounted to fix that issue for example is just to you’ve got a full drive unit and then send it to get remanufactured where we replaced the rotor and...
JB Straubel:
And maybe to the warranty, this is JB, to the warranty reserve question, we’ve actually improved quite a bit a lot in our efficiency at repairing the drive unit. So it might be swapped for a given customer, but that unit doesn’t get trashed, it gets repaired. And the elements that need to get repaired are increasingly narrow, and we are really targeting them quite directly, even the rotor can be repaired at this point.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And there was a differential clunk that was causing a differential clunk which can actually be fixed with a two-part shim in the service center, so we were able to figure out the service center fix to address that without even dropping the drive unit.
JB Straubel:
Okay. All of the new units being built today, of course get all these fixes proactively as we learn the new product improves.
John Lovallo:
That’s helpful. And then finally, Elon, I just wanted to ask you about your comment about GAAP profitability not being reached until 2020, and I know you guys say that the non-GAAP ways – is way to think about it, and I’m not disagreeing with that here, but what I am suggesting is that if there’s not going to be GAAP profitability until 2020, and we kind of walk down from The Street’s consensus non-GAAP number to a GAAP number by adding back stock comp, adding back non-cash interest expense, and making an assumption on the leasing, my estimate would suggest that Street estimates are 30% to 60% too high because the GAAP component of that non-GAAP number would need to be eliminated. So if you guys could just help me think about if that math is incorrect, and more importantly, what is the path to profitability for Tesla?
Elon Musk:
Sure, I think people read too much into my comment because I was asked, when do I think Tesla will have full-year GAAP profitability, and sort of then you are going to the sort of residual varying [indiscernible] question like do we continue doing that or do we not continue doing that, because the half of the cars are financed, right. So, that basically chops our revenue in half in a lot of cases.
John Lovallo:
Leasing as well.
Elon Musk:
I mean leasing, so if leasing and residual value guarantee of half the cars that would basically [indiscernible] affect revenue recognition, and then is it – if it is a quarter basis or is it a full year. That’s why I said it’s probably 2020, it’s the full year, and it’s GAAP. That’s - what that actually means is that Tesla’s free cash flow is incredible in 2020, it’s able to overwhelm even the non-GAAP stuff. So, I think people didn’t understand that what I said was extremely optimistic, not a pessimistic statement.
John Lovallo:
Okay, thank you guys.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the Ben Kallo with Robert W. Baird. Your line is open.
Ben Kallo:
Hi, thank you for taking my question. A couple of different ones, first kind of a lower level one, as far as the X goes in timing, could you just talk about -- I know you reiterated deliveries in Q3 and just your confidence level around that, and then maybe one of the questions we get a lot is if we extend that to the Gen 3 and your 2017 timeframe, can you just talk about what work you’re doing there and how confident you’re getting to that timeline?
Elon Musk:
Yes, it’s fair criticism, implied criticism. –This feels like this paradox here is like we’re sort of halfway there at any given point, but really at this - the X design is done. So, it’s just a question of tolling and supply chain at this point, and then making sure as we do the ramp up on X that out quality is excellent. It doesn’t [indiscernible], obviously we want to make sure we have a really great experience, we don’t have them - have any sort of issues or problems, but it is really – just like I said, it is just tooling and supply chain, and we’re trying to make that go as fast as possible. So, we’re highly confident of delivering our first customer cars this summer and then spooling up to significant volume in Q4. Now with respect to Model 3, we definitely don’t want the delays that affected the X to affect the Model 3, and we’re really – we are being quite contentious about this, and I mean there are things that we could do with the Model 3 platform that are really adventurous but with the schedule risk. So what we’re going to do is we’re going to have something that is going to be an amazing car, but it won’t be the most adventurous version of the Model 3 to begin with, but we will then have the more sort of different version of the Model 3 on the Model 3 platform following the initial version, so that we can stay on track for Model 3. We got a quite adventurous with the X, and we don’t want - we don’t want to be – that would be too risky given the Gigafactory and everything sort of has to happen on time. We’re not going to go super crazy with the design of the initial version of the 3. So, I do feel confident that we can make that happen in the second half of 2017.
Ben Kallo:
Great.
Elon Musk:
As long as we stick to those principles.
Ben Kallo:
Great. And question on innovation and releasing new features, what did you learned from the dual motor as far as the timing of new releases and how that impacts demand and how you do that going forward. I know you guys are constantly innovating on the car, but does that disrupt demand at all and how do you do that that you are now specifically during Model years, big advances.
Elon Musk:
This is a problem that we struggle with. It’s really tricky because -- we basically have one car with variation. This would be much easier if we had different cars. It’s tough for us to announce [indiscernible] in advance that there is going to be some new version of the car because then we are like worried about starting near term sales. A lot of people wait to see what it is. So it is a real tricky thing and then we also, it is difficult to forecast the exact demand since we haven’t [indiscernible] the car. We really have to guess, like how many people want P85D, we have no idea. It turns out a lot, okay, really a lot. And then we say, oh, we have too much demand for the P85D and now we got to figure out how to do that and then how many people are going to pick the next gen [seat] [ph] as it turns out also a lot. So we couldn’t make [enough seats]. So I mean I’d love to figure out how to [indiscernible] about this in the future. But, yes.
Deepak Ahuja:
I think one thing in particular that we are working toward is to be sure that we are really ready to meet the production demands at a much higher percentage mix if we announce something new, or an innovative new feature. And that is definitely I think a lesson we learned.
Elon Musk:
Yes, agreed.
Ben Kallo:
And my last one is on the storage side of the business. Can you just talk about any developments there? We have heard some utilities looking for RFPs for utility scale projects. Are you guys at a position where you can start bidding on those RFPs or entering those RFPs, just give some update there and thanks guys.
Elon Musk:
[Stationary] [ph] storage?
Ben Kallo:
Yes, [stationary] [ph] storage.
Elon Musk:
Yes, [indiscernible] we are bidding on a lot of RFPs already. Do you want to [indiscernible]?
JB Straubel:
I don’t want to go into super amount of detail on this but you are correct. Of course there’s a lot of interest and a lot of utilities are working in this space. And we are talking to almost all of them. It’s early stage stuff and a lot of these projects are very far out, since the procurement cycle for utilities is so long. But this is a business that certainly is gaining an increasing amount of our attention.
Elon Musk:
Yes, but we’re going to do -- we’re going to unveil the Tesla home battery [indiscernible] consumer battery that will be for use in and people’s houses or businesses, fairly soon. We have the design done and it should start going into production probably about six months or so. We probably got a date to have sort of product unveiling, it’s probably in the next month or two. It’s really great. I’m really excited about it.
Ben Kallo:
Thanks guys.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Ryan Brinkman with JP Morgan. Your line is open.
Ryan Brinkman:
Hi, thanks for taking my question. Can you give us a sense for what you think your gross margin would have been in the quarter if not for the 1,400 deliveries that were pushed into 1Q?
Elon Musk:
Actually [indiscernible] I mean there were a bunch of things that coincided, because we had to expedite - [indiscernible] expedited shipping [indiscernible] make those numbers, we had massive [indiscernible] shipping. And then the euro was also falling. If those things hadn’t occurred I mean we’re going to be somewhere in the order of 28%, yeah, somewhere around there.
Ryan Brinkman:
Okay, that’s helpful. And then just last question, is there any additional color you can give us on just the cadence of sales and production throughout 2015 - beyond - I’m curious why the deliveries are expected to be flat in 1Q versus 4Q given that they should benefit from the push out of those holiday deliveries and why production is forecast down sequentially too given that the full year has [guided] [ph] up so much and sort of beyond 1Q, what can you tell us in terms of when you expect to the implied inflection to occur in 2Q or 3Q what the catalyst is for that, whether it’s a capacity bump up again or Model X or something like that. Thanks.
Elon Musk:
Yes. And just clarify, [indiscernible] estimated 28%, that’s 28% excluding ZEV credit. So if you added ZEV credit on top of that it would be, I don’t know, 29% or 30% something like that. So yes, in terms of the production from Q4 to Q1 being relatively flat, there is a couple of reasons that, they’re actually two fewer weeks of production in Q1 versus Q4. One is because we had to give – we wanted [indiscernible] and certainly so gave people the first week of January off, because they have been working for Christmas and New Year’s and Thanksgiving in a lot of cases. So they just, just to give people a break we didn’t operate the factory in first week of January. And also [indiscernible] and then there is also one fewer production week in Q1. So that’s basically minus two weeks. And then, in Q1 we’re focused on productivity improvement and making a groundwork for higher volume in the remainder of the year. But obviously if you do the math, it doesn’t mean there is going to be a very big scale up as you get towards the end of the year.
Deepak Ahuja:
And we had over 10,000 orders one hand, so it’s not a demand issue that we’re delivering [indiscernible] number, get a lot of cars in transit as we are again, adjusting our global mix of deliveries.
Ryan Brinkman:
Okay, all right.
Elon Musk:
A lot of cars in transits [indiscernible].
Ryan Brinkman:
Thank you.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Patrick Archambault with Goldman Sachs. Your line is open.
Patrick Archambault:
Thank you, yes, good evening. I just wanted to follow-up actually just on some of the comments you made about being less adventures for the X relative - for the Model 3, excuse me, relative to the X and playing it a little bit safer. Can you just give us a sense of what some of these characteristics and features are that you might have at one point been considering for the initial version that maybe put in place for a later model upgrade.
Elon Musk:
We can’t tell you that. I mean - so yes, this is - yes, with the X we had the Falcon Wing door, which is a first sort of double X rating gullwing door basically we called Falcon Wing door. Getting that right and making sure it works really well and [indiscernible] mechanic, but is a fundamental improvement in utility and aesthetics for cars is extremely difficult. And as a reason, I’ll [do] [ph] when I’ve done this. And then the second row on the Model X is like it is a second row is [indiscernible] of sculptural beauty they’re amazing. They are the nicest second row seats you’ve ever seen in any car ever. That actually might have been harder than the door. And there was some other things about the X that people don’t know about yet. But those who went to driving schedule [indiscernible] second row seat and the door. So then going to Model 3, we want to - and I think we want to have particularly in super high volume. It’s something that [indiscernible] that for this feature we lose a year of production. That’s - it would make more sense just go with something that we know people are going to love, that’s going to be incredibly beautiful and functional and an amazing car. And then innovate in more, I don’t know, [indiscernible] directions on that platform with future iterations where we are not - we can then put aside any schedule and volume concern.
Patrick Archambault:
Understood, certainly looking forward to seeing the X. Have you guys said when - is there going to be any sort of advanced - sort of showing of it at any auto shows or anything some of the more bench prototype ahead of the launch that we should be looking forward to?
Elon Musk:
Because there are these sort of different features that I mentioned [indiscernible] we’re not going to show it until gets delivered.
Patrick Archambault:
Interesting, okay, okay. Switching gears a little bit back on China, just on orders, I understand that the deliveries have been significantly impacted by a number of the issues that you’ve described but how have orders been trending in China? Especially now that you’ve made some replacements, on the management side, you seem to have a solution well in hand that’s being implemented to address some of the concerns whether they were justified or not. How have you seen kind of the Model S order book track, pre and sort of post those issues?
Elon Musk:
Well, [Tom’s] [ph] only have been in charge for a short period of time, but - the trend is positive already. So I think [indiscernible] improving every week. And it’s some of the like elementary things that we were missing before like maps and directions – so the car didn’t have maps and directions in China which was important. So now it does, and we don’t have like onboard [indiscernible] working which we will have soon, so there is a lot of functionality that’s just getting out [indiscernible], pretty helpful. So yes, the trend is positive. I don’t have any significant concerns about it right now.
Patrick Archambault:
I mean it had been - some had reported that orders had been coming in somewhere in the neighborhood of a 100 a day and - which all obviously point to a pretty good annual run rate and is that sort of at least the order of magnitude that you’re trending at and that you can get back to in the shorter-term?
Elon Musk:
The problem last year was that we had a whole bunch of speculators that were basically trying to buy [indiscernible] the cars and resell them at a higher price, which was not something we allow. So it gave like an inflated sense of demand in the beginning, it wasn’t real.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yeah. I don’t think we were at 100 a day at any time.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Deepak Ahuja:
Even [indiscernible] 50,000 plus car shipped in China alone, [indiscernible] any annualized rate. I don’t know what the source is.
Patrick Archambault:
Okay, that’s helpful color though. Last one for me is just more of an accounting clarification. I think in one of the pages you talk about direct leasing, impacting, I guess reducing, sorry, both non-GAAP and GAAP profitability. I think we understand why it reduces GAAP profitability. We’ve actually addressed that a lot in this call, but non-GAAP I was just wondering why that would be impacted.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes, because we still hold the title for the car and we haven’t collected full cash on the car. And so we don’t recognize direct leased cars even in our non-GAAP financials, pretty simple.
Patrick Archambault:
Understood. Okay. Thanks a lot guys.
Elon Musk:
Yes, but as I mentioned that we can always free up that cash by securitizing our internal leases and/or by just getting warehouse loan facility. So [indiscernible] yes, [indiscernible], I guess what I would consider our real revenue is actually higher than our non-GAAP revenue, because of the internal [leases] [ph].
Patrick Archambault:
Got it. Okay, great. Thanks a lot guys.
Elon Musk:
And I mean the vehicles delivered to customers is really the key metrics that I’d focus on. We don’t give people a car unless they’ve paid for it. Paid for it somehow and the average price for car is pretty obvious, so that’s really the key number.
Patrick Archambault:
Okay. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Operator:
Next question comes from Rod Lache of Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.
Rod Lache:
Hi, everybody. I apologize if this has been answered. I’d some phone problems here, but I was hoping you might be able to help us with what you see as the run rate of sales for Model S right now and that bridge to the 55,000. Should we look at the 40,000 deliveries or maybe it’s 46,000 if you annualize what you did and add in the delayed Model D? Is that a run rate, and then to get from here to 55,000, where is China now? What does it need to be and what actually are you including for the Model X this year?
Elon Musk:
Yes. So [indiscernible] even if our sales in China were zero this year, zero, I’m still confident we could do the 55,000 cars, [they might be zero] [ph]. So as far as what the mix is between S and X, it’s really tricky, I wish I could tell you with accuracy, but it really depends on how the production ramp goes with the X when we start up this summer. And even small changes in that ramp can have quite a dramatic effect on X production.
Deepak Ahuja:
So, actually for the calendar year because it’s late.
Elon Musk:
Exactly.
Deepak Ahuja:
Long-term makes no difference.
Elon Musk:
Yes, exactly. If we are producing and I would say 800 Xs a week, and if - several weeks it’s like several thousand cars. So it’s just really - it’s really tricky to predict it from - I can much easier predict like next year. Assuming people like the car, that’s where you start to see, yes, I don’t know, 40,000, 30,000 40,000 at least. Maybe, 50,000, let’s call it 30,000 to 50,000 Xs next year.
Rod Lache:
Okay. And clearly up until now as you pointed out, you’ve been able to hit all these numbers without any advertising and marketing.
Elon Musk:
And no endorsements, and no discounts.
Rod Lache:
Right, to get…
Elon Musk:
We haven’t paid anyone to pretend that they like our car.
Rod Lache:
Right, and…
Elon Musk:
Which is a very important point.
Rod Lache:
And no franchise dealers and you know all these things that you know - people had said that you might need to do, you’ve been able to do it without any of them. But I’m just curious about kind of longer-term to get to the volume objectives that you are looking for this year and beyond, is - are all of those in your view achievable while avoiding the franchise dealer model, while holding back on advertising and marketing and while in some cases even raising prices for example, in Europe to adjust for currency or any of those impediments to the demand objectives that you have and would you modify the strategy in any way to achieve these volume numbers?
Elon Musk:
I think we’re going to be okay on the demand side for this year. I mean maybe something changes next year but I think we’ll be okay and I don’t think we’re going have to do a bunch of advertising or [indiscernible] with the dealers or anything like that this year and or discount the cars or anything like that. So if I - I do want to emphasize that whenever you feel like a celebrity or some prominent person driving our car they all paid full retail. There was no discount. We didn’t give them the car, they are buying the car and they are driving because they really believe in the car, not because someone paid them to pretend that they do. So we may give them credit for the people [indiscernible] brought the car. So yes, I think we - I do have a secret weapon on the demand side that will probably start to deploy later this year for demand generation. We’ll see how that goes. It isn’t totally necessary but I think and it could be pretty interesting, I could [indiscernible] dealers.
Rod Lache:
Okay. And just one last question I had, you mentioned in your letter that the margin was pressured half by revenue and half by cost factors. The FX part of this was pretty clear but there was a comment in there about deferred autopilot revenue, could you just explain, maybe just elaborate a little bit on what you meant actually in that description of the margin variance?
Deepak Ahuja:
On that particular one, Rod, we announced several features that the autopilot functionality or hardware will deliver. Those features - although the hardware is in the car, some of them will get activated through software releases later this year. And so based on the [indiscernible] aspect of revenue for accounting we had to defer some of that revenue into 2015. And I think it’s as simple as that. Yes.
Rod Lache:
Okay. That variance versus the 28% original objective or is that versus - what was that comparison against?
Deepak Ahuja:
That was, yes, it’s part of that because we had to figure out the accounting for it, work through the whole thing and it - as we deferred a significant amount there that had an impact to our otherwise delivered car gross margins that would have been there.
Elon Musk:
It’s like another 0.5% or something like that.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes, that’s right.
Elon Musk:
Maybe 0.5% to 0.7% or something.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yes.
Elon Musk:
And - but most of that deferral will be taken care of this quarter with the software release next month which will add a bunch more functionality to the car. Right now, I’m really excited about the software release we have planned for next month. There is a bunch of features in it that are going to positively affect entire fleet and then of course we’ll add more autopilot capability.
JB Straubel:
That is simply exciting.
Elon Musk:
Yes, it’s going to be a really, really good release.
Rod Lache:
Thank you.
Deepak Ahuja:
Patrick, before we go to the next question, I just want to do a time check with Elon, we’re coming up on hour mark, and we have several more questioners in the queue.
Elon Musk:
Yes, we can keep running.
Deepak Ahuja:
Okay, all right, Patrick.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Dan Galves with Credit Suisse. Your line is open.
Dan Galves:
Hi, thanks good evening. I just had a question on the delivery guidance, if you adjust that for in this additional in transit vehicles I am just trying to get a sense of whether you feel like that’s your best guess on kind of your max production for 2015 because my sense coming to the year around a 1000 a week is you could produce a lot more than that. So I am just getting a sense of - what part of that is demand constraint and what part is production constraint?
Elon Musk:
Well, I mean we are all going to try to do a little better than the 55 number. So we’re saying 55 plus, but we’re going to try do a little better than that. But it is - it’s really dependent on how the X ramp goes that can have quite a – if it happens, okay, later, it’s going to [indiscernible] that could affect the delivered number quite significantly, also when I say delivered, it’s like we got to also factor in, it’s like lots of cars in ships…
Deepak Ahuja:
Correct, the gap between production and delivery time.
Elon Musk:
Yes.
Deepak Ahuja:
And then we need to consider there could be disruption during launch of X and so when you are looking at that broad number of 55,000 or [indiscernible] there are things we need to consider through the year what happens.
Elon Musk:
Yes, this 55 is like a number we’re pretty comfortable with achieving on deliveries and, yes, we are [indiscernible] making a conscious decision to focus on productivity this quarter, not just on ramping production, [indiscernible] production stability, in order to get that efficiency, like when we need to be building a firm foundation before future growth. And if we just in helter-skelter, production ramp, trying to just grow production numbers is really hard to get productivity and that kind of fixes the foundational elements. So the conscious decision this quarter to [indiscernible] improve our core productivity. I mean running at [indiscernible]. Our Fremont plan is pretty big and it’s hard to park. So we need to just get these productivity improvements in place so we can grow our production volume without proportionately growing headcount.
Dan Galves:
That makes a lot of sense. And then just one kind of housekeeping question, you put the chart at the beginning of the shareholder letter with revenue guidance for 2015. Is there anything in there for trade-in sales, for used car sales? And do you have any sort of sense of kind of what type of drag on gross margin sale of trade-ins will be?
Deepak Ahuja:
There’s a small amount of that and we are just getting into that business now and our goal is certainly not to make that same kind of money on our used cars.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, used cars also affect the capital - [we don’t have] [ph] any capital in there really, [indiscernible] turnaround capitals [indiscernible], so it’s actually like the used car - your margin is actually - it’s on a ROI basis is extremely good.
Deepak Ahuja:
Right, when the dealers do make lot more gross margin on used cars than new cars, and that’s not our intention but the ROI is still really good for us.
Elon Musk:
Yes. But we’re going to separate that out so that we can see new car gross margin versus used car, service and other things.
Deepak Ahuja:
Which brings up a good point that as we said at - towards the end of our shareholder letter, starting for 2015 financials we are going to show our income statement slightly differently, the automotive revenues and cost of goods sold is truly new-car sales and then we have services and other sections of the income statement that has all these other things including trade-ins and….
Elon Musk:
Yes, so we will break it out so you can see clearly like what’s the new Model S gross margin, what’s the used, what’s other things, yeah.
Dan Galves:
Yes, it’s really appreciated, thanks.
Elon Musk:
All right.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Trip Chowdhry with Global Equity Research, your line is open.
Trip Chowdhry:
Thank you. Two quick questions. We see a lot of similarity between Apple and Tesla, both cos - both companies go for perfection, performance and design. But we don’t see Apple making a $30 iPhone. I was just wondering instead of focusing on Model 3, and we just focused on say Model S, say Model X, but made them even better, you just focus on increasing the range to say 400 miles, 450 miles, you already have the roadster which is at 400 miles now, I think that would make Tesla very differentiated.
Elon Musk:
Not quite 400 miles. The Roadster is sort of more like 360, but close to 400 miles, yes, with the upgrade. Capable of doing LA, San Francisco, but yes. And so, yes, I mean the goal of Tesla, from the beginning, has always been to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport, and to make electric cars happen much faster than what was [indiscernible]. So in order to do that we have to make lots of cars and we need to make them a heck a lot more affordable than S and X are today. Even with the Model 3 though, I mean it is sort of a mass market premium car. It’s not – it’s still premium, but it’s mass market premium, at 35K, it’s not a, yes, it’s above average car.
JB Straubel:
Yes, I think it’s also not an either/or decision. We definitely will keep making S and X better and we will keep improving that platform really as much as a technology rollout. So we’re going in both of those directions.
Trip Chowdhry:
Perfect, thank you.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Andrew Fung with CLSA. Your line is open.
Andrew Fung:
Thanks for taking my question. So the Gigafactory seems to be making some good progress in terms of construction. Could you provide an update on how the development of the battery supply chain is progressing and perhaps any notable challenges or perhaps positive surprises that have occurred with that process.
JB Straubel:
Sure, I can take that one, this is JB. So far we’ve been pretty pleased with the supply chain development. We’re spending a lot of time visiting more and more of the supply chain partners and understanding and learning about all those different markets. That learning is progressing quickly and I think we’re getting a much more clear picture of exactly how we will achieve the cost reductions we’ve talked about. I don’t want to go into too many specifics on exactly sort of what we’ve learned in which places. But I would say there is a lot - maybe more incremental positivity on some of the commodities and some of the ways I think we can secure and procure pricing on some of the larger commodity prices that go into the cell.
Andrew Fung:
Great, and any sense of when you guys may announce additional either suppliers or partners for the Gigafactory.
JB Straubel:
We want to be a little bit cautious about doing that too soon. There is obviously a lot of work going on and discussion with all of those partners, but I think we just - we want to be careful to make sure that all the agreements and decision on the - where that partnership is headed is very clear. So we will wait until, it’s really done and ready to announce.
Andrew Fung:
Great, thank you.
Operator:
Next question comes from Andrea James with Dougherty & Company. Your line is open.
Andrea James:
Thanks for taking my follow-up, why did you guys promise the Roadster 3.0 this year?
Elon Musk:
It’s just a long-standing obligation we have, it’s not something that economically is a win for us, but it’s just an obligation to our early adopters of Tesla; we said we’d provide a significant upgrade to the roadster and that’s what we’re doing. And I think – it’s okay, I mean it’s not a big, big thing one way or the other, slightly economically just [unfavorable to] [ph] Tesla.
Andrea James:
And so if I read through on the range communication on the Roadster 3.0 and I just apply that sort of same range gain to the Model S I guess I get a 350 mile to 400 mile range Model S by say 2017. Is that the right, I mean, is that - is all the gains there translatable?
Elon Musk:
It’s not simple to put an exact time on it, if you, like 2017, probably not in 2017, at some point, yes. I don’t know if that - whether that’s 2017, but it’s not 2017 but it might be say 2019 or 2020 or something like that. [Indiscernible] We can make the Model S go 400 miles today, if we wanted to by just increasing the pack size.
Andrea James:
Great. I mean at the same - I meant at the same cost, same pack cost say give $22,000 pack, will be 400 mile range the next couple of years, but seems that is a bit too aggressive.
Elon Musk:
Next couple years is a bit too aggressive. If you go five years out, that might be the case. That’s not a prediction, that’s just speculation. But I’d say it’s not two years but it might be five years.
Andrea James:
Okay, and then just I feel like we should just generally ask your thoughts on oil, although it’s a pretty broad question. So may be just general thoughts on oil, but then more pointedly what it does to the residual value of the cars and then also maybe the corresponding offset with lifting the value of ZEV credits as more gas guzzling cars are sold, I don’t know, there you go.
Elon Musk:
Well, as far as oil is concerned, I mean, I’m not an expert on oil business. But obviously fracking has massively increased the available oil reserves worldwide, fracking [indiscernible] more expensive than standard oil drilling so there is sort of a cost of doing it that sets a floor on fracking. It’s really anyone’s guess as to what happens with oil prices long-term. Demand is certainly going to increase, sort of like how well the supply go to match that. But for sure oil companies are going to be scaling back their investments in new oil fields massively with low price for oil today. So expect that - I’d expect that as…
Andrea James:
But as it translates to the impacts on demand for your vehicles, and then also the residual value of those vehicles.
Elon Musk:
It certainly has some effects but I wouldn’t say - it’s not a dramatic effect. I mean it’s, I call it a moderate effect. And I’m not - it is not changing any of my projections [indiscernible].
Andrea James:
Thank you.
Deepak Ahuja:
Okay.
Operator:
Thank you. This ends our Q&A session today. I’ll turn it back to management for closing remarks.
Jeff Evanson:
Thank you everyone for joining us few hours later, obviously that was important to get [indiscernible]. And so, thank you and good night.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen thanks for participating in today’s program. This concludes the program. You may all disconnect.
Executives:
Aaron Chew - Vice President of Investor Relations Lyndon R. Rive - Co-Founder, Chief Executive Officer and Director Tanguy Vincent Serra - Chief Operations Officer Brad W. Buss - Chief Financial Officer
Analysts:
Patrick Jobin - Crédit Suisse AG, Research Division Brian K. Lee - Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division Krish Sankar - BofA Merrill Lynch, Research Division Jerimiah Booream-Phelps - Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division Paul Coster - JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co. Incorporated, Research Division Philip Shen - Roth Capital Partners, LLC, Research Division Josh Baribeau - Canaccord Genuity, Research Division Y. Edwin Mok - Needham & Company, LLC, Research Division
Operator:
Greetings, and welcome to the Third Quarter 2014 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would now like to turn the conference over to your host, Mr. Aaron Chew, Vice President of Investor Relations. You may begin.
Aaron Chew:
Thank you, and good afternoon to all those joining us today for SolarCity's Third Quarter 2014 Earnings Conference Call. Leading the presentation today will be a discussion from our Chief Executive Officer, Lyndon Rive; and our Chief Operating Officer, Tanguy Serra; as well as some final earnings commentary from our new Chief Financial Officer, Brad Buss, after which point in time, we will open it up to questions. As a reminder, today's discussion will contain forward-looking statements that involve our views as of today based on information currently available to us. Forward-looking statements should not be considered a guarantee of future performance or results and reflect information that may change over time. Please refer to SolarCity's shareholder letter issued today as well as the slides accompanying this letter as well as our periodic report filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission for a discussion of forward-looking statements and the factors and risks that could cause our actual results to differ from our forward-looking statements. We do not undertake any obligation to publicly update or revise any forward-looking statements. In addition, during the course of this call, we will use a number of specially defined terms relating to our business metrics and financial results, including non-GAAP financial metrics. We refer to the definitions of these terms and the required reconciliation between GAAP and non-GAAP financial metrics included in the shareholder letter today and slides accompanying this presentation, which are available on our Investor Relations website at investors.solarcity.com. With that finally behind us, I would like to introduce SolarCity's Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Lyndon Rive.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Thank you, Aaron. Q3 was a record quarter for the company. We booked 230 megawatts, which is a 150% increase from Q3 last year. We also installed 137 megawatts, which is a 77% increase from Q3 last year. Our residential installations increased by 100%. The last 3 months had been amazing. We launched 4 new products. I'm super pleased with the entire team for all the hard work they did on launching these new products. So the first product we launched is MyPower. MyPower broadens the offering to our customers that want their own systems, but they still receive the benefits of paying for power. The goal of MyPower is unique as it pays off the loan with the energy that the system produces. The other product we launched, 2 new products on the mounting hardware side, ZS Peak and ZS Beam. ZS Peak allows us to provide more kilowatt hours per square foot, and ZS Beam reduces our cost of installs for carports. Then finally, we're very happy to announce Solar Bonds. This is an additional source of capital, but more importantly, it will allow every American to participate in the energy transformation. We normally raise capital only institutional investors can participate, but now everybody can participate in the benefits of deploying clean energy. So as you can see, the last 3 months has been very, very busy. Moving forward on to contracted payments. For the quarter, we had -- we added over $800 million of nominal contracts, and we now have $4.1 billion of contracted payments coming to SolarCity. Our customer count continues to grow. We have over 168,000 customers, and we're well on our way to achieve our 1 million customer goal by mid-2018. To achieve this, we only need to grow at 61% a year, and historically, we've always grown at 100% per year, so I'm feeling very confident about achieving our 1 million customer goal come mid-2018. Our market share continues to grow. With our vertical integrated model, it allows us to invest into our people and to our products. We have the best-looking systems at the lowest cost. We've gone from 11% to 36% in less than 3 years. Our residential division is now larger than the next 50 competitors combined. I'm now going to hand it over to Tanguy Serra, our COO.
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
Thank you, Lyndon. So Q3 was a great quarter for SolarCity with 137 megawatts deployed, of which 18 megawatts of commercial installs and 119 megawatts of residential installs, up 100% year-on-year. We are doubling our install capacity every year of already large numbers. We've developed sophisticated compensation structures across the organization and infrastructure to grow our warehouse footprint and our fleet. This allows us to grow our capacity, while reducing our costs at the same time. We have a massive amount of proprietary mobile accessible web-based software to track the location of our assets and the stage in our pipeline of our customers, which links our call centers and our operation centers, including a number of predictive algorithms to ensure no disruption on our supply chain. I truly believe we have cracked the code on growing residential solar, while lowering cost at the same time. We added 6 new warehouses in Q3 and we'll add another 14 in Q4, mainly on the East Coast, in Arizona and in California, to satisfy the demand for our products. We cover 95% of the population on our core states within a 30-mile radius of our warehouses. We already covered 26% of the total population of the U.S. Our commercial megawatts came in below our internal forecast. Part of the main reasons for this is that we have a series of commercial projects, about 10 megawatts, with a developer with whom we are having issues. We're expecting 3 megawatts in Q3 and about 7 megawatts in Q4. Based on where we stand today, I don't see those systems getting installed this year. We're on track to install 179 megawatts to 194 megawatts in Q4. The range is wide, given the weather and the holiday season for inspections and the potential for commercial jobs slipping in Q1. But we don't see any significant operational constraints that we control outside of Massachusetts. This implies a full year number of 505 to 520 megawatts, which is still almost doubling year-on-year with 10 megawatts shy of where we wanted to land given the commercial job I mentioned earlier. Importantly, we expect to enter 2015 on track to deploy 920 megawatts to a full gigawatt in 2015. The R&D team at Zep is continuing to innovate. After having giving up -- after having given up a significant competitive advantage in residential installs, Jack West and his team are turning their minds into the commercial space and have come up with innovative restructures for flat roofs, for carports, consistent with our principle of optimizing every piece of the process from parts to labor for the overall benefit of the customer. Both ZS Peak and ZS Beam allow for significantly faster install times, reducing labor costs, while increasing their production in kilowatt hours, and ultimately, revenue available per square foot of line or roof. So let us continue to perform according to plan. The unique architecture of the sale is allowing [indiscernible] and his team to continue having breakthroughs, which we're excited about and hope to be able to talk about in the near future. The building in New York is on schedule and we expect to be producing more build in 2016 and ramp up to full capacity in 2017. As I mentioned, in Q3, we saw 100% growth in residential installs, a growing of capacity and our infrastructure and the continued investment in R&D. Despite that, we have continued reducing unit costs significantly, taking another $0.13 off the cost structure and getting us under $3 a watt fully loaded costs. We've taken out $0.13 a watt on a unit basis in one quarter out of our cost structure, massive achievements. The vast majority of these costs are fundamental productivity improvements for which I'm incredibly proud of the men and women of SolarCity. Our sales and our operations group work as one team and we're all focused on the build cost of our assets. I'm particularly focused on our installation costs. At scale, overhead will not be significant and the #1 reason for not going solar is people don't care about it. As solar becomes like other basic services, insurance or cell phone, the cost of acquisition will fall as we have seen in those industries. I should mention our quality and safety are at all-time highs, proving best-in-class productivity and cost structures, quality and safety do truly go together as we have seen in other industries also. Page 12 on the chart, I'm particularly happy with. Over the last 8 quarters, we have continually been taking out costs. We IPO-ed a cost structure of $3.93 a watt and we've taken our total cost down to $2.90 a watt. This is all the cash-out, including all the sales costs, all the overhead, all of our R&D, infrastructure growth, government affairs team legal, et cetera, et cetera, all-in costs, under $3 a watt at $2.80 a watt currently right now. Take out full $1 per watt or 25% of our total cost structure, 1/3 of the install cost, another 2 years, while doubling and installing 0.5 gigawatt, summarized in a couple of PowerPoint slides, a massive amount of work and the sacrifice of 7,500 SolarCity employees have done over the last 8 quarters. I'm incredibly grateful to everyone wearing the SolarCity logo on their shirt today. Last quarter, we set ourselves a goal of $1.90 a watt install cost by 2017. In light of our recent performance, we will reiterate this number. But we also wanted to communicate a conservative goal of an all-in cost of $2.50 per watt. As you can see, this assumes marginal reduction in cost of acquisition overhead. And Hayes and Jonathan Beamer and the entire marketing and sales organizations are all over transforming how solar is sold at a significantly lower cost. And we hope to be able to update this number as our efforts kick in. Lastly, I'm about to pass the floor over to the only person who's more allergic to overheads than I am, my partner and associate CFO, Brad Buss. Brad, over to you.
Brad W. Buss:
Thanks, Tanguy. You're a cost animal, and as a CFO, I really appreciate that. Hi, everybody. I'm very excited to join the team. It's a fascinating company at a fascinating time and sure makes my time in semiconductors look much slower than what it really was. I'm very excited to be here working with the team on cost returns, and more importantly, driving a long-term value creation. I see that very heavily in our cards and one of the main reasons why I joined. So one of the first questions I get from people is, what happens to the business post the planned ITC step-down in 2017? My answer is it's really business as usual. Pete and Lyndon have built this company from day 1 and driving to a cost structure that is very profitable, and most importantly, in a non-incentivized world, as Tanguy has shown you, we have a strong cost discipline, which I'm very grateful for as a CFO, and our target of $2.50 in 2017 will allow us to drive very healthy profits and returns for the long run with NPVs greater than $1 per watt. In addition, I think the competition will struggle to be anywhere near this cross-target. And more importantly, this overhang that many of you get hung up on will be gone and you'll be able to model the business long term with even greater confidence. And as well, any extension or any other incentive would only be upside to the model, and we will take that if and when that comes. Retained value is a very strong indicator for the long-term value that we're creating and it really isn't apparent from reading our financial statements. The Q3 increase in retained value grew 104% year-over-year, and we ended the quarter with a cumulative value of $2.2 million. The quarterly increases will continue to grow materially each quarter as the law of large numbers and rapid growth work in concert. Go do the math like I did before I joined, for the next 3 to 5 years and I think your jaw will drop regardless of the assumptions that you will use. So just some housekeeping on the financials. We had a lot of stuff going on in Q3, and I just want to highlight some of it, just to put it in perspective. So on the convert, we issued $500 million of convertible notes at a fixed rate of 1.625%. The conversion price is $83.53. And we also purchased a capped call, which is the first time it's been done here at SolarCity, in a separate transaction. That will end up raising our net as-converted price upon expiration to $126.08. Obviously, a very bullish sign of what we expect for the future. I'd be disappointed if we don't go north of that by that time frame. The greenshoe was exercised in October for $66 million, and again, we have the same capped call on that piece. Silevo closed in late September and there's a lot of accounting that goes with that. We issued 2.28 million of shares, and there's a lot of balance sheet impact that you can see in our 10-Q that'll come out tomorrow. Overall, the integration's gone very well. We're focused on bringing Buffalo up and introducing new products and driving our costs down. As you'll see, our GAAP net loss was smaller than expected due to tight OpEx controls and also due to the onetime noncash benefit in the tax line related to our Silevo acquisition where we released a portion of our valuation of allowance. In addition, we ended the quarter with GAAP earnings per share, yes, I said earnings, due to a higher share of the loss being absorbed by our noncontrolling interest under the HLBV accounting rules. I don't expect that to continue on an ongoing basis. As you know, it varies wildly and will fluctuate and we're not guiding for that for Q4. Solar Bonds, I'll discuss a little more later, but there's no impact to Q3 since we launched in October. Basically, the same thing for MyPower, I'll cover that as well. But there's really nothing of any material amount that was in the Q3 numbers. So as you see, we've moved our earnings release to a shareholder letter concept. It's our first attempt to try to describe our business model and results in an easier fashion since, quite frankly, the GAAP accounting doesn't fully reflect our business and the value that we're creating. The team here is very focused on providing more details. I think you'll see continual changes over the next few quarters. And if you have any suggestions or ideas, please reach out. If you go through our GAAP statement of operations, a couple of things I'd like to point out. The operating lease revenue increased 110% year-on-year. Gross margin was 51% and that included $2 million of intangibles. If you exclude the intangibles, we had really an operating gross margin of about 55%. The vast majority of the operating expenses, which totaled $100 million, were incurred to add the additional $804 million of contracted payments as we discussed earlier, a very good leverage on each dollar invested. Also, in our Q3 OpEx, we had $16.5 million of noncash expenses associated with stock-based comp, as well as some intangible amortization. And we also had a benefit of $6 million from the receipt of some -- certain insurance proceeds. On the balance sheet, if you look at the cash end of it, you'll see cash and you'll also see investments for the first time. That totaled $733 million. A lot of ins and outs and we obviously have the convert, as I talked about, that after the capped call, netted us about $431 million. We had tax equity proceeds of $223 million, ABS proceeds of $196 million, and we put out $137 million in various debt payments. We also invested $343 million into new solar system assets. So again, you'll see a lot more detail and explanations in the 10-Q. Overall, I would just say I think our finances are in very good shape. I don't see the need to do any type of equity raises anytime soon. We're adding new global banking partners. And I think long term, you're going to see us continue to focus on dropping our cost of capital. Solar Bonds. Very excited to see that product and be part of it. Our plan is to broaden our pool of solar ambassadors, allow retail investors to achieve better-than-market returns, which are, quite frankly, pathetic right now, as well as participate in the distributed generation revolution. We rolled it out as a soft launch. It's exceeded our early expectations. And we've had page views of over 100,000. And we were -- we've signed up bondholders at every state in the country. We will begin the first wave of marketing next week post this earnings. And due to the fact that we have an open registration, there's not a lot of details we can provide at this time. Please go see the website for more details. MyPower, a very popular question lately, and as Lyndon said, it's an extremely important product for us. I mean, the most important thing is that it expands the available market. For us, we're now able to capture homeowners that want to own versus lease. It's being very well received across all markets. And it's also the first product that doesn't require financing through tax equity funds and also allows us to have the home under -- homeowner under contract for 30 years versus the standard 20-year contract plus the 10-year renewals. All very positive from a financial perspective. The introductory rate is 5%, and we'll go down to 4.5% if you sign up for ACH. We plan on evaluating the rate periodically and will adjust it as necessary. In the end, the incremental retained value we're creating with this product as well as adding new customers is very healthy for the long-term returns of the company. I'll now finish up with some guidance. For Q4 2014, we're expecting megawatts deployed of 179 to 194, driven mostly by residential. This will yield you 505 megawatts. It's 525 megawatts for the year, and obviously, it excludes the commercial job that went sideways as Tanguy described. Operating lease and solar energy systems revenue of $47 million to $52 million. Remember, we get a little bit of Q4 weather seasonality that impacts that number and the same for the gross margin. I would see solar energy system sales of $20 million to $24 million, driven mostly by commercial. The operating lease gross margins, again, 35% to 40%, impacted by the weather seasonality and a tick-up in intangibles from Silevo. If you adjust out the intangibles, you'll see operating lease gross margins of 45% to 50%. Operating expenses of $118 million to $128 million, up from Q3. It's really due to just hires that we're doing in the sales end of things to drive the future growth. And remember, included in that, we have $22 million to $28 million of noncash expenses related to stock-based comp and intangibles. And if you roll that all together, I would expect a non-GAAP loss per share of $1.25 to $1.35, and again, that doesn't include any assumptions for HLBV due to the inability to forecast that. As Tanguy discussed, our 2015 megawatts deployed have been adjusted up to 922 gigawatt with very high confidence. In summary, I'm very excited to be here. It's an amazing company at the start of an amazing journey. I've been very impressed with the financial discipline. I love the market leadership. And more importantly, we're just in the infancy of a long ride. So if you take a look at the retained value that we're talking about and look at growth rates in the future, it's pretty amazing. So all I'd say is buckle up, it's going to be an amazing ride. And we'll now turn it -- open to questions.
Operator:
[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Patrick Jobin with Crédit Suisse.
Patrick Jobin - Crédit Suisse AG, Research Division:
So a few quick questions for me. First, it seems like backlog is building a little bit. I guess, Tanguy, how are you thinking about installation capacity today to get to that Q4 number, how you're alleviating that? Then I have a follow-up.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Yes, this is Lyndon. So the -- right now, there's no real constraints in the operations. So if you look at the bookings that we had in Q2, it was 218 or so. That's now getting installed -- a big -- a majority of that is being installed now in late Q3 and Q4. We do have some commercial projects that push out. And then we also have -- in the net bookings of the last quarter, there are some cancellations, and those cancellations get netted out in the next quarter's bookings. Currently, the only constraint is Massachusetts. Correct, Tanguy?
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
Correct. Yes, that's exactly right, the -- we cracked the code on how to grow here and so we're growing to make sure that we bring in [indiscernible] on time to make sure that we develop the megawatts that they can build. The only place which is hard is Massachusetts where the [indiscernible] requirements there are somewhat annoying and difficult to deal with, but everywhere else is in great shape.
Lyndon R. Rive:
And then our install time frames for the average, so the medium is about 85 days right now.
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
75.
Lyndon R. Rive:
75?
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
Across the company.
Lyndon R. Rive:
And then the average is about...
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
On average, it takes us 75 days to install across the company and that includes some of the longer time lines in Mass as well as some of the Nevada jobs where they were sold before the install. The program opened up and so there's a natural sort of time line there. But overall, we're in great shape.
Patrick Jobin - Crédit Suisse AG, Research Division:
Got it. Makes sense. And then just a question, when I think about kind of profit margins on new contracts, so I guess, certainly, retained value will become a little bit more complicated with the loan product. But if I look at Q3, I'm calculating an incremental retained value per watt of about $1.72 versus last quarter's $2. Just want to better understand what drove that decline? And then bigger picture, how are you thinking about, I guess, NPV per watt for loan versus lease and what your expectations are for mix?
Aaron Chew:
Patrick, it's Aaron. I'll tackle the first and let Lyndon tackle the second one. So on the implied derived incremental retained value, really, 3 things there. One is a little bit lower resi commercial mix. A little bit, not a huge factor. But the bigger driver, actually was that the commercial incremental was just below the low end of our historical range just because of some specific -- the economics of some specific projects signed that quarter. Also, resi was down a little bit, but still, I'd say in the $1.80 to $1.90 range, reflecting, as we've discussed a little bit in the past, the new California pricing strategy, so.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Yes, one question to add-on to it, Aaron, is the -- hopefully, I've been consistent on every earnings call. The incremental unit is not the unit that one should be looking at. One should be looking at the total retained value because what's important is how many dollars are we collecting on the dollars per watt. I don't think that's the metric. Like if you had the choice of deploying 2x the megawatts, but at a 20% less retained number, it would be wise to do that. And then on MyPower, out of the gate, it's been received quite well. This is a total guess. This is not a forecast at all, just an expectation on what I think will happen. I'd say probably move to late next year, Q2 to Q3 will be at a run rate, not for the year, but at a run rate at about, call it, 40% to 50% of our residential business. So we like it. We think it's going to be a great product for us to launch. On the interest rates, as Brad mentioned, we have essentially an introductory interest rate of 4.5%. We will continue evaluating that and it's a very high probability we'll increase that. I just don't know exactly when. Do we increase it in Q1 or Q2? But that's roughly the time frame that we're looking at.
Operator:
Our next question is from Brian Lee with Goldman Sachs.
Brian K. Lee - Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division:
Maybe to follow up on those comments, Lyndon. On MyPower specifically, I was wondering, can you give us any better sense from a volume perspective where you think it has the most potential to be additive in the next 12 months? So are there states that you now target that you haven't before? And what are those? And then in the states you're in already, where do you see most upside for MyPower? And what are some of the dynamics that might be driving that in those locations?
Lyndon R. Rive:
Sure. So in terms of new state expansion, it's very hard to move the needle. At the size that we are right now, no new state can move the needle within a 1-year period. It's going to be very hard to do that. It takes -- every other state is doubling. So I mean, you start off with a small foundation at a new state, it takes a few years for that to really impact the business. So if you were to look at MyPower and actually look at the impact to the business, it'll be within our existing states. And out of that, I'd say the popular states would be Arizona, California, would probably be the 2 most popular states, oh, and then Colorado.
Brian K. Lee - Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Research Division:
Okay. Fair enough. And then just a follow-up question would be on the competitive landscape. I know there seems to be some growing concerns here in the market that pricing is potentially getting more competitive, maybe some chatter around aggressive pricing tactics by some of your peers. And so as the market starts to consolidate, which it seems like it is, if you look at the market share stats, just wondering how you're expecting pricing to trend from here and whether or not this fixed pricing strategy that you recently introduced allows you to raise prices along with utilities, and I guess over the next 12 months, if that's the trend as it has been in states like California.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Yes, 2 things on that. So we essentially have 2 competitors. You have your -- yes, current cost of retail energy, which is competitor A, which to us is the #1 competitor and then you have solar competitors. So in terms of the -- competitor A, the current energy provider, their costs continue to go up and in our fixed pricing, should be able to go up. But then you have to match it up against competition. Our current cost is lower than our competitors by a healthy margin. We're also the only company to have successfully securitized our assets, so our cost of capital is also better. So their pricing, they're doing it purely for market gain, not because it's going to add initial volume or initial NPV for them. But we would have to react to it. Now the benefit is we have the lowest cost structure, but I don't see us moving it like -- the all indications is I think we are going to hold tight at $0.15 in California and then we've launched that fixed pricing in different -- in all the utilities that we're in. And I haven't got -- it hasn't yet needed to move it and the market is pricing very similar to one another. So I think we'll hold next year.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Krish Sankar with Bank of America Merrill Lynch.
Krish Sankar - BofA Merrill Lynch, Research Division:
I had a couple of them, and I do apologize for the background noise. First is, do you guys right now have the personnel to do a gigawatt for next year? And along those same lines, is the plan to grow the business at minimal backlog? Or do you want to grow backlog as you start growing into 2015? Then I also have a follow-up.
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
I'll take the first piece. So the answer is, no, we don't have the personnel currently. And I would separate out that on 2 buckets, right? It would be sales and install personnel versus the overhead personnel. So the install personnel, by definition, you want to make sure that you're matching on-boarding people in megawatts to be deployed to ensure that you've got a cost structure that makes sense. So what we have though, however, and this is probably the most important point, which is we've got the infrastructure, the recruiting teams to be able to onboard that personnel. So from an overhead perspective, the answer is yes. From a variable cost perspective, the answer is no. We feel very good that we got the systems and properties to be able to onboard those people. That's the first part of the question.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Aaron, just remind me again, what was the megawatts installed in Q1? 82?
Aaron Chew:
82.
Lyndon R. Rive:
82. So the -- we installed 82 megawatts in Q1. So within 3 quarters, we're now planning 190 megawatts. So it is clear that the company knows how to scale.
Brad W. Buss:
Yes. And for us, guys, just sort of from a financial perspective, it's very impressive what the team -- they have a copy-paste ability. They have fantastic tools upfront from a booking and where the market's going. And they know where they want to go and where they need to be. And then they're able to just recruit, copy-paste, drop in right ahead of time. So we don't need to build up a bunch of costs that are stuck there for a while. And it's operated very, very well so far. So I have 100% confidence on the ability to scale from a deployment perspective.
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
And then the other question is, no, I mean, I think it's just the better customer experience if you're able to get a sale or sort of sign up for solar, get a site survey within 5 days, very quickly get a design turnaround within 24 hours. And then as soon as your permit in your local jurisdiction allows you to get installed on your roof, I think it's a much, much better customer experience. And I think that's ultimately what matters to you, which is the customer experience. And then if you can combine an awesome customer experience with best-in-class cost structures and continue scale, that feels pretty good to me.
Krish Sankar - BofA Merrill Lynch, Research Division:
Got it. It's helpful.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Just one other point I -- I'm not sure that you know this, rest of increase of forecast for next year. We took up the bottom end, from 900 megawatts to 920 megawatts.
Krish Sankar - BofA Merrill Lynch, Research Division:
Right, right. And just as a follow-up, is any of the MyPower expectations rolled into your 1 gigawatt forecast for next year? Or would MyPower be additive to that forecast?
Lyndon R. Rive:
No, it's included into the 1 gigawatts.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Vishal Shah with Deutsche Bank.
Jerimiah Booream-Phelps - Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division:
This is Jerimiah on the line for Vishal. I just wanted to delve a little deeper into the cost structure here. You guys had made some good progress there and 2017 goal doesn't seem that far off. So how conservative is that? And how much is that sort of a function of the scale in the back half of the year?
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
I think you answered your own question.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Yes. But in all seriousness, we were -- going back and forth, do we even forecast the 250? So one of the concerns of forecasting the 250 was we feel very comfortable we will exceed that number. So we like -- do we forecast that? Do we want to give a more aggressive number? Should we feel that it will be more appropriate for us to forecast the 250? You can do the math on it. With a 10% ITC, we create a buffer value for every system we deploy. Assuming a 1 million customer goal, we'll be at around a 2 gigawatt run rate. That's $2 billion of incremental value every single year if we stay flat. So that's kind of the message that we wanted to convey. And then you can play around the assumptions. Okay, is it 250? Do we come in at 230? You can play with your own assumptions there. As we get better in our sales and marketing, get more leverage through OpEx and reduce overall cost, we will update that number.
Brad W. Buss:
And just another tidbit. The entire company is very heavily on performance bonuses up and to and including the stock. And Tanguy and I are very aligned in that perspective on driving costs down.
Jerimiah Booream-Phelps - Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division:
Great, that's helpful. And then also on the commercial side, given the issues that you had in the quarter and sort of the commentary around that. Would there be any change to the traditional 80-20 mix of residential versus commercial? Or are you sticking to that?
Lyndon R. Rive:
For now, we're still sticking to that. We're still investing to commercial. It's -- some of these are bound to happen when you deal with commercial, but no, we're still sticking to 80-20.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Paul Coster with JPMorgan.
Paul Coster - JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division:
A couple of quick questions. First up, there's clearly a little bit of a supply constraint in the panels coming out of China, at least in the year-end. Is that in any way a constraint in the -- at the end of this year or beginning of 2015? And then I have a quick follow-up.
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
No, our scale, we're the perfect business for these businesses. If you think about the Chinese panel manufacturers, they don't obviously have massive output and what they really care about is a consistent throughput that they could put into us. And our resi business, in particular, is virtually a weekly demand and so we're able to absorb on a weekly basis the demand that comes out. And so we're typically a first choice for a number of these panels, and we've had no issues there.
Paul Coster - JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division:
Okay, got it. And then if you deliver on these costs and your customer targets, gigawatt targets, and obviously, this is going to be producing a huge amount of free cash flow after 2017, and I'm just wondering, you must be a bit frustrated by the fact that the stock's trading at a discount to the retained value. So is it possible for you soon to articulate a dividend kind of strategy, albeit forward dated and start to sort of have a target dividend expressed so that people can start looking at this from a free cash flow or dividend perspective?
Brad W. Buss:
Yes, this is Brad. I mean, I don't think you're going to see a dividend in the card anytime soon. I mean, if you really look at it, every dollar we generate plus taking advantage of a low cost to capital that, as I mentioned, I think will only get better going forward, we plan on reinvesting every nickel with as much leverage as rational for a long time. I think what you're hitting on, though, is if you look at kind of the Power business, so to speak, all that future retained value levered, unlevered and the cash flow and margins that could come with that, that is one of the big areas that we're spending a lot of time working on internally to help provide more information and then I think we will be setting longer-term targets associated with that. But I don't want anyone thinking there'll be a cash dividend because as far as I can see, if something dramatically changes, we can be investing in this market for eternity.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Yes. I mean, even at our 1 million customer goal, we only still have a 2.5% penetration just in the markets that we serve today. So it's -- the best use of cash is to reinvest.
Brad W. Buss:
Yes. I mean, we'll go international. We'll go to other states. We'll add additional service offerings into our model. I mean, if you really look at it, we're evolving into a, really, a consumer-orientated Internet/energy provider, right, /financial institution. So I don't think there's going to be any limit on the number of things that we can add to provide greater returns than the dividend. And being 50-year-old -- 50 years old, I do appreciate dividends, but I think I would look for it in a different area.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Ben Kallo with Robert W. Baird.
Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co. Incorporated, Research Division:
Just looking at the tax equity capacity, 150 megawatts, could you just talk through that and how comfortable you feel? Because it looks like it's less than a quarter ahead. So what's changed there? And then I have a follow-up.
Brad W. Buss:
Yes, this is Brad. I mean, I think we're fully booked up for the end of the year. I mean, that is definitely a different animal. I think the thing that I've been very positive on is, obviously, with us being the market dominated -- the market driver in this area, we're seeing more and more appetite for this asset class. We're seeing a lot of movement out of the bigger utility deals, and I think even wind as this asset class becomes more mature. So yes, I don't think it's something we're ever going to have a full year in advance. But we spend a lot of time on it. We have a lot of interest from all the major banking, insurance institutions as well as a lot of the major corporations that obviously have big tax appetites and only continue to grow.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Yes, the goal, of course, is to increase that backlog. But what we find is that when we raise the capital, the investors want us to deploy the capital. So investors that have -- we certainly have capital for a long time, they don't like that. They like coming back for a repeat and continual repeats. So expect probably a quarter for now, as Brad can change some stuff there.
Brad W. Buss:
And again, I'm trying to evolve the whole financing to the company to what I call the financing factory because we really are like a factory. I mean, we're adding tens of thousands of customers, very repeatable, very consistent asset, and we're trying to evolve all the financing to kind of stay on that factory-like concept and be very repeatable, somewhat standard terms. And the nice thing is we can give a lot of the big corporations -- they weren't that excited at seeing $25 million or $50 million, but it's a lot of work to do a deal. But now with our size and the dollars, we can be giving hundreds of millions to a corporation, which gets them very excited. And then they can see that we can continue to give that out over a long-term basis and that gets them very excited. So that's kind of the big focus for 2015.
Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co. Incorporated, Research Division:
Okay. And then If I can just -- 2 quick ones. NPV a watt for MyPower and then I think there is a little bit of concern, I don't know, maybe too strong of a word, about deployments as I look out to next year, saying you're going to do 800-or-so megawatts of residential, a run rate of just over 100. Could you talk to us about how you did in October since that's passed?
Lyndon R. Rive:
No, we don't want to break out our months. So we're sticking to -- we feel very confident about the 800, but we don't want to break out the months.
Benjamin J. Kallo - Robert W. Baird & Co. Incorporated, Research Division:
Okay, got it. And then the incremental -- the NPV per watt for MyPower?
Brad W. Buss:
I think it's still a little early right now. I mean, we got -- I think we'd like to get a good quarter under our belt for the business than to see what stayed and what it's coming at, and then we'll give you some more color in the next quarter. Again, like I said earlier, I mean it's a very healthy NPV and I would take MyPower projects all day long.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Just one point on the 800 megawatts, Tanguy just mentioned this, is if you use Q4 as the proxy, you can do the math.
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
Just use -- can't give out October. It's usually quarterly guidance for Q4. Break out the residential there and multiply by 4. We're in pretty good shape.
Brad W. Buss:
I'll be disappointed if Tanguy doesn't hit that number.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Philip Shen with Roth Capital Partners.
Philip Shen - Roth Capital Partners, LLC, Research Division:
I was wondering if you could articulate your strategy and technology behind expanding your web presence, perhaps help us understand what the potential impact is to your cost structure and what the timing of that might be.
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
Sure. So there's -- so the web process, there's 2 aspects to it. There is the pre-sale or pre-install and posting and the installation period, and those are 2 discrete periods. The online pre-sale piece, I think is critical. As we think about cellphones or insurance or Uber or other consumer services where you can sign up, I think that web experience, whether it's mobile or on the desktop, I think is very, very important and just ease of making it simple and frictionless to be able to sign up for a service. That is a -- there's a number of great applications out there and I think we're going to have a phenomenal product, a totally frictionless online sales, which we're incredibly excited about. As you can imagine, the cost of acquisition to that channel becomes -- is very, very attractive. That's one piece of it. And the second piece of it, obviously, is post the sale once the customer is in that period between the sale and the install where we're going back to work in the background where nothing happens. And for me, I think the best proxy there is the Amazons, Chevrons, where you know exactly where your package is or the Domino's Pizza where, again, same thing, you see exactly who's having your pizza and what they're doing with that. I think giving customers that experience of just showing where they are in the process, I think is incredibly powerful. So in terms of cost, I think we'll have, one, a significant benefit in cost of acquisition; secondly, a significant benefit on time between selling an install and just getting customers more informed; and then we'll have some marginal costs on our increased throughput, but the Q1 is on cost of acquisition.
Brad W. Buss:
Yes, I think -- I don't think you're going to see any major step-up in OpEx for it. We have a team. We have the engineers in place. And I think you'll be pleasantly surprised where we end up relatively soon. And if you haven't had a chance to go through the process online, go do it. It's pretty amazing. And it's only going to get exponentially better, as Tanguy said. I mean, we expect to have a very large percent of our business done through the web over the next few years.
Philip Shen - Roth Capital Partners, LLC, Research Division:
Great. And what kind of mix could we actually see?
Lyndon R. Rive:
Web versus direct sales? Is that what you...
Philip Shen - Roth Capital Partners, LLC, Research Division:
Yes. What kind of mix of web and direct sales?
Lyndon R. Rive:
It's just too early for us to forecast that now.
Philip Shen - Roth Capital Partners, LLC, Research Division:
Okay. As a quick follow-up to a prior answer or question, you guys talked about your blend-in turnaround times of being 75 days. What are you guys expect going forward? How low could it go? I think in the past, you guys said the theoretical limit might be 45 days. What are you seeing now? And what's the timing of those reductions?
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
Yes, I think it depends by state. So in California, we're obviously significantly faster than at 75. I think we're below theoretical limits, which suggests that the theoretical limit is lower than that number. But the theoretical event is a 24 or 40 hour turnaround. So if a customer signs up, site survey that afternoon and the next morning, design up overnight. And then in some jurisdictions, whether it's either an online or over-the-counter permitting process, you can get the install in that afternoon or the next day. That's the theoretical -- like that's the true theoretical limit, which is very, very fast. For that to happen, obviously, there's a significant amount of work that the jurisdiction needs to do in allowing residential solar to be either an over-the-counter or online process, which we're big fans of and we're supporting that.
Lyndon R. Rive:
And California has actually made big movements there.
Tanguy Vincent Serra:
And we're incredibly grateful to California for the movement they've done, phenomenal, phenomenal work by our -- including our government [indiscernible] schemes. So that would be a theoretical limit. And candidly, that's where we would like to get to over a long period of time. I don't think we're going to get there any time soon, but over a long period of time. Right now, we're at 75. As I said, California is lower, and I expect, depending on the mix of the state, that number to hover around 60 to 75, hopefully go below that. But that's kind of the range which we're expecting to hover around.
Operator:
Our next question comes from the line of Josh Baribeau with Canaccord.
Josh Baribeau - Canaccord Genuity, Research Division:
Do you guys feel like you've had to walk away from some sales, given the fixed pricing in California?
Lyndon R. Rive:
No. The -- we are -- well, let me repeat that. So our fixed pricing does have a production minimum in it. In other words, if your house has really bad shading and it cannot accommodate the fixed pricing, we'll give the customer 2 choices
Josh Baribeau - Canaccord Genuity, Research Division:
Got you. And then maybe as sort of a follow-up to that. As more of this business becomes web based, are you at all concerned that there's going to be too much transparency and maybe even the potential for additional price competition between your peers?
Lyndon R. Rive:
Yes, let me walk you through a little history on the solar industry. When I got into the Solar business, everything was a very, very complicated sale. And then we looked at the sales process and said, clearly, we can deliver more value in the proposals, really explain to customers the investments they're making and the savings that they're getting. So then we transformed it from selling equipment to selling energy. Then it was, okay, can you sell this over the phone? And everybody thought, it's impossible to sell this over the phone. Now in hindsight, everybody sells over the phone. It's super easy to sell it over the phone. I think the next step is going to be selling it over the web. It'll take some time to crack that nut. But the #1 -- I want full transparency. I think the pricing is important. Today, all of our competitors know our pricing. We know all our competitors' pricing. The pricing is roughly the same. We have the lowest unit cost. So if we do need to react, we will. I don't think we will need to react next year. But I do think the transparency that's on the web will be good. We'll also be adding additional services. I mean, we're adding storage. We're going to have new software applications that we're going to announce that will differentiate us in the market and actually give a tool to our customers that no one else in the industry has. But that announcement will be coming out some time. Stay tuned on that one.
Operator:
Our next question is from the line of Edwin Mok with Needham & Company.
Y. Edwin Mok - Needham & Company, LLC, Research Division:
So first one, just to revisit the commercial, I think you mentioned on a call that some of the pricing may have came in low end or below the low end of historical range. Just want to know, is that a -- are you guys seeing pricing pressure in the marketplace, and I guess, that you booked more project at a lower price point that caused some pressure on your retained value for the quarter or incremental retained value for the quarter?
Aaron Chew:
Yes. Edwin, it's Aaron. I think you're just mentioning -- you're referring to the comment I made about incremental retained value. It's nothing market-driven. It's just -- keep in mind, commercial, very lumpy in a lot of small -- or I should say, a small amount of large projects. So it just really has to do with a couple of projects. It's nothing market related.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Yes, but just to add to that, we have had good growth of our commercial bookings on the East Coast, which is the cost per kilowatt hour is lower, but you have a big SREC that you need to include as well. And so that's the differentiation between the 2. So your cost per kilowatt hour, which is in retained value and SRECs on retained value. So just because on the volatility on that. So when you're booking commercial that has a lower kilowatt hour rate, it's kind of this is what Aaron has mentioned that historically -- the commercial bookings, the retained value on that is on the low end. That's because they're not including the SRECs. You've got to include the SRECs when you look at the total retained value, but SRECs is not in our retained value formula.
Y. Edwin Mok - Needham & Company, LLC, Research Division:
Actually, that explanation is very, very helpful to explain that. And then just on MyPower quickly, I know you guys don't want to give out the -- you want to wait a little bit before you give out how the retained value looks like for MyPower. Maybe help us a little bit on the cost side, right? Does MyPower help you in any form -- way, shape or form in terms of cost, maybe lower cost -- acquisition cost or something? And how does it affect your way of selling your solar product?
Lyndon R. Rive:
Yes, I mean, in terms of -- for now, we just kind of the same cost. So if we look at the slides over there that Brad went through, essentially, we're selling the system, depending on the state, between 400 -- $4.35 to $5.16. So our cost is $2.90. So you can just kind of all-in cost that and we're financing it to 4.5%. So I mean, actually, the most simplistic way to look at MyPower is it's costing us roughly $3, we sell at roughly $5, great, we're making $2, and we're financing that over -- 4.5% over 30 years.
Brad W. Buss:
Yes. And the other big impact is the cost of capital is vastly different since we don't have to deal with tax equity. I have a fun group beside the Rhode Island, managing tax equity, I don't have pressure on those administrative costs. And again, the other big question is going to be, does the homeowner actually take the dollars he receives from the credit and give it to us to pay down the rate? I mean, that's going to have a big impact on what retained value really is. So if you assume 100% due, you get one number. If you get some mix of it, it jumps dramatically. So I think we really have to see what that behavior is going to be before we see. In the end though, I think we're splitting hairs when you look at the growth and where we're going and whether it's MyPower or whatever other products on a gigawatt. It's not like it's billions of dollars. It's $100 million to $200 million, maybe, delta. It all becomes a rounding error a couple of years from now.
Operator:
There are no further questions at this time. I'd like to turn the call back over to management for any closing remarks.
Lyndon R. Rive:
Thank you very much for your time today. It's been an amazing quarter, launching 4 incredible products, the hard work the entire team has done, and look forward to speaking to you again next quarter. Have a good day.
Operator:
This concludes today's teleconference. Thank you for your participation. You may disconnect your lines at this time.
Executives:
Jeff Evanson – VP, IR Elon Musk – Chairman and CEO JB Straubel – Chief Technology Officer Deepak Ahuja – CFO
Analysts:
Adam Jonas – Morgan Stanley Andrea James – Doherty & Co. Ryan Brinkman – JPMorgan Colin Langan – UBS Brian Johnson – Barclays Rod Lache – Deutsche Bank Patrick Archambault – Goldman Sachs John Lavallo – Merrill Lynch Ben Kallo – Robert W. Baird Colin Rush – Northland Capital Markets
Operator:
Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Tesla Motors Second Quarter 2014 Financial Results. [Operator Instructions]. Now I would like to turn the call over to your host, Jeff Evanson. Please go ahead.
Jeff Evanson:
Thanks, Patrick [ph], and good afternoon everybody. Welcome to Tesla's first -- second quarter financial results Q&A webcast. I'm joined today by Elon Musk, Tesla Chairman and CEO; JB Straubel, Tesla Chief Technology Officer; and Deepak Ahuja, Tesla's Chief Financial Officer. We announced second quarter results today in our quarterly shareholder letter. The letter is available at this time as a link to our website at ir.teslamotors.com. There'll also be a replay of this webcast available later today at the same length. Please note that certain financial measures used in this call, such as revenue and income, are expressed on a non-GAAP basis and have been adjusted to exclude the effects of lease accounting used on Model S sales with a residual value guarantee, and charges related to stock-based compensation. Our GAAP results and reconciliations to non-GAAP measures can be found in the shareholder letter. During this call we may discuss our business outlook and make other forward-looking statements. Such statements are predictions based on management's expectations as of today. Actual events or results could differ materially due to the number of risks and uncertainties, including those mentioned in our most recent filings with the SEC. If you would like to ask a question, please press star 1 at this time, and Patrick [ph], why don't we turn it on over to the first question please?
Operator:
Our first question comes from Adam Jonas with Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.
Adam Jonas – Morgan Stanley:
Hey everybody. First I had a question on your forward-year guidance of 100,000 unit run rate by the end of 2015. Can you give us some sense of how much of that's coming from China? I mean we understand the demand for your products in China is off-the-chart strong, but we're a little concerned about your ability to deliver and service the volume while focusing 100% on the quality and building the brand off intensity. So maybe how many China stores or service centers would you need by this time next year that might be commensurate with that volume target.
Elon Musk:
Sure. Well, and this is sort of give you rough guesses on the 100K run rate within the next year, which I think is, you know, actually one of the most interesting things in our newsletter which you picked up on. We're expecting that to be sort of roughly split between X and S. So we're talking a little -- roughly 1,000 units a week of each. And when you look at the market demand for SUVs and sedans, that's about the split; it's almost exactly 50/50. In fact I think recently SUVs might have slightly edged ahead of sedans. So if we -- so it's sort of reasonable to expect that if one has -- just address the demand and then the servicing side of things -- it's reasonable to expect that if we see sort of a comfortable 1,000 unit demand on the sedan side, well, probably we should expect that similar number on the SUV side. My guess is we'll actually see slightly higher on the SUV side. I think the Model X is going to a phenomenal car. On the service front, we are spending a lot of money on service expansion. That's our primary, in the sort of sales and service arena, it's primarily service, like the overall majority is service really.
Adam Jonas – Morgan Stanley:
Good.
Elon Musk:
So it's not really -- I contend it's not demand generation but how do we make sure that that demand is well-served. So in terms of number of stores by the end of next year -- or number of service centers I should say by the end of next year, actually I don't have that off-hand. But it's probably on the order of 100 in China alone, I'm guessing, by the end of next year. We are -- and probably worldwide it's on the order of 300. This is -- I'm speaking off the cuff here --
Adam Jonas – Morgan Stanley:
Sure.
Elon Musk:
-- but probably north of 300 worldwide. And I'd say I've been very impressed with the Tesla China team and the quality of people that we're attracting in China. I mean I think the China team is smart and they work super-hard, so. And the pace of progress is just amazing. So I feel pretty comfortable about being able to do good service in China or great service actually. In fact, like the key metric we measure in service is the percentage of customers that are delighted, which is a 10 out of 10 score. That's both the primary thing we look at. And our goal is to get that worldwide to a majority of customers. And domestically, I believe we're actually -- but in the U.S. we're about 70% of customers who experienced service rated as perfect, or yeah, 10 out of 10 is actually. And another key metric we measure is the average time to service something. So our average is less than a day. So the car is -- so, in most cases we can actually pick up your car, fix anything that's wrong with it, and give it back to you, without you even knowing it was gone. So you just tell us like my car is at my office and this is where it is, and we'll pick up the car, fix it, and get it back to you before you finish work. Our goal with service is sort of invisible up, which is, is there even -- it's like elves [ph] service delivery [ph]. Like you don't even see it. It's like -- it happens so fast. And once done, you'll love it. And so I think there's like -- there's an interesting opportunity to revolutionize service as well. It's not just like, oh, let's do the same thing as before. I think it was a lot of lessons learned from a Formula One car approach. So, because we're not trying to serve customers for the most amount of money possible in a service, which is typical of the conventional auto industry, we want to get the job done super-fast, and then also make sure that you don't -- like we want to anticipate issues so you don't have to come back again. And so we actually bring the car and we kind of hit with a pit crew, like a Formula One pit crew. So instead of having one person per bay, the car gets slowly worked on over several days, it actually comes in and a team attacks it, and we're constantly improving the tools and the metrics to say, how can we get the car perfect as fast as possible. We actually bring in people from Formula One to help with the training on this. And I think there's a real opportunity to revolutionize the way service works.
Adam Jonas – Morgan Stanley:
That's great color, Elon. Can I just ask a follow-up? Outside of BMW, any other parties -- can you say any other parties that have expressed interest in your patent-sharing gesture? I'm curious to think why you think the -- why the industry is moving towards hydrogen in this -- or so much of the industry seems to be pushing hydrogen like crazy in the past few months. Is this a bullshit move to kind of CARB [ph] to rewrite the rules on EVs, or do you think they actually believe this stuff? And then just finally, can you confirm the rumor that Mr. Berns [ph] tried to kill you by running you over in an I8 [ph]? Thanks.
Elon Musk:
He does intend to kill me in the Simpsons, but not in an I8 [ph].
Adam Jonas – Morgan Stanley:
Maybe a vault [ph].
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Well, I don't, as you know, I'm not the biggest proponent of hydrogen. RV and JB might be [indiscernible] you know. But really if you take a theoretically optimal fuel cell car and compare that to a car in production, battery electric car, on key metrics of mass, volume complexity, cost, refilling infrastructure, it's just -- it's a loss. So it's the best case in our opinion, the best case fuel cell car, and obviously the fuel cell cars are far from best case, cannot be the current case electric car, well, why even try it? That just makes no sense. Success is not one of the possible outcomes. JB, anything you'd want to elaborate on that?
JB Straubel:
I think that really it's pretty clear, the only real benefits that get touted for fuel cell and hydrogen vehicles are potentially range and refill time, but both of those are not [indiscernible] benefits when you look at where battery technology is today and certainly where it's going in a few years. So I think people make a mistake of comparing today's technology with future potential technology instead of two technologies at the same point in time.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. I mean even if you take theoretical optimal, like theoretically perfect [indiscernible] I just don't think you [indiscernible].
Adam Jonas – Morgan Stanley:
But then, JB, like why are they doing -- why are they doing this? That's why I asked if it's BS. Is this just kind of a diversionary tactic or do you think they're just not on -- what's up?
Elon Musk:
We're quite confused about this.
JB Straubel:
Yeah. It does not make a lot of sense. I mean we didn't even touch on the infrastructure challenges that hydrogen brings, but building out that infrastructure is substantially more expensive than building out any electric vehicle infrastructure. And there's almost none of it today.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. Also another thing too, like hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. So you have to create the hydrogen, which is really inefficient. Because you'd either have to crack a hydrocarbon or electrolyzed water.
JB Straubel:
And if you want to do it renewably, the water electrolysis route is really the only --
Elon Musk:
Yeah, which is super inefficient. Yeah. And then hydrogen has very low density, so if you're going to pick it chemical energy storage mechanism, the hydrogen is a terrible choice. Like at least, you know, methane, CH4, lock up the hydrogen with one carbon atom or something. Anyway --
Adam Jonas – Morgan Stanley:
Maybe that answers the question.
JB Straubel:
It doesn't make a lot of sense.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Jeff Evanson:
All right. Thanks a lot, Adam. We should get to the next caller please.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Andrea James with Doherty & Company. Your line is open.
Andrea James – Doherty & Co.:
Thanks for taking my questions. First one is I guess about quality control. Can you talk about the improvements you've made in quality control and where you think it needs to go? Maybe with a nod toward what's going on with the drive train systems?
Elon Musk:
Sure. We definitely had some quality issues in the beginning for the [indiscernible] number of cars, because we're just basically figuring out how to make the Model S. And I think we've addressed almost all of those CARB [ph] production cars, I mean not all, but the vast majority have been addressed in cars that are being produced today. And we're also getting better at diagnosing what's wrong, because in some cases we, particularly with respect to the drive unit, we think that something is wrong with the drive unit but it's actually something wrong with another part of the car. And then we'd replace the drive unit and that wouldn't solve the problem because the drive unit was not the problem. And we had one particular case where there was vibration, and it was due to -- it was due to the -- a cable detaching itself and touching the drive unit assembly and causing vibration to be transmitted to the body of the car. And it was somewhat pernicious because if the cable moved a little bit and so that it didn't provide a conductive path, then you wouldn't -- the vibration would go away. If you replace the drive unit, you temporarily tuck the cable back and think the problem was solved and it was -- but then the cable would vibrate itself down and transmit the energy. So I mean that, you know, the cable thing takes us like -- it's nothing to fix it. It's like, virtually, it's like a $3 cable tied to solve it. So there's a bunch of things like that which are just [indiscernible] diagnosis of the problems that we've obviously addressed. There are a few items that will need a fair number of drive pans [ph] will need to be serviced. It's actually related -- one particularly is related to the differential, and we need to assume [ph] the differential. It doesn't require drive unit replacement, it just requires a technician to insert a Shim [ph]. We're going to have to do that on a fair number of cars. But that's like a $0.50 Shim [ph]. So it's really -- I wouldn't assume that there's going to be some vast number of drive pans [ph] that will need to replaced, but there's several service buttons [ph] that we'll be instituting, many of which we've already have to address the issue. And every week I have a product excellence meeting, which is to -- which is a cross-functional group, so we've got engineering, service and production, and we go about all the issues that the customer is reporting with the car, and, you know, the action items that we addressed to get car ultimately to -- photonic ideal of a perfect car, that's what we're aiming for. Because although we -- I think we've got great service, but that service is no service. That's really what we want, is a car that never needs to be serviced. And I think we're getting there quite rapidly.
Andrea James – Doherty & Co.:
Would you say you're satisfied more so with the quality control function and team you have in place?
Elon Musk:
I think at this point we've got an excellent quality control team. And we weren't there in the beginning but I'm confident that we're there now. I mean our aspiration is sort of order magnitude better quality than any other car. And I -- we'll keep at it unrelentingly until we get there.
Andrea James – Doherty & Co.:
And then just to flip over to the Giga Factory, it says in the shareholder letter you've broken ground in Nevada, and I guess it's out there in the blogosphere that construction paused. So I guess my question is, you know, why slow it down? And do you have a drop-dead date for when you really need to make sure you're really up and going?
Elon Musk:
Yeah. We've essentially completed the -- creating the pad, the construction pad for the Giga Factory [ph] in Nevada. So in terms of creating a flat pad and getting the rocky foundation, that is substantially complete. There's still a little bit of work ongoing. We're going to be doing something similar in one or two other states, which is something I previously said we'd do, because I think it makes sense to have multiple things going in parallel. Before we actually go to the next stage of pouring a lot of concrete though, we want to make sure we have things sorted out at the sort of state level, that the incentives are there that makes sense, and [indiscernible] the state and Tesla. But I do want to emphasize that we're not -- Tesla is not going to ink up for a deal that is unfair to the state or unfair to Tesla. We want to make sure it's compelling for all parties. And, you know, so I think on the Nevada side, at this point the ball is on the court of the governor and the state legislature.
Andrea James – Doherty & Co.:
Is Panasonic having any input into the site selection process?
Elon Musk:
We're keeping them closely informed, and so that -- where all the details. And they haven't -- they haven't volunteered advice necessarily. We'd certainly listen to their advice if they provided it. But they seem to be in accordance with our theory on location.
JB Straubel:
Yeah. And Tesla is managing all of the utilities and infrastructure at the Giga Factory [ph] sites. So in that regard, you know, Tesla is basically aggregating the inputs and requirements from not just Panasonic but other potential partners as well. So it's primarily Tesla's role to be evaluating those sites.
Andrea James – Doherty & Co.:
Appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Ryan Brinkman with JPMorgan. Your line is open.
Ryan Brinkman – JPMorgan:
Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. Earlier in the year you had discussed the potential I think $4 billion to $5 billion investment in the Giga Factory through 2020. Is that still the number that you're working with? And I think too you had planned for the CapEx to be shared by the Giga Factory partners. In your press release this morning you mentioned that Panasonic will provide equipment, you the buildings, utilities, et cetera. Do you think you're on track to sign suppliers on to provide $2 billion to $3 billion of investment? And over what rough timeframe might we expect you to announce those partners and their respective investment commitments?
Elon Musk:
Sure. Yes, that $4 billion to $5 billion number is we think probably accurate. I mean particularly over through 2020, I think it'll be closer to $4 billion, maybe slightly less than that, before we get to initial high-volume production. But then as we do continued investments to improve output and improve the technology of the pack, it's probably closer to the $5 billion over the 2020 timeframe, but probably less than $4 billion to get up to serious production. And then of that number, we see Tesla probably providing 40% to 50% of the total, Panasonic probably about 30% to 40%, the states maybe 10%, and other industrial partners about 10%, maybe 15% to 20%, depending on how vertical [ph] we go with the factory. And then with having signed the contract with Panasonic, I mean I think -- well, I was never really -- something I was in doubt from my standpoint, but I think some of these people take things [indiscernible] which are -- I mean there are -- they're going to be fairly conservative in their words, but I think the actions are really what matter. And Panasonic has always taken the actions of an excellent partner. So we feel confident that there will be the amount of money needed to reach the 35 gigawatt-hour level at the cell level and 50 gigawatt-hour at the module impact [ph] level. The module impact [ph] stuff is all Tesla internal. And then we're expecting precursor -- suppliers have the precursor materials from the [indiscernible] separator, maybe the electrolyte, to be also present in the factory.
Ryan Brinkman – JPMorgan:
Right, that's extremely helpful and reassuring too. Switching gears, last question, is there anything you can say at all on the trend to Model X orders? I know that you don't disclose backlog, but perhaps you could speak qualitatively to it, maybe how it compares to when you first started taking Model S orders or how many are maybe returning customers, is there any difference geographically, and who is preferring an SUV versus sedan, where the orders coming from, et cetera?
Elon Musk:
Sure. I guess what's important to appreciate for the X, that there -- let's just put the orders in context. There are no cars available for a test drive. There is no information about the cars in our stores because we're only selling the S. In fact, if somebody comes in who wants to buy the X, we try to convince them to buy the S. So we anti-sell it. And we don't really provide all that much information or details about the car or provide [indiscernible] on when you can get it. Despite all that, there's huge demand from around the world for the X. Now I think that actually people are right, even though they don't have enough -- they don't really have enough information to know they're right, but they are.
Ryan Brinkman – JPMorgan:
Great. Thank you.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. It's -- our issue is not -- we will not have a demand issue. Yeah.
Ryan Brinkman – JPMorgan:
Thanks.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Colin Langan with UBS. Your line is open.
Colin Langan – UBS:
Great. Thanks for taking my question. Just on the 100,000 exit rate in 2025, is that -- I guess that implies that the battery constraints will be limited, and at what point should we think of sort of that battery constraint limiting you until the Giga Factory comes online?
Elon Musk:
Sure. You can sort of see -- I mean we see a path to potentially, you know, 150,000 cars a year. Maybe if you really push it, 200,000 cars a year, without the Giga Factory. So the Giga Factory is needed for that sort of -- that incremental 300,000 cars. But we can probably -- I would guess that probably it could be pushed to a couple of 100,000 cars a year with the existing -- without the Giga Factory. That's probably a good guess. So, yeah, we'll sort of see where that leads.
Colin Langan – UBS:
And on the Giga Factory, I mean is the chemistry going to be the same battery chemistry that you're currently using or is that part of the discussions that are going on with Panasonic?
Elon Musk:
There are improvements to the chemistry, as well as improvements to the [indiscernible]. So we would expect to see an energy density improvement, and of course a significant cost improvement. JB, do you want to [indiscernible]?
JB Straubel:
Yeah, that's, you know, the cathode and anode materials themselves are next generation, so we're -- I mean we're seeing improvements in the maybe 10% to 15% range on the chemistry itself.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, in terms of energy density.
JB Straubel:
Energy density. And then, you know, we're also customizing the cell shape and size to further improve the cost efficiency of the cell, and our packaging efficiency.
Elon Musk:
Right. We've done a lot of modeling trying to figure out what's the optimal cell size. And it's really not much -- it's not a lot different from where we are right now, but we're sort of in the roughly 10% more diameter, maybe 10% more height. But then the cubic function effectively ends up being, just from a geometry standpoint, probably a third more energy for the cell, if you -- maybe 30%-ish. And then the actual energy density per unit mass increases, so.
JB Straubel:
Yeah. Yeah, fundamentally the chemistry of what's inside is what really defines the cost position now. It's often debated what shape and size, but at this point we're developing basically what we feel is the optimum shape and size for the best cost efficiency for an automotive cell.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Colin Langan – UBS:
The chemical formula will be the same, it's just shaped differently or?
Elon Musk:
No, no.
JB Straubel:
No.
Colin Langan – UBS:
It's a different formula.
Elon Musk:
Yeah, yeah.
Colin Langan – UBS:
Okay. And just one last question. It sounds like the Giga Factory might be very vertically integrated. How do you think about that for the assembly of the model -- a model three [ph]? Do you need to be highly vertically integrated or do you think you'll probably outsource more of that to reduce the costs of that model?
Elon Musk:
I don't think outsourcing decreases the cost. That tends to increase the cost in our experience. It's just like -- the reason we don't -- the reason we outsource stuff is just because we had too many fish to fry, otherwise. But it's almost always the case that -- when we've in-sourced something, it got cheaper. Yeah. I mean it's just -- like if the -- the thing that would make us really efficient -- or for any given technology level, is to say, how far did that molecule move? And if the molecule is taking several round trips around the world, that's expensive. If it's just moving from one station to the next, then that's obviously lower cost. And so the vertical integration just means that the molecule doesn't move as much and it's not being put in a box and then put in a truck and then on a boat, and then, you know, going through customs and stuff like that. So I mean I think that's generally true that a vertical integration and doing things at large scale results in cost reduction. I feel very confident with the 30% cost reduction per unit of energy. We're obviously going to target something higher than that.
Colin Langan – UBS:
Okay. All right, thank you very much.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Brian Johnson with Barclays. Your line is open.
Brian Johnson – Barclays:
Yes, thank you. Could you maybe help us understand how you think about the gap or how we ought to think about the gaps between production and deliveries? It looks like typically production's been running 900 to 1,200 units in recent quarters ahead of deliveries. Your 4Q guide would actually imply delivery to roughly equal or actually a little bit higher than production. So, can you help us kind of think through that?
Elon Musk:
Production in Q4 significantly exceeds deliveries. I mean the time from when a car is produced to when it is delivered, it depends on the mix of domestic versus international, because when you -- when cars are sent to Europe or China, they've got -- obviously get on a boat and they got to get through customs, and it's sort of a more lengthy process. So, average time for delivery of a car in North America is about two weeks-ish, thereabout. And then for -- but for international deliveries, you've got to add another three to four weeks on top of that. We try to tighten that down a little bit, but then if you blend the two, then maybe it's an average delivery time four or five weeks. So, you know, for cars made in October, they would all be delivered in Q4.
Brian Johnson – Barclays:
Go ahead.
Unverified Company Representative:
Yeah. The increase of our overall production, there are two factors that drive that gap. One is the ramp of production increase, the other one is the mix of international market.
Elon Musk:
Right.
Unverified Company Representative:
And even if the mix is the same but we're increasing production, it creates a bigger gap each quarter. And then clearly as we are shipping more to right-hand drive markets and to China, our international mix is increasing too. So each quarter is a slightly different story, but certainly there will be a gap as we continue.
Brian Johnson – Barclays:
Okay. So the implication of that though is your production in 4Q would be not slightly higher than 1,000 a week, that's more than slightly higher than 1,000 a week.
Unverified Company Representative:
Yeah, it'll be sufficiently higher that we still deliver to our expectations of slightly over 35,000 cars this year.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. At 1,000 cars a week, I mean 1,000 cars a week steady state implies a 50,000 roughly rate number, in steady state. So it doesn't really need to be much -- all that much beyond 1,000 to achieve our goal, on average, for the Q4.
Brian Johnson – Barclays:
Okay. And if you think about the difference between the roughly 500 to 600 deliveries per week this quarter and the 1,000 a week rate you're talking about, what, you know, how would you waterfall the step-up in terms of the contribution of the three key geographies, Europe, China, obviously Hong Kong is part of that, and then North America?
Elon Musk:
I mean long term I'd probably -- I'd say it's -- well, there's not just China and Asia of course. But I think long term we're probably looking at, this is just a guess, but I mean maybe 40% Asia, 40% North America, 20% Europe, as a rough guess. And Asia is more than China for sure. We have people [indiscernible] in Japan and we, like go to Korea, Hong Kong. Hong Kong being sort of China, part of China of course, special administrative zone. And Australia and New Zealand and that kind of thing. So it's probably 40% Asia Pacific region. And there we tend to do very well in our home markets in North America, has 40% there. And then Europe -- the demand is not just generally strong in Europe. But it's fair to say in Europe can have 25% to 30% of the mix. Those are just a rough guess.
Brian Johnson – Barclays:
Our next question comes from Rod Lache with Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.
Rod Lache – Deutsche Bank:
Hi everybody. You brought up a few times the future case electric car and you also mentioned that you're comfortable even in the near term with a 30% reduction in costs for batteries per pax, most of which you said is logistics. I wanted to ask you two things on that. One is, is that additional 10% to 15% that you talked about related to anode and cathode chemistry, is that incremental to the 30%? And if you took a step back and thought about the trajectory for this in the next 10 years rather than in the next three years, what would you sort of -- what do you see on the horizon? Is there kind of a case for $100 per kilowatt-hour pack in 10 years?
Elon Musk:
I'd be disappointed if it took us 10 years to get to $100 a kilowatt-hour pack.
Rod Lache – Deutsche Bank:
So basically you're saying that, you know, within the next -- within that timeframe you would expect electric vehicles to reach cost parity and maybe even improve upon the cost of an internal combustion vehicle?
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
Rod Lache – Deutsche Bank:
Uh-huh. That's interesting. Now another -- that's a pretty big statement.
Elon Musk:
Seems pretty obvious to me. In your question you had [indiscernible] should be corrected, like the -- so the 30% savings is not just due to logistics. Logistics is a big factor. We are --
JB Straubel:
It's not even the biggest though.
Elon Musk:
Logistics [indiscernible] the fact that it's just go to one station to the next instead of going from multiple entities to multiple entities. But really when you get to the kinds of scale that we're talking about, you really get to design customer equipment that's much better at processing each step. And you really get to design the machine that makes the machine, not just do so with off-the-shelf equipment. So it took -- everything about it is going to get a whole lot better. That's why we think the 30% number when the Giga Factory is at full production is a conservative number. Yeah. And then, yeah. So.
Rod Lache – Deutsche Bank:
To get to those kind of targets beyond the 30%, is there some kind of breakthrough, you know, anode chemistries or things that you're looking at that you think are highly probable that are needed, or, you know, is it just a bunch of incremental steps that you see kind of playing out over the next years?
JB Straubel:
Well, we're tracking things that have a whole range of different horizons for implementation. But to get to -- to realize the Giga Factory and those cost targets, we don't need some fundamental breakthrough in chemistry and material science. That -- those things are pretty well-understood in front of us. In the long term, there are a lot of very interesting, you know, long term being the 10 years perhaps you mentioned, or more, there's many very interesting things in the horizon with reducing probabilities as you go further up.
Elon Musk:
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. It's -- yeah. It's heading to a place of no contest with respect to gas I mean. But I mean we're trying to make it go there as fast as possible because time is important here. You know, the sooner this can be done, the sooner we can reduce carbon output and reduce the probability of a catastrophe. So, yeah. And the absence of Giga Factory, this progress will be much slower.
Rod Lache – Deutsche Bank:
Just wanted to ask a quick kind of near-term question. You know, now that it sounds like you're buttoning down a lot of things with regard to the Giga Factory and expansion of service centers and things like this. Can you share any kind of high-level thoughts on how we should be expecting the trajectory of your CapEx, R&D and SG&A as we look beyond this year, just maybe some kind of broad ranges into next year?
Deepak Ahuja:
Rod, we can share more details towards the end of the year as we look further out. But clearly given the huge ramp-up in our deliveries and [indiscernible] revenue, we should see a significant improvement in our operating expenses as a percentage of revenue.
Elon Musk:
Right.
Deepak Ahuja:
As we go forward. And then we can provide a little bit more granular guidance as go further up.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. In the past [indiscernible] we've shown all of our cards, so people have kind of gotten used to us showing all of our cards. We're not currently showing all our cards.
Rod Lache – Deutsche Bank:
Okay. All right. Well, thank you.
Operator:
Our next question comes from Patrick Archambault with Goldman Sachs. Your line is open.
Patrick Archambault – Goldman Sachs:
Hi. Thank you very much. Just a question on the cadence of sales. With the, you know, the guide for deliveries of 78 for next quarter, it does appear that you are going to be starving some demand there certainly, which is going to clearly get allocated into the following quarter once the changeover is done. But I guess how do you think about just the risks of kind of associated with hitting that target? I guess if the math is right, I think you go from 78 to 13,000. It just seems like an awful big ramp, maybe not in absolute units but certainly kind of you think about it almost doubling. So how should we think about that and managing that?
Elon Musk:
Sure. We try to -- because I agree, it does seem like sort of a crazy leap. But we try to address that by pointing out that there's two weeks missing in Q3 because of the factory retooling. And those two weeks at fairly high production. So you can add almost 2,000 units to what Q3 really would be if we didn't have that two-week interruption. So it would actually be, you know, more like 9,500 units or something like that in terms of Q3 deliveries. And then it's like, oh, okay, it's much more of -- you can see how we get from sort of 7,500 to 9,500 to 12,000, 13,000, whatever the case may be. That seems -- the progression is much more sensible in that context [indiscernible].
Patrick Archambault – Goldman Sachs:
Yeah, it certainly helps us understand in terms of kind of the underlying cadence of purchases, if you will. I mean I suppose, even though we're talking about deliveries, but I guess the one question I would have is, how about in terms of the number of service centers and just the logistics of actually being able to physically deliver these cars? Is that a constraint or a risk in any way, I suppose?
Elon Musk:
No. We actually won't be delivering at the 1,000 or 1,000 plus per week rate at the end of Q3.
Patrick Archambault – Goldman Sachs:
Okay, understood. And then I guess another related question, if you have any color on this, is if you just kind of go through what you've laid out there and hold the regional delivery rates kind of constant with where they came in in Q2, I mean most people sort of have those through various sources, it does imply again that clearly you're starving one or more regions in Q3 in terms of demand that they'd want but can't get. But for Asia, it implies something like maybe 5,000 to 6,000 units of deliveries, at least on our preliminary math. And I guess that's a similar number that you did initially in the U.S. when you launched. And is that something that you've got a backlog for already? I'm imagining the answer is yes, but was just kind of curious.
Elon Musk:
Demand will not be a problem. Yeah. An interesting little item, like how many stores are we building? Well, we're building hardly any. We're building lots of service centers. We can drive demand up at will. But if drive it up too much, then people would get upset with us because they waited too long for their car. And the only guy in China gets upset that when he got his car, he bashed it, which seems [indiscernible] but he said the reason for bashing the car was that we took too long to deliver to him. I'm like, okay. But -- and when I was visiting in China, the only unhappiness I saw was that, because customers were upset about waiting too long for their car. So it's like, boy, we better not stoke demand in that situation. And sales per square foot on our stores, I believe Apple's normally the leader on sales per square foot, our sales per square foot are double that of Apple's.
Patrick Archambault – Goldman Sachs:
That's a -- thank you. That's helpful perspective. If I could just ask one more, you know, just building on Rod's question. As you think about OpEx, I know you're not giving guidance for next year, Deepak, but clearly what you've laid out for your expansion of service and distribution, obviously that's an expense that we expect to increase and necessarily stead away [ph]. You know, how do we think about just R&D in the shorter term? I mean obviously it's fairly elevated. I think the math implies more than 400 million this year, if I'm doing it right. Is that something that takes a little bit of a breather in terms of the growth rate, or, you know, just given the significant product ramp you've got, it's something we should look to continue to increase --
Deepak Ahuja:
Yeah. We are doing a lot of product related actions at this point, and that is creating an artificial bump. And especially the Model X and other activities that are going on. That will sort of slow down. But then we want to work on so many exciting things. I don’t want to just suggest that R&D will slow down. I think if there is one place we want to spend money, it's there, and do more exciting stuff. So I think we'll just provide information as appropriate further on.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. I mean another thing, our CapEx and R&D numbers are better than they appear because there are things you don't know about.
Patrick Archambault – Goldman Sachs:
Well, okay. A lot of interesting stuff to look ahead to. Thanks for the color guys.
Deepak Ahuja:
You're welcome, Patrick.
Operator:
Our next question comes from John Lavallo with Merrill Lynch. Your line is open.
John Lavallo – Merrill Lynch:
Hey guys. Thanks a lot for taking my call here. First question is, I mean there's clearly a lot of excitement in anticipation about China. It just seems that the Chinese government is doing just about everything in their power to kind of favor the domestic OEs, I mean whether it's the 10% purchase tax avoidance that won't apply to imports, the charging station standards that at this point don't seem to be compatible with Tesla's technology. And even I mean they're allowing -- or thinking of allowing non-OEs to have licenses to produce autos, including the owner of [Fisk Renee 123] who might be in that race. So I guess the question is, I mean, how do you see this kind of environment developing? I mean do you think there's going to be just increasing pressure from the Chinese government to kind of favor the domestic guys?
Elon Musk:
Actually I've been pretty impressed with the Chinese government at all levels, the city level and the national level. They're actually -- I mean they have done some political [ph] actions maybe quite a bit in the past, but I don't think that's going to be the path going forward for them. And actually for the sales tax exemption, it does actually apply to non-Chinese cars. So I think you may be missing a point [ph] there. There are -- we have to adhere to Chinese charging standards, but we are going to do so. But the challenge was that those standards weren't defined until about a month ago. So it's a little tricky to adhere to something that is not yet definitively been announced. Now that it has, we're committed to meet those standards, and we expect to fit within the sales tax exemption. Yeah.
JB Straubel:
It's actually a very -- relatively simple matter to meet the Chinese standards. They're very familiar and quite close to the European standard.
Elon Musk:
Right. Yeah, exactly. And we're ready to meet the European standard. So as we're trying to observe the U.S. standard, the European standards, and then we'll be observing the China standard which is, as JB said, very similar to Europe.
John Lavallo – Merrill Lynch:
Okay, that's very helpful. Sorry, go ahead.
Deepak Ahuja:
Yeah. In Shanghai, we got the exemption plate fees, which is on an imported EV, so it's not just for local EVs that those policies are being applied. And we are having discussions in other cities where that's a possibility too. So I think so far it's been overall a positive reception that we have received, so it's been good.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. They're genuinely committed to electric cars. And it's not just about favoring local manufacturers.
John Lavallo – Merrill Lynch:
Okay, that's helpful. I guess the second question, recently Edmunds put out a report on I guess their first year with Model S, and obviously everyone has their own opinion on this. But there's been a lot of talk about quality in the call, and what Edmunds was saying, and you may have read it, is that there were something like 28 to 30 service campaigns that were not part of the regular scheduled maintenance, and because of that they couldn't recommend the car. So I mean I'm just curious how you guys might respond to that.
Elon Musk:
Well, there's definitely some genuine issues we have with the car, but they had one of our early production units, and in fact most of the problems that they have encountered there are not present in current cars. We also -- I think this may be ending up being counterproductive, but the service team was ultra proactive with the Edmunds car. So they would -- they were doing their best to make Edmunds happy, and I think unfortunately that resulted in them changing things up, just on the off-chance something might go wrong. So that drive unit issue that I mentioned earlier were, the drive units [indiscernible] replaced even though it wasn't a drive unit problem, that happened with them twice. So, unfortunate sort of case, but I don't think it's broadly correct. And it's definitely correct of -- for cars that are made in like the past year.
JB Straubel:
Yeah. If I might add one thing on the drive unit replacements as well, I think it's important to note that the drive unit is a very complicated sort of assembly of different components, and the pieces that have needed service and failed internal to the drive unit are relatively not very expensive. And they're being replaced in order for expedience, so they get the car back on the road for the customer in the minimum time.
Elon Musk:
Yeah.
JB Straubel:
But going forward, we're looking at ways to repair them and give people back their same drive unit very, very quickly, in about the same amount of time. If you had to replace your internal combustion engine every time something small went wrong --
Elon Musk:
-- the gasket or something --
JB Straubel:
[Indiscernible]
Elon Musk:
It's literally like the sort of small Shim [ph] that I was mentioning is equivalent to replacing a minor gasket on an internal combustion engine.
JB Straubel:
Right.
Elon Musk:
And normally you wouldn't get someone a new engine for that. But our optimization was customer happiness. And so we knew exactly what to do. We just wanted to give people back their car right away.
JB Straubel:
Yup.
John Lavallo – Merrill Lynch:
Yeah. Thanks a lot guys.
Deepak Ahuja:
Just to add from a cost perspective, since these are not significant, the overall impact on our warranty reserves has not been significant.
Elon Musk:
Right. And we're going to be at it hard core until that car is 10x better than any other car on the road.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Ben Kallo with Robert W. Baird. Your line is open.
Ben Kallo – Robert W. Baird:
Hey. Thanks for taking my question. As we look ahead to next year, in the 100,000 unit by the end of next year, is the biggest production increase happening right now over these two weeks, or is there some other step that has to take place next year to get you to that level?
Elon Musk:
Well, there is a big step that's expected to occur in Q1 next year which is the bring up of the body line, the SX body line. So we've -- what we did the past two weeks is the assembly line where basically the bits get put together. But then the body line is where the body itself is welded together, welded and bonded together. So it's like the core skeleton of the car is created. And so we anticipate probably -- well, I'm not sure if -- it may only that we -- actually -- sorry, I take it back. We're going to bring the body line up in parallel with the current line. So unlike this case with the assembly, we had to -- we didn't have too complete assembly lines, where we had to stop and retool. In the case of new SX body line, which is a line that is designed to be capable of 2,500 units a week, maybe more than that, conservatively at 2,500 units a week, at a lower cost point, we should be able to do that in parallel.
Ben Kallo – Robert W. Baird:
Got it. And --
Elon Musk:
And I should say that -- another thing that's going to be -- see a big upgrade, really big upgrade, is the paint shops. There are few cases where advanced CapEx spending makes sense, even though it's going to pay off in sort of two to three years, but it's just such a big improvement that you kind of want to do it even at a high discount rate. So our paint shop is being upgraded. It's going to be the most advanced automotive paint shop in the world.
Ben Kallo – Robert W. Baird:
Got it.
Elon Musk:
But it's expensive to do that.
Ben Kallo – Robert W. Baird:
And then we like watching Halle Berry every week, but can you give us any details on when we can see the Model X? And then there's slightly different language about the alpha and beta that I think is new. So could you just tell us the difference between what the alpha model and the beta model?
Elon Musk:
Yes. The X that was produced, the sort of the show [ph] car or advanced prototype, is sort of a pre-alpha. The alpha itself is, you know, the production, it's basically production design. We're going to move very quickly from alpha to beta. So in this case, like for the Model S, the alpha was a lot more primitive than X will be, because of course we didn't -- for the X we've got all [indiscernible] and powertrain stuff that's been done for the S that we can build upon. In the S case, we didn't have that. So it's really a very advanced alpha car that we're producing through the X. And we'll move to beta within three months. So it's a real fast alpha to beta. And you can expect to see production cost, not in customer hands but kind of on the road, doing test and validation in Q1 next year. We'll have quite a few of those.
Ben Kallo – Robert W. Baird:
Great. Thanks so much.
Operator:
Our next question comes --
Elon Musk:
And something I do want to emphasize with the X, is because we're moving very quickly into a high production mode, as opposed -- with S, the S had a -- Model S had a long production slope, starting off very slowly and then taking kind of six months to reach the 400 unit per week level. In the case of the X, I mean we're going to try to move to sort of several hundred units a week within three months of production. So it's like half -- maybe less than half the length. Yeah. But because of that, we really wanted to [indiscernible] validation on the car, test the heck out of it before going into volume production.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from Colin Rush from Northland Capital Markets. Your line is open.
Colin Rush – Northland Capital Markets:
Thanks so much guys. I just wanted to make sure I heard these numbers right. So we're going from 1,000 to 2,000 cars a week in 2015. So if I take the midrange of that, about 1,500 cars a week or production levels of 78,000 cars per year. And if I heard correct on the delivery timeframes, you're about two weeks in North America and something like five to six weeks overseas which you're trying to shorten up, so we'd be thinking about works in progress of roughly 10%. So are those numbers right in terms of how I'm thinking about kind of targets for you guys for next year?
Elon Musk:
It's difficult for us to predict the slope of next year, like -- so what is the slope, you know, what does the exact curve of the production rise look like next year. We feel confident of X ending next year at 2,000 units a week of production and demand, absent like some macroeconomic shock. But it's hard to say exactly what the area under the curve looks like. But it's, you know, yeah, certainly more than 60,000 I would think. But, yeah.
Colin Rush – Northland Capital Markets:
Okay. That's perfect. And then can you talk about the weight reduction efforts that you've got going on right now with the vehicles, and how should we think about the cadence of pulling weight out of the vehicle and potential translation of that into extended range?
Elon Musk:
Well, the puzzle [ph] on weight versus range is not super strong. There is an improvement but it's not a huge improvement. The Model S has gotten steadily lighter over time. It's really like, you know, it's quarter a pound here, half pound there, but the Model S in production today is at least a few hundred pounds less than that in the start of production. And we'll continue to see improvements over time. So to get to a step change on -- I mean, there are so many pieces in the car, like you have the battery pack, the motor -- the transmission, or the gear box, the tires and wheels, the seats. I think if you've got like a big improvement any one of those items, maybe with the exception of the battery pack, it only changes the weight of the car by like 1%, 2% or something. These are all good things, but there's not like one big block [indiscernible] sitting in the car that [indiscernible] more primitive. It requires whittling away at a whole bunch of things.
JB Straubel:
And the range impact is, you know, weight is one fraction of impact on range, so, even smaller than the direct percentage of weight reduction.
Elon Musk:
Yeah. And it is getting slightly better over time. It's hard for people to sort of perceive it from one month to the next, but if you look at it over the course of a year, you'd notice.
Colin Rush – Northland Capital Markets:
Great. Thank you.
Operator:
Your next question comes from Andrea James with Doherty & Company. Your line is open.
Jeff Evanson:
And Patrick [ph], I should have mentioned, we probably need to cut the call off after this question. So we'll have this be the last question please. Go ahead, Andrea. Sorry.
Operator:
Please check your mute button. Andrea James, your line is open.
Elon Musk:
We can take [ph] a different question I guess.
Jeff Evanson:
I guess she's no longer in queue. So with that, I guess we'll call it a day. And thank you everyone for joining the call. And we look forward to talking with you for our third quarter earnings release. Goodbye.
Elon Musk:
Bye.
Operator:
Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for participating in today's program. This concludes the program. You may all disconnect.
Executives:
Aaron Chew - Vice President, Investor Relations Lyndon Rive - Chief Executive Officer Bob Kelly - Chief Financial Officer Tanguy Serra - Chief Operating Officer
Analysts:
Philip Shen - Roth Capital Patrick Jobin - Credit Suisse Brian Lee - Goldman Sachs Edwin Mok - Needham & Company Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank Pavel Molchanov - Raymond James Andrew Hughes - Bank of America/Merrill Lynch Mark Strouse - JPMorgan Chase
Operator:
Greetings, ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the SolarCity’s First Quarter 2014 Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. A question-and-answer session will follow the formal presentation. (Operator Instructions) As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Mr. Aaron Chew, Vice President of Investor Relations. Please go ahead sir.
Aaron Chew - Vice President, Investor Relations:
Good afternoon. Thank you, operator and welcome everyone to SolarCity’s first quarter 2014 earnings conference call. Leading the presentation on today’s call will be Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Lyndon Rive; Chief Financial Officer, Bob Kelly, and for the first time, on one of our calls, be introducing our new Chief Operating Officer, Tanguy Serra as well. Do note, our other Co-Founder, Peter Rive will also be in the room for any questions if need be. As a reminder, today’s discussion will contain forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties, including forecasts regarding SolarCity’s 2014 and 2015 financial and operating results and forecasts. Words such as believe, may, estimates, continue, anticipate, intend, expect predict, potential and similar expressions as they relate to SolarCity it’s business and its management are intended to identify forward-looking statements. Forward-looking statements should not be considered a guarantee of future performance or results and will not necessarily be accurate indications of the times at or by which such performance or results will be achieved, if at all. Forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual performance or results to differ materially from those expressed in or suggested by the forward-looking statements, including risks identified in SolarCity’s earnings press release issued today as well as in the slides accompanying this presentation, as well as additional risks and uncertainties identified in the section entitled Risk Factors in our quarterly report on Form 10-Q, which has just been filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. We do not undertake any obligation to publicly update or revise any forward-looking statement, whether as a result of new information, future developments, or otherwise. In addition, during the course of this call, we will use a number of specially defined terms relating to our business metrics and financial results. We refer to these definitions included in the slides accompanying this presentation, which are available on our Investor Relations website at investors.solarcity.com. And with that long introduction behind us, I would like to introduce SolarCity’s Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Lyndon Rive.
Lyndon Rive - Chief Executive Officer:
Thanks, Aaron. So, we are off to a great start in 2014. We’ve invested into the sales team and are starting to see the results. Here are some highlights for Q1. We booked 136 megawatts, well above our 100 megawatt forecast. Our installs came in at the high end of the guidance. We have expanded into Nevada. Nevada, the primary focus is going to be Las Vegas. This is a great solar region, because of the amount of sun that Las Vegas gets. We entered into our second securitization and Bob will cover this in more detail. Moving to Slide 5, our contracted cash flow is now $2.5 billion. The amazing part is we added $500 million in one quarter. These are starting to become big numbers. We also note 100,000 energy contracts when we added over 17,000 customer contracts this quarter. We are well on our way for 1 million customers. Moving on to Slide 6, I am pleased to say we are going to increase our guidance for 2014. The new guidance is 500 to 550 megawatts. We are comfortable with this increase based in the bookings momentum we have seen earlier in the year. Now, we are not going to slowdown, we are going to continue to invest in sales and marketing. Based on these investments, we are now forecasting 2015. The forecast for 2015 is going to be 900 megawatt to 1 gigawatt. The reason for giving you 2015 guidance this early is we’ve got to make those investments now and you will see this in the OpEx numbers. If we meet this forecast by the end of 2015, we will have over 2 gigawatts of deployed solar and a historic growth rate of 98% for the last five years, that will be an amazing achievement. I am now going to pass it on to Tanguy Serra, our Chief Operating Officer.
Tanguy Serra - Chief Operating Officer:
Thank you, Lyndon. Moving to Slide 7, so we deployed 82 megawatts in Q1 2014 at the top end of our guidance. Residential deployments continued doubling year-on-year from 30 megawatts in Q1 2013 to 67 megawatts in Q1 2014. We also had a strong 50 megawatts of commercial deployments. Commercial deployments are somewhat lumpy and depend on inspection dates of larger contracts. As a reminder it takes on average one day to install a residential solar system and we inspect shortly thereafter, which means that residential deployment is more like a finely tuned conveyor belt, predictably delivering megawatts on a daily basis. Moving to Slide 8, our costs continue being below our long-term cost reduction forecasts. Interestingly three factors impacted our Q1 numbers. Firstly, Q1 has seasonally less installs as you can also see in Q1 2013. This is a result of relatively less sales over the Q4 winter holiday season versus sales over the Q3 summer fall season. However, as Lyndon alluded to given our strong sales momentum we chose the keep capacity through Q1 and absorb the additional expenses. As the second bullet point suggests, our like for like install costs were actually down. Second, this number includes sales and marketing costs incurred this quarter and the sales (generated) by these dollars will be deployed over next quarters. However, the denominator only includes deployed kilowatts in this quarter. As such, when our sales accelerate, the number goes up in spite of strong operating performance. Bob will elaborate on this point. Thirdly, this number includes the overhead associated with our R&D, technology, finance and policy teams which we will continue to invest in to support our 2015 goals. With less megawatts deployed, we absorb less of our fixed costs in Q1 versus Q4. Lastly, as a proxy to think about these numbers holistically we had the same dollars per watt costs as in Q3 2013 with the same volume deployed but with significantly higher bookings, which makes us feel good about our future volume growth and the cost reductions associated with those. Economies of scale are so important in this business. With that let me pass the floor to Chief Financial Officer, Bob?
Bob Kelly - Chief Financial Officer:
Thanks Tanguy. And as CFO I look forward to you pushing the increased volumes through the system over the next few quarters and lowering the all-in costs per watt. Beginning on Slide 9, let me give you an update on our financing activities. When we completed the industry’s first solar bond securitization last November it represented the final piece of the financial strategy which was designed to increase the sources of capital and drive down the cost of capital in this asset intensive solar – rooftop solar business. As a reminder, there are four main pieces of capital in the financial model. A construction revolver which is around – which is $200 million today, tax equity funds, aggregation facilities and long-term securitizations. We optimized the cost of capital considering our investment activity in concert with the cash generated from operations which are predominantly our long-term contracts and the required financing. Since the beginning of this year in a little over four months, we have completed in excess of $750 million in financings. We upsized an existing aggregation facility to $158 million early in the year and entered into a new $250 million facility led by Bank of America/Merrill Lynch. On the tax equity front, we closed three new or upsized funds including a first time investor, a Fortune 500 financial services company. New players are important in the business as traditionally we have had success in converting first time investors into repeat investors. As of May 7, our tax equity capacity was 234 megawatts. We continue to be very active in this financial arena. Turning to the securitization part, early April we completed our second securitization in the amount of $70.1 million. Although it’s really not a fair comparison and that the initial securitization was the first of its kind, the time from start to finish in number two compared to number one is like night and day. You can now do these transactions on a very fast basis. Now that there is couple of bonds in the market, I thought I’d give you some stats in the bonds to see what we’re doing here. Going back to my comments on the financial strategy in increasing the sources of capital and driving down the cost of capital as the dominant themes, I’ll start with size and price. A $54 million LMC 1 transaction priced at 265 basis points over the curve for an interest rate of 4.8% that was first of a kind of its kind deal. The second deal was larger at $70.1 million and the pricing improved to 230 basis points over the curve for all in rates of 4.59%. Looking at the stats on the slide, there is not a lot of difference in the two portfolios, LMC II has that slightly higher amount of resi at 87%, the weighted average power price was the same at $0.15 per kilowatt hour and both have FICOs exceeding 760. Both bonds were rated BBB plus by Standard & Poor’s. We are continuing with our long-term financing strategy in the capital markets and we started the rating agency process to our next securitization transaction, which is expected to be considerably larger than our prior offerings and consistent with our previously stated strategy to do deals in the $100 million to $200 million range. We expect to be back in the market when we obtain the rating. Let’s turn to Slide 10 and talk about the retained rate forecast. At the end of each period, we forecast the cash flow remaining to SolarCity after tax equity payments. What we call forecast retained value. The growth in forecast retained value follows closely the growth in the cash payments under contract, Slide 5 which Lyndon talked about earlier, which is currently at $2.5 billion. Forecast retained value increased to $1.3 billion as of March 31, 2014 with a retained value under contract portion as compared to the renewal portion increasing to 65% of forecast compared to 63% of the forecast and on December 31, 2013. Incremental retained value in the quarter was a $1.83 a watt representing the resi-commercial mix during the period. Combining our incremental retained value performance with the bottom end of the 500 megawatt deployment guidance for this year, you will see considerable economic value creation during 2014. Obviously, you can do the same math for the 2015 deployments. Let’s move on to the numbers for the quarter in Slide 11. Revenues came in at $29 million at the high end of the guidance. This reflects more installed megawatts. Megawatts were up 108% compared to Q1 2013 and a higher percentage of PPAs versus leases in the portfolio, 55% of Q1 2014 were PPAs compared to 47% in Q1 2013. Just as a reminder, leases are straight lined and PPA is based on production. Our OEM and our account management was less than a $0.01 a watt what resulting in a gross margin of 45% for the lease portfolio for the first quarter. Cash system sales were approximately breakeven on a GAAP basis in the quarter after backing out the contribution from non-recurring Zep sales. I want to spend some time on the sales and marketing and OpEx numbers as Tanguy talked about with a little bit more information on Slide 12. On an absolute basis, these numbers have been growing rapidly since we went public in late 2012 as a result of our investment growth. While these numbers are expense for GAAP purposes, the metric for evaluation is the incorporation of these numbers in the all-in cost of installation, i.e., dollars per watt. That’s why Tanguy is so focused on his Slide 8 on lowering the all-in cost per watt. A lower installed cost results in a higher ROI for SolarCity. The sales and marketing number will grow on an absolute basis considering the anticipated growth in deployments at our company. What you want to see is the number decline on a $1 per watt basis. As you can see on the chart when you use megawatts deployed as the denominator OpEx per watt has declined very nicely over the last four years and increased in Q1 when 82 megawatts were deployed. On the right side of the chart since the OpEx is predominately related to future installations, not deployments and using bookings as the denominator, the Q1 number declines to $0.59 per watt. Let’s wrap up the financial section with the discussion of cash flow for the quarter on Slide 13. We ended the quarter with just over $0.5 billion of cash, $520 million. On the operating activities the $23 million decrease in operating cash during the quarter was reflective of the higher loss related to the increased investments in sales and marketing, which resulted in the higher bookings. We invested over $192 million in solar assets in the quarter and completed $153 million of financing activity. Although there will be cash flow swings on a quarterly basis throughout the year primarily related to the timing of installations and financings, we expect to be cash flow positive as defined for 2014. I will turn it back to Lyndon to complete our presentation.
Lyndon Rive - Chief Executive Officer:
Thanks Bob. For Q2 guidance, there are a couple of areas I would like to highlight. We are expecting to deploy 105 megawatts to 110 megawatts that would make it the company’s largest quarter in its history. Operating lease revenue will be between $39 million and $43 million. We are expecting the (operating) lease margins to be between 50% and 55%. For our OpEx we are forecasting $100 million to $110 million. We are making bigger investments into sales and marketing. Based on these investments we are expecting to get the sales team to a capacity by the end of the year to 200 megawatts. This capacity is important to hit our 2015 install numbers. Our forecast for the year as mentioned is 500 megawatts to 550 megawatts and 900 megawatts to a gigawatt for 2015. As Bob mentioned we expect to be cash flow positive for the year. Operator, why don’t we open it up to your questions?
Operator:
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now be conducting question-and-answer session. (Operator Instructions) Our first question comes from the line of Philip Shen Shen with Roth Capital. Please proceed with your question. Philip Shen your line is live.
Philip Shen - Roth Capital:
Hi, can you hear me now.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, we can.
Philip Shen - Roth Capital:
Great. Thanks for taking my questions. I would like to start off with bookings in the last quarter you guys gave us a sense for what Q1 bookings might look like, can you talk to us about what Q2 bookings could be and how they are trending?
Lyndon Rive:
It’s trending well. We don’t want to get into the habit of forecasting bookings. The reason why we did it last quarters is of course we gave the updates, so late into the quarter. What really matters is what we install and so I would like everybody to focus on the 500 to 550 and then the 900 megawatt to 1 gigawatt.
Philip Shen - Roth Capital:
Okay. And NRG is making a splash with their focus on (Brazil’s) solar the competitive landscape is evolving rapidly, talk to us about what you guys see and how you expect landscape to evolve and how do you react to the changes out there?
Lyndon Rive:
So NRG that’s beginning to – in the solar industry for about four years and it recently acquired a company called Roof Diagnostics on the East Coast. So the – we haven’t read up across that much but we will continue to watch it. But the landscape has always been highly competitive. This always been hundreds of companies in the space. We are always watching this closely, but our close rates and our growth rate has continued to increase. And our goal is actually to gain market share.
Philip Shen - Roth Capital:
Great and thanks Lyndon. I will jump back in queue.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Patrick Jobin with Credit Suisse. Please proceed with your question.
Patrick Jobin – Credit Suisse:
Hi, thanks for taking my question and congratulations on a strong bookings. First question on incremental retained value per watt just want to get a sense of what drove just a minor decline, I guess down to $1.83 from a $1.88 last quarter, and it was mix or geography or is that roughly in the band that we should be kind of anticipating going forward and I have a follow-up, thanks.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, it’s roughly in the band that we should anticipate it does not depending on the states and the mix of commercial and residential. But that movement will vary from quarter-to-quarter depending on the actual bookings.
Patrick Jobin – Credit Suisse:
Okay. And then just on the financing strategy and then a simple regulatory question on the financing strategy with LMC II just looking at during the math was a megawatts is about a $1.48 of capital being provided with the all-in gas little over $2 just thinking about your funding strategy. Is it possible to structure the securitization on top of tax equity or how do we think about making up that gap between the $1.48 in the all-in cost and then just regulatory question on Arizona and the property tax out of discussion? Thanks.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, let me take the financing one first. The financing strategy is all – always to monetize the tax equity value in the asset we get – when we get an asset you really have a tax value and a contract value, Patrick is referred to the monetization of the contract value at about 48 a watt. The tax equity value usually comes in $0.80 to $2 range. So, when you add two of them together you’re well under – over your cost so that gives you a great deal of comfort when you look forward into business beyond the tax – where the market is going to go. When you look at the future transactions, the first two transactions will give related to 1603 grants and moving forward if we go back into deployments for 2013, future securitizations will have a tax equity component and I’m pretty confident that we can get that done in marketplace.
Aaron Chew:
The second part of the question in Arizona, so, there is no law that had changed in Arizona. In fact, the law has in place the last six years, but has recently happened is the interpretation of property tax on third-party finance is being interpreted differently this year than it has historically. So, we’re going to find it. There is no change in law – it doesn’t make a sense – it doesn’t make any sense at the interpretation to change.
Patrick Jobin – Credit Suisse:
Great, thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Brian Lee with Goldman Sachs. Please proceed with your question.
Brian Lee – Goldman Sachs:
Hey, guys, thanks for taking the questions. I guess first I’ll start on the OpEx metrics things for all the color to start off. I guess what I’m wondering is when you expect the operating leverage as you show you’re seeing in the $0.60 per watt on a book basis. What do you expect to get down to those kinds of levels on a deployed megawatt basis given the OpEx growth here and also expectations for faster deployed growth, and then I have a follow-up?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, it’s – as our growth rate decreases in that number will get closer to one another and so bookings – then would be an equal match. But at a 98% growth rate you’re always investing into the future.
Brian Lee – Goldman Sachs:
Okay, I get that, I guess Lyndon maybe a follow-up on that, went into at some point expect and maybe it’s a ways away where some of the incremental investments you’re making are, let’s call them more efficient, they’re resulting in more throughput through the deployed basis where you do start to see that leverage and they don’t have to march up one for one.
Aaron Chew:
Hey, Brian, it’s Aaron. Just let me chime in on it a bit, why it’s such a hard question to answer, the answer is all about the slope of growth. Once that slope comes down, and as Lyndon pointed out, your bookings are in line with deployment, then you see the leverage immediately, but it’s just the sharp slope of growth makes it hard. And so to make that call –it’s all about where you think that growth rate is going to be two or three quarters from now.
Brian Lee – Goldman Sachs:
Okay.
Aaron Chew:
Otherwise I think we come out and we see as probably guide to an OpEx for loss, but the last thing is also guide to a number we don’t have.
Brian Lee – Goldman Sachs:
The one thing I do want to make sure, you will definitely get operational efficiencies. So, by pushing more volume through your fixed infrastructure costs, the costs will come down and we’re seeing those efficiencies.
Lyndon Rive:
So you will see that efficiency, if you normalized the booking you will see that efficiency in the next quarter.
Brian Lee – Goldman Sachs:
Yes, I think that we are seeing the efficiencies on the bookings basis, I was just wondering if we might start to see play through as clearly on the deployed basis as well. But that’s helpful. Follow-up was just on Arizona, similar to Patrick’s question, how much of your Q1 installs and bookings were in the stay and also how much of your 2014 and 2015 outlook is tied to demand there, reason being, there’s clearly a number of challenges the solar industry facing out in that stage. And may be the last one on that point, is there way you can quantify how much of your Arizona business actually is potentially impacted, given it seems like some of this is only tied to the APS territory, thanks guys.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, the state itself has seen a decline in solar adoption. The state has had many negative things happening to it and which has since have increased the cost to the customer. So unless you have significant economies of scale, it’s really hard to offer a customer value proposition that make sense so, it is a challenging state. Now, we do have economies of scale and how value proposition is still very attractive to customers. In fact, our bookings in Arizona haven’t been – had never been higher. So, although with all these difficulties the only way to push through with an extra fees and costs is to get more volume and to get more scale. So, we’re actually going to continue to invest in Arizona and scan until there is anything further.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Edwin Mok with Needham & Company. Please proceed with your question.
Edwin Mok – Needham & Company:
Hi, thanks for taking my question so, start with full question on OpEx line, I think Lyndon you said that you will have with increased OpEx in the second quarter you expect to get capacity up to 200 megawatt of range right. If I take that commentary, though, that would imply that you probably need to grow your OpEx a little bit more right to meet your 2015 target. Is that how we should think about that the growth trajectory remained costs in the similar rate as to megawatt growth that we are seeing?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, just to be super clear on that. The goal is to make these investments, to get the sales team to 200 megawatt capacity by the end of the year. So, making those investments now, getting the team up and running, training them and so then that will follow through. If you use that, then it would put us in a 800 megawatt capacity for next year, but we start to grow into 2015.
Aaron Chew:
To add to that, Edwin, I mean, I think it is safe to assume that generally speaking OpEx on an absolute basis probably prices most quarters, at minimum flat. What do you want to see is obviously the leverage on the per watt basis, where the timing could impact it, but to answer your question, OpEx is probably still going up, I just don’t think you’re going to see growth at the same pace you did the last couple of quarters.
Edwin Mok – Needham & Company:
Okay. Just a quick follow-up on that then, as you guys strive to increase OpEx – thanks for providing the OpEx deployment numbers as a metric to think about it, right. As you drive increase OpEx, does that require you to increase monetization, maybe increase synchronization, and increase monetization to pay for that increase in comparable OpEx and would that have a negative impact with – on the retained value? And then I have a quick follow-up on the PPA that you mentioned.
Lyndon Rive:
No, I think that’s why when I talked about it a little bit was that the focus is on the all-in cost per watt, what is the installed cost. So, if your revenue curve continues at its phase and we drive down the installed cost. Your retained value increases and your securitization has an advanced rate actually decreases. You have a better credit with the securitization. So, that’s why the focus really is on maximizing the price per kilowatt hour on the top line and driving your down install cost down, the sales and marketing, the OpEx are a part of your install cost. Some of the challenges that we are talking about is what Tanguy said that it is paid today and you don’t see it until the future, but when you look at exactly what you are going to do, Edwin, it’s all on the install cost, the lower that is, the lower the securitization, the higher the retained value.
Bob Kelly:
Yes. Just let me add on top of that even with the investments we are making into our future growth, our all-in cost including those investments will come down this year based on the volumes that we will be installing. So, it’s you are growing at almost 100% and yet your all-in cost is still coming down.
Edwin Mok – Needham & Company:
That’s extremely helpful. Thank you. So one last question you mentioned PPA as a percentage of total increase to 55% this quarter, what drove that increases? Is it regional base figures of your market that you are playing in or is this – any kind of color you can provide on that?
Lyndon Rive:
It’s just a customer preference. To us, there is almost no difference, but to the customer, it is do you want a fixed monthly payment or do you want a variable monthly payment. And so ignoring the states like Arizona, we can only do a lease, but in other states, do you want a fixed monthly payment or do you want a variable monthly payment? If you want a fixed monthly payment, we do a lease. If you want a variable monthly payment, we do a PPA.
Bob Kelly:
I guess, adding to that, that’s what we talked about in the last quarter of the seasonality of the business as you get more PPAs, where it’s production based, it depends on the amount of sun during the quarter and the effect on revenues.
Lyndon Rive:
But our customers, over a year, appear to be indifferent with the nature of the PPA or a lease.
Edwin Mok – Needham & Company:
Great, that’s very helpful. Thank you. That’s all I have.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Vishal Shah with Deutsche Bank. Please proceed with your questions.
Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank:
Yes, hi. Thanks for taking my questions. I was just curious to know what the mix self bookings was by regions, what percentage of your bookings get from California and what your outlook is for retained value per watt in the booked business? And then I have a couple of follow-ups.
Lyndon Rive:
Sure. So we don’t breakout our states.
Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank:
But is it fair to say that the bookings are similar to your shipments mix with 50% being from California?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes. Actually, that’s probably a – our bookings should track our installs that normalizing for times. So absolutely, it should track one another, but what was the second part of the question?
Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank:
The retained value per watt in the book business?
Lyndon Rive:
Yes. So that was – as mentioned earlier, that will fluctuate slightly depending on the growth in different states as well as the commercial residential blend.
Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank:
Okay.
Lyndon Rive:
But the number that is right now is the capital number.
Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank:
And the average PPA priced in book business similar to what you are reporting right now or is it going down?
Lyndon Rive:
The overall average, I don’t have that handy right now.
Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank:
Okay. Can you provide us some....
Tanguy Serra:
Vishal, just to clarify you are asking is the pricing has changed in our PPAs like quarter-on-quarter?
Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank:
Yes.
Tanguy Serra:
Yes, I mean given the state by state basis, no, but obviously just the nature of them state mix shift will have a little change every quarter, but you are not seeing things dramatically in a market-by-market basis finding you.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes. I guess you see I don’t have it handy, but you will see the actual dollars to cover on the next securitization.
Vishal Shah - Deutsche Bank:
Okay. And then can you talk about your cost per watt trends, it might have some of the potential increase in module prices from China, what do you think your target is for the rest of the year? I mean, I know you had 25% cost direction last year. So are you able to provide any targets for this year in terms of overall cost reduction at system level?
Tanguy Serra:
At our scale, purchasing has not been a problem. We have not seen any increase in module costs. Again, we have a scale, which makes a big, big difference to buyers. We have got a number of very active conversations with Chinese and non-Chinese suppliers for long-term volume equipments in the low $0.70 per watt for modules, which headed us very against any tariff issues. So we feel good about that. And as I said, the operating cost on a like-for-like base will be continuing to decline quarter-on-quarter and we expect that to continue. As Lyndon said, we continue driving more volume to our fixed infrastructure or dollars per watt continue coming down.
Vishal Shah – Deutsche Bank:
So, can we assume a 20% reduction in system costs this year or it could be more than that?
Lyndon Rive:
So we are going to come out with a cost reduction and we’re still working on few things to finalize this. For now, I’d stick to our original forecast of 5.5% a year, but once we have this all nailed down, most likely be – let me hold off on the timeframe. We will come out with a cost reduction and hopefully get it out before the next quarter.
Aaron Chew:
Vishal, assuming the timeline on the tariff stays the same, we probably would be doing that next year at the latest, but there is chatter that that gets pushed off out there.
Vishal Shah – Deutsche Bank:
Okay, I appreciate that. Thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Pavel Molchanov with Raymond James. Please proceed with your question.
Pavel Molchanov – Raymond James:
Thanks for taking the question. Your willingness to raise guidance for this year and put out a pretty aggressive number for next year ago, is that a function of your thinking that the size of the market is going to be larger than you previously thought or is it a question more of you guys are taking share?
Lyndon Rive:
So, the market is incredibly big so, we’ve always thought the market is 42 million homes in the state that we operate.
Tanguy Serra:
And growing with new home construction.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, so, it’s never been a – as the market size increased. Potentially, it opens field. What we have decided to do now, is invest more into growth and capture those customers with the sales team really performing well, we then going to grow the operational team behind that and so the formula is working so we’re just investing more into the formula. And knowing that we can pull the systems through as why we increased the guidance for this year and next year guidance is just the mathematical piece. If you end the year at 200 megawatt run rate that puts at 800 and you’ve got to go next year too. So, it’s – it will be strong.
Pavel Molchanov – Raymond James:
Okay. Then on your decision to enter Nevada, pretty small market I know historically. Other than the obvious sun light patterns, what are the key reasons that you sought to make a move there?
Lyndon Rive:
Essentially one thing I do want to clarify, when you’re talking about the energy market, almost every market is a massive market so, in terms of technology or software, you may knew Nevada is a small market. Nevada is a big market for us and to-date, we’ve only cost over 100,000 customers so, they way more than 10,000 customers in Los Vegas. So, it is a big market. So they have a market with fantastic sun exposure and awesome housing starts. The houses seem to be relatively new, so, the installation cost should be lower with a good sun exposure.
Pavel Molchanov – Raymond James:
Appreciate it.
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Krish Sankar with Bank of America/Merrill Lynch. Please proceed with your question.
Andrew Hughes - Bank of America/Merrill Lynch:
Good afternoon, guys, you have Andrew Hughes on for Krish. Thanks for putting out the 2015 target that was very helpful. Just curious as you look that far into the future. Does your assumptions around how cash sales versus leases and finance systems change at all as we get near closer to the step down in the ITC and any interest among your customers in taking more advantage of that and owning systems rather than financing them?
Lyndon Rive:
That’s a hard question to answer and we are testing a few things to see what the outcome looks like there, but for now assume the majority of the volume is leases and PPAs.
Andrew Hughes - Bank of America/Merrill Lynch:
Got it. And any – I mean is it too early to start thinking about – or is suppose – a securitization the primary answer to thinking about how you might look to financing as you sort of get towards 2016 you might have some systems and funds that have their systems interconnected on a basis where you are straddling that sort of 2016/2017 timeframe or is it too early to think to start looking that far in advance?
Bob Kelly:
No, I think the model, what we are trying to do is drive down the cost of capital in the securitization is a very size of capital market as well as the low cost. We continually want to drive down the premium for this new asset class and hopeful that will increase or decrease I guess as we approach our next securitization, but if you look at the model, Andrew that we setup is as you do quarterly deployments as the assets get up and running, you are move them to aggregation and into securitization market. So what you want to do as you get to 2017 is drive down your install costs and your cost of capital where you are competitive without an ITC or reduce the ITC.
Andrew Hughes - Bank of America/Merrill Lynch:
And just one last, sorry, go ahead.
Bob Kelly:
Yes. And then one other thing that in terms of financing of revenue see if we can get cross-funding to help with the financing as well.
Andrew Hughes - Bank of America/Merrill Lynch:
Great. And then just one last one on the – fair to assume a similar geographic breakdown as we are looking at today in the 900 megawatt to 1 gigawatt in 2015 or any change there just given some of the policy dynamics that have been discussed so far and that are in play in other markets? Thanks.
Lyndon Rive:
From what I see right now, I don’t see it changing much. All these – most of the states will continue to double them. States like Oregon are the probably the ones that, that will not in fact that’s the only one I think they can think of it will not. Operator?
Operator:
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Paul Coster with JPMorgan Chase. Please proceed with your question.
Mark Strouse - JPMorgan Chase:
Yes, hi. This is Mark Strouse on for Paul. Thanks for taking our questions. I think we just wanted to get your latest view on California AB 327 just relating to the rate design process and then the headroom versus the net metering capacity?
Lyndon Rive:
Sure. So, two questions in there. The rate design process is still an end from what they are looking at is collapsing, potentially collapsing the tiers, bringing the two bottom tiers up and then only having two tiers instead of three or four. And when we look at that, we actually think it’s going to increase our market size, because today, Tier 1 and Tier 2, the customers don’t see much savings or any savings or anything at all. If they do that then our customers – homes with smaller energy bills will see savings as well and then we can address them. And even at the new tiers that we are seeing our PPAs or leases will be in the money, so the customers will see savings. And then in terms of your second quarter the headroom for the net metering in California, I just wanted to make sure that everyone understands. In California there is no net metering cap, so the caps have been removed in California. Now for lack of better words net metering won at Durham has a 5% limitation and based on volume forecast depending on the utility that 5% should get hit in late 2015, 2017. Then there is active discussion in what do the new rate looks like and then what’s the cost and benefit of net metering and the PUC is going to determine that and then that will be the new net metering rate.
Mark Strouse - JPMorgan Chase:
Got it. Okay. Thank you. That’s helpful. And then one last quick follow-up, just clarifying for us what you mean when you refer to 200 megawatt capacity for the sales team?
Lyndon Rive:
So we want to invest into the sales team so they can ramp up to 200 megawatt, but there is a delay from when you can train the sales team from when the bookings come in. Commercial has a long delay. The commercial has from a person – from the time the person joined to when the person makes its first booking is probably around nine months. So there is a lag period. We are going to whatever we can to increase that lag – reduce that lag period so we can get to those numbers faster. And having the team at that full capacity by the end – sales capacity by the end of the year is definitely achievable.
Mark Strouse - JPMorgan Chase:
Got it. Okay, thank you very much.
Aaron Chew:
To clarify, the 200 megawatt, he means quarterly.
Lyndon Rive:
Yes, quarterly, yes.
Mark Strouse - JPMorgan Chase:
Right, yes, yes.
Aaron Chew:
Just to make sure that (indiscernible).
Mark Strouse - JPMorgan Chase:
Yes, okay, thank you.
Operator:
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, at this time, there are no further questions. I would like to turn the floor back to management for any closing comments.
Lyndon Rive - Chief Executive Officer:
Everybody, thank you so much for the time. We are excited about continued momentum and looking forward to building energy company of the 21st century. And that’s it. Have a good day.
Operator:
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today’s teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.